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 No.2442

Can you be an anarchist and a buiness owner?

Or am i approching Anarchism the wrong way but asking about what dosen't make an anarchist? I haven't done that much theory reading, but i've run into anarchist who disregard theory all together.

 No.2445

sighhhh

these kinds of questions dont have good answers
anarchism has one foot in "do whatever you want" and one foot in "actually this is a specific system of ideas and values", so people will argue both ways

I prefer to think of it like this, or basically, this is my critique of non-aversarial anarchists who are just anarchist in the mind:
the form of oppression we face right now from capitalism is masked as freedom. We can choose to be free, or choose to be unfree - or at least that's the ultimatum given to us by society. The logic is that you can commit crimes, and do what you want temporarily, but at the end of the day you'll be less free because you'll be enslaved to the endless running away from the law, and/or you'll end up in jail and be totally unfree. So you should choose to obey the laws, as to be free.
Most anarchists I know IRL are like this (wow how did you know i'm american?). They choose "freedom" over "unfreedom", and so they live a totally normie life. Which I'd argue leads them to in the end, just being boring libs. Not because you're solely defined by your actions, but because BITE.
BITE is a model for cult mind control in part developed i think by US researchers trying to understand korean+chinese supposed brainwashing, and then the E was added on by Steven Hassan, in his work on cults. It stands for Behavior, Information, Thoughts, Emotions. These are all the things that cults manipulate. But not always all at once. When any one of them is forced to hold strong in a certain pattern, if it contradicts the others, it causes cognitive dissonance. Since this one aspect cannot be moved, the other aspects will move towards it. E.g. if your behavior is steadily liberal, pro-capitalist, statist, etc. but you consider yourself anarchist, eventually you'll stop considering yourself an anarchist, or do some mental contrortions justifying why it's okay to do what you do. Because you're not gonna stop living within the law. But also, it's not just thoughts. It's also emotions and information that will follow. And eventuall you'll be reading New York Times with glee, feeling happy on your weekends, and thinking nothing is the matter. Because you've effectively been brainwashed by society, through your own stringent adherence to laws.

My point is really just, watch the fuck out. You think you're doing what you want, but remember how ideology works. And this is why it's good to read. Because it gives you tools so you can fight back and not get ensnared. Ideology works precisely when you think it's not there at all. To bring this to relevance, I mean that when you think you're "just" acting or "doing what you want", this is the realm of ideology, where you're most likely to actually be doing what Capital or Society or The Man or whatever wants.

It's like magic. Or a demon. You can't forget about it, or it gets you. This is basically what happens to formerly radicalish libs and hippies. They want to live their "authentic self" and not be told what to do or perpetuate society. But they dont like critiques of ideology, cause it's marxist and reading books isn't cool. So they be their "authentic selves" right into the jaws of Capital.

From my anarchist point of view, i'm not some kind of nerdass syndicalist or some leftist weirdo like that. So I don't think there's something inherently wrong with you owning a business and being anarchist. Actually I guess some of the best anarchists are business owners… just it usually happens the other way around ;) starting an anarchist practice of some kind, and making it into a business. But this reason (that i layed out above) for having harmonious action and belief isn't really talked about in the general anarchist milleu at all, so take it as just one informed philosophical schizo telling you this :^) Most other people come at this question ime from a point of view of moralism and gatekeeping, or from postie-kid syndrome "just do whatever man".

 No.2446

I would send the cat outside in exile if it slept on my pizza

 No.2447

File: 1630600200949.png (344.87 KB, 750x611, 19248729342371.png)

Consider the following.

 No.2449

>>2445
>>2447
But can't you only "do whatever you want" within the boundries of not taking anyone's freedom? Or am i wrong about that, and not taking someone's freedom takes a back seat to personal liberty? Or is my quesion answered by more reading, if so than please recomend me some books that specifically deal with the "anarchy is when i do whatever i want" aspect?

 No.2450

>>2449
>please recomend me some books that specifically deal with the "anarchy is when i do whatever i want" aspect?
Well, the big one is Stirner's Unique One and Its Property, and then there is Friedrich Nietzsche

 No.2452

File: 1630609169803.jpg (35.59 KB, 750x728, 192847239814329.jpg)

>>2450
>Fedorarich NEETzsche
<a pro-aristocracy reactionary having anything to do with Anarchism let alone Egoism

 No.2459

>>2452
>soyjack poster is a colossal brainlet
colour me surprised

 No.2460

>>2459
Not him, but how does Friedrich Nietzsche relate to anarchism? Is it just because he was against God?

 No.2461

>>2449
>But can't you only "do whatever you want" within the boundries of not taking anyone's freedom?
what do you mean? Like, as an anarchist? As someone trying to maximize freedom? I need more context for this

But in general, i think all anarchism that is for freedom is bound to fail.
For the reasons mentioned above, where freedom becomes a way to seduce people into conformity, and also the following:

We either accept freedom as partial freedom, or freedom within limits, or we accept full freedom. Partial freedom would only mean those freedoms allotted to us, or which we are free to have - as soon as someone asks for one freedom beyond what they have, they realize they were never really free. So I can't believe in a partial freedom being any more free than the current society. We already are given the offer of partial freedom, in exchange for obedience. But what does full freedom entail? Some (like Stirner) take this to a really absurd place (rightly so) and equate freedom with lack, e.g. i can be free from my house, my posessions, etc., and i would be miserable. Or we could critique those who want to be free from death and the constraints of physics (transhu nerds). But even if your conception of freedom is just being free from the laws of man, your very freedom is an unfreedom to those who wish to implement laws (which sounds like a very hypothetical and weird situation, which even if so it's enough counterexample, but if you look at all the social anarchists, what they want is basically a society where they make the rules democratically and through consensus (why do we need rules if everyone already agrees on them?). Even some so-called anarchists are heavily invested in creating laws to control people they deem wrong. So this is very much a real case, and they'd call you some kind of wrecker or poser anarchist if you tried to tell them that anarchy is no rules at all, because to them that means that all kinds of abusers, fascists, etc. get free reign). So even a full freedom is negated by itself at the meta level. It would only be a form of clerico-libertarianism, where the state of society is very controlled, but controlled as to maybe maximize certain freedoms. Not horrible, definitely better than now, but fundamentally not a "full" freedom.

So wtf, all we can have is partial freedoms. And basically we look back to why we wanted freedom in the first place, and hopefully find that it's because we actually wanted to buck authorities over us and to instead rule our lives. This is empowerment, not freedom. And in general, what we need is ownership, more, not less. So personally I think the only feasible position for anarchists is to transition our language from being centered around Freedom and bring it to Ownness, which is much more defensible and to the point. We want to be empowered. We want other to be empowered. We want no state or bullshit over us. Simple as. It doesnt need to be about freedom, which like you say, does contradict itself as a value at the point in which it doubles back on itself. Power and ownness never contradict - the more people laying claim to the thing or asserting themselves, the more ownness and power and affirmed. :-)

Anyways, this is how "personal liberty" and "freedom" isnt really worth asking about

BTW i recommend you read pdf attached. It's a short short intro to Dora. She's not perfect at all, but she's good at understanding what people really mean when they talk about anarchist stuff, I think. Though other have retorted against her that their anarchist is simply the desire to see more people freed from their yolk. So, take each and think about them for yourself. Personally I do think that the pure archism-for-myself is super boring and not what i want, or a viable way to get anarchy for myself. Everyone needs to be empowered for states to stop being a problem. So, pan-archism for me ;-)

 No.2462

>>2461 (me)
two revisions, when i say "all anarchism that is for freedom is bound to fail" i mean intelectually, not like "le actually existing anarchism". Most anarchists i know really just care about praxis for living their own best lives anyways and not some anarchist-world-domination-ism, thankfully

and second, my point which i forgot and just talked around, is that you can "do whatever you want" to any degree…. you can just do it. Just do it. Cause fuck freedom. I do think anarchists shouldnt just be "doing whatever i feel like" robots who refuse ideology (because thats liberalism ;-)), but that doesnt mean I think anarchists are beholden to any set of rules governing their actions because of their beliefs. (such as not being able to do whatever you want, because "freedom" or any other "because anarchism")

 No.2464

File: 1630634074901.png (68.25 KB, 642x563, Freedom.png)

>>2462
>I do think anarchists shouldnt just be "doing whatever i feel like" robots who refuse ideology (because thats liberalism ;-))

What? Liberalism is built upon moralism through Humanism and it's regulation of behaviour on the basis of social contracts, it has nothing to do with what you are describing, it's the same Limited Freedom you talked about earlier, it's just that smug libs think they are "doing whatever they feel like" BECAUSE they can't see Ideology (as abstract self-alienation of your own lived experience in the name of an Ideal) or how it works to influence their actions, which isn't it's negation but the first step in combating it, making their smugness all that much more laughable.

 No.2465

>>2461
>Like, as an anarchist? As someone trying to maximize freedom? I need more context for this
As an anarchist, i don't remember where i heard it, but i had the understanding that Anarchism was freedom without taking someone's freedom.

>The problem, however, is that anarchism as a theory of non-domination demands that individuals

refrain from dominating others even if they could gain greater satisfaction from dominating than
from not dominating.
I don't suppose you know what theory this quote from your pdf is referring to?

What is clerico-libertarianism? i can't find any definition on a search engine.

I like this quote
>The irony is, that in the process of seeking to establish this condition of non-domination called
anarchy, the anarchist would be compelled to turn to a sanction that is but another form of
domination.

 No.2468

>>2464
get a critique of ideology mf 😩
ok i wrote this before i read your whole post. how embarassing, because your post is tiny also. but i never press backspace
you're right, i'm not talking about the political philosophy liberalism, i'm talking about liberal ideology, i.e. ideology.

>(as abstract self-alienation of your own lived experience in the name of an Ideal)

obviously ideology works without doing anything in the name of an ideal, since you can be acting out ideology without knowing it. It fits in better in the realm of the unconscious, rather than just "doing things for an idea". More like doing things that subvert your will towards fulfilling the needs of some larger spooky body (society/family/capital/state), but specifically in the space of unknown knowns.

>which isn't it's negation but the first step in combating it

imma be totally real, i dont know exactly what this refers to
but if im right in assuming it's a grammatically weird thrown in thing saying basically, "understaning/knowing ideology is only the first step in combatting it, not its negation", then i'd add to this:
negation is never total negation, and ideology is never totally negated - thinking this is possible is when you fall into liberalism/ideology, because you falsely believe you have overcome it. At best you move it back safely to its space as ideology, rather than ideas which try to lay hold on you. Which you can negate/combat. (combat through negation)


Also damn that picture is sick, what's it from? That's a neat critique though and i guess says what i was trying to say in the first part but better. Reminds me of bob the snitch black's critique of the concept of rights, along the same vein, that theyre not at all something universal, but given to us by the state, for a price (obedience).

>>2465
>I don't suppose you know what theory this quote from your pdf is referring to?
alli know is the context of the quote would be a spat between a prominent anarchist, and dora marsden, an egoist and feminist who decided that anarchism was lame and she was for archism instead (which isn't to say she became a bootlicker in any way…)

>What is clerico-libertarianism? i can't find any definition on a search engine.

it's in the pdf you just mentioned, search in there and it comes up

and yes i like that quote as well. The best thing about dora marsden is that she was very good with language. Her ideas are rough, but how she says them and argues is very pleasing to me

 No.2471

>>2450
Stirner
>do whatever you want!
Nietzsche
>do whatever Nietzsche wants!!!!

 No.2473

>>2460
Not just his critique of god, but morality in general, his perspectivism, the whole transvaluation of values thing, his celebration of heterogenity and conflict, his critique of the state, etc.

 No.2476

File: 1630692713078.png (403.5 KB, 1600x1000, TAL-1.png)


 No.2510

>>2442
who cares? you can be an egoist (yourself) and be a business owner.

 No.2518

>>2510
Are you saying you can't be a business owner and an anarchist?

 No.2528

>>2518
actually you cant be a business owner cause thats an abstract notion and would never fully describe you as a concrete individual (same goes for anarchist)
it would never fully describe you because you are always more, its just one of your properties

 No.2531

>>2528
what the fuck am i reading? owning a business is not an identity, it's a social fact

 No.2532

>>2531
ok you are just a business owner than, nothing else. all you ever do in your physical existence is managing that shop, you have no thoughts, opinions or emotions because those are not included in the content of the word business owner. you also have no physical features or existence at all, since those are not described by the term business owner. if you were person though, you actually would have those and that would mean that there is more to you than just being a business owner. maybe you would even own a business, but that would just be one of your relations and properties aside from thousand others. but apparently you are just a business owner, some abstract notion of a subject owning a business.

 No.2533

>>2532
god help us all
>critical theory/radlib -> stirner
horrible, misses the point, stupid nonsense, tautology, and advanced liberalism
>hegel/marx -> stirner
critique of liberals, mimicks the context in which stirner is talking, leads to materialism

 No.2534

>>2532
>you are just a business owner than, nothing else. all you ever do in your physical existence is managing that shop, you have no thoughts, opinions or emotions
how the fuck does that follow

>>2533
critical theory is based and was literally invented by hegelian marxists

 No.2535

>>2534
hegel/marx -> stirner -> … -> critical theory is based 😏

 No.2536

>>2534
well what thoughts, feelings or opinions are included in the term business owner? it only describes one relation.

 No.2539

>>2536
what's wrong with stating a relation?
how the fuck did your brain get on this shit? like fam i'm not even trying to be that hostile here, but i hope you realize that the way in which you're viewing the world through the way you use language is very strange - to the point that you're downplaying the validty of material relations in favor of an essential view of identity which is based around thoughts+feelings

also there are going to be thoughts, feelings, and opinions which arise from the material relation of owning a business… just from having to do business-owner-things, you'll start to think differently, justify your actions and position in the world, see people and things differently out of necessity of your position, etc.
But these things aren't easily calculable. That's why we can just say "business owner" and no one (but you) assumes this means "the whole of my being is contained in the term business owner" or "my whole view of the world and personality is determined by being a business owner". And people generally understand it to mean that among other things, you own a business.

 No.2540

>>2539
idk fam, im usually high and make shit up when I post here

 No.2543

>>2540
god damn
drugs keep the noble egoist down… smdh
stirner was SxE, he only drank milk
how does that make you feel?

 No.2566

>>2543
who cares, stirner also wasn't into ass eating
the times they are a changing

 No.2569

>>2566
stfu fake egoist, you worship ass

 No.2570

>>2569
>egoist means you can't worship anything
???

 No.2571

>a TRUE egoist

 No.2573

>>2570
You can worship something and still be an egoist? I haven't read The Unique and Its Property but isn't the point of egoism to despook yourself, and therefore wouldn't worship of something be spooking you?

 No.2574

>>2573
not if it statisfies your unique being

 No.2575

>>2573
Worshipping something would mean placing it over yourself, so that would be pretty spooked indeed. But ass worship just means burying your face between some asscheecks so yeah that's pretty much recommended if not necessary to be an egoist.

 No.2580

>>2575
sauce?

 No.2581

>>2575
What makes ass worship good? aren't you putting the ass on a pedestal?

 No.2582

>>2581
Sorry it is written in the big book
> Ass is all perfect! Because, in each moment, ass is all it can be, and never need to be more.

 No.2583

Sewerage systems how build?

 No.2584

>>2583
Tankies don't understand this because their small pseudointellectual brains can't comprehend recursion in a social solution:
throw it next door.

 No.2587

>>2582
lol
quoting the meme line thats always taken out of context by ego-liberals
10/10

 No.2689

>>2587
tf is a ego-liberal?
and from what perspective is this written, ego-conservative?


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