Just finished this show and it has become one of my favorites. On the surface this anime appears to be trash anime packed full of fan service, but on watching it the so called "trash anime" is brimming with substance. excellent character design, badass soundtrack, and one of the satisfying endings I have seen in a long time. This show can make a scene of a butt naked woman running around killing enemy's with nothing but her toe nail feel empowering and not at all exploitative and fan servicey. What are your guys opinion on the show?
IDK how much there is to say about the whole fanservice thing. The show is a very thorough deconstruction of the trope. It's integral to the plot and the worldbuilding and the characters literally walk you through the show's thesis in the text. It's not even subtextual or left to interpretation. It's just outright explained to the audience.
I think this show is so cartoony that most of the female fanservice for males doesn't even feel like it was done to titillate. Obviously the fact that there's male fanservice helps.
My only issue with the all the sexual stuff is that I don't remember any male character being molested or sexually harassed like some female characters were.
I like KLK because it's stupid and cool and doesn't pretend to be otherwise.
>>12100>My only issue with the all the sexual stuff is that I don't remember any male character being molested or sexually harassed like some female characters were.That's the point, only females are subject to fan service for the audience of basement dwelling weirdos, and when you combine sex with violence, well, that's what you get m8
KLK suffered the same fate as ME!ME!ME! (horny nerds completely missing the point of it).
>>12102I think the conclusion we should draw from KLK, MEMEME, Eva, American History X, and a lot of other things is that satire doesn't work if you actually include the things you're trying to satirize in any capacity. If you don't want those people to unironically like it for the wrong reasons then you need to either not do it or do it in a way that blueballs them completely and just doesn't have the stuff they are looking for.
>>12102What was the point of it?
t. watched it a decade ago and despised every moment of it
>>12101>only females are subject to fan serviceWrong.
I also said specifically "molested" and "sexually harassed", not fanservice. Like when Ragyo molests Satsuki or Ryuko is harassed by her teacher and Mako's family.
I just remembered that at least Takarada is ass raped, and I'm not sure if Gamagori's BDSM show counts as a male equivalent.
>>12102This (except that I don't believe KLK had anything important to say, at all). I realized it when I went to a con and saw some weeb coomer wearing a T-shirt with pornographic Ryuko fanart on it.
Btw I don't think ME!ME!ME! had a "point", it was probably just done for the sake of degeneracy and the "message" was included only to make it edgy and unique and "deep", in my opinion. Even if it had any real message to tell, all the coomer shit in it completely removed the weight that message had.
>>12105here bro, this guy explains my thoughts on kill la kill quite well
it's a meta show, it subverts conventional anime expectations, it subverts ideas that are so commonly propagated through the anime industry by blasting the ideas to the max.
The sexual assault are both times committed by a woman, if it were a hentai, it would be a pretty standard hentai, but it's in a shounen with characters you care for, characters you wish well.
You're supposed to feel bad for wanting hypersexualization of women in anime.
>>12097we know why you watched it, you're not fooling anyone anon. kill yourself.
>>12097its an extremely degenerate anime for coomers, the "message" was added in a pathetic attempt to fool people into thinking that the show isn't just porn. that "broooo ackchually its about this this and this" cope isn't fooling anyone.
lol @ the cope
trigger employees have posted on 4chan and have literally streamed themselves toying with KLK titty mousepad merchandise
they know their audience and from the looks of it themselves too very well
but sure let's adopt degenerate media because we are losers utterly incapable of making something that doesn't appeal to 12 people in the world total while pretending it's woke
>>12113Hohoho
I'd only ever heard of this animu in passing but having looked it up and watched the explained in OP I picked up on something
That main character is used as for reaction images by a lot of image board weebs presumably because she's their waifu and always those images have her dressed modestly
Following the argument of the vid this means that by doing so they turn all the gratuitous fanservice that is claimed to subvert by being so overt and continuous into the fleeting moment that fanservice requires to function
My sides are in orbit
>>12097It was never trash, it is one of the best hidden communist propaganda aside from Gurren Lagann. The story is basically about two daughters (Anarchism/ Marxism) rebelling against their mother (Capitalism), who literally sold out her and humanity in general to aliens.
>>12110>>12111You will probably not believe me that I went into this anime completely blind.
The only people that didn't like it
1. hate fun
2. are repressed
3. hate themselves
>>12113>degenerate mediawhy hold back anon? just call it jewish like you really want to
>>12106>it subverts conventional anime expectations, it subverts ideas that are so commonly propagated through the anime industry by blasting the ideas to the max.It's not a subversion then.
>if it were a hentai, it would be a pretty standard hentai, but it's in a shounen with characters you care for, characters you wish well. Female characters being molested or sexually harassed in shonen is pretty common.
>>12107>one example there is a theme about defying fate (the life fibers being analog of the red thread of fate), an other is embracing the weirdness and incomprehensibility of people and life. Like when Ryūko learns to embrace the scantily clad Senketsu as her accepting the weirdness of the situation and a testament that she is willing to go through great lengths to achieve her goals.Yes, KLK did pretty obviously have those themes, but it doesn't mean that it had a deep message to tell. Those are common, if not generic, themes in anime as well, so that makes its supposed "message" all the more shallow.
>>12114>presumably because she's their waifu and always those images have her dressed modestlyI'm sure a lot of weebs fell in love with Ryuuko and that's why they prefer to see her dressed normal, but Ryuuko is a pretty cool character beyond the fanservice, and we do see her drawn in a non-sexualized way most of the time in the show, it makes sense that she's not sexualized in many of her reaction pictures.
>>12130Or maybe they just don't care about it?
>>12136>It's not a subversion then.shut up devils advocate
>Female characters being molested or sexually harassed in shonen is pretty common.yes, what's the difference between the dragon ball molestation scenes and the kill la kill molestation scenes?
>>12131because I'm a degenerate not a jewish person? do you have a problem with jewish people?
>>12097why are these ladies so seductively dressed hamamanaa
>>12117you're right OP, I don't believe you.
>>12147I think there's an Alunya Ryuuko edit, which might've made things even more confusing for you kek
>>12097kill la kill yourself.
>>12158it used to be posted on /a/ a lot
>>12116the bouncing tits represent the dialectical clash of the thesis and antithesis
>>12205If you mean the clash between Ryuuko and Satsuki, yes.
>Central to Egri's argument is his claim that the best stories follow the logical method of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, or dialectic, to prove what he calls a "premise." A premise, as Egri describes it, is a thematic truth. In The Art of Dramatic Writing he offers as an example the premise that "stinginess leads to ruin." Having settled on this theme, Egri writes, the playwright can detect in the statement the suggestion of a story's beginning, middle, and end: first, the establishment of an obsessively stingy character; next, the collision of that character's stinginess with inevitable opposition, or antithesis; and finally the character's ruin. Egri also emphasizes what he sees as the ever-present role of change in all forms of life, forcing people to evolve and synthesize new philosophies in the face of one overwhelming obstacle after another.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajos_Egri >>12209i was half joking but yeah this and ttgl give me amazingly leftist vibes that i did not expect to see in anime. i don't know if studio trigger is intending to be this based but it's a really nice change of pace compared to the usual shit this medium does
Gurren Lagann was better and it still felt like “Fanservice: the Anime” despite how cool it looked.
>>12211Studio Trigger was founded by ex-Gainax animators like Imaishi Hiroyuki. Given the corporate bullshit of Gainax in the last decade and the general toxic, exploitive nature of anime, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised about some comrades in Studio Trigger.
>>12213I barely noticed the fanservice so I don't think so .
>>12246I did, so I think yes.
>tfw I will never be able to worship Satsuki
>>12211>ttgl>leftist vibes>vibesThe plot is about overthrowing an exploitative ruling class that has become meta-humans due to their position as rulers alienating them from their humanity, followed by building a literal socialist utopia and defending it from aliens that want to kill humans because of their powers of dialectics.
>>12573>a literal socialist utopiayou got a peer-reviewed source for that chinlet?
i don't remember much of the anime because i watched it like 5 years ago
>>12731Kamina and Simon are your revolutionary leader. They figuratively seize the means of production, when Kamina stole his mech and they inspire others (workers) to emulate him. Together they form the Dai Gurren Dan (Great Crimson Brigade) in other words Big Red Army. The big bad end boss is basically an eco-fascist. I think it's not a coincidence that Marvel copied Thanos' motives from TTGL to prop up their capitalist billionaire superhero.
>>12573>>12733You'd make a great "YouTube reviewer"!
>>15251Ryuko isn't as edgy as Shadow and honestly is much less edgy than a lot of similar hard-assed anti-heroic anime protagonists
That said, I agree with
>>15253 >>15256>Ryuko isn't as edgy as Shadow and honestly is much less edgy than a lot of similar hard-assed anti-heroic anime protagonists She feels pretty edgy to me TBH. Maybe not on the level of some edgelords, but certainly on that "I cut my wrists for goth cred" levels of shit.
>>15251Pretty much.
shadow is great so Ryuko is great too.
>>15261wow qqq in 2022 and on leftypol.
>>12106> it subverts ideas that are so commonly propagated through the anime industry by blasting the ideas to the max. Imagine actually believing this.
"Anime leftism" always boils down to "this titty anime made by people with a long history of loving tits is actually against enjoying tits" dick cage bullshit
>You're supposed to feel bad for wanting hypersexualization of women in anime.No you're not holy shit. No part of it implies this. Trigger are huge fans of fanservice, for both men and women. Why are you people so self hating? Why is orgasm self-denial treated as an integral part of class-based politics?
>it's too cartoony to be fappable >even if countless people find it fappable and cartoony exaggeration is common in drawn porn
>it's criticizing it because it's EXAGGERATING it!Yeah and Gurren is a criticism of super robot anime because it takes super robot tropes above and beyond? Is Panty & Stocking criticizing American cartoons? Fuck off with this shit.
>>12733Gurren is about "past and present coming together to create a path towards the future". Stealing robots and fusing them to create new robots is part of the show's statement on earned individuality, mirroring Simon's development and the pastiche nature of the show itself. You guys suck at understanding media.
>>15298I wasn't merely using equally silly made-up examples in my post above; I've seen people claim Gurren and Panty & Stocking are satirizing super robots and American cartoons respectively because "they're over the top and exaggerating anything means you think it's bad".
Why are Imaishi fans so fucking stupid. He makes good stuff.
YOU PEOPLE HAVE A BIG ANIME TITS THREAD WHO THE HELL ARE YOU FOOLING
>>16220>>16222Not everyone on an imageboard is the same person. This is as true on leftypol as it is anywhere else, especially here on /anime/, which is more or less an afterthought and not strictly dedicated to "leftist" discussion of anime. Communists, liberals from reddit, raiding /pol/yps kicked off the main board, and rodents indifferent to politics (but deeply invested in shitposting on every imageboard on the internet) all post here - none in great numbers, of course, as this board is pretty inactive. Please do not take any random opinion you are confronted with here as representative of anything other than a particular poster's inclinations. Especially considering that others in the thread have already disagreed with the OP on many points.
>>16227Alright sorry it just drives me nuts that you find this stuff in every left-leaning space. Just strikes me as "I got into progressivism through early 2010s Anita drama and can't outgrow it".
>>12106>it subverted expectationsThat's right, Jay.
Taking things to its "logical endpoint" is referenced explicitly when Ryuko is fighting the computer guy by her saying "make a crazier attack even crazier and it will hit".
>>16239how is that criticism of fanservice and not cartoony exaggeration
>>16241I didn't mention either of those things
>>12106>You're supposed to feel bad for wanting hypersexualization of women in anime.Pssh, that's gay.
>>16265yea, my problem with anime is that is just woman, need to have Hypersexualization of man, not just for straights, but gay too.
>>16268There's tons it's just not spammed on imageboards
>>16269Yeah if you post that shit on most imageboards you'd get your thread spammed for being a "faggot" or a "fujoshit".
>>16268>>16270Equal hypersexualization would be a slight improvement from the current status quo, but hypersexualization is symptom of bourgeois decadence regardless and isn't even "socially progressive". Communist countries have both been socially progressive and somewhat conservative about sex, after al.
>>16220Why exactly do you think the left is necessarily anti-titty?
>Stealing robots and fusing them to create new robots is part of the show's statement on earned individualityThis is ignoring a big part of the show to hyper-focus on one aspect of it. I don't think anyone was denying that personal development and growth was a major theme of the show, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any social commentary as well. You gonna argue that the episode where they found that underground colony that had a religion worshiping a derelict mech as a god and made sacrifices to it by sending people to the surface to presumably die when their population got too big was a commentary about "earned individuality"?
>>16336>Why exactly do you think the left is necessarily anti-titty?Not that anon by he probably fell for reactionary bullshit
The left tend to be progressive
They think progressives are anti titty and nudity
Even though rightoidz think the left are pro nudity, but only for non conventionally attractive women or some shit
>>16336I don't think "earned individuality" is even the core theme of Gurren Lagann; my point is that "stealing robots = seizing the means of production" has little basis, especially when the actual show gives you a million hints as to what that element symbolizes.
>>16339you can't with a straight face imply this stuff isn't widespread in online leftist circles, especially when people in this very thread say that nerds "missed the point" of Kill la Kill re: fanservice, compare said fanservice to American History X's portrayal of nazism & claim "you're supposed to feel bad for wanting hypersexualization of women in anime". are those supposed to be /pol/ falseflags?
>>20805>10 yearsJust put me out of my misery 💀
I'm gonna be honest, I remember when this show was praised by leftypol years back and all sorts of analyses were made about how it's leftist and whatever. I never got that vibe, it just felt like the story was just a generic imitation of Yuri-Action anime from decades before as an excuse to show off skin. The animation style wasn't my thing either. People love to mock the fight of Pain vs the Nine Tails, yet a lot of the fights in Kill la Kill are literally the same kind of animation, except with some seizure inducing colors flashing.
>>24310I think a good chunk of it is that it's nominally anti-fascist – as in the bad guys are literally fascists – but that aspect of it gets a bit muddled once the Elite Four are revealed to not be actual bad guys.
The "deconstruction of fanservice" aspect people talk about is dumb, KLK is quite literally the opposite, it's a show about being shameless about sex. That said this aspect of it is also muddled by the fact that the show oftentimes can't quite discern between "Ryuko shouldn't be ashamed of her body" and "Ryuko shouldn't care about all these people who keep touching her inappropriately".
I think comparing the fights with the Pain fight is a huge stretch but I do overall agree that they're very much in the generic "people stand around throwing big attacks with exaggerated animation" mold for the most part, they're actually my least favorite part of the show.
Overall KLK is just a beloved phenomenon so people want to feel like it's on their side. All political groups do this but leftists seem especially prone to it.
>>24984>Elite Four*Student Council but w/e
>>24984>it's nominally anti-fascist – as in the bad guys are literally fascists – but that aspect of it gets a bit muddled once the Elite Four are revealed to not be actual bad guysIt can be interpreted as the rebels raising class consciousness in the military.
>leftists seem especially prone to it/leftypol/ users do be like that.
The only thing Trigger has put out that is as great as Kill la Kill is Cyberpunk Edgerunners, everything else has been good to mid. This makes considering this was first show they put out, excluding the Little Witch Academia short. As studio trigger was founded by former Gainax employees who worked on Gurren Fucking Lagann and Panty and Stocking. As I've always said Gurren Lagann is the best anime that Studio Trigger never maid.
Heavily anti-fascist themed anime with all characters literally designed by a guy who openly supports a niche japanese fascist party
>>29421>anti-fascist themed anime>supports a niche japanese fascist party???
>>15298people who are against subversion, satire, and lampshading always seem to watch everything without an uncritical eye, and conflate depiction with endorsement. This is how you end up with stupid people who think, for example, that Come and See is a pro fascist movie, because most of the content of the movie, uncritically examined, is just fascists brutalizing people.
>>29434>and conflate depiction with endorsementThe problem with this video essay-brained platitude in the context of Kill la Kill is that it assumes an original form of perverted anime that does the same thing but says "this is good", which KLK then supposedly "subverts" by instead saying "this is bad". But take an extreme example of what is supposedly being subverted: the average rape hentai cannot be read as an "endorsement" of rape unless you perform the same conflation you're accusing others of. Hentai is exaggerated to begin with, and rape hentai specifically exaggerates the horror of the situation in the same way you'd expect a condemnatory work to do, because that's the core of its appeal. Rape hentai is tantalizing to people because rape is disgusting and morally wrong. That's what rape fetishists enjoy about it.
KLK and the average rape hentai do present the same thing: exaggerated images of helpless, sympathetic young women in eroticized distress, played as horror. What's the actual objective difference? KLK's weapon of critique is that it's supposedly *more* exaggerated? As if the Goku uniforms are sillier than the clothes in most existing ecchi? As if hentai isn't a genre known for inventing new monstrous creatures entirely for the purpose of making the rape scenes feel even more deliriously heightened than before? As if hentai has never had female rapists or ridiculous fantasy conceits?
KLK is, if anything, a return to the fanservice-heavy origin of the magical girl heroine in Cutey Honey. It even directly lifts stylistic flourishes from Gainax/Anno's adaptation of that property. A property created by a man whose work basically *inaugurated* in anime the concept of condemning violence and rape while vicariously enjoying it through the filter of fiction.
None of this is an attack on Kill la Kill, which is an enjoyable show with impressive animation. It simply doesn't "subvert" anything. People just like to think of it that way, because it gives them a pass to otherwise enjoy the same images straightforwardly (and, ironically, uncritically).
>>29471Addendum: this kind of discourse is a symptom of the constant inability of left-leaning media critique to meet art qua art (i.e. something libidinal, fluid, emotional) and not just a vehicle for simple A=B judgments. That's why people get tripped up on questions as basic as "but how can a work both condemn rape and delight in it at the same time??"
>>15298exaggerating something to an absurd degree is literally what parody is
>>12097Here's some scantily clad women. Oh, you don't like that? Turns out it was for deep philosophical reasons. Male artists have been getting away with this for too long.
>>29476Is there even a famous manga/anime where people say the fanservice is actually deep other than Kill la Kill? Only other one I can think of that maybe *would* get this treatment is GitS but Shirow is pretty openly a huge pervert.
Idk about subversions or not, but I consider Kill la Kill to be an unironic feminist anime. I cant even say creators ment it that way, probably not, but the anarchic style and themes of the show make it a progressive piece of art.
>>29478>starts with a rape scene<guys it's feminist!!yeah, and rapey dandadan is feminist cuz girl MC, right?
>>29478way to much hyperfixation on boobs and being non-consensually groped 24/7 by ryukos friend to consider it feminist. also sushio is a pervert chud so theres that
>>29481dandan is more feminist than klk, has 2 SA scenes yes, but the 2nd is clearly framing it as creepy incel shit who see women as sex objects
>>29484Being a pervert and being a feminist actually goes hand in hand. You cant fight against patriarchy while enforcing bourgeois sexual morality.
>>29496
that's hardly surprising since there's a thousand ideologies that call themselves "feminism" and most probably don't recognize the bourgeoisie as an enemy.
>>29498Feminism is the prodigal daughter of patriarchy
Never forget that
>>29484Eh Sushio's probably an odd one out in actually supporting a hardcore racist politician; it's more that I've never seen any evidence of Nakashima being socialist. He seemed like a VERY garden variety lib when I went through his political tweets/retweets promoting stuff someone more radical never would - like a positive review of JD Vance's Hillbilly Elegy from a fairly prominent Japanese liberal, basically liking him for being a NeverTrumper but the review was far more forgiving of Obama and Bush at the end. Note the "bootstraps" shit during that same line
https://youshofanclub.com/2016/10/31/hillbilly-elegy/ (also this writer took selfies with Hillary lol). If he's changed since then and became more leftist, it wouldn't be very relevant to the discussion since I read this stuff post-KLK. He was normie lib enough to go "hmm very good article" at this in 2016.
If you properly analyze Gurren Lagann this is not very surprising because if you apply its core theme & message ("past and present coming together to create a path towards the future", which often led to "conservative old timers and rebellious youth should work together") to partisan politics you could very easily call it an extremely centrist show. However I think part of why GL is good is because that theme can apply to so many things, not even just politics. Like art or the history of anime & manga.
>>29513That's cuz
1. Nakashima was making up shit as he went along. He literally said his intent was to "develop the themes as the series went along" as opposed to start with a core theme & focus around it like Gurren Lagann. AND
2. KLK is very very clearly inspired by Kakugo no Susume which was more explicitly about fighting fascism, not in a wider "CEOs are fascist" sense but literally "the final boss is the protag's WW2 war criminal grandpa who ran this thing we won't call, Unit 731 but it totally is Unit 731". It's also inspired by Otokogumi which was written by a hardcore "kill the emperor" guy. But since he didn't pick a theme to focus on and he likely ended up wanting to make a wider statement about individuality (likely because, as I said, I wouldn't say he's really a leftist) with a more basic anti-consumerist theme, the overt anti-fascism themes of some of his influences didn't end up being a huge part.
And yeah Satsuki was basically treated like Vegeta and Ragyo like Frieza. Much like Vegeta literally murdering Namekian children while colonizing their planet wasn't treated very seriously since Goku only cares about fighting, Satsuki's fascism wasn't addressed with much gravitas when she became a friend beyond "yeah she was wrong, oh well let's team up >:D" which honestly isn't a problem because I don't think KLK was TRYING to make a serious commentary about fascism.
TL;DR I think that ep 1 moment in class was a vestigial element from KLK's influences and KLK itself went on to focus immensely less on that as the story went on because Nakashima made shit up as he went along.
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