if college is so bad why not skip it and join the workforce immediately?
>>1849727Unfortunately I feel like that won't happen en masse, many people get spooked or spook themselves into going to school
no one is happy but no one has power to change things
you really think the average joe is fine about the way the world is going?
>>1849734fuck it
I never went to uni and i regret it
>>1849725Petit-porkies have hope to enter upper class unlike working class.
Propaganda and multi-generational sabotage of the education system leading most americans to be unable to even think critically at all
>>1849725At the end of the day, we only have one life. So there is a big fear of mutually assured destruction if class war flares up.
>>1849727Credential cartels.
>>1849743"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."
Because college is the surest, or least unsure, way of climbing up the social ladder and joining the middle-class.
On the same note I don't understand why so many alleged communists are concerned with making college cheaper or whatever, when this runs contrary to the aim of proletarianization.
>>1849750Which degree is best for those not strong at math?
>>1849754Have you tried call centers? They're insanely easy to get. I was close to getting hired but had to reject bc I ran into transportation issues.
My dad worked at one too without college
>>1849753You dont go to uni for degrees, you go to have fun and meet people
Just pick what makes sense to u
>>1849758its more accurate to say that you dont go to uni to learn, you go to make contacts and get a degree
>>1849753as a programmer i practically never use math despite all the math courses in uni
>>1849756My job is quite enjoyable relatively. Its simple and it keeps me active. It also has good hours, where most jobs dont offer 40h/week
But theres no career here, its just wage slavery
Im hoping i can do something artistic in the meantime
>>1849760"Contacts" seems like a cold way of saying it
>>1849761Based art anon
I love drawing too
>>1849763I like drawing but im not good at it
I hope one day to be a musician and maybe a filmmaker
I dont have delusions of grandeur but i have typically been creative in my life
>>1849762thats what they are, people to help you land on a good job
>>1849765That's pretty cool
Good luck
Americans to this day maintain a sense of superiority.
>muh crisis
Don't matter, we have trans athletes!
>>1849750>On the same note I don't understand why so many alleged communists are concerned with making college cheaper or whatever, when this runs contrary to the aim of proletarianization.No, the acquisition of knowledge, especially radical thought, is not contrary to proletarianization. Also, accelerationists and religionoids are capitalists and they get the bullet, too.
>>1849725I cant accept it. Which is why I did my best to get a scholarship to Japan and scape wage slavery. Only problem is Japan is racist and xenophobic, so I may end up going back.
In this world theres nowhere to scape to. Everywhere is hell, just different flavor
>>1849777Doesn't Japan have a huge wageslave problem?
>>1849776>acquisition of knowledgecome on, this isnt even the main function of university as much as they pretend it is
>>1849780yea its called "capitalism"
>>1849790Anyone worth his salt knows that you rebel, not revolt. The notion of an anarchist "revolution" is nonsense, and I'm sick of pretending it isn't.
"That's just the way things are."
>>1849783I hear the problem has spread.
>>1849725>colleges are debt slave machines but parents will still push their kids into going. You guys dont have any access to public free universities?
>>1849803Wut? Fuck no lmao the hell are you talking about.
>>1849725Because
>>1849793. Americans, as a group, buy into capitalism, and its companions, liberalism and legalism, in a way that I'm not sure people living elsewhere can even comprehend. Your average American has it in their head that the way things work here is the only way they can ever work, and if the system fails them, it's either their fault, an unfortunate necessity for The Only Viable System to keep on chugging, or both.
>>1849803>You guys dont have any access to public free universities?lol, lmao
But the real answer is no. The student protests of the 60s and the "problem" of "an over educated proletariat" convinced the bourgeoisie to attack the university system and shit has only been getting worse since Reagan. Every year state subsidies to education is cut, forcing a rise in tuition and also in student loans. They're huge moneymakers now, especially big unies with a popular sports program. Now they're just like every other business, with big management bloat and decisions made by boards of directors aimed at maximizing profits, exploiting students, and destroying worker power.
>>1849776School and college are terrible for the "acquisition of radical thought".
>>1849793>>1849805Let's not pretend being content with the status quo is solely an American, anglo, or even solely western thing.
>>1849760>as a programmer i practically never use math despite all the math courses in uniThen you probably could have gotten your job with just a bootcamp and/or portfolio. I use probability and calculus for monte carlo simulations at work, and I'm grateful for the structured introduction I got in college. The average webshitter (I've been there) only needs enough data structures and algorithms to not write horribly inefficient solutions.
>>1849814i work in devops…
>colleges are debt slave machines but parents will still push their kids into going.
Colleges are only debt traps to the petite-bourgeois who must pay their way in thanks to public debt at the proletariat's expense. Proletarians, who have high IQ, get in for mostly for free in America. College is the only hope, otherwise the proletarian must work and die at backbreaking and subsistence wage construction, Mcdonald, or walmart.
The problem is all of these petite-bourgeois failsons speculate both in regards to their ability and the value of the degree, not that it is hard to access. These failures cannot get scholarships. Even under socialism, the petite-bourgeois will be price gouged by state monopoly to make way for the proletariat.
>Rapidly rising homelessness
A democrat is president, so it doesn't matter if american homelessness rate is at recorded high.
>inflation, etc
>But everyone seems to be ok with it or at least tolerant. Why?
It's because a democrat is president. Joseph Biden is these people's ice cream loving grandfather. We had BLM under Trump and, economically speaking, things were so much better for the lower classes back then.
>>1849810It's not contentment, it's the acceptance of the system's terms, even if you hate them. Look at
>>1849817, for instance. He dislikes the way things are now, but he still thinks that there's a meaningful difference between Trump and Biden, and that vooting in the other guy is the path to change.
>>1849817>Even under socialism, the petite-bourgeois will be price gouged by state monopoly to make way for the proletariat.But in the DotP there is competition, socialist competition. When you cant compete, the workers with most sucess teach the other workers how to do better, so everyone can work in harmony. No one is left bebuns.
Also there should not be any pety bougeoisie in the DotP, but you get the point, the "state Monopoly" competes with itself and the capitalist world Powers.
>>1849805The propaganda pretty much begins as soon as an American can crawl. American society is good and everywhere else is corrupt and bad. The education system really drives this home also. Socialism and communism were "good ideas" but "against human nature" and killed a bajillion people, which is why those corrupt, backwards societies fell apart. American democracy might not be perfect, but it's the best in the world, as evidenced by all the disruption and corruption you see in other countries. Strangely, everyone believes that American politicians are all also corrupt, crooked liars, but somehow they're still better than, say, Mexican politicians.
But basically the working class is atomized and demoralized, and many are so ignorant and harassed that the only improvement they can imagine is just to get a slightly better paying job. The idea that they themselves can work to improve the world is almost totally foreign to them, so the only thing they can put their faith in is either the church, or those corrupt politicians. Otherwise the extent of their hopes is that maybe they'll be left alone, and maybe their kids will have it better.
>>1849822You're describing most people in every single country today.
>>1849782>>1849810I guess that's true in the age of libgen, hmm
>>1849816Not much math there, but a lot of predicate logic
>>1849823Stalinism is just trans-capitalism. Look at how much cope this guy has to make up to cram his shitty hero ideology into communism
>>1849817Where the fuck do you get your knowledge of communism?
>>1849823You too. The DotP's main task is expanding revolution to the rest of the world.
>>1849824>American society is good and everywhere else is corrupt and bad.I'm in the global south and the country works like this too. Nationalism is everywhere.
>>1849824>Strangely, everyone believes that American politicians are all also corrupt, crooked liars, but somehow they're still better than, say, Mexican politicians. I have a cousin from Mexico who more or less believes that.
Well it’s not like there’s even an appearance of an alternative.
>”But Communism!”
Communists can’t even agree on who’s a worker or not and half the stuff they say are bizarre screeds about how nightly bombing runs over our heads are good for us.
>”Then Anarchists”
I sure like the idea of not having infrastructure and being enslaved by the local warlord but I’m gonna pass. Yeah I’m sure those community defense squads that don’t exist will help.
>>1849822There is meaningful distinction between Trump and Biden. Biden is like Trump, but worse in every way
>>1849828I read actual Marxists, not david graeber or Richard wolff
Corruption is an interesting subject really. There are different types of corruption. The U.S. has a lot of "access money" corruption which are high-stakes rewards offered by elite capitalists to powerful officials in exchange for privileges. This is essentially legalized btw.
But there's less "speed money" which is usually what people mean when they refer to "bribery." There are politicians who get convicted for this, but for example, I've never experienced a cop even suggesting the possibility of a bribe – you'd probably have a bad time for even suggesting one to a cop. But giving out cash on the side is necessary to get a lot of things done in, say, India.
https://oecd-development-matters.org/2020/06/25/unbundling-corruption-why-it-matters-and-how-to-do-it/
>>1849859>>1849857>>1849853Fool, Richard Wolff is a Marxist, a great teacher of it
>>1849827>Stalinism is just trans-capitalism. Look at how much cope this guy has to make up to cram his shitty hero ideology into communismI am not making any of this up, read "soviet democracy" and "Emulation and Labour Enthusiasm of the Masses"
"Socialist emulation must not be regarded as a bureaucratic undertaking. Socialist emulation is a manifestation of practical revolutionary self-criticism by the masses, springing from the creative initiative of the vast masses of the working people. All who, wittingly or unwittingly, restrict this self-criticism and creative initiative of the masses must be brushed aside as an impediment to our great cause.
The principle of competition is: defeat and death for some and victory and domination for others.
The principle of socialist emulation is: comradely assistance by the foremost to the laggards, so as to achieve an advance of all.
Competition says: Destroy the laggards so as to establish your own domination.
Socialist emulation says: Some work badly, others work well, yet others best of all—catch up with the best and secure the advance of all."
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1929/05/11.htmhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/chernenko/sovietdemocracychernenko.pdfhttps://ia804703.us.archive.org/22/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.261348/2015.261348.Soviet-Democracy.pdf>>1849828>The DotP's main task is expanding revolution to the rest of the world.For that to happen, there is the necessity of the survival of the DotP, so it could be said that "the main task of the DotP is to survive". There can be peaceful competition between the DotP and the representative capitalist democracies, as long as both work "under conditions which will permit ever closer economic and political cooperation. This is in effect a proposal to consciously control the course of social advance by using the democratic methods of example and persuasion instead of drifting into war."
>>1849828>I'm in the global south and the country works like this too. Nationalism is everywhere.In nationalism, there is a thread of baseline communism.
>>1849853>I read only pious Christians, not critical commentators
>>1849847You talk to most Americans and they'll tell you that they see their enemies as living in D.C. You talk to most Communists and they'll tell you your enemies are your neighbors and your grandparents. Most people want unity, not division.
>>1849876the enemy is bourgeoisie, none of our neighbors or grandparents are bourgeoisie
>>1849879Speak for yourself my grandma is a slumlord
>>1849876>Most peopleProjecting your dreams onto the majority, five yard penalty
>>1849882Gram gram's gotta go.
Isolation.
At least that's my issue
>>1849879>the enemy is bourgeoisie, none of our neighbors or grandparents are bourgeoisieSee Marxists will say this to anyone "not in the fold" and then when you spend not even five minutes in Marxist spaces, you encounter anything from Haz huffing that Baristas aren't real proles to Settlers-posting. It's like how evangelicals sometimes say they aren't a "religion" but some kind of "personal relationship with Jesus" but then screech about social issues like gay marriage or abortion; what kind of personal relationship needs to be handled in federal elections?
Honestly I wish there was a bot to compare how many times people on this board actually talk about politicians versus ranting about whole categories worth of people.
>>1849743I'm already destroyed what the fuck
>>1849876>You talk to most Americans and they'll tell you that they see their enemies as living in D.C.Yet they keep voting for them…
>>1849938Yeah, states assign false debts to their members to entrap them, same as any other capital.
>>1849938To a certain extent it's voting against the people they like the least.
>>1849938Not like it would change things if they stopped voting for them
porky has learned how to train prole pretty well
>>1849961>>1849955Well, they'll keep getting the same results. Americans are cattle.
>>1849974I mean yeah kinda but it's not like it's exactly easy to get millions of people together and organised to throw out the politicians.
>>1849824>>1849832>Strangely, everyone believes that American politicians are all also corrupt, crooked liars, but somehow they're still better than, say, Mexican politicians. It's not that they are fundamentally different but that in America, politicians now have a legalized form of corruption in lobbying, revolving door jobs, paid speeches, book deals, etc which has effectively crowded out the more conventional corruption as seen in Mexico from cartels.
>>1850061Sure, but it's just about the perception and the unexamined logic of
>all politicians are corrupt >but American political corruption doesn't produce dysfunction like Mexican corruption does>this is because of race/the founding fathers (pbut)/god
>>1849725Because people are retarded, they'll just blame minorities or some shit instead of the obvious problem
>>1850061I know a guy who lives about half of his time in Mexico (but he's a gringo and might be insulated from a lot of that) and he believes the U.S. is just as corrupt but it's legalized here. But then my cousin from Chihuahua was like "Mexico is really corrupt and it sucks." But she's a working-class girl and the experience of direct corruption might be more in your face.
But I dunno.
Fun story. There used to be… might still be… big radio towers on the Mexican side of the border colloquially called "border blasters" because Mexican regulations were much looser, so they could blast at much higher wattage into the U.S., and some English-language stations in the U.S. would run on their frequencies (possibly lower cost as well). But they were required to read Mexican government announcements periodically (by law), so some guy driving down the highway in Arizona would be listening to country-western music and then during a break, American accented voices speaking English would do a skit where a woman says "The mayor of my town said he would cut off my utilities if I didn't vote for him in the coming election! What do I do????" and then a guy says "Government officials threatening to withhold services in exchange for votes is a federal crime! Please report that to the National Anti-Corruption System! Fighting corruption is the duty of our republic!" And the guy in Arizona listening to this is like what the hell lol
>>1849727Here in Germany you either go to Uni or do three years of 600-1000 Euro slave labor called "Ausbildung" for a job that has shit pay and/or bad working hours.
>>1849725Because when you believe the alternative will be worse than the present, you'll do anything to maintain the pain you've grown accustomed to. Sure the ship is sinking, but at least the water isn't in my cabin yet.
>>1849725the treats keep flowing…
>>1849805Do people really mostly buy into legalism? There's a parallel petite-bourgeois pro-capitalist mindset that is basically "if i can break/bend the rules, that's how I'll make it out". I don't know which is more prevalent, but the latter seems very popular as well. But then again maybe I consort with lumpen too often idk.
then again, lumpenization is partially a choice, the choice to refuse competition for slots in a body-destroying and soul-deadening job, to instead try to make enough money to bypass all that somehow by selling drugs or robbing. In that way it's a very authentic proletarian ideology
They aren't okay with it they just dont know why its happening and blame scapegoats, where I am it's foreigners and the government. IDK about you but everyone I know is bitching about the economy, the cost of living, the explosion of homelessness, etc.
Whats even more absurd is that people are still choosing to bring new life into this world.
They feel entitled to have families yet they dont have the skills or meams to raise them.
>>1851213same, where I am people are complaining about the homeless (other people, not themselves or their family), the cost of living (meanwhile they still make do, they just adjust their expectations down), being broke (but they still make enough money to keep the lights on, they use food banks and charities to fill the gaps and they stay fed and housed), the economy (but only in order to talk about voting for Trump), and so on. I don't know I genuinely believe that enough working people are just doing well enough that they aren't compelled to start seriously seeking alternatives - and those alternatives are currently not seeking them very strongly either! sadly.
>>1851258my coworkers constantly advocate beating children into obedience for the smallest things, even just having an independent personality. It's extremely depressing. And so many people are openly addicted to something, and so many are not wanting to stay where they are but are seeking "bigger and better" (but not, you know, fundamental social changes). The culture is so individualist.
>>1851270actually I want to add what the homeless are talking about: most I've talked to either plan on remaining homeless and making it work, or they have a scheme to get some good money quick with little effort and then get housed and turn it into a business, one unique guy I talked to kind of took care of lots of the people around the camps in the area and he had like a whole 10 step plan on how he was going to get housed, stay housed, get his girlfriend out too, and everything. But he never made it so far as I saw.
In general it seems like the people who actually are dealing with the full ramifications of the economic hardships going on right now have various bourgeois-aligned ways out for the most part. Either via charities, philanthropy, etc. (which is surprisingly available), via illegal means, or just via taking on more hours (can include making young kids take care of each other - I say this because the family is kind of a reserve of time that can be eaten into by the bourgeoisie, it's where labor is spent to grow the next generation of workers, making it a place where labor can be taken for short-term gains and long-term difficulties)
but again - revolutionary alternatives, as well as a strong culture of mutual aid, care, solidarity, just doesn't exist and it's kind of our fault for not doing well enough on that front and showing people alternatives.
>>1851258I doubt they're "entitled" to raise families, so much as doing so because that's the cultural plan laid out for them, propagandized, threateningly implicated at many junctures throughout one's youth.
>>1851270>beating children … even just having an independent personality>The culture is so individualist.Or is it clannish or tribal?
>>1849725the people have no say in public policy so they can't reform the political system
they're afraid of fascism so they won't drop out of the political system
they're afraid of dying violently so they won't overthrow the political system
the only option left for most people is to become a lib who gets defensive the minute anyone makes demands that are too "unreasonable"
>>1851279ok good point, I'll have to qualify that. They're individualist in the sense that they live within a sort of narcissistic, social darwinian, perverse social structure where everyone is expected to be a competitive individual, but at every level there is someone higher who each individual is equally expected to both conform to as an ideal, and obey. These dual dictates make everyone (who buys into this) both leader and follower, self-expressing individual and conformist, rule-follower and rule-maker. It lends itself to absurdities like displays of obedience up front and subversion (for personal ends) behind the back of authority - but what doesn't lend itself to contradiction is the ultimate ideal of the authority who is obeyed by all, to which everyone strives.
So not individualist in the anarchist sense, or in some philosophical sense as if they believe deeply in an egalitarian ideal of everyone being allowed equal individuality. They are particularly for themselves as individuals, and no other individual. So yeah also it's clannish and tribal, but not in a way that lends itself to a solid group definition or lasting norms, just in the sense of requiring obedience to authority for its own sake (well, because "or else").
>>1851324everyone has a fear of dying violently. the problem is that Americans have zero desire to kill violently
>>1855687Wrong, Americans love killing people it's mostly the other workers, schoolchildren, and themselves
>>1849725because I'm a coward who understands that if I join LE REVOLUTION i will likely be a rank and file soldier in a trench rather than a lenin writing theory and giving rousing speeches, or a cheka officer shooting POW /pol/yps in the back of the neck.
>>1855690this is why accelerationists are retarded. they think making the people more desperate will bring about the revolution. perhaps. but the revolution will be better organized if the people are better organized. More unions, more co-ops, more mutal aid, more concessions, more social democracy, this will mean the proletariat has more free time to organize. The bourgeoisie are so well organized because they have all the leisure time in the world from living off of the surplus we create for them. But we're expected to be miserable AND activist at the same time .
>>1857573the closest the west ever came to socialism was the pre-Thatcher UK and social democracy.
>>1855690>>1857573>we'll get communism if we make the petit-bourgeois largerWhat? This is some real Malthus shit that was refuted by fucking Marx back in the day. That's not how capitalism nor communism even work.
Before you get on my case I'm not saying we should make the proletariat more miserable (technically the proletariat is already as miserable as they can be) but reformism is useless class collaborationist bullshit too.
>More unions, more co-ops, more mutal aidNone of these amount o jackshit by themselves and are only useful if they are done with the goal of uniting the proletariat and abolishing capital in mind.
>more concessions, more social democracyLmao…
>>1857579>we'll get communism if we make the petit-bourgeois largerwho are you quoting you dishonest little shit
>>1857576?! The closest we came to communism was the (early) USSR and the wave of (failed) revolutions in the early 20th century. What the fuck does electoralism even have to do with it?
>>1857579>None of these amount o jackshit by themselves and are only useful if they are done with the goal of uniting the proletariat and abolishing capital in mind.did I say anything to contradict that?
>Lmao…ok. less concessions. more misery. muh acceleration.
>>1857580Your very same post is talking about increasing welfare, reforms that only strengthen the petite-bourgeoisie and increase social mobility, absolutely nothing to do with the movement.
>>1857582Nothing to do with "accelerationism", which I consider a meaningless meme anyway. The problem with this belief is that it ends up being an obstacle to the very organization you claim to advocate - you lead the working class on all sorts of goose-chases, detracting from its energy and strength by enticing it into the marsh of tax reform and other middle-class crusades.
Capitalism cannot be reformed away, especially on a global scale. It depends entirely on the existence of an immiserated proletariat.
>>1857581USSR isnt the west
>>1857676Well, Lenin hinged entirely on a revolution happening in Europe, but that too failed and in turn doomed the USSR too. That was the closest "the west" got to revolution.
>>1857682not really close at all then. you may as well include may '68 in france, italy '48, greece, the german revolution, even the easter rising although thats a stretch.
>>1857691Indeed, it's a sad state of affairs for the whole world.
>>1858288
Back and still as much an incoherent retard as ever.
>>1858319I think I speak for basically everyone when I say I wish I knew less about you people but you've made this more or less impossible. I wish I didn't have to live with the image of some balding leftist 30-something ironyposter snickering to himself over Simpsons memes in my mind.
>>1849725>colleges are debt slave machines but parents will still push their kids into going. Petit porky problems.
>But everyone seems to be ok with it or at least tolerant. Why?Most workers feel that there are no alternatives for capitalism besides North Korean style concentration camp communism.
>>1857582>you lead the working class on all sorts of goose-chases, detracting from its energy and strength by enticing it into the marsh of tax reform and other middle-class crusades.I never mentioned "tax reform" or "middle class crusades." Stop being blatantly dishonest. I just pointed out that a working class that has already won some social-democratic concessions and isn't beaten down has more free time to organize, read theory, attend meetings, militarize become part of a revolutionary cadre etc… whereas if a prole is working 60 hours a week, has 3 kids, is in huge debt to college, and is so poorly educated that they can barely read, let alone understand marxist theory, doesn't have health care, etc. etc., they are going to have trouble organizing even for the preliminary struggles of forming cooperatives, unions, etc., let alone the larger revolutionary struggle. All these prelminary struggles compliment the larger struggle. A union can become bourgeois, corrupt, etc. but it can also become subordinate to a revolutionary party. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not whatever dishonest characterization you have here about "middle class crusades."
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