Can anyone give me ONE LOGICAL REASON as to why leftists should hate modern art?
I’ve never understood the hostility MLs/tankies (in particular) have against abstract expressionist art and music like jazz (and by extension hip hop/rap). Their only “argument” is that the CIA funded abstract art in the 1950s as a way of competing against socialist realism. When you study the actual facts you’d see this assertion is full of holes; the CIA wasn’t privileging abstract art in particular, they were simply funding anything American and boosted just as many realistic artists at the time as they did abstract ones. As well, socialist realism had very little reach outside of the Eastern Bloc. After the New Deal ended it wasn’t like you were seeing socialist realist murals being commissioned everywhere.
It should also be mentioned that the early USSR had an avant-garde art movement too.
As far as music is concerned, jazz and rap are the music of colonized New Afrikans. Hatred of jazz (and by extension rap) has always been a dogwhistle for hatred of Black culture as a whole. The lion’s share of the proletariat in America today are not white and don’t relate to Eurocentric music and art; hell, jazz IS “American classical music” when you really think about it.
So yes Maupinoids, please prove me wrong.
>>2195584They just have this binary idea that modern art is Western and capitalist, and socialist realism is socialist. You could argue Western modernist movements were more aligned with capitalism but they could also be critical of it. The main thing is that art was changing in response to changes in society, politics, and culture. I'm not an art critic but modern art could reflect feelings of alienation or contradictions in modern life.
BTW, an interesting thing about contemporary Chinese art including straight-forward propaganda for the military can blend socialist realism with modernist techniques, like experimental or abstract approaches to form and color.
>>2195584I don’t think anyone is making criticisms against modern art as a whole besides people who are basically fascists already. Sure, there is plenty of valid criticism of more mainstream art directions, but there has been plenty of good work in recent years. It’s not all bad, but it could certainly be much better.
>>2195608>>2195614>>2195622Kill yourself
>>2195718There are various means. On the one hand, art is basically treated as worth whatever is paid for it, so you have instances like Hunter Biden making art that his father's business associates pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for.
So then you've got a work that say, sells for a hundred k. Well that buyer then sells it to someone else for 150. Now this piece of art has appreciated by 50k just by being sold.
There are also all kinds of tax loopholes and schemes where people or institutions that have really famous pieces by Rembrandt or van Gogh or whoever lend them out, loaning them to museums or schools or whatever, who can deduct the value of the piece as a "donation" while simultaneously receiving payment for the duration of its lease, which the leasing institution can also write off.
MLs are basically proto-fascists in many, many ways.
>anti-democratic
>pro-bourgeois dictatorship
>anti-intellectualism and critical thought. It is perceived as an "attack" which is why they call everything a psy-op.
>enthusiastically pro-censorship, particularly the retarded China posters defending their firewall, while using a VPN to post here
>disturbing tendency of ethnic suppression and genocide (relates to their thinly veiled "it's da jewz" conspiracies)
>le motherland, ze great leader write a birthday card for Stalin type of patriotic performance art. Such as when they pretend the Moscow Trials were legit and the Stalinist revisionist history.
That one I'm finding pretty disturbing because I know of a certain ML audiobook channel who has like a thousand videos but I'm fairly certain he doesn't know, or is willing to admit, that Trotsky was Lenin's right-hand man, not Stalin.
>rampant opportunism where the core theory doesn't make any fucking sense anymore (communist billionaires)
It makes sense that modern and contemporary art that challenges traditional conceptions and attempts to facilitate critical thought will get scorned as "Jewish" or whatever.
They'll emphatically deny this, yet we have had entire threads where everyone is debating on whether Polish or Ukraine people are genetically evil. You can wave the flag and pray on the book of Marx (they have not read it) but a spade is a spade.
As for your view on music, the form of it being something doesn't necessarily make it "good" art, in that it's thought provoking or whatever. It quickly becomes just another commodity especially when these genres become a profitable market rather than an artistic, autonomous expression. The best example is Kendrick Lamar, who makes pop-music, no different in purpose to a Taylor Swift or Rebecca Black. His verses about "the people" (usually after a line about his dick or how much money he's making) are there to be amusing to the consumer of the product. That's what sells. Eventually the market trends will pass him and he'll have a legacy like Wu Tang or whatever. Very conservative, safe, "radical" music.
>but everything is art. I like this song!!!
That's postmodernism which is regressive and returning to moral relativism. Be a good absurdist and shut up. There's nothing wrong with liking popular music, I just don't see the purpose of calling it art. There's no reason to label the latest FIFA game, "art." I remember hyper-pop being held up as this cynical, late-capitalist satire and not too long-ago Rebecca Black, who is trained from a very young age to milk popular market trends, drops a hyper-pop track. All the comments are filled with a lot of supportive YAAAASSSS QUEEEN comments too, because she's hopping on the popular trend. It's elitist, sure, but someone has to separate the wheat from the chaff.
>>2195584eh, it's not to my personal taste but I think it's a waste of time to bitch about it
FWIW I like the more violent ero-guro kind of shit. I want to taste the dogshit. Real art should be traumatizing like a lump hammer to the jaw or a parasite burrowing into your eye. Real art needs to be penetrative and invasive. Real art should give you nightmares.
That's just my opinion though. Also I'm fully aware I have fascist tendencies. I mostly read into leftist theory for self-help as a means to figure out why I fell into the alt-right in the past.
It's possible I dislike modern art because of my fascist tendencies anyhow. Such is life.
>>2195802>The best example is Kendrick Lamar, who makes pop-music, no different in purpose to a Taylor Swift or Rebecca Black. His verses about "the people" (usually after a line about his dick or how much money he's making) are there to be amusing to the consumer of the product. That's what sells. Eventually the market trends will pass him and he'll have a legacy like Wu Tang or whatever. Very conservative, safe, "radical" music.That's what the arts have suffered through for centuries.
>That's postmodernism which is regressive and returning to moral relativismWtf is "postmodernism" as an official philosophical bloc?
It seems to be a word that's abused for whining about the world not appealing to superhero fantasies
>>2195634<I don’t think anyone is making criticisms against modern art as a whole besides people who are basically fascists already
>Anons suggest that maybe modern art is not so bad and could be used for good
<Kill yourself >>2195938You find it incomprehensible because you should look at it from a different perspective and understand the context. Unfortunately most of the modern art cannot be understood without the context.
If we go back to the 1920s everyone progressive was intro avant-garde.
The reason why it became a thing is because of multiple factors including the invention of photography, film, First World War, Russian Revolution, basically people were really into this idea of HELL YEAH CHANGE AND PROGRESS BREAK THE OLD SHIT WE DONT NEED IT. At the same time they didn’t know what the future art would look like so they decided to start over essentially and started with the basics, like basic shapes in suprematism. What you see on these pictures is the shapes that all art uses, every other picture ever made is made out of these shapes essentially however here they are sorta separated from the actual image. It’s just shapes.
If we fast forward a bit further to mid century you will find Jackson Pollock. His idea was: all pictures are made out of paints here’s just paint, but without the picture itself. It’s just paint what you see is paint.
So it’s even more disconnected, right?
Now if you fast forward even closer to current day, what is art is really made of? Materials. The canvas is made off wood, fabric. The statues are made out of steel, plastic, marble and etc etc
What you see today in art galleries is essentially deconstructed art.
However today a lot of artists are also trying to construct something out of these deconstructed parts. So for instance a tree made entirely out of green and brown plastic bottles would be called an art. Because it’s using an unconventional material to create something conventional. Or giant fish made out of plastic bottles.
People think it’s stupid but if you understand the context it’s actually really fucking smart and unusual.
>>2195991>>2195584This. I never got why art snobs entitled as they are. Like I've never encountered any other fandom with their head this far up their ass. They themselves admit that "the whole concept of what is and is not 'fine art' is completely subjective." Wow ok cool. From my own subjective viewpoint I think your art is ugly and stupid. From your subjective viewpoint you think it's good and deep or whatever. To each his own. Who the fuck insists people love some genre like this?
>Uhhh why do leftist hate bagpipe music.A lot of people hate bagpipe music. Some people love it. Like I said, who else on Earth insists people have the same subjective reaction to some art?
I hate most art because it sucks and offends all of my sense of good taste. Maybe I'm just a muggle but I never got why we're supposed to care about having the correct aesthetic tastes. Maybe if I followed art I would have a more refined opinion. Likewise, I know video games and what makes a game particularly good, and get annoyed at people who don't understand that.
One reason why socialist realism worked was because it was accessible. Lots of people could learn socialist realism and could "get" socialist realism. American artists would ape socialist realism and found out people liked it. Highly abstract art (a) doesn't work for people who aren't complete nerds for art, and (b) is a money laundering scheme anyway. There's similar NFT shit for art today. It was a big scam running when COVID started. The difference now is that art is more varied and lots of unemployed bums become artists. What we have today is much different, in that art really has come to the masses, by the masses… but because it's made by the masses, it will never be "art". What's really being argued is institutional membership and validity. Many good artists get nothing and are run out of the academy, and then they see CIA-backed horseshit promoted because the artist was tied to drugs and dark shit. It's all so tiresome if you are someone who has a sense of visual aesthetics and wants to see more stuff you like. That's why people hate CIA-backed modern art. It's a big wall to say "fuck you" to the masses. Socialist realism wasn't, because the objective was to display art to demonstrate that the state is totally normal and your friend, rather than the state being an enemy as had been historically the case. In socialist societies ordinary people were expected to have some opinion on art, whether they liked it or not. But also, socialist realism portrayed the lives of normies in a way they could relate to, while not being so tied down to "normal" that it was just a dry recitation. There was room for variability, and as mentioned, Americans aped the style.
What has changed at the top since 1970 is that the state, rather than being merely alienating to the masses, is outright democidal towards the masses. They learned that they could not ignore the masses and tell them they're shit like they used to. It was necessary to invade the spaces we once lived in, destroy them, and erect ghetto graffiti and trashy entertainment to tell us "this is what you like", and then sever people from their own sense of reality and anything creative. So, young artists today retreat to anime and comics, since those couldn't be destroyed too much. A whole lot of people read newspaper comics and they're widespread enough for someone to pick it up for themselves. Now you see performance art of an aborted fetus shown to you to tell you "this is what we want to do to you". It's beyond insulting. They're outright shouting "DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE" now.
>>2195878Joe Hill?
Woodie Gurthrie?
>>2195802>becomes just another commodity especially when these genres become a profitable market rather than an artistic, autonomous expressionEven cavemen artists had to acquire food and shelter, the liberal notion of a romantic artist never existed
>That's postmodernism which is regressive and returning to moral relativism.read Fredric Jameson theory, radlibs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism,_or,_the_Cultural_Logic_of_Late_Capitalism>>2196000>young artists today retreat to anime and comics,JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and One Piece are literally about how cool it is to punch cops and the fascist imperialist state
>>2195584>Can anyone give me ONE LOGICAL REASON as to why leftists should hate modern art?leftists hate modern art
right wingers trad types hate modern art
'apolitcal' normies hate modern art
BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE GARBAGE
>>2195802It's funny how you've internalized every single piece of bourgeois propaganda, especially the "anti-intellectualism" when you've probably never even read Gramsci let alone people like Evald Ilyenkov, Ernst Bloch, not even talking about Chinese thinkers of which you've probably never heard of a single one. I don't need to address every single point of which everyone is a ridiculous strawman, like I don't need to read much further than
<le motherland, ze great leader write a birthday card for Stalinwhich sounds like a liberal parody of an anti-communist. Also the allegations of antisemitism, what the fuck bro.
Then you continue with shilling for American pop culture icons and write stuff like
>That's postmodernism which is regressive and returning to moral relativism.which is subsuming "postmodernism" under something that could have equally said by Jordan Peterson.
Just shut the fuck up, left-wing anti-communist.
>>2199577*how a retards aproach music and art question.
Retvrn garbage won't fly and classical music will only be fitting on elevator music.
>>2199866Modern art is way more broad than that though.
Or I just personally define it too broadly. It feels like putting museum bananas, furry porn, sparkledogs and videogames in the same category, when I feel most people just mean museum bananas.
>>2199681>>2199686Hip hop is CIA.
In the 1940s the CIA launched the Congress for Cultural Freedom, a think-tank designed to channel funds into the anti-Soviet left. They funded artists who appeared "leftist" but were actually anti-Marxist and anti-proletarian. This included propping up hideous and meaningless modern "art" as a means of alienating the working-class from the arts and ensuring art could only be appreciated by pompous cultured elites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD49vdreggw The CIA has been behind the rise of rap for this exact same reason. Hip hop is primarily an anti-working class genre of "music" made by the black lumpenproletariat AKA the criminal underclass. Marx pointed out how the lumpen are an adversary of the genuine working-class, used by the elite to offset class struggle. The lumpen in no way threaten the power of cultured elites, hence why they use the lumpen as a substitute revolutionary subject. The Ivory Tower loves hip hop for this exact reason: they push ugly lumpen music to demoralize and alienate the working-class from the arts. Rappers and hip hop producers now get their albums hailed as the greatest ever made, have music theory books written about them with their "music" taught in universities and win loads of awards. Real proletarian music is completely ignored.
Art under real socialism is about celebrating the beauty of everyday working people and festering a sense of solidarity and brotherhood. China bans rap and gets its school children learning real music, namely classical. They don’t give kids MPCs to learn how to “sample” but give them actual instruments. That’s because real socialism isn’t about romanticizing the gutter but about advancing humanity.
Rap is disoriented, promotes elite values and creates a sense of nihilism in its listeners. Also, sampling itself is by far the worst thing to ever happen to popular music. Not only does it make music more generic but it also destroys the communal nature of music. Classical music takes an entire orchestra to perform. Folk music was meant to be played live with audience participation. Music stealing AKA "sampling" makes the producer an absolute oligarch which is all the more reason hip hop is alienating.
And this is precisely why cultured elites promote rap and sample-based "music": they want to demoralize you and alienate you so you see the world as nothing but ugliness and lose all faith in your fellow man.
>>2206510The 12th track on Immortal Technique’s Revolutionary, Vol. 2. It is an interview with Mumia Abu-Jamal and partial excerpt from his book Live From Death Row.
Mumia Abu-Jamal is an American convict serving a life sentence for the 1981 murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner. His original sentence of death, handed down at his first trial in July 1982, was commuted to life imprisonment in 2012.
Intro:[Mumia Abu-Jamal]
Homeland and Hip-Hop
To think about the origins of hip-hop in this culture
And also about Homeland Security
Is to see that there are, at the very least, two worlds in America One of the well-to-do and another of the struggling
For if ever there was the absence of homeland security, it is seen in the gritty roots of hip-hop
For the music arises from a generation that feels, with some justice
That they have been betrayed by those who came before them That they are at best tolerated in schools, feared on the streets And almost inevitably destined for the hell holes of prison
They grew up hungry, hated, and unloved
And this is the psychic fuel that generates the anger that seems endemic in much of the music and poetry
One senses very little hope above the personal goals of wealth to climb above the pit of poverty
In the broader society, the opposite is true
For here, more than any other place on earth, wealth is so widespread and so bountiful
That what passes for the middle class in America could pass for the upper class in most of the rest of the world
Their very opulence and relative wealth makes them insecure And homeland security is a governmental phrase that is as oxymoronic as crazy as saying military intelligence
Or the U.S Department of Justice
They're just words, they have very little relationship to reality Now do you feel safer now? Do you think you will anytime soon?
Do you think duct tape and Kleenex and color codes will make you safe?
From Death Row, this is Mumia Abu-Jamal
[Sample from the film Contact]
There are many governments, business interests, even religious leaders that would like to see me depart this Earth
I'll grant them their wish soon enough
But before I do, I wish to make a small contribution, a final gesture of goodwill to the people of this little planet that have given
From whom I have taken—so much
>>2206524>>2206510Rap and hip-hop literally emerged from the struggles of minority communities in the states, you could not get more proletarian then that. How is traditional classical music, only available to be learned and played by the elite of the elite, more proletarian then music made in a garage by three guys, a recorder, and a record player? China doesn't even ban rap, so I don't know what that's about. And you have zero proof that hip hop was started and funded by the CIA, actually look at what the Congress of Cultural Freedom funded; it wasn't fucking Coup. It wasn't RATM. It wasn't Blue Scholars. "Celebrating the beauty of everyday working people and festering a sense of solidarity and brotherhood"? "Folk music was meant to be played live with audience participation."
BITCH THATS LITERALLY THE ROOTS OF HIP-HOP. You'd be hard pressed to not come across hip hop that talks about struggle and brotherhood. You'd be hard pressed to find in the origins of Hip-hop artists not playing live in their local communities, not getting people on stage. You talk like you know music, but you consume mass media trash. Why don't you educate yourself on something before you critique it?
>Music stealing AKA "sampling" makes the producer an absolute oligarch which is all the more reason hip hop is alienating. Does this shit sound like a communist, or like some capitalist obsessed with the "ownership" of music?
>And this is precisely why cultured elites promote rap and sample-based "music"You know where you can find other classically obsessed pseuds like yourself? In gentrified liberal city centers, enjoyed by the cultured elites you claims to hate. Fuck off and get some real lived experiance, maybe actually talk to a person or two, bitch.
>>2195584At least 99% of MLs are cultural conservatives, it’s what happens when you worship regimes of harsh labor discipline purely due to its aesthetics
Regarding the art, there’s nothing objectively wrong with it, all you can say is that it’s sold on a market but that’s been the case for art for over a century, not only for art, for all products, so that’s mostly meaningless
MLoids deeply struggle to either admit they’re basically reactoids and romantics for the early half of the previous century and also can’t accept that you can just subjectively not like something due to your personal aesthetic interests and not le ideology
>>2208163Very few MLoids have a remotely good understanding of materialism or Marx’s (or Lenin’s) thought, analysis, and somewhat philosophical outlook at all. A decent example of how little MLs have even read Lenin is the sheer amount claiming Russia isn’t an imperialist power before going on to uphold its military campaign in Ukraine. MLs regularly paraphrase Lenin before supporting inter-imperialist war.
I’m glad you admit you haven’t read Lenin, please just read him directly instead of taking those retarded clowns at face value or assuming they know anything.
>>2207655Mate, Z-posters are pretty much always retarded fascists, just ignore him and assume the actual “problem” with hip-hop is that it’s nighur music, just like their hatred of jazz
>Oh but muh Soviet statesmen said>Muh Adorno saidYea they just hated it bc it’s black music instead of elitist music made for bourgeois consumption in the opera house, non-overt racists have always tried cultural critique over just calling it jungle music and moving on
>>2208169Fair enough, that’s perfectly understandable
Imperialism and State and Revolution are both excellent texts, hope you heal soon and if you give them a read find great value in them
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