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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Seeing the failures of Marxist Leninism I believe that the left communists have the best analysis of the situation from a Marxist perspective, that is of the implementation of State Capitalism, which Lenin admits to establishing in the USSR in The Tax in Kind however never progressing to socialism. This is why Russia today is capitalist as there is never a return to the old system, i.e capitalism going back to feudalism. All other subsequent Marxist Leninist states have followed this path.

Is there anything within Marxist Leninism to suggest this is false beyond just making excuses for whatever the party does? I see a lot of mental gymnastics with China defending the obvious fact that it is just state run capitalism.
53 posts and 3 image replies omitted.

>>2180073
MLs have done more for the benefit and liberation of humanity, and the building of the road to communism than any other political group that ever existed. Decolonization, socdem concessions in capitalist states, smashing of european fascism, mass literacy and development of various backward and exploited states, reaching for the stars, equality for women, anti racism, all this can be traced to MLs organizing and using their power for the benefit of the people.

>the left communists

the useless whiners? what have they ever accomplished beyond helping reactionaries attack socialist project by providing a critique from the left. What useful analysis for changing the world?

>never a return to the old system, i.e capitalism going back to feudalism

except there is. Roman empire is a good example, with a dominant mode of production based on a constant flow of slaves rather than the exploitation of the present population, and reverting to the previous mode of production (the historically dominant peasant economy) afterwards. Modes of productions are dependent on both technological as well as socio-political components. You can't go back to a mode of production backward technologically, but you can go back when only the sociopolical context change. And of course multiple modes of production can coexist.(cockshott talk about this in how the world works iirc)

>it is just state run capitalism

yes, thats called lower phase communism (or socialism), it is a prerequisite to building communism, as advocated by marx, which is why your critique is what we call "dumb ultra screeching".

>>2180313
>Grifters stealing the merit of the bolshevik revolution
>WE DID THIS (even though we purged the original bolsheviks) WE DID EVERYTHING!!!!!
The USSR is not considered particularly State Capitalist. State Capitalism is neither a unique form of Russian Capitalism nor of late Capitalism. The economy of the USSR at its start was mainly pre-Capitalist. The USSR thence tended towards Capitalism. From the time of the emancipation of the serfs in 1861, but really from the revolution on (yes, even during the time of the Proletarian dictatorship until 1926), pre-Capitalist production developed into Capitalist production. The policies of Stalinism were of the primitive accumulation of capital. This is what the forced collectivisation of Russia was. All this is makes sense with the rejection of State Capitalism as a unique feature of Russian Capitalism or of late Capitalism. The ICP tells us, in The Doctrine of the Body Possessed by the Devil
>We have managed to gather many contributions to this from the range of traditional concepts of the marxist school that show that State capitalism is not only the latest aspect of the bourgeois world, but that its forms, even complete, are very old and correspond with the very emergence of the capitalist type of production; they served as the main factors in primitive accumulation and long preceded the fictitious and conventional-environment, which is met far more in the field of apologia than in the real world, of the private enterprise of free initiative and other fine things.

This gave the kolkhozes, collectives of small producers who sold their products (which are also not formally State Capitalism). This does not occur in the first phase of Communist society (which Lenin called Socialism) as then neither small producer nor the exchange of the products of labour exist. Regarding Communist society (yes, including the first phase), we are told by Marx in Part I of Critique of the Gotha Programme,
>Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. The phrase "proceeds of labor", objectionable also today on account of its ambiguity, thus loses all meaning. Engels tells us in Part I of The Peasant Question in France and Germany,The preamble states that in present-day France, the means of production — that is, the land — is in very many localities still in the hands of individual producers as their individual possession; that, however, it is not the task of socialism to separate property from labor, but, on the contrary, to unite these two factors of all production by placing them in the same hands. As has already been pointed out, the latter in this general form is by no means the task of socialism. Its task is, rather, only to transfer the means of production to the producers as their common possession. As soon as we lose sight of this, the above statement becomes directly misleading in that it implies that it is the mission of socialism to convert the present sham property of the small peasant in his fields into real property — that is to say, to convert the small tenant into an owner and the indebted owner into a debtless owner. Undoubtedly, socialism is interested to see that the false semblance of peasant property should disappear, but not in this manner.

The urban workers were paid with money in wages. Again, this does not happen in the first phase of Communist society (which Lenin called Socialism). Engels tells us in Part I of The Peasant Question in France and Germany,

>Socialism is particularly opposed to the exploitation of wage labor.


Marx tells us in Value, Price and Profit,

>Instead of the conservative motto: “A fair day's wage for a fair day's work!” they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: “Abolition of the wages system!”


The ICP sums up the situation,

>The rural collectivism of Russia isn’t Socialist, but Co-operative. Trapped within the laws of the market and the value of labour power, it shows all the contradictions of capitalist production without partaking of its revolutionary element which is the elimination of the small producer. But it has allowed the national State, firmly propped up on the "stable" peasantry, to realise at the expense of incalculable proletarian suffering, its primitive accumulation and achieve its only modern capitalist element: State industrialism.


https://www.international-communist-party.org/English/Texts/Russia/WhyRussia.htm

One may ask if this means Russia was pre-Capitalist. Again, it must be said Russia tended to Capitalism as explained by the ICP in A Revolution Summed Up,

>Not only is such an investment policy of a strictly capitalist character, since it enhances industrial production to the detriment of agricultural production, but it constitutes the economic root of the preference given by the Stalinist regime to the mixed, private cooperative form of the kolkhoz, over the more advanced form of the State farm or sovkhoz. It is quite clear, in fact, that in order to be able to generalize the sovkhozian form in the years preceding the war (or in the reconstruction period of 1945-50), the State would have had to continue to increase its direct investments in agriculture instead of dropping them to the insignificant percentages that we see from 1936 to 1940 and from 1945 to 1950 and which would not improve (quite the contrary) in the Khrushchev era, as we will see later. It would also have had to face an enemy other than the small industrial proletariat of the cities, in the form of the enormous rural proletariat into which the small producers would have been transformed. Already, even as petty bourgeois individualists that remained in the kolkhozes, they did not cease to frighten the regime from the moment when, as a result of forced “collectivization”, they found themselves less dispersed than before. Finally, the generalization of the sovkhoz would not have been compatible with the maintenance of the relative agricultural overpopulation that is borne out in the kolkhoz, thanks precisely to the tolerance towards the exploitation of small plots that it accommodated; it would have “freed up” more labour than industry could immediately absorb, even when fully expanded, and at the same time would have created the risk of the emergence of serious social movements, whereas the kolkhozian system made it possible to maintain, in agriculture, a quantity of labour certainly greater than the normal needs of large mechanized farms; but, for the regime, it was advantageous to be able to draw supplements to industrial labour from this surplus population as and when required. In Russia as elsewhere, it was therefore the demands of capitalist development that, in a form that was admittedly original, prevented the liquidation of the archaism of small production in the countryside. However, its more or less camouflaged persistence, while itself being only a consequence, played its own part in slowing the increase in Russian agricultural yields. In addition to the sparse investment, there was actually a deplorable use of the available capital owing to the indifference of the petty-bourgeois kolkhoz farmer with regard to the interests of society in general, and, in particular, his technical incapacity as a producer working a small plot of land, and for whom the “cultural revolution” (literacy, and the dispatch of specialists of all kinds to kolkhozes) had probably not been accomplished even in the 1960s.


Thus, by the early 1950s, with production tending towards Capitalism, though, with a large amount of small production remaining compared to, for-example, French, American, or English production, and a predominantly non-agricultural labour-force, the Russian Capitalism, prevails. As time continues, the kolkhozes, merged in 1950s and whose workers were paid in traditional wages by the late 1960s, decrease as the demands of Capitalism grow.

File: 1741386154651.png (137.08 KB, 1660x539, ClipboardImage.png)

Lol

>>2180076
>I don't want to wait another 50 years, therefore I will wait forever
>everything everywhere now, or nothing nowhere ever
ah leftcoms never change

>>2180076
The counter argument is more "show me where this has happened or otherwise any substantive reason to think it'll work this time and isn't just chistian eschatology with a hammer and sickle painted on"

File: 1741386706296.png (13.6 MB, 3000x1780, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2180474
Considerations on the party’s organic activity when the general situation is historically unfavourable

1. The so-called question of the party’s internal organisation has always been a subject in the positions of traditional Marxists and of the present Communist Left, born as an opposition to the errors of the Moscow International. Naturally, such a topic is not to be isolated in a watertight compartment, but is instead inseparable from the general framework of our positions.

2. What is part of the doctrine, of the party’s general theory, can be found in the classical texts; it is also exhaustively summarised in more recent works, in Italian texts such as the Rome and Lyon theses, and in many others with which the Left made known its prediction of the Third International’s ruin; the phenomena the latter demonstrated were no smaller in seriousness than those related to the Second International. Such literature is still partly being used now in the study on organisation (meant in its narrow sense as party organisation and not in the broad sense of proletarian organisation, in its varying historical and social forms) and we are not trying to summarise it here, referring the reader to the above mentioned texts and to the vast work in progress of the "Storia della Sinistra", of which the second volume is being prepared.

3. Anything concerning the party’s ideology and nature, being common to us all and beyond dispute, is left to pure theory; and the same goes for the relations between the party and its own proletarian class, that can be condensed to the obvious inference that only with the party and with party action the proletariat becomes a class for itself and for the revolution.

4. We are used to call questions of tactics – though we repeat that autonomous chapters or sections do not exist - those historically arising and going on in the relations between the proletariat and other classes; between the proletarian party and other proletarian organisations; and between the party and other bourgeois and non-proletarian parties.

5. The relation existing between the tactical solutions, such as not to be condemned by the doctrinal and theoretical principles, and the varied development of situations, objective and – in a sense – external to the party, is undoubtedly very changeable; but the Left has asserted that the party must dominate and foresee such relations, as is developed in the Rome theses on tactics meant as a project of theses for international tactics.

There are, synthesising to the extreme, periods of objective favourable conditions, together with unfavourable conditions of the party as subject; there may be the opposite case; and there have been rare but suggestive examples of a well prepared party and of a social situation with the masses thrown towards revolution; and towards the party which foresaw and described it in advance, as Lenin vindicated for Russia’s Bolsheviks.

6. By avoiding pedantic distinctions, we may wonder in which objective situation is today’s society. Certainly the answer is that it is the worst possible situation, and that a large part of proletariat is controlled by parties – hired by the bourgeoisie – that prevent the proletariat itself from any classist revolutionary movement; which is even worse than direct crushing by the bourgeoisie. It is not therefore possible to foresee how long it will take before – in this dead and shapeless situation – what we already termed as "polarisation" or "ionisation" of social molecules, takes place, preceding the outburst of the great class antagonism.

7. What are, in this unfavourable period, the consequences for the party’s internal organic dynamics? We always said, in all the above mentioned texts, that the party cannot avoid being influenced by the character of the real situation surrounding it. Therefore the big existing proletarian parties are – necessarily and avowedly – opportunist.

It is a fundamental thesis of the Left, that our party must not abstain from resisting in such a situation; it must instead survive and hand down the flame, along the historical "thread of time". It will be a small party, not owing to our will or choice, but because of ineluctable necessity. While thinking of the structure of this party, even in the IIIrd International’s epoch of decadence, and in countless polemics, we rejected – with arguments that it is now unnecessary to recall – several accusations. We don"t want a secret sect or élite party, refusing any contact with the outside, owing to a purity mania. We reject any formula of workerist or labourist party excluding all non-proletarians; as it is a formula belonging to all historical opportunists. We don’ t want to reduce the party to an organisation of a cultural, intellectual and scholastic type, as from polemics more than half a century old; neither do we believe, as certain anarchists and blanquists do, that a party is imaginable which is involved in conspiratorial armed action and in hatching plots.

8. Being the opposite of the social complex concentrated on falsification and destruction of theory and sound doctrine, it is evident that today’s small party has, as an outstanding character, the duty of restoring the principles of doctrinal value; but it is unfortunately deprived of the favourable setting that saw Lenin achieving such a work after the disaster of the First World War. But it does not imply that we have to erect a barrier between theory and practical action; because beyond a given limit we would destroy ourselves and all our basic principles. We thus claim all forms of activity peculiar to the favourable periods, insofar as the real force relations render it possible .

9. All this should be treated much more broadly, but it is still possible to achieve a conclusion about the party’s organisational structure in such a difficult transition. It would be a fatal error to consider the party as dividable into two groups, one of which is dedicated to the study and the other to action; such a distinction is deadly for the body of the party, as well as for the individual militant. The meaning of unitarism and of organic centralism is that the party develops inside itself the organs suited to the various functions, which we call propaganda, proselytism, proletarian organisation, union work, etc., up to tomorrow, the armed organisation; but nothing can be inferred from the number of comrades destined for such functions, as on principle no comrade must be left out of any of them.

The fact that in this phase the comrades devoted to theory and to the movement’s history may seem too many, and too few those yet ready to action, is a historical accident. But above all it would be senseless to carry out an investigation into the number of those devoted to the one and to the other display of energy. We all know that, when the situation radicalises, countless elements will side with us, in an immediate, instinctive way, and without the least training course aping scholastic qualifications.

10. We know very well that the opportunist danger, ever since Marx fought against Bakunin, Proudhon, Lassalle, and during all the further phases of the opportunist disease, has always been tied to the influence on the proletariat of petty-bourgeois false allies. Our infinite diffidence towards the contribution of these social strata cannot, and must not, prevent us from utilising – according to history’s mighty lessons - exceptional elements coming from them; the party will destine such elements to the work of setting the theory to order; the lack of such a work would only mean death, while in the future its plan of propagation will have to identify it with the immense extension of revolutionary masses.

11. The violent sparks that flashed between the reophores [???] of our dialectics instructed us that a comrade, communist and revolutionary militant is one who has been able to forget, to renege on, to tear away from his mind and from his heart the classification in which he has been enrolled by the Register of this putrescent society; one who sees and mingles himself in the whole of the millenary space that binds the ancestral, tribal man, fighter against wild beasts, with the member of the future community, fraternal in the joyous harmony of social man.

12. Historical party and formal party.

This distinction is in Marx and Engels and they were right to deduce from it that, being through their work in the line of the historical party, they disdained to be members of any formal party. But no one of today’s militants can infer from it he has the right to a choice: that is of being clearly with the "historical party", and to care nothing about the formal party. Thus it is, owing to the sound intelligence of that proposition of Marx and Engels, which has a dialectical and historical sense - and not because they were supermen of a very special type of race.

Marx says: party in its historical meaning, in the historical sense, and formal, or ephemeral, party. In the first concept lies the continuity, and from it we have derived our characteristic thesis of the invariance of doctrine since its formulation by Marx; not as the invention of a genius, but as the discovery of a result of human evolution. But the two concepts are not metaphysically opposite, and it would be silly to express them by the poor doctrine : I turn my back on the formal party, as I go towards the historical one.

When from the invariant doctrine we draw the conclusion that the revolutionary victory of the working class can only be achieved with the class party and its dictatorship; when, on the basis of Marx’s words we maintain that without a revolutionary and communist party, the proletariat may be a class for bourgeois science, but it is not for us and Marx himself; then the conclusion to be deduced is that, in order to achieve victory, it will be necessary to have a party, worthy at the same time of both characteristics, those of historical party and formal party, i.e. to have solved in the reality of action and history the apparent contradiction – that dominated a long and difficult past – between historical party, then as far as the content (historical, invariant programme) is concerned, and contingent party, that is relating to the form, operating as a force and a physical praxis of a decisive part of the struggling proletariat.

This synthetic clarification of the doctrinal question must also be quickly related to the historical transitions lying behind us.

13. The first transition from a body of small groups and leagues – which the workers’ struggle came out of – to the International party foreseen by doctrine, takes place when the 1st International is founded in 1864. There is no point now in reconstructing the process leading to the crisis of such an organisation, that under Marx’s direction was defended to the last from infiltration of petty-bourgeois programmes such as those of libertarians.

In 1889 the IInd International is built, after Marx’s death, but under Engels’ control, though his directions are not followed. For a moment there is the tendency to have again in the formal party the continuation of the historical one, but all that is broken up in the following years by the federalist and non-centralist type of party; by the influences of parliamentary practice and by the cult of democracy; by the nationalist outlook on individual sections, no longer conceived as armies at war against their own state – as was wanted by the 1848 Manifesto; open revisionism rises up disparaging the historical end and exalting the contingent and formal movement.

The rise of the IIIrd International, after the 1914 disastrous failure of almost all sections into pure democratism and nationalism, was seen by us – in the first years after 1919 – as the complete reconnection of historical party and formal party. The new International arose declaredly centralist and anti-democratic, but the historical praxis of the entrance into it of the sections federated in the failed International was particularly difficult, and made in too much of a hurry by the expectation that the transition, from the seizure of power in Russia to that in other European countries, would be immediate.

If the section that in Italy rose from the ruins of the old party of IInd International, was particularly inclined – not certainly by virtue of persons, but because of its historical origins – to feel the necessity of welding together the historical movement and its present form, that was due to the hard struggles it waged against the degenerated forms, and to the refusal of infiltrations; which were not only attempted by those forces dominated by nationalist, parliamentary and democratic type positions, but also by those (in Italy, maximalism) influenced by anarcho-syndicalist, petty-bourgeois revolutionarism. Such left-wing current fought particularly in order to have more rigid conditions of admissions (construction of the new formal structure), completely put them into effect in Italy, and it was the first to realise the danger for the whole International, when they gave faulty results in France, Germany, etc.

The historical situation, in which the proletarian State was only formed in one country, while in the others the conquest of power had not been achieved, made difficult the clear organic solution of leaving in the hands of the Russian section the helm of the world organisation.

The Left was the first to realise that, whenever the behaviour of the Russian State would start showing signs of deviations – both in internal economy and in international relations – a discrepancy would take place between the politics of the historical party, i.e. of all revolutionary communists of the world, and that of a formal party defending the interests of the contingent Russian State.

14. Such an abyss has since then been fallen into that the "apparent" sections, depending on the Russian leader-party, are carrying out, in the ephemeral sense, a vulgar policy of collaboration with the bourgeoisie, no better than the traditional one of the corrupted parties of the IInd International.

The above enables, and entitles, the groups that come from the struggle of the Italian Left against Moscow’s degeneration, to understand better than anyone else on which path the true, active (and therefore formal) party can keep itself faithful to the characters of the revolutionary, historical party; that potentially exists at least since 1847, which, from a practical point of view, proved itself in great historical events, through the tragic series of the revolution’s defeats.

The transmission of this undeformed tradition, to the efforts made to create, without historical pauses, a new international party organisation cannot be organisationally based on the choice of men, though very qualified or well informed of the historical doctrine. Organically speaking, such transmission can only utilise, in the most faithful way, the line linking the action of the group through which the above mentioned tradition revealed itself 40 years ago, to the present line. The new movement cannot wait for supermen, nor have Messiahs, it must be founded on the revival of what could be preserved for a long time; but preservation cannot be restricted to the teaching of theses and to the search for documents, it uses living instruments in order to form an old guard and to hand over – uncorruptedly and potently – to a young guard. The latter rushes off towards new revolutions, that might have to wait not more than a decade from now the action on the foreground of the historical scene; the party and the revolution having no concern at all for the names of the former and the latter.

The correct transmission of that tradition beyond generations – and also for this beyond names of dead or living men – cannot be restricted to that of critical texts, nor only to the method of utilising the communist party’s doctrine by being close and faithful to classical texts; it must be related to the class battle that the Marxist Left – we don’t want to limit the revival only to the Italian region – set out and carried out in the most inflamed real struggle during the years after 1919, and that was broken, more than by the relations of force with respect to the enemy class, by the dependence on the centre, the centre of the historical world party degenerating to that of an ephemeral party, destroyed by opportunist pathology, until such dependence was, historically and de facto, broken.

The Left historically tried, without breaking from the principle of world centralised discipline, to give revolutionary battle – although defensive – while keeping the vanguard proletariat intact from any collusion with the middle classes, their parties and their doomed-to-defeat ideologies. Having even the historical chance of saving, if not the revolution, at least the core of its historical party, being missed, it has today begun all over again, in a torpid and indifferent objective situation, within a proletariat infected to the bone by petty-bourgeois democratism. But the dawning organism, by utilising the whole of the doctrinal and praxis-based tradition – as confirmed by the historical verification of timely expectations – puts it into effect also with its everyday action; it pursues the aim of re-establishing an always wider contact with the exploited masses, and it eliminates from its structure one of the starting errors of the Moscow International, by getting rid of democratic centralism and of any voting mechanism, as well as every last member eliminating from his ideology any concession to democratoid, pacifist, autonomist or libertarian trends.

Leftcoms literally cannot make an argument without posting an entire pdf from a party that doesn’t exist outside of Belgian college dorms

File: 1741386834079.mp4 (553.48 KB, 640x360, Lol.mp4)

>>2180073
>the left communists have the best analysis of the situation

>>2180488
Falsifier. You're the ones parading "marxist academic" and "marxist philosopher" charlatans.

>>2180487
im not reading this
im on an imageboard for a reason

>>2180490
I haven’t posted a single pdf in this thread

>>2180488
pannekoek should have stuck to his telescopes
maybe he would even get a scholarship from the USSR observatories

>>2180494
Certainly because you sponsor them full time outside of this thread.

>>2180496
I only sponsor what exists in reality, things I can touch and see, you don’t exist


>>2180498
>things I can touch and see
oh god what did you do, they gonna send a pdf of bishop Berkeley now

File: 1741387262426.png (1.47 MB, 960x588, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2180498
>Reality in question

>>2180504
And where are you? Oh wait you can’t prove it because you don’t exist

>>2180504
DSA and Leftcoms are both equally non-existent kkkomrade

>>2180509
DSA actually exists no matter how nauseating you find them, leftcoms don’t even have that

>>2180511
trump has unironically done more real-world communist stuff than DSA simply by shitting on Zelensky and causing the great Euro meltdown
critical support to Comrade Billionaire Trump against the DSA petit-bourgeois deviation

>>2180117
When Communists want a revolution they don't mean breaking shit which already works. We already have central planning under private interests due to monopoly capitalism. Leninists just want to use it for the benefit of the people.

>>2180095
>liberal means anyone I disagree with

>>2180476
>or otherwise any substantive reason to think it'll work this time
what do you mean "this time"? it works every time it is tried. what do you mean by "works"? i think its pretty obvious that building productive forces capable of overcoming scarcity is a prerequisite to something like from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. im not seeing how that is comparable to christian eschatology. the limiting factors are labor and access to resources, and how much has to be split off for defense of the revolution. with sufficient levels of those things its only a matter of time. it would be a lot less time if euroamerican left coms overthrew their own bourgeois dictatorships so that aes could stop spending on defense.

>>2180541
But that's using something in a way it was not designed to. Yes you can take things from capitalism that work but often it has to be entirely reimagined to be functional for socialist intentions.

>>2180911
>But that's using something in a way it was not designed to.
but its not. private planning in small business is still to govern its assets. and when you get up to international corporations with horizontal and vertical integration even more so. the root of govern is cybernetic, its just reactive feedback loops, and those can be used to direct production to needs instead of profit. you can take the same data and software and optimize for something else

>>2180905
>i think its pretty obvious that building productive forces capable of overcoming scarcity is a prerequisite to something like from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
Cavemen could figure it out. But it's not like we have to in order to have a socialist economy. It s pretty funny that MLs complain that other tendencies want to skip capitalism, but it seems you want to skip socialism, going straight from capitalist production-maxing to communism. Which curiously seems to still have a state and commodity production.

>>2180919
what? are you inventing new stages? 'capitalist' production maxing under a dtop is primary stage socialism

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>>2180073
>that is of the implementation of State Capitalism, which Lenin admits to establishing in the USSR in The Tax in Kind however never progressing to socialism.

Which was due to the USSR not only dealing with a fuckton of economic strife, but also required an element of purchasing power in order buy goods/ machinery in order to industrialise itself. That's not even getting into the fact that they had endured decades of war.

I wouldn't exactly call it Socialism either, but it cannot be denied they were a DOTP, established in a feudal society. I'm sure you'd agree socialism isn't something you can achieve overnight.

My question is why does this discredit Marxism Leninism?

>All other subsequent Marxist Leninist states have followed this path.

How is this applicable to states such as vietnam or Cuba? In what way are they reverting to "fedualism"? Are the Maoist controlled areas in the phillipines "socialist"???

Were the Greek Communists (flawed as they later would be) who formed the Mountain Government as a means to resist the Nazis "feudalist" in spite of them granting women equal rights and introducing a system of land reform and direct democracy?

>Is there anything within Marxist Leninism to suggest this is false beyond just making excuses for whatever the party does?


Yeah, from the very theory it puts down. Fuck it, if we're going off what Mao Zedong states, Marxism Leninism isn't a stagnant social theory and is allowed to change its approaches based on new findings and teachings- hell there are even MLs who wound up evolving past the commandist line of vanguardism and wound up developing more horizontalist forms of organisation, Democratic-Confederalism- which has its origins in ML teachings- is an example of this.

What's sad is that for all of Left-Communist analysis is that although it certainly has merit, is that it genuinely lacks any element of empathy or even consideration- your socialist experiment could literally be fighting for its life and having to maintain some element of commodity production to stay afloat- but they'll still call their "opponents" not-true-socialists- as if not achieving socialism overnight in the middle of a war zone is a crime in it of itself.

Hardly any benefit of the doubt, hardly any investigation to the material or political realities of the situation- just smug buzzwords and an almost deliberate lack of intellectual integrity/honesty.

You're hardly better than the other armchairs calling everything they don't like "liberal" or "falsifiers"

>>2180073
>leftcoms can be right if we assume that China is capitalist

.

>>2180076
The leftcom response is to assert that there was "the rule of capital" in the USSR but never actually explain what they mean by that or how you can have capitalism without generalized commodity production, wage labour, private property, or market distribution. Leftcom arguments are always exceedingly vague.

>>2180198
> state capitalism in practice is socialism
Both Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany implemented central economic planning to a degree. So they are socialist according to you I guess

>>2180986
this, but unironically.

>>2181184
Socialism refers to efforts by states to address the social question so yes. It is not a moral indicator as you seem to think it is

>>2181188
Socialism is a social system built around community and collaboration not an anti social economy that preserves what private businesses built in the name of Nationalist interest, chud

File: 1741456015276.pdf (1.41 MB, 197x255, BlandRestoration.pdf)

>>2180073

Progression to basic socialism in the USSR did happen in the USSR during the 30s, but things degenerated from the mid 50s onwards.

>>2180073
Become a worker coop lover like me, friend
ML are relics of of the past more focused on defending their daddies than examining material conditions they operated on or critiquing their failures. They are literally commie version of deus vult LARPers

Anyway the only way to transition to socialism is to build a base for a new economic order within capitalism just like capitalism built up within capitalism before any radical transition took place

>>2181429
>capitalism built up within feudalism
Fixed

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>>2181429
>when the "indepedent worker cooperatives" exploit another unfortunate lesser coperatives, and the "proletarian automanagement of the economy" recycle into capitalist exploitation again.

>>2181442
I really don't care what you have to say because you are a fucking MLtard lol

MLs think china today is communist, so they cant be helped

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>>2181499
Helped with what?

>>2180117
>Stalin did with his "uhmmm ActUaLlY it's communism already look I did it praise me guys come on!!!"
shit that never happened

>>2180137
>Romanovs
some of their living bourgeois relatives breathe air and go around claiming succession, yes
>feudalism
still many vestiges of it. absolute monarchy in Saudi Arabia and UAE. Plenty of constitutional monarchies like Belgium and the UK. Cockshott built the case that the monarchy is regaining lost power in the UK, and Varoufakis argues that capitalist falling rate of profit is resulting in increased rent seeking and a techno-feudal aristocracy, though I think he overstates his case.

But in short, the world still has unhealed wounds of feudalism, and some of those wounds are infected.

Failures? What failures?
I think with a more positive mindset you'll find there are just setbacks not failures.

>>2181130
I'd kinda like that explanation as well. However I'm pretty sure it'll be dumb as fuck.

>>2180131
It has just occurred to me, you people are like flat-earth theorists. There can be days or weeks of discussion that can be all for nowt because the question inevitably comes
>uh-huh, nice argument very convincing, you wouldn't happen to have proof/a source I'd agree with, would you? :^)

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>>2180178
>I did not care for the Bolshevik revolution and MLism
>It insists upon itself
>It takes forever to create socialism, you spend like 70 years and I can't even finish the theory behind it
>I've tried on three separate occasions to get through it and I get to that part where Lenin is writing about opportunists and renegades and I have no idea what he's talking about and that's where I lose interest

I support state-capitalist national-liberation efforts for anti-imperialism reasons but I don't consider them to be socialist states. They're a battle towards victory for the people but only a battle, not the war. State capitalism is inevitably going to slide towards bourgie bullshit after a few decades. Such is life. A battle doesn't have to be a victory to be a success or worth fighting.


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