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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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My hot take on vanguardism in the imperial core is that no revolutionary labor aristocracy party is possible. Due to the bourgeoise character of the imperial core, more horizontal forms of organization are necessary. There is no cause of national liberation to unite the country the way there is in the periphery.

It follows that Marxist organizations in the imperial core should focus on anti-imperialism and on the liberation of super-exploited groups and in settler states they should particularly focus on Indigenous independence. You can have a Marxist Indian party. You can have a Black Marxist party. You can have a Marxist transsexual party. You can have a Marxist drug user's party. You can't have a labor aristocracy party.

I still need to think about how to organize a white-trash party or an anti-white party. There is a lot I need to figure out. But the imperial core demands a much more federated approach to liberation.

Anyhow, I have decided that Lenin and Mao were basically good. Just that these kinds of approaches just won't work in the imperial core.

>I still need to think about how to organize a white-trash party or an anti-white party.
Like the Black Panthers and their associated coalition partners?

>>2174719
I guess to some extent I think any white party should allow Black people in as well, and any male party should allow women in, and so on and so forth. So that's how I think a white-trash party might work.

Will there be a party for incels? Too reactionary?

>>2174725
If they want a specific space to be gender nonconforming then they can beg the LGBT coalition partners to make space for them.

>>2174723
Yeah, basically. I'm mostly inspired by the Black Panthers TBH. I think the main thing is that they didn't analyze the declassing of the labor aristocracy. White people wouldn't fall out of the labor aristocracy all at once. They would fall out in clumps like disabled and neurodivergent people. I liked Eldridge Cleaver's "On Lumpen Ideology." https://www.jstor.org/stable/41163604
>>2174725
There should be an autism party sure. Possibly, a GNC man's party.

As >>2174723 says this approach has been tried and ultimately failed under high pressure from the reactionaries. Explicitly organizing around these issues makes sense, but i think we can't take any chances with spreading ourselves too thin. There would need to be a unifying principle compelling these organizations to intimately share resources and expertise, something like the idea of the general strike but more long-lived and adaptable.

The russian revolution was not only the victory of the bolsheviks but also that of the soviets, filled with workers and soldiers highly educated in marxism by all manners of socialists. The question is which structures can endure in a west that is deeply hostile to any type of organic political organization.

>>2174725
They're each others worse ennemies so i can't happen

wow very hot take this is what literally every liberal from los angeles to beijing believes

>>2174743
>>2174759
I think the key difference is a unified effort in support of Indigenous independence. IMO Indigenous nations are the best soil to plant a revolutionary counterpublic. I see Indigenous struggle as the center of any of this kind of federation.

>>2174768
Make it more concrete.

>>2174768
liberals love their little pet minorities

>>2174771
The reservations are the best place to serve as a storehouse of revolutionary tradition and power. Revolutionary parties should centralize around revolutionary Indian nations and fight for Indian independence. In return, the Indian nations can provide guidance on revolutionary readings and help steer the declassed groups away from comprador and labor aristocracy bullshit.

>>2174775
If we want to avoid a comprador non-revolution we have to bypass the universities and go to the reserves.

>>2174776
First this is only possible in settler-colonial states, not the yuropean ethnostates that constitute a significant portion of the imperial core. Second i doubt indigenous people possess latent potential to lead a revolution. New theory can raise consciousness and mobilize untapped reservoirs of proletarians, but i think occupy and blm have clearly indicated financial elites, immiseration, systemic racism and police violence to currently be more promising issues to gather around. If indigenous people were the key to a new political organization, would they not already display a rudimentary form of it.

>>2174797
You have a good point that my analysis doesn't work for Europe. You fail to acknowledge the issue of undocumented immigrants, most of whom have Indigenous heritage. I think this is an opportunity for Indigenous independence movements to join up with undocumented immigrants to form a more stable and longer lasting resistance.

>>2174743
I wouldn't call these movements a failure. The successes of these kinds of movements led to brutal austerity measures and other conservative measures. IMO these reactionary austerity measures hollowed out America from inside and ultimately crippled America's ability to commit to imperialist aggression. America lost Vietnam and America has been losing wars ever since. These movements seem like failures to us but have ended up leading to the failure of American hegemony happening right now.

I guess part of the issue is that within the imperial core you have labor aristocracy leftism (the old left) and token/comprador leftism (the new left). Both are terrible and I'm not sure how to solve these issues.

>>2174725
Would be immediately splitting to form a fakecel party

>>2174719
The labor arisrocracy isn't every single worker in the imperial core. It's those who are able to directly benefit from imperialism through their job, through the property market / stock market, or the highly internally extractive industries that recoup the majority of US workers' wages.

>no revolutionary labor aristocracy party is possible
>liberation of super-exploited groups
what you call the "labor aristocracy" is the super-exploited group, dummy

>>2175252
Pale hands typed this post.

I guess the main thing is that I see Indigenous nations as being able to provide a storehouse of radical knowledge production outside of the academy. https://youtu.be/ciINv0GlDkU

>>2175353
Basically, Black and Indigenous Marxist libraries seem the most sensible approach to organize around for settler states.

>>2174719
>Due to the bourgeoise character of the imperial core, more horizontal forms of organization are necessary. There is no cause of national liberation to unite the country the way there is in the periphery.
EMBRACE WORKER OWNED COOPERATIVES
<noooooooo you can't just have workers starat small businesses and own them together, that's petty bourgeois
YOU WILL ALWAYS SAY IT'S "PETTY BOURGEOIS" socialism or "SMALL BUSINESS" socialism but the only alternative is BOURGEOIS socialism or BIG BIZ socialism.
>muh monopoly and centralization are a necessary evil to plan the economy
WHY CAN'T YOU JUST CENTRALLY PLAN A BUNCH OF WORKER OWNED COOPERATIVES

>>2174724
Anon that’s just a normal party.

>>2174719
>particularly focus on Indigenous independence
Sorry Anon but this is a fundamentally un-serious suggestion. It would at best result in a bunch of tiny little statelets surrounded on all sides by settler society anyways. This is why the Black Panthers abandoned the concept of a Black state. If the rest of the country remained capitalist then such a state would quickly be subjected to neo-colonial domination. If it became socialist then it defeats the need for separatism in the first place.

>>2175377
>WHY CAN'T YOU JUST CENTRALLY PLAN A BUNCH OF WORKER OWNED COOPERATIVES
call me when mondragon is centrally planned. they seem to be quite comfortable with their place in the current capitalist system

>>2175384
>If the rest of the country remained capitalist then such a state would quickly be subjected to neo-colonial domination.
Good observation. This is literally what South Afrikkka did with their Bantustans.

File: 1741038719674.jpeg (36.58 KB, 458x509, Gkdec5ZXUAEc-EO.jpeg)

>you can have a idpol larp party, a idpol larp party, a idpol larp party and even a a idpol larp party. But you cannot have a worker's party
OP, you are a petty bourgeois reactionary.

>>2175391
An even better example is Haiti.

File: 1741038961698.jpeg (722.87 KB, 1410x1762, Frgd6YAXgAIZBxV.jpeg)

>>2174719
>more horizontal forms of organization are necessary.
>Marxist organizations in the imperial core should focus on anti-imperialism and on the liberation of super-exploited groups
I wouldn't mind at all if Marxist fucked off to do idpol book clubs full time while leaving the actual labor movement to us. Good idea anon.

File: 1741040030294-0.jpg (279.57 KB, 1581x1240, 1735621334331.jpg)

>>2175393
>>2175400
That I would add my pics to glowie thread 90000 billion.

>>2174719
liberation of these groups from what, in what, and with what

>>2175377
No, worker co-ops are pretty based and a good compromise for the labor aristocracy to pursue. I just don't think they're enough.

>>2175539
They'd be a good stepping stone towards proper nationalization down the road but as Yugoslavia showed they come with their own issues.

markov chain

>>2175426
I feel so tempted to post that second image on products and businesses labelled "Black owned" if I know they are bad on how they treat people who work for them, otherwise it would be reactionary to go after all them because it will be misread as racism.

>>2175585
dawg if they're bourgeoisie they are exploiting their workers. small businesses tend to be more exploitative on a per-capita basis because they don't have as many employees to spread the surplus extraction across.

>>2175426
wow Fred Hampton was the original white fragility

So I think supporting the Landback movement is the single most important anti-imperialist praxis any Marxist organization in a settler state can do.

>>2176782
Why do people say delusional shit like this? Like come on man I support national liberation for Indigenous people but they're literally 1% of the population. Their national liberation is entirely dependent on the rest of society achieving socialism, not the other way around.

>>2176782
>land "back"
>not socializing all land

>>2174719
So, organize around everything BUT class?

>>2174719
that's it, I'm joining the Marxist transsexual drug users anti-white party aka the DSA.

>>2175377
Based fellow worker-coop enjoyer!

>>2176786
the more absurds your demands are,the more you can claim yourself as a visionary,and then paint yourself as a victim when nobody agree

File: 1741208431028.gif (48.79 KB, 448x480, tenor (3).gif)

>>2174719
>the OP pic
wtf is that supposed to mean?

>>2177792
Schizo posting

>>2177076
No you fuck. I'm saying use Indigenous crack shacks as bases for armed Marxist revolutionaries.

The revolutionary party in the core will be made up of people from the ghettos, the indigenous people, the gypsies, the cripples, the queers, etc. Idpol liberals were right in identifying the revolutionary subjects, but for the wrong reasons.

>>2182196
Sorry m8 but if your revolutionary subject isn't the majority of the population or at least supported by them then you're doomed to fail.
>>2177747
The best is when people make demands and proposals which are absurd and unrealistic on their face and treat any criticism or skepticism as proof of the intractable kkkolonialist kkkarakkkter of kkkrakkkers.

>>2182201
If you want safehouses and if you want food and supplies then you need to make friends with Black people and Indians.

>>2182213
Yeah obviously, the working class is multiracial and the revolutionary worker's movement needs to reflect that, in addition to supporting national liberation on principle. That doesn't change the fact that white proles are inevitably going to make up the single largest segment of any successful revolutionary movement in North America. Again, the national liberation of racialized people is going to succeed or fail based on the success or failure of a predominantly white proletarian revolution, not the other way around. This is just a statement of the basic demographic reality.

>>2182201
>Sorry m8 but if your revolutionary subject isn't the majority of the population or at least supported by them then you're doomed to fail.
That combination of extra-oppressed people is the majority of the population when added all together. Cishet, neurotypical, able-bodied WASPs are a minority in the west now, and that's a good thing.

>>2182229
>That combination of extra-oppressed people is the majority of the population when added all together.
<Black people (all of them, not just poor ones in ghettoes): 13%
<Indigenous people: 1%
<Queer people: 4%
Disabled people are technically much higher (25%) but the vast majority of them are elderly, who are generally reactionary. Only around 5% of people under 65 are considered disabled. These demographics aren't anywhere near the majority even if you don't consider the possibility of overlap. White people make up a plurality of people living under the poverty line, a plurality of the incarcerated, etc. There is no way you can define the revolutionary subject in the US in material terms that does not include white people as its largest segment.

>>2182236
The etc was included for a reason. Count up the migrant workers, the Muslims, the neurodivergent (usually included with disabled), the mentally ill/unfit, etc etc there are a ton of people who are marginalized and therefore kept out of the labor aristocracy one way or another. And yes plenty of them are white people, just not the mythical "white working class" who are straight white protestant men working manual labor jobs and voting republican because they're afraid of mexicans and transhumanists.

>>2182272
> And yes plenty of them are white people, just not the mythical "white working class" who are straight white protestant men working manual labor jobs and voting republican
Cool, I never said any of that other stuff. Just white cishet proles, who still make up the largest segment of the working class.

>>2182285
White cishet proles can also be the other things mentioned that constitute marginalized groups. The point is that the people who are marginalized in some way is more inclusive and constitutes a majority. White people can be disabled for instance.

>>2182313
I'd count most white people in the USA at the level of the black proletariat in the reality of their circumstances at the present moment, they just refuse to accept it.

>>2182313
>White cishet proles can also be the other things mentioned that constitute marginalized groups.
White cishet proles are inherently marginalized by virtue of being proles. Drop this radlib shit and start thinking like a communist.

>>2182322
>>2182323
Yes, they are oppressed as proles but they refuse to accept it. They only recognize oppression when it involves some other process. Ironically you see more class consciousness and racialism from those groups that aren't defined by being proles, because they're already disillusioned with the aspirational myths of capitalism by virtue of how they are discarded. The segments of the proletariat which enjoy the treats or can be fooled into thinking they will get to enjoy the treats tend not to be as radical.

>>2182323
Seconded

>>2182333
>They only recognize oppression when it involves some other process.
Then maybe we shouldn't be reinforcing that tendency by de-emphasizing class as the primary basis of exploitation and oppression.
>Ironically you see more class consciousness and racialism from those groups that aren't defined by being proles, because they're already disillusioned with the aspirational myths of capitalism by virtue of how they are discarded.
That's true to a point, and its certainly true that racialization makes racialized people far more likely to be dissidents, however it very often doesn't promote class consciousness as such. The relationship between capitalism and race is not always immediately apparent, and the experience of racialization can just as easily funnel people towards ethnic nationalism or othe forms of false consciousness. Remember that even at their height, the Black Panthers were significantly outnumbered by the Nation of Islam. Generally forms of bourgeois Black radicalism are more prominent than socialism. Dispelling this tendency requires materialist analysis and Marxist education/agitation, exactly like dispelling the white tendency to blame racialized people, immigrants, etc. This is a big issue I have with Sakai-adjacent arguments, a lot of the tendencies towards racially motivated false consciousness can be seen among racialized people, just as it can be seen among whites. The only difference is that in the former case its usually less virulently reactionary. Racialization alienates people from the status quo and makes them its enemies, but it doesn't necessarily promote an accurate understanding of the real causes of their problems or the necessary solutions.

>>2174719
>My hot take on vanguardism in the imperial core is that no revolutionary labor aristocracy party is possible. Due to the bourgeoise character of the imperial core, more horizontal forms of organization are necessary. There is no cause of national liberation to unite the country the way there is in the periphery.
This is the most incoherent basterdization of marxism that i've read in a while, congratulations.

>National liberation

Not needed for the vanguard party, see the bolsheviks, who invented and perfected the entire model of a communist party. They did not fight a war of national liberation, they fought against their own national bourgeoisie and aristocracy. And Mao fought against the national bourgoiesie for a large part too, the KMT was the nationalist block, which the CPC then fought after jointly kicking out the Japanese. Only in examples such as Vietnam can you speak of the conception of the party as the national liberation vanguard.
>Due to the bourgeoise character of the imperial core, more horizontal forms of organization are necessary.
1. Why would you need horizontal forms of organisation?
2. Does not follow at all from there being a higher degree of labour aristocracy.
> in the imperial core is that no revolutionary labor aristocracy party is possible.
The labor aristocracy is the small section of the working class that fills positions of manegerial or extremely well paid jobs, and therefore have outlooks alligned with the bourgoiesie.
1. These are a minority even in the imperial core
2. By definition, they tend to be *bourgoies* minded, so it makes no sense whatsoever to speak of "a labor aristocracy party". "A labor aristocratic communist vanguard party" is an incoherent, self contradicting idea.
>My hot take
Its not hot, you're one in thousands of retarded uneducated nationalists who aren't marxists because you read marx but because you think xyz national hero figure is cool. Theres plenty of people with identical incoherent views as you.

>It follows that Marxist organizations in the imperial core should focus on anti-imperialism and on the liberation of super-exploited groups

You cannot build mass politics by trying to organize exploited proletarians in the first world with the sole purpose of abstractly "liberating super exploited groups", of which you probably do not know the definition either. The proletariat organizes for its own interests, and its interests are international because capitalism and supply chains are international.

>in settler states they should particularly focus on Indigenous independence.

Vague virtue signaling and not a concrete policy.
>You can have a Marxist Indian party. You can have a Black Marxist party. You can have a Marxist transsexual party. You can have a Marxist drug user's party.
Completely absurd statement dreamt up by the mentally insane.
>You can't have a labor aristocracy party.
You do not know what the labor aristocracy is.

>I still need to think about how to organize a white-trash party or an anti-white party.

More incoherent bs.
>Anyhow, I have decided that Lenin and Mao were basically good. Just that these kinds of approaches just won't work in the imperial core.
>Mao
Saying Maoism doesn't work in the imperial core is the only correct thing you have said here, even if you do now know what Maoism is.
>Lenin
The bolsheviks techniques explicitly are the only model for the imperial code that do work. Its the tactic for urbanized industrial countries. And any communist group in the "periphery" says that communists in the imperial core should emulate Lenin rather than Mao.

How about you stop watching whatever idiotic breadtuber you are binging and going to marxists.org or socialism4all and reading/listening to Lenins most famous works. You might actually learn what the labour aristocracy is, or what a party is.
Or stop being 12.

>>2175353
>>2175356
Not an argument.
If you want to play pretend about politics which say groups with a certain skin colour are better than others and are the only ones worth listening to, might I suggest checking out 4chan.org/pol
This is a marxist board, not a race fetish larp board.

>>2182333
No. Members of white churches or other fascist cults are class traitors, cops or bourgeoise proletariate. They are bribed with the privilege of essential social services to terrorize their fellow workers (queers, Black people, etc…). Look into Operation Gladio. Racist violence has always been tacitly approved by the American state.

>>2182393
IMO Nation of Islam is controlled by the feds. It follows that NOI is really a paramilitary wing of the state in the same fashion that the white churches are. I think there's an argument to make that enough status in the NOI makes you bourgeoise proletariate (so a cop) or possibly a comprador (you profit off of facilitating access to super-exploited markets).


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