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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Hello, /leftypol/!
Welcome to the Reading General Sticky! This thread will be dedicated to the sharing, discussing, and general banter about various leftist thinkers, theories, and political outlooks.

Don't forget to check out >>>/edu/ for more reading and discussion!

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Common Right Wing Talking Points Debunks
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38 posts omitted.

>>2560148
https://libgen.la/edition.php?id=149903887


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How do you reconcile that this revisionist is responsible for China being the only hope left for socialists? What does China‘s success change about Marxist thought?
108 posts and 28 image replies omitted.

>>2525146
Whever i read a Xi quote, its in the bob's burgers voice now
(i know thus isnt actually a xi quote lol)

>>2565726
You can just admit you lost the argument anon, it's fine we won't laugh at you. No need to bring out your thought terminators

Chinaman are pragmatic people, they deal with the necessity born by reality

>>2522744
>China being the only hope left for socialists
citation needed

>>2565892
I buy it. Whenever I look into Chinese socialism it‘s always
>We need X so we will do Y
<5 years later
>We now have X after we did Y
There isn‘t much abstract theory involved


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>Europoor

It's becoming increasingly clear that the majority of proles in Europe and North America are being brainwashed by their phones into believing immigration is the biggest issue in their countries. I have largely ignored this issue, as I don't really think it matters but then, last night, there was a lumpen riot in Dublin against an IPAS centre in which a foreign national who had been denied asylum and was told to "self-deport" had apparantly raped a 10 year old girl who was under state care. I usually don't believe a lot of the lies told about "migrants" online but this case makes me feel particularly uncomfortable.

It was a clear failure from the neoliberal Irish government and it's institutions that allowed something like this to happen. Why wasn't this man deported immediately after being denied asylum? Too expensive, apparently. Why was this man allowed to be in a situation where he could sexually abuse a child? Why is this man in my country in the first place? Ofc, the Free State institutions are keeping silent on it, pissing off people even more.

So, how do leftists feel about immigration and the current asylum process? Obviously, I understand this wouldn't be an issue if western corps weren't raping the third world but I also think there is a discussion to be had. Are open borders in the current world really working? Would they work post-capitalism? How do you feel about immigration, positively or negatively?
323 posts and 49 image replies omitted.

>>2565886
>Any business that can't find workers for the wages they're offering (cause they're shit) is undergoing a defacto strike, the business should either increase wages to compete for workers, or invest in new machinery so they can produce more with less men.
Machinery is what's largely invested in, but you're forgetting the role of the reserve army of labour, which will take up jobs as unemployment drives up, particularly when no other means exists. Usually at best you only see a lack of employment in one industry, while another drives up.
>To import an immigrant to do these shitty jobs workers allegedly don't want to do (as is the usual justification for mass migration), is to break this defacto strike
The only way immigrant labour can "break" the state of things is if there are laws in place that allow work for below a given wage and if the workers coming in are non-unionized. To argue instead for collaboration with the bourgeoisie to "fight" immigration, an action which will only bind the fate of the proletariat to them indefinately, as opposed to unification with migrants in order to deny them form the bourgeoisie, shows exactly where your loyalties actually lie. By refusing to work with in the context of what capitalism is, and instead trying to rework capitalism into a position where you hope to negotiate the bougeoisie into taking an action which is nonsensical to it, you make any kind of future movement impotent.
>But mandatory unionization is impossible!
But trying to build revolution while giving the bourgeoisie a double blackmail to use against you is? Somehow fighting migrants and the bourgeoisie (as opposed to using said migrants to your own benefit against the bourgeoisie) is a possible long term winning battle for you?

>>2565901
>instead for collaboration with the bourgeoisie to "fight" immigration
more like immigration restrictions should be forced upon the bourgeoisie whether they like it or not

>dude just unionize the strikebreakers/immigrants bro
yeah ok lol

>>2565898
>workers attempt to physically prevent porky from bringing any scabs across the picket line to break the strike
The issue is that you can apply this to marginalized groups native to the country as well, say in the case of the US and black people. The solution isn't just a blanket block, that will inevitably fail. The solution is to build solidarity with black workers so as to add them to the growing revolutionary mass, denying them from being put in a position where they will take the job due to economic pressure from the bourgeoisie. The failure of many
early automotive strikes due to distrust and outright abuse by white workers towards black workers in indicative of how simply trying to remove "potential scabs" isn't a successful strategy.
>effectively creating an unorganized strike action where no one will work until conditions improve, workers attempt to implement border controls so porky cant just import a strike breaker across the border to break the defacto strike
That's not what happening, but regardless, this also doesn't work as it's not workers implementing border controls, it's bourgeoisie at the levers offering the same wages in exchange for not having migrants come over. By arguing for border control as opposed to fighting for worker organization and unionization, we place the worker in the hands of the bourgeoisie. We are re-shuffled into a fight against the possible migrant, as opposed to playing with the reality of what we are dealt using what cards we have to fight against the bourgeoise. We end up in a race to fulfill the mythology of a "closed border" (as if "open borders" were even a thing to begin with) and become a slave to an unwinnable fight that concludes in a loss to workers everywhere. We become our own "strike breakers" and the only way to prevent that is to take the only path forward, and unite with migrant, demand the same rights for him, and so refute his, and our, immiseration.

>>2565908
>more like immigration restrictions should be forced upon the bourgeoisie whether they like it or not
By what means? Who controls the border? And if you have the means to do make the bourgeoisie do this, why are you not demanding mandatory unionization instead? Workers rights instead? Revolution instead? It's because you do not actually care for revolution, you care that you aren't being cut into the imperialist pie.
>dude just unionize the strikebreakers/immigrants bro
>yeah ok lol
So says every sucessful communist revolution and revolutionary the world over, so yeah. You'll go over high hill and batter anyone you have to in order to convince the bourgeoisie to reverse the course of capitalism, but at the prospect of committing even half that degree of effort toward unionizing workers, you shirk. All the energy and steps to get there, and you could have energized the people toward revolt. Instead? Opportunism, spinelessness, a liberal program of "reform". What do believe in? What are you convictions? Is it communism? Or is it recovering the temporary comfort you feel denied in a failing system, so your grandchildren can feast on your failures like generations two past did to you?

>>2565898
>its a defacto unorganized strike
No its not because a strike is something a group of employed people do in an organized fashion to receive concessions from their employer. Im not "defacto on strike" at the 900 000 000 other jobs that I didn't apply for when im working or when im unemployed.


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"turns out conservatives and reactionaries are just dumb after all" edition.

news:
- Your Party is suing itself, more at 11.
- The SNP and Plaid are going to form a "progressive alliance" somehow
- The government's going to do a switcheroo by raising income tax slightly and cutting national insurance to balance it out. (But they won't - follow this to its logical conclusion and scrap NI entirely)
- They're also considering cutting VAT on energy bills (which is the least efficient way of lowering bills you can imagine)
- The board of deputies asked Aston Villa for free footy tickets. In a worrying sign of rising antisemitism, Aston said nah.
- Labour is falling behind the Greens in the opinion polls as their strategy of copying Reform drives away their already-begrudging supporters without winning over any Reform voting reprobates. Nobody could have predicted this.
232 posts and 47 image replies omitted.

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>>2565514
if the model of the law ought to be based on personal consent, then why is legalising heroin going "too far", exactly? if two adults want to buy and sell heroin, why should the government criminalise either party?

>>2565874
one generally ought to think in terms of trade-offs and cost-benefit analysis rather than in terms of rigid philosophical principles.

>>2565877
so its not just about consenting adults, then?

>>2565884
i am not sure this conversation passes a cost benefit analysis so i'm out

>>2565905
Kek

>>2565874
Drugs have historically been used to cripple exploited communities with revolutionary potential such as China and black neighborhoods. Theres no good reason for a state to allow citizens to shoot themselves in the foot instead of enlisting them in productive labor, and with hard drugs, these are mutually exclusive long term. You retarded liberal


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🗽UNITED STATES POLITICS 🦅
<Ronald McDonald Trump Edition

🏈 💵Thread for hellish discussion of the Dying Burger Reich and the pedophile Hitlerite-Zionist clique of the American bourgeoisie and its iron grip upon the greatest bigliest country McGod™ ever gave McMan™ on the face of the McEarth™🌭 🍔

>Things are going to continue to happen in the stupidest ways possible that no one really takes seriously, where every single person compulsively reacts with either cynical grifting or useless panic and appealing to a political system of liberal democracy that is entirely dead and irrelevant. things will continue to get gradually worse, more people will lose their jobs and homes, the most destitute and marginalized will be oppressed by state-backed domestic terrorism, but the decay will simply continue and everyone who isn't actively being imprisoned and forced into slavery or outright exterminated will simply ignore it and maintain a cognitive dissonance of believing a civil war is happening while living their lives in a mostly normal fashion. The death of the United States will be slow, painful, and insufferably annoying and stupid.
<Death to the scourge of the earth, the destroyer of nations, the father of fascism, the enabler of ethnostates, the treatlerite tyrant, the protector of pedophiles, the exporter of ecocide, the captain of capitalism, the king of coups, the sultan of sanctions, the emir of the embargo, the autocrat of austerity, the doge of deregulation, the baron of busting unions, the prince of privatization, the lord of loan sharks, the patron-saint of proxy wars, the sponsor of settlers, the guarantor of genocides, the invader of islands, the Divided $nakkkes of Amerikkka™

🛠️ Strike Tracker ⚒️
https://striketracker.ilr.cornell.edu/

🇺🇸 Deeds of the Burger Reich 🇺🇸
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/us_atrocities.md
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/ovPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
500 posts and 137 image replies omitted.

>>2565896
That's a false dichotomy. The reason why it's mixed is because there was no larger support for the small guerrilla groups. They temporarily got away with some assassinations, ambushes, robberies but eventually they got encircled and killed by a larger force.
Solution is to get larger support from the population first. But that's too much work for Felix. He would rather a few people here to go postal and then be killed off unceremoniously.

>>2565900
>>stuck in 2019
try not being stuck in social democracy yourself

>>2565857
>the arms race in the ME has only benefitted US companies
At the expense of israeli national security and ambition

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>>2565906
i don't expect a successful revolution will ever work without the expressed support or acquiescence of less radical socialists

>>2565904
>That's a false dichotomy
What's false about it? The first anon said that felix criticizes people here for not doing anything/following succdem politicians and influencers and that he praises weathermen, IRA, etc. I ask what's bad about that and you say it's the mixed results of those groups, but the other side of the argument, the succdems, has no results at all and really most political strategies have mixed results one way or another. Im not in favor of pointless political violence like with the Weathermen or RAF either, but I don't really see it as bad, just ineffective in its aims. I guess advocating for people to go postal is pretty shitty I'll concede that


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TOMORROW NOTHING HAPPENS
CHILE ELECTION 2025
<The spectre of nothing is haunting America
The candidate of the communist party who is watering down to appeal to milder socialdemocrats and others is leading the polls. Next to her are 3 rightwingers, all bastard sons of Bolso and Drumpf
80 posts and 11 image replies omitted.

>>2564996
Something a bit like that happened last election IIRC.

>>2564764
>You got a niga named bukkake?
no he's white.

>>2563371
Meh it is a deeply divided legislature. Hung congress.

im chilean and this is not okay. Communism is for bigger countries like mexico and brazil not little ones like chile. What are you hueones thinking?

>>2565816
>communism is when you vote


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Previous thread: >>2507158

Links:

Previous Thread Archives
Thread 1 https://archive.ph/ROnpO
Thread 2 https://archive.ph/f29Po
Thread 3 https://archive.ph/GZj20
Thread 4 https://archive.ph/ZHfse

Youtube Playlists
Anwar Shaikh - Historical Foundations of Political Economy
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTMFx0t8kDzc72vtNWeTP05x6WYiDgEx7
Anwar Shaikh - Capitalism: Competition, Conflict and Crises
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB1uqxcCESK6B1juh_wnKoxftZCcqA1go
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
96 posts and 36 image replies omitted.

>>2565278
idk, i think smith anon just posts here about whatever he is reading and has taken an interest in jevons lately, that is my charitable interpretation

>>2565390
well jevons has become popular lately for his paradox that technological improvements in efficiency can lead to an overall increase in the consumption of a resource, not a decrease, and is popular in the context of AI being a bubble and stealing jobs.

and mr smith is obsessed with robot powered UBI and saving capitalist from communist revolution.

this of course ignores the TRPF and that robots dont produce value.

and he is way beyond deserving charitability at this point, but he keeps "according to jevons" as if this is some kind of important thing everyone should know and care about. so basically hes laundering techno-fascist nonsense

>>2565403
>and he is way beyond deserving charitability at this point, but he keeps "according to jevons" as if this is some kind of important thing everyone should know and care about. so basically hes laundering techno-fascist nonsense

well yeah, he's a self admitted centrist lib but he's not going to save capitalism from communism by posting any more than we're going to defeat capitalism by posting.

>well jevons has become popular lately for his paradox that technological improvements in efficiency can lead to an overall increase in the consumption of a resource, not a decrease, and is popular in the context of AI being a bubble and stealing jobs.

I don't even see how that's a paradox. isn't it obvious that automation increases consumption of resource? A man with a chainsaw can process more wood than a man with a steel axe, and a man with a steel axe can process more wood than a man with a stone axe. This is why advancements in technology that increase the speed at which we process natural resources usually end up getting supplemented by other advancements in technology that increase the efficiency of our resource usage. Like miniaturization of transistors for example allow for more computing power to be packed into smaller and smaller chips, which is the principle by which Moore's law operated for decades. We're constantly working with changing situations.

>this of course ignores the TRPF and that robots dont produce value.

I forget what his response to this one was. Something about Marx making up anthropocentric rules I guess

>>2565418
the idea was that an increase in the efficiency of steam engines would result in less coal use, but instead the increased efficiency led to the deployment of more and more steam power driving a demand for more coal. so as computers and AI become more powerful instead of needing less computers to do the same work we will increasingly use computers for more and more things,

presumably they think the increased demand overcomes infinite growth in a finite universe and you dont have to address the contradiction of private ownership

to me it just seems like an adjacent argument to the idea that while new technology like the loom destroys seamstresses it creates job for loom repairs, which as i said ignores the trpf, and of course also ignores that the transition to a service economy relies on imperialist extraction that boomerangs back around to the domestic economy eventually as capital returns to suck the remaining juices that are left in the husk they previously destroyed

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>>2565252
after gossen, he is the founder of "marginal utility" theory. his influence is absolutely immense.
>>2565390
i provided a review of his work "the theory of political economy" (1871) in one of the older threads, which people clearly never read. he's interesting to read since his findings are compatible with the classical labour theory of value, hence him and marshall are dubbed "neoclassical" economists in their defence of ricardo (e.g. keynes' general theory, japanese preface).
>>2565403
here's a question: why are you even in a political economy thread when you are intentionally ignorant of economic history? you are proudly idiotic, claiming to not know or care about jevons, as if this makes you superior. so, why are you here?


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I haven't really been much of a marxist throughout my life because of its somewhat "continental" nature. In essence my thought system has been articulated around the idea of non-domination/non-coercion, similar to most neo-republicans nowadays. Yet, whilst discussing with a friend of mine yesterday, she described marxism as essentially that, except with a broader picture than the individual. Thus my question is, how do you respond to these critiques without falling into some form of left-libertarianism or kantian ethical (like Rawls or Pettit) system ?

>LTV
From my understanding, alienation occurs because the worker doesn't enjoy the full value of his labor, determined by his labor. Without going into economic debates about which paradigm is true, how do you resolve the LTV being arguably false with the alienation incumbent on the workers ? Alternatively, if labor is presumed to not have innate value, how does alienation come about ?

>Historical materialism
Similarly, how does the marxist critique interprets the potential errors that Marx made. If class conflict is the sole driver of history, how do you explain Napoleon or feudal reconfiguration. Furthermore, if the superstructure can affect and influence the base structure, doesn't this negate the broad "justification" of a revolution and that the roles of production aren't everything in a society (perhaps this lies on me, but I hardly see how marxism can be non-work centered).

>Falling rates of profit/crisis theory
It is my understanding that Marx argued that capitalism would inevitably result in crisis which would weaken the working class and express its contradiction. However, the keynesian framework allows for a more robust understanding of these crisis aswell as an integration of consideration for the workers in its system. Similarly, the TRPF has been disproved by Okshio's theory and has been somewhat proven empirically false. If both are true, what requirement is there to fundamentally change system and free ourselves from the free market "constraint" ?

>Empirical cases of "marxist-leninist" states & the ECP
Lastly, how do MLs adress the issue of domination in marxists societies. Essentially, why haven't marxist utopias produced long-lasting results and individual satisfaction ?
And if it's purely due to historical conjuPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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>>2565531
>alienation
the theory of alienation is present in marx's 1844 manuscripts, and does not refer to "exploitation", but rather, the social abstraction of labour as such. that is to say, when labour is taken as something in-itself (rather than part of nature), then we establish society in relation to the subject of "labour" (e.g. class society). exploitation also occurs via alienation, since capital is "dead labour" which oppresses "living labour". thus, economic relations are the relations of labour to itself; in possession and dispossession. marx's solution is to abolish the category of labour itself.
>exploitation
the exploitation of labour also doesnt refer to the product of labour which is owed to the worker (since to marx, the wage is the value of labour), but rather, that the surplus labour is categorically dispossessed by the employment contract. the worker does not own his labour by right, but rather, he owns his "labour-power" (capacity to work) and sells it as a commodity. if you reduced the working day to only what was necessary, exploitation would not occur.
>if labor is presumed to not have innate value
to marx, value is not an "innate" or natural relationship, but is a social relationship defined by commodity exchange. thus, only commodities have value, and attain values in being purchased for money.
>falling rate of profit
this theory appears to originate in the work of adam smith, as recorded by the historical rate of interest, which decreases over time. smith stipulates that profits may only fall in relation to higher wages in the context of competition (which ricardo also situates as the precondition for the law of value), and without this, these conditions may be indefinitely suspended, as in the case of keynesian "imperfect competition" (monopoly) which may lead to higher profits by raising prices, for example.
>>2565618
>Marx differs from Smith and Ricardo on some specifics.
any "specific" examples?
>>2565863
marx claims that the economicPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2565868
The tools for economic planning are being made by capitalists themselves. Things like demand forecasting and resource allocation ai. The thing is theyll hold on to those…

>>2565870
>marx claims that the economic relations of labour in class society determines history
and it does, but its not the sole driver of history

>>2565871
Capitalists play a different game in that it is permissible for them to fail. If Amazon bet wrong (say, the price of oil goes up to a million dollars a barrel and their logistics collapse) they go out of business and someone else moves in on their territory. When "Amazon" is the entirety of society, you've got a problem.
Not necessarily an intractable problem, but an underexamined one. The real engine of capitalism so far has not been in that it has successful firms (all systems have successful firms), it is that more than most systems it allows unsuccessful firms to fail. The short term costs hurt, sure, but the long term benefit is that we're no longer pouring social resources into Sears and Blockbuster.
(This says little about economic planning in principle, but it should in broad strokes indicate why decentralized, semi-centralized, or merely indicative planning is preferable to rigid central planning, and why allowing plans to fail is often preferable to trying to salvage them once they go south.)

the lack of a strong failure state is incidentally also why there are so many communist microparties. if a new socdem party can't get elected, it usually gives up pretty quickly because it has obviously failed at its goal. a communist org on the other hand can drift along for 50 years with 15 members masturbating to how they're the one true vanguard who truly understood marxism-leninism-stalinism-maoism-gonzaloism-johnsmithism, because they don't set themselves any serious tests. no communist revolution? of course not, not yet, read theory! sell newspapers! no electoral success? the proletariat has no need for bourgeois electoralism! no new members? as the great stalin said: better fewer, but better!

>>2565863
marx definitely does claim it is the sole driver of history, and he is right about that


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A thread focused on discussing the parasocial relationships cultivated by the Almighty Algorithm to generate profit off of our atomization and society's commodification of petty internet drama.
Brace through the hyper-real lacanian void together!

Reminder That None of This Is Real!™
ɢʀᴀʙ ᴀ ᴘᴀɪʀ ᴏꜰ sᴘᴇᴄᴛᴀᴄʟᴇs

—————————————————–

CORE THEORY
>The Society of the Spectacle (1967) by Guy Debord
📖 • https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/debord/society.htm
📺 • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0blWjssVoUQ

<The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction (1936) by Walter Benjamin
📖 • https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
495 posts and 118 image replies omitted.

>>2562440
poljak was created by leftypol, but chud comes from an 80s movie called cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller, the chapo trap house podcast was calling reichwingers chuds back in 2017 and it spilled over into pop culture through their subreddit, and imageboards. now reichwingers call themselves proud chuds because pejoratives always get reclaimed by the target group.

>>2565809
it's kind of funny how white supremacists use the same kind of "get arrested to get famous" grifts as the hip hop community now. the lumpenization of white supremacy from the pastime of of your george washingtons and woodrow wilsons to something only the stupidest white lumpens engage in is pretty funny. the ruling class is cosmpolitan and mixed now because being an inbred hasburg is stupid.

so did woodie harelson loose his mind?
I never trusted him. Always felt like he's a pedo who fucked his step daughter. he didn't, but there aren't too many woodies around so you have to be careful.

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>>2565550

>>2565550
It's too soon to judge? The man is doing self harm for views. His name is out there and I can't imagine doing this sort of stuff gets you much more than five minutes of fame. Either he makes it to celebrity or he sinks. Which leads me to believe that we haven't seen the worst of this guy.

He'll probably get ganked at some point, nobody will care about his white supremacist outrage, and then he'd be a sad chud.


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