What is the material explanation for why intellectual elites hate Israel yet support Ukraine tooth-and-nail?
For context: I’m a college senior at an elite university in NYC. Even though pro-Palestine protesters here have been heavily repressed the vast majority of faculty are pro-Palestine/anti-Zionist and very openly so. However, they are also extremely pro-Ukraine which is something I don’t understand. They keep saying Putin is an evil dictator and Ukraine needs to be supported in order to “save global democracy” or some bullshit. Yet, “save global democracy” is the exact same excuse Zios use for why westerners should support Israel. If they can understand how “democracy” is a farce when it comes to Palestine why can’t they also see how it’s a farce in the Russia/Ukraine situation?
It’s bizarre how run-of-the-mill progressives like my profs sound a lot like neocons from 20 years ago. I’m only 22 but I do activism with people a lot older than me and they’ve made this point as well. “Spreading western democracy” was the excuse Bush used to invade Iraq. Now it’s used by DEMOCRATS and PROGRESSIVES to launch war against Russia. What gives? Also, why are cultured elites the ones sounding the most neocon now?
>>2171455No this fight has been had and it has become more pro Palestine over the years.
Said for example was active in the 70's.
>>2171378>Yet, “save global democracy” is the exact same excuse Zios use for why westerners should support Israel. Well, those are ideological reasons, which are usually some kind of mystification that obscures what's going on. It's like how everyone these days is fighting Nazis. I'm not saying there aren't Nazis. But both Hamas and Israel call each other Nazis. There are Ukrainians who will say "Russian fascists" and "Rushists" (or something like that? It's supposed to connotate racism and fascism.) Russia, of course, is "denazifying" Ukraine. But is that the real reason? Is that a materialist explanation? That's propaganda.
You could also flip this around and ask why there are right-wing elites who support Israel and don't like Ukraine. BTW, it was reported today that Israel is lobbying the U.S. to work with Russia to keep Russian bases in Syria as a way to check Turkey, and Israel doesn't like Turkey. I don't have answer to your question BTW but I think you're asking the right question.
>>2171378because israel vs palestine is seen through white colonizer vs browns lens while ukraine vs russia is more like ww2 to them.
no material analysis just vibes and vague historical allusions
>>21713781. What’s your major?
2. You do realize Israel recently voted against condemning Russian aggression in Ukraine, right? Or that Bibi and Putin are good buddies, right? A Russian victory is an Israeli victory regardless as to what Russiaboos and liberal Zionists tell you.
>>2171554>actually defending Russian electionsjesus christ
At least be a fucking man and be openly pro-authoritarian, nobody buys this weasely garbage except propagandists.
>>2171550You're not getting what I'm saying. That's what the Kremlin says about Ukraine. The Kremlin *says* Russia is a democracy. It's like everyone speaks in a similar kind of ideological language now.
>>2171521Sure. Or don't be surprised if Putin makes a deal at some point.
The question is what are the interests of the Western, Ukrainian and Russian ruling classes. Here, the most controversial question is the Russian one (because people who support Russia are a solid percentage of anons here, but leftypol is actually divided on this). There's also the debate over imperialism. But I view "national interests" and "spheres of influence" as a loaded concept, or at least a reflection of various class interests if you want to look at it from a Marxist POV… IMO.
It's like "what the ruling class actually does when it rules." But one theory that I find interesting from people like Volodymyr Ishchenko is the conflict between transnational capital (think of Silicon Valley tycoons who don't like the state and want to build floating sea-cities independent of any nation-state or whatever – and in alliance with "liberal" professional-managerial classes) and Russian and Ukrainian capitalists who depend much more on the state and "Bonapartist" leader to survive within global competition while reaping insider rents from within their territory.
>>2171453this tbh, palestine and anti zionism has been one of the fight of the radical and even mild left since a very long time, its also a pretty clear cut colonial affair, and nobody defend colonialism anymore.
in contrast, ukraine is recent, heavily propagandized by our media since the start, and putin was already demonized since a while and did invade, taking the role of the aggressor (nobody relevant in the west really cared about the separatists republics, the US backed ukraine coup and the nazification, and all those immediately became off limit as they became "putin propaganda")
>>2171559Ukraine literally has been every single social democratic, socialist or otherwise leftist party.
>>2171562>authoritarianCompletely meaningless weasel word.
>>2171568Shameless hypocrisy.
see
>>2171544 >>2171557>Make team called "IM GOING TO MURDER YOU AND YOUR FAMILY">Make attempts through diplomacy and even joining them a few times, obviously not being able to get trough them>"IM GOING TO MURDER YOU AND YOUR FAMILY" team and your neighbors are mutuals as of late>"IM GOING TO MURDER YOU AND YOUR FAMILY" has a historic tendency of trying to expand their membership>Chip at your neighbor collateral slowly to disable them from doing so>"WTF THIS IS UNPROMPTED"Read my essay:
>>2171467Ukraine had options but decided being an Useful idiot was better.
Sorry, Ukraine wasnt the villains, but they were perpetrators of their own victimage.
>>2171467meh, asking a robot obviously give shitty answers only informed by the mainstream western liberal media and parroting their bullshit (ffs it didnt even mention turkey fucking with greece and somehow doesnt think being stuck between nato and warsaw pact was an "existential threat")
for one, ukraine was kinda non aligned before maidan, playing both side to extract maximum concession. But there was a pro west coup. And then seeking "security guarantees" and nato membership only raised tension and escalated into war.
Even then they could have simply accepted being finlandized and would have been fine.
>aligning with nato wasnt the best optionyou think?
>new bloc with all post soviet statesnonsensical, most of them were already fully US bitch and rabidly anti russia, you cant make a neutral bloc with this
>turkey played a role in causing the cuban missile crisissilly me, I thought it was the US fault for putting nuclear weapons there, not "erratic turkey"
>ukraine no excuse for miscalculationtbf, when you're a puppet state set up for a proxy war, you dont really have the freedom to pursue an independent foreign policy
>ukraine not in nato is turkey faultwtf is this stupidity
Im mad I got baited into reading that garbage with boobs. Experience has now proven me that people grabbing attention with asses are superior and lead to more interesting reads.
>>2171607>>turkey played a role in causing the cuban missile crisis>silly me, I thought it was the US fault for putting nuclear weapons there, not "erratic turkey"Before I reply to all of this do you realize Turkey consented to hosting Jupiter missiles during the Cuban Missile Crisis?
This entire post just screams "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND COUNTRIES HAVE NO AUTONOMY" even though the entire example of Yugoslavia and the non alignment submits fly all over that premise?
>>2171562you're a retard if you dont think putin has genuine support from his population. The man is more popular than most western leaders.
>but democracy is when the neolibs in power are fully on board with the US led western empire! who cares if the people in charge and their actions are supported by their population, thats not what democracy is about!
>pro-authoritarianoh you're a retarded lib
>>2171610>you realize Turkey consented to hosting Jupiter missiles during the Cuban Missile Crisis?yes, although not really "during" given its what started it, and ussr then decided to put missiles in cuba as a response
I would still blame US first, given its their missiles and their decision to put them there. I fail to see how it was "erratic" from turkey, being under the nuclear umbrella was literally the point of being in NATO.
>This entire post just screams [STRAWMAN]ok ignore all the points made retard, your shit take would be impossible to defend anyway
>>2171611are you an actual fucking retard? "intellectual elite" means the "intelligentsia", the people in high positions of academia and media
it doesn't mean they have an "elite intelect", i swear some posts on this site read like it's the poster's first week speaking english
>>2171378Intellectual elites/college professors tend to be liberals since their interests are represented by the Democrats, so they just take the opposite of whatever positions Trump holds.
In this case, the GOP is pro-Israel and pro-Russia, so liberals are pro-Palestine and pro-Ukraine.
Very simplistic answer but that’s just what it is.
>>2171627>I would still blame US first, given its their missiles and their decision to put them there.It doesn't matter who started what, but that both parties consented. Utterly irrelevant.
>I fail to see how it was "erratic" from turkey, being under the nuclear umbrella was literally the point of being in NATO.I genuinely don't understand your point. That does not exalt the fact that putting missiles was a move that made the USSR retaliate and thus bad in retrospective. Which is more or less irrelevant to modern day Turkey's schizophrenia which makes them an unreliable ally. Unless you want to make the argument that they are consistent and an asset rather than a detriment.
>ok ignore all the points made retard, your shit take would be impossible to defend anywayYou are making your own opinion worthless.
If you are trying to make the case that turkey isnt reliably unreliable and why that is a redflag for any country to make even the smidgest of attempts to have a local autocratic block in case the retard retards out against you then I don't know what to tell you.
>>2171602>Saying that Russia invaded as a reaction to NATO expansion isn't a moral judgement, it's just a statement of fact.The war has resulted in NATO expansion (also as a matter of fact), so I don't think that was particularly rational. But I do think NATO expansion is a threat to the Russian ruling class' interests – because it would mean the elimination of them as a class.
What I do think is that the type of superstructure that exists within the post-Soviet space is relatively fragile. It's basically Bonapartist and succession is a problem – a point of vulnerability around presidential elections when color revolutions tend to occur (i.e. local uprisings combined with pressure from transnational capital, both directly and indirectly via Western "civil society" NGOs). That is a threat to the local capitalists who require a strongly personalistic and "authoritarian" (if you like) leader and make their money via monopolizing natural resources within their own territory.
This is also why they tend to be socially conservative and nationalistic. They want to draw a line around resources that come out of the ground and say "this is ours" and others can't have it. Transnational capital tends to be socially liberal because that breaks down barriers to its expansion.
But back to Russia, what are the rules for Putin to transfer power? It's not clear. There's no longstanding regular tradition of this, and he has held power for 25 years. Does he have an articulated ideology or party? (The ideology is more coherent now, but Putin is not technically a member of United Russia, which is not really a party, it's a sack of people hanging onto the Kremlin.) Clearly, he does have support among a lot of people because he provides "stability." But the same "stability" has been contradictory because it fostered the growth of professional middle classes who became the base for Navalny's movement in Russia and who seek integration into Western institutions. Like, say, if you're a software programmer from Moscow or St. Petersburg, it's in your material interests to freelance your services to Western companies – not having that cut off. You want MORE of that.
This is also why corruption is such a big deal to these people. Navalny was an anti-corruption crusader. Why these NGOs also focus on "anti-corruption." It's not that Russian natural-gas oligarchs (or mega-millionaires, whatever you want to call them) are not corrupt, it's just a symptom of a form of class rule that is tightly interdependent with the state, through which they acquire assets (often by holding political office), and which protects them and their natural resources by ringing them with armed men.
It's not that any of these color revolutions have solved the underlying problems though. The people who came to power in Russia since the USSR collapsed also want to keep their property or access to directorships at state-owned companies in the natural resources sector, and they need to be able to transfer their assets to the next generation because they're getting old. So the war provides an opportunity to do political and economic restructuring. In a brutal sense they just killed Navalny, which solves that problem. It helped Putin secure another term without any pesky protests. They want to secure (with guarantees) from the West their "natural rights" to a sphere of influence. But within that zone are resources and the source of their wealth and power.
>>2171378The simple answer is that "leftists" are not dialectical materialists. They don't see the world in terms of systems despite their insistence on saying "systematic issues" a lot and climate change pushing them to that idea. There are class reasons for that, of course - most of them are not working class, the ones who are don't have the appropriate class consciousness. These posts are great examples:
>>2171538 >>2171611What is imperialism? It's just vibes and not a global economic system or a position in that system. Big country bad. I have not read Lenin. I wonder what he said about the european union, surely it's not the most imperialist organization he could have imagined. Eurointegration is just wholesome people of UKRAINE (all caps to show how much I respect them unlike p*zzia) deciding that they belong to the master race and rightfully deciding to end the existence of inferior sovok puzzians, yes crimea is occupied despite polls from even western organizations saying that the referendum has majority support, yes of course we will demand reparations and tribute and lordship over p*zzia including siberia like the ubermensch we are. I mean please support UKRAINE we are being invaded for no reason at all, we are smol bean, ignore all our propaganda that is not tailored towards you
>>2172073Autocorrect is interesting parapraxis in itself.
Glory to the Ukraine.
>>2172161> The Soviet Union and the Non-Aligned Movement, Faculty of Philology, University of Belgrade> Conclusions:>> Summing up the general results of this chapter, we can state that in the initial period of the NAM existence, it was perceived by the Soviet leadership as a positive factor in the international relations system. Moscow immediately saw NAM as an ally in the general anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggle, in the confrontation on the international arena of racism and Zionism, appreciated the anti-militarist potential of the Movement. At the same time, the “most favoured nation” regime on the part of the USSR extended to those non-aligned countries that developed in the spirit of socialist orientation. On the most topical issues of world politics and military-political conflicts, the positions of the Soviet Union and the NAM coincided or turned out to be very close. At the same time, disagreements over the situation around Afghanistan turned into a serious problem in relations between the USSR and the NAM. In the framework of the discussions at the UN General Assembly on the world politics key problems, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the bulk of the countries participating in the NAM voted with the Soviet Union. Moscow also defined and coordinated the overall strategy of relations with the NAM on the part of the Warsaw Pact Organisation and the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance. During the period of detente and in the 1980s great importance on the part of Soviet diplomacy was attached to the interaction with the NAM in the struggle for a new, more just and democratic economic order. The “Gorbachev” period became, in fact, the apogee in terms of the Moscow’s and the Movement’s approaches convergence. After the USSR’s collapse, interest and attention to the activities and the factor of the NAM in the international relations system dropped dramatically. In recent years, under the influence of geopolitical motives, the Russian Federation has noticeably intensified its relations with the Movement, as evidenced by the request for observer status in the NAM in 2020. >>2171378>What is the material explanation for why intellectual elites hate Israel they support israel
>yet support Ukraine tooth-and-nail?they also support ukraine
malformed question
stupid thread
NEXT!!!!
>>2171544man baby leftists are really incapable of understanding critical support
<wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh you support wussia against NATO?!?!?! but they're CAPITALISTS??!?!?!?!?!
<wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh you support hamas against the IDF? but they're ISLAMISTS?!?!?!?!?!?!yes, idiot.
>>2171378Probably preaching to the choir here but if we're talking about "intellectual elites" as in professors or activists or even politicians with a philosophical slant- i'd argue it comes from a last-ditch preservation of a progressive liberal status quo. To elaborate:
1. Palestine is pretty clear cut- it is a nation of people who have been colonised, deliberately genocided
with intent, and is subject to appartheid by an entity which continously violates international law.
Palestine does not have the backing of any internationalist superpower- nor are they a proxy of them. They have little to no actual government that truly represents their interest- instead you have a collection of factions ranging from nationalist to communist fighting for an independent secular palestine.
HOWEVER This it isn't necessarily a radical position. The world, for decades has known that what israel is doing is not only illegal, but downright immoral and a violation of international law, and post October 7th This is a position held by UN representatives, Ireland, Norway and Spain- who now advocate for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Radical support would be analysing the conflict through a decolonial communist lense- the elites "support" an independant Palestine on the proviso that it's done within their liberal "internationalist" sensibilities. Keep in mind the ICC has warrants out for Hamas leaders as well.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149966 To re-iterate the "intellectual elites" hate Israel based in part to violations of international human rights law, which Israel has done for
decades.
But as a side tangent- what do you get when these "intellectual elites" are communist professors? There's condemnation for Hamas, sure, but there's hardly any venom for the PFLP or the DFLP. And even so- these professors and students are losing their jobs- in part to the Israel lobby crying wolf about "anti-semitism". The intellectual "elite" is thus in an odd position- in the sense that he both seeks to challenge but also maintain the status quo- but he can't have both. Something has to give- but the source of his woes comes from the Israel lobby who seeks to have a monopoly on trade and intellectual institutions to maintain its degree of financial and cultural hegemony. He must chose then to become an "intellectual" or an "elite". Look no further than folks like Norm Finklestein or Cornell West, who have either been disbarred of voluntarily left their academic institutions due to them being extensions of a liberal system of governance
2. As for them being pro-Ukraine, I'd argue there's some overlap in the sense that:
i. They see Russia's invasion and annexation of Ukraine as a violation of international law. Keep in mind, the ICC has an arrest warrant out for Putin.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-andii. From my own observations I have seen solidarity for Ukraine based more so on the Ukranian people as opposed to that of the Ukranian government- but again- there is a degree of overlap. The war has lead to thousands of people being displaced and turned into refugees, it's understandable why some may sympathise.
iii. They see Ukraine as a "democracy" in Eastern Europe and Russia as "le big bad authoritarian" never mind Zelensky has repressed the communist party in Ukraine, acted as a proxy of NATO, and has suspended elections all the while doing nothing to challenge Ukraine's socially conservative policies.
The pro-palestine and pro-ukraine position that's held by "liberal elites" is that of a more progressive form of liberalism- the ideal of maintaining liberal democratic bourgoise democracies and challenging Israel and Russia through the basis of international law- but their "anti-impeiralism" only goes as far as there. For instance, The PFLP and the DFLP are some of the most effective fighters against Zionism, equal to that of Hamas, but you don't see mainstream media sites cover their military gains- I'm genuinely convinced they leave them out of the coverage because nothing challenges faux progressive liberalism more than a principled communist resistance with a vision- it's easier to view the resistance as a group of "blood thirsty anti-semitic islamists".
That's my two cents.
>>2171378>What is the material explanation for why intellectual elites hate Israel yet support Ukraine tooth-and-nail?If Israel loses and is dissolved and becomes Palestine again, liberalism will not only survive but will probably be enhanced given that apartheid is anti-liberal.
If Ukraine loses, liberalism loses
It really is that simple. Intellectual elites exist to protect liberalism.
>>2174138wait were the prisoners just living like roommates in that guys house? thats what it sounds like. also
>Hamas was coordinating with "allies" on U.S. campuses and that "HAMAS WAS GOING TO ENSURE THAT THE UNITED STATES, AS WELL AS JEWS AND ISRAELIS, ARE HATED EVERYWHERE."why would hamas need to do that? us and israel are already doing it to themselves.
>terrorist paraphernaliaa flag, just a flag. ok
Look up the Chabad-Lubavitch connection which unites the Israeli far-right and MAGAts.
Myth #1:
>Russia is fighting against ZOG and Israel!In reality, Russia's interested are at this point largely aligned with Israel's interests.
https://www.reuters.com/world/israel-lobbies-us-keep-russian-bases-weak-syria-sources-say-2025-02-28/https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-shift-israel-votes-against-un-motion-reaffirming-ukraines-territorial-integrity/Myth #2:
>Ukraine losing makes Zios seethe!No it doesn't. The Jews want to redirect all funding to Ukraine to Israel instead. Likely they're gearing up for a war with Iran and don't want the US to have other military considerations.
Myth #3:
>Donald Trump makes the Zios seethe!Wrong again. Trump and his children are closely linked Chabad and the Russian-Jewish mafia. The Russia connection was actually real along, only that the liberals left out the detail of the very Jewish nature of this connection.
There's a new political axis forming with the USA-Israel-Russia, and the thing that binds it together is Chabad-Lubavitch who are some of the most notorious religious Zionists. This is the actual, real Zionist power in the world today, not some liberal Zionist actress like Gal Gadot or Zionist hip hop producer like The Alchemist.
>>2174585Ah that's it, the source rejection.
That's why they have no clue what's going on, because they attach credibility to Western Propaganda outlets while dismissing non Western ones.
>>2175774It's entirely understandable for the average Joe to have opinions like this.
For the supposed intellectual elite of the west to take this opinion?
It demonstrates that they are no intellectual elite.
>>2174521Liberal Zionists (think: Hen Mazzig and Roots Metals from IG) are very pro-Ukraine and pro-European. Far-right religious Zionists like the ones you see living in West Bank settlements tend to be pro-Russia but are a lot more covert about it. Many times they'll deny Putin is a bad guy but won't go so far as to say the invasion was justified.
It should also be noted that most first-generation immigrants in Israel were born in Russia (Russian Jews and some ethnic Russians).
>>2171378>If they can understand how “democracy” is a farce when it comes to Palestine why can’t they also see how it’s a farce in the Russia/Ukraine situation?Did you get into university with chatGPT, or something? It should be immediately apparent that this is an apples-to-oranges situation on the basic recognition that Ukraine is not a component of Russia, whereas Israel is arguably an apartheid state where most of its Palestinian occupants are second-class citizens at best.
So, when certain people support Ukraine but hate Israel, a lot of it is because they see Israel as racist… and if Israel is racist, it follows that what they're doing is ethnic cleansing at best, and genocide at worst. In contrast, Ukraine is just a geographically fucked country whose history is sufficiently unlucky that it shares a land border with Russia, which has irrational designs on its national sovereignty.
>>2177259>land border with Russia, which has irrational designs on its national sovereignty.And therein lies this basic bitch interpretation of geopolitics that underpins why the "titans of thought" see Israel and Russia as the same, it's because both intend to integrate some territory and *actually* call it theirs rather than just performing some kind of extended "peace keeping" operation where you station soldiers near where all the tasty resources are.
That actually, Kiev's plan was to unironically culturally genocide the very Russian eastern regions of Ukraine by outlawing Russian in public spaces, ban parties not sufficiently anti-Russian enough, displays of non-Ukrainian nationhood, etc, is irrelevant to the basic bitch interpretation of imperialism and genocide because that territory already happens to be recognised as Ukrainian, they can't be annexing what is already officially recognised as "their" land and thus they cannot be kicking "their own" people off of "their" land by shelling "themselves". If there's a sudden rush of civilians fleeing the shelling and hostile political situation to Russia, well then that's just like Israeli settlers fleeing back to Isreal from the homes they stole in Palestine, good riddance.
>>2177259So true, sister. These puzzians really should be wiped off the face of the earth like the vermin they are. Only genetic slaves could ever be against eurointegration since Europe is everything good and the asiatic hordes are by definition evil.
Yes, this is exactly what you're saying if you don't oppose the maidan regime's existence. Open several Ukrainian twitter pages and use the translator feature. You can also scroll past 2022, the rhetoric will be the same. But you won't since "true leftists" like you couldn't give less of a shit about reality.
>>2171544Why I will never actually support Russia and why I fucking despise seeing that Russian flag and fucking eagle.
That said, Ukraine are actually way worse in this regard, at least Russia doesn't shit all over the memory of Soviet citizens and heroes like Ukraine does.
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