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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1673382821530.jpeg (74.01 KB, 638x479, antinatalism-is-a-mental-….jpeg)

 

Serious discussion.

The right completely rejects any anti-natal ethic (see pic related). most antinatalists are overwhelmingly pessimists (or cynics) and when politically active they tend to be leftist socialists (Think Thomas Ligotti, David Benatar, Philipp Mainländer… etc). antinatalism is very underground, even more so than veganism and is mostly perceived in a negative light even by the left. it's seen as reactionary and extreme and therefore dismissed.
however, I think that anti-natal ethics have a huge potential to reduce a lot of suffering as antinatalist philosophy often asks deeper questions about life, meanwhile most of the leftist discourse is focused on social identity and capitalism. it's not that antinatalists don't think of those things as big problems that need to be overcome, on the contrary, antinatalists tend to be hardcore socialist leftists but they also recognize deeper issues that (I would argue) are even more pressing than the overcoming of capitalism.
now before you slam antinatalists as genocidal defeatist nihilists, you should understand that antinatalists are not a monolith, some are apolitical and some aren't, some have unconditional anti-life attitudes and some are transhumanists and so on…
the point im trying to make here is that I think it's a mistake to outright reject antinatalism or antinatalists from leftist discourse, and as allies, as antinatalists care deeply about suffering, something that the left is synonymous with.

For me, this question comes down to a personal ethical judgement. I would never condemn someone for choosing to have a child, but I don't think I myself would be able to live with the guilt of bringing a life into a world as full of suffering as this on currently is. If we lived in a different world, I'm sure my calculus would be different, but the way the situation is now, I can't personally do it. Lately I've been considering the idea of adoption (very ethically fraught in its own ways) as a way to try and do well by the next generation without being personally responsible for their entry into the world.

Nobody can consent to being brought into existence. This is ontologically impossible. Given the suffering that existence entails, you cannot justify forcing someone to exist.
There is a stricter and a softer version of this, the softer one being that the "necessary" suffering of existence is actually contingent on the present context and there is a hypothetical future where one could ethically bring a person into existence.

>>14251
antinatalism proposes that we aren't one of earth's creatures and that we'll never live in harmony with the planet

it's cringe and not worth pursuing

If the goal is to preserve genetic lines and its carriers the number 1 threat to those is human activity, see 6th mass extinction for reference, so the logical conclusion is to reduce said activity and cull the population.

>>14255
that's not anti-natalism
"don't make more people" is not the same as "kill people"

>>14254
See the issue is that your worldview is comically impossible. there is no harmony under ruthless darwinian life conditions. take off your tinted rose glasses.

I mean its not like anti-natalists campaign to ban repreduction or anything, so I dont see why any issue should arise from accepting them into leftist discourse.

>however, I think that anti-natal ethics have a huge potential to reduce a lot of suffering as antinatalist philosophy often asks deeper questions about life, meanwhile most of the leftist discourse is focused on social identity and capitalism.

If the solution to the worlds problems is killing off humanity, why fight for communism?
Anti natalists arent left wing. You will be purged from any serious party for good reason.

Never trust an anti-natalist who hasn't killed themselves yet.

>>14251
I'm indifferent to the natalist question.

File: 1673387110726.png (105.86 KB, 352x264, Ultimate Equation-25860619….png)

>>14258
Actually some very small branch of radical antinatalists (efilists) tend to be fascists.

>>14259
antinatalism isn't necessarily anti-life doofus. the human condition is not something to be celebrated.
might as well condemn transhumanists for wanting to escape their flesh suits.

>>14260
Well you shouldn't be. if you care about things like capitalism but not natalism then you're not seeing the bigger picture.

File: 1673388615433.png (409.24 KB, 995x4857, birth-strike-full-text.png)

Birth strike under capitalism.

Baby boom under socialism.

File: 1673389420645.png (233.43 KB, 474x554, ClipboardImage.png)

Anti natalism is cringe
nihilists btfo
go kill yourselves

>>14265
Anarcho-syndicalists aren't nihilists. We advocate birth control and birth strike for strategic, anti-capitalist reasons.

File: 1673389558617.jpeg (26.24 KB, 474x464, th-4212344926.jpeg)

>>14265
wrong again, antinatalists aren't nihilists. better luck next time odious!

>>14264
>>14266
nothing to do with antinatalist philosophy nor policy. it's not just about capitalism.

>>1329034
it doesn't matter, humanity will go extinct one way or another. I don't have to convince anyone, we win by default. the difference is how many can we prevent from being birthed before the eventual collapse and extinction of all biological darwinian life? our B plan/strategy is damage control.

>>1329066
im not impractical… I know that it's a hard sell, I have no hopes for that but if I can prevent one birth… ill take that. I do not care what other people do, I just care that it's a less annoying world. my antinatalism is just one thing to reduce annoyance (least effective thing but still a thing) and no, I don't take it on a moral high ground (unlike the rest of the faggot antinatalists).

>>14251
The natalism discussion is stupid. I don't think anyone should mandate whever others have children or not since that changes your life as much as going to prison for 20 years might. I certainly refuse to have children. Anyway OP, you are stupid, sorry there's no better way to say it. How is natalism possibly more important than overthrowing capitalism? I think the only way you could believe that is if you think life is fundementally awful for the majority of people (I don't think it is), but what if that's only the case under capitalism? What's the point in focusing on reducing birth rates rather than improving conditions for everyone. Makes no sense to me unless you're deeply cynical about the world. And don't try to make other people have children or not since that is an arsehole idea. At least anti-natalism will never be put into practice, unlike policies to increase birth rates which are likely to be proposed and are the real danger.

>and when politically active they tend to be leftist socialists (Think Thomas Ligotti, David Benatar, Philipp Mainländer… etc)
None of these people are socialists, unless you see SocDems as socialists.
>it's not that antinatalists don't think of those things as big problems that need to be overcome, on the contrary, antinatalists tend to be hardcore socialist leftists but they also recognize deeper issues that (I would argue) are even more pressing than the overcoming of capitalism.
Thai couldn't be further from the truth. Obsessive naturalists that argue in favor of births for the sake of births largely do so for flawed moralistic reason, but so do antinatalists, to the point that any truely actionable antinatalist program practically immediately goes straight to eugenics or mass sterilization. Either you ask the question of "who" should have kids, which immediately causes any real world program toenter into the realm of eugenics, or you universally enact policy to prevent humans altogether from propagating.

>>14272
*Obsessive natalists

I disagree with the premise that suffering is inherently bad in all contexts, the right amount of melancholy and heartbreak makes a person whole, more well rounded.

>>14271
True, like Benatar I have no illusions about an antinatalist endgame. but ill still talk about it whenever I can. and it's only stupid because the world is filled with idiots like you, unfortunately.

>At least anti-natalism will never be put into practice, unlike policies to increase birth rates which are likely to be proposed and are the real danger.
thats because antinatalists (not the lefty man children at r/antinatalism) are usually empathic and self aware nihilists that mind their own business.

I'm pretty sure Mainländer was a socialist.

File: 1673393906030.jpeg (7.2 KB, 200x285, th-1793781656.jpeg)

>>14276 meant for >>14272

>>14269
>humanity will go extinct one way or another
Yes, "another" meaning evolving into something else after a few millions of years or as a result of genetics mastery, which is the desirable path.

>>14272
>or you universally enact policy to prevent humans altogether from propagating.
Giving birth shouldn't (creating a conscious life) be a right. ever. for no one.

>>14278
eugenics? on my /leftypol/?

>>14251
I kinda like that art tbh. Also, who cares about antinatalists? Pretty irrelevant subculture that is talked about too much online in proportion to its actual influence.

>>14251
pic in OP is retarded. Wanting to reduce population overall is not the same as personally wanting to reduce your own procreation. Soft Antinatalism is really just neoliberal eugenics

>>14251
people don't have 'lineages' they're a social construct. There is only one lineage of the human race. If you procreate for the sake of 'muh genes' ur a retard.

People who procreate are useful idiots for human race

>>14283
<nooooo! You don’t understand! I must preserve muh aran genes from the hordes! We’re different species! What do you mean all modern humans spawn from around 5-10k people from an extinction event 72,000 years ago? What do you mean my lineage becomes nearly identical with the worlds lineage if I go back more than 15 generations? LIES! I’M INHERENTLY SPECIAL!

>>14285
Well even if they were superior I still don't understand how that supports your argument.

>>14283
Based and true. I hate even getting into this debate, but even people who believe in the race realist question or whatever, how could one pure-blooded Black person have a higher autism score than a White person if it was some kind of special genetic facto? Feels shit to be the shit end of the paradigm or whatever but White people got nothing else than being like "WELL we are statistically inferior to Asians and Jew BUT we are superior to Africans! That's all that counts."

Natalism remains fundamentally equivalent to slavery because not one fucker on this planet would have a child if they didn't think they'd get more out of them than they put in.

>>14287
How shit is that too for White people? You invent the metrics and paradigms and you still lose.

>>14288
Sorry you had a shit family life anon.

>>14253
Non consent is ontologically impossible for the same reason consent is. New people are brought in to inherit tasks and projects and property and to take care of the dying.

>>14288
We inherit the victories of past generations.

>>14283
We share genetic lineage with other life forms as well

>>14290
I am absolutely certain that you want more workers solely for their own sake, and dont expect to get labor out of them that they're not allowed to opt out of.

>>14254
Capitalism and the general Anglo colonizer mindset is not conducive to living in harmony with the planet and never will be. I don't mind if gloids see the destruction of the world through climate change and decide not to have kids.

>>14292
Pffff. Empty platitude.
It's utterly irrelevant to the calculus at hand. It's openly discussed that people only want more kids because they want the labor out of them, some groups want to inflict less children because they want the other groups to have less labor power. It is blatantly fucking obvious.

Soft antinatalism is lifestyles. Hard antinatalism is the controlled demolition of humanity's future

File: 1673410025486.png (167.66 KB, 720x405, ClipboardImage.png)

>>14294
Me personally? I don't give a fuck. I'm just coasting through life. I like my life clean without responsibilities if I can avoid it. I'm mostly watching what happens. Kids aren't a good investment, they can go fuck off and do whatever they want. Most Americans don't give a fuck what their kids do, they kick them out at 18 and are surprised when they end up in a retirement home. I'm not adding anything to the generational wealth currently, but it doesn't even matter, I don't want much and I'm going to end up with more than I'll ever need either way. I like my parents and we came to an understanding after years of fucking through years of American indoctrination. Blood is thicker than water but the goverment and social media and society would like you to think different. Parents and children should heed it. This shit don't matter. I'll be good in any scenario.

>>14296
My parents labored very hard for me and got comparatively less labor out of me. They also taught me a lot of things, fed me, and clothed me. The human species will continue to grow and learn. I have a kid. 😎

File: 1673410363323.png (254.83 KB, 720x404, 1658162408506.png)

Why even spend two seconds thinking about anti-natalism in this day and age of below replacement level fertility levels?

>>14290
>>14294
You both should make fewer assumptions and ask more questions

>>14301
Such as?

>>14301
Liiiiike?

>>14296
>It's openly discussed that people only want more kids because they want the labor out of them,
Not everyone is this calculating. My mom had me because she didn't get an abortion in time. My wife always wanted a kid but we waited 10 years and saved up enough resources to give her a decent upbringing. We aren't rich but we have friends an family who form a mutual support network.

>>14304
Yes, Anon, I am talking about things on a totally personal, individual level, single instances of kids being freeloaders destroys social analysis.

>>14305
wut

>>14253
>you can’t consent to being brought to life
What a hyper liberal input on childbirth lol
>noooooo I didn’t consent!!! I’m projecting the liberal obsession of violating consent on the matter of life itself
If you hate living so much go jump in the middle of the ocean, see if you really hate that you were brought Into the world without your consent then.

>>14302
>>14303

Instead of saying "sorry you had a shit family", ask, "how was your family?"

Instead of saying " I am absolutely certain that you want more workers solely for their own sake," instead ask "do you want children? If so, why?"

😜

>>14306
Society exists by bringing people into the world without their consent, indebts them to it when they are unable to give input on it, then entraps them and demands they produce more than they themselves use.
Even Lenin agrees with this doctrine.

>>14308
ok liberal

>>14309
>Even Lenin agrees with this doctrine.
Good for him I guess? I guess I don't live my life for some guy who died a hundred years ago?

Sorry your life sucks anon.

File: 1673411669717.jpg (31.4 KB, 659x609, so_good.jpg)

>>14251
Thomas Ligotti's cosmic horrors are worth a read even if you are not a fan of antinatalism. Its dope. Also I love quotes of these antinatalist/efilist philosophers :

>“He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities.”

>“For the rest of the earth’s organisms, existence is relatively uncomplicated. Their lives are about three things: survival, reproduction, death—and nothing else. But we know too much to content ourselves with surviving, reproducing, dying—and nothing else. We know we are alive and know we will die. We also know we will suffer during our lives before suffering—slowly or quickly—as we draw near to death. This is the knowledge we “enjoy” as the most intelligent organisms to gush from the womb of nature. And being so, we feel shortchanged if there is nothing else for us than to survive, reproduce, and die. We want there to be more to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy: Consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of striving to be unself-conscious of what we are—hunks of spoiling flesh on disintegrating bones.”

>“A coin is examined, and only after careful deliberation, given to a beggar, whereas a child is flung out into the cosmic brutality without hesitation.”

getting chills rn not gonna lie

>>14311
Cool, so it's still a system of forced labor.

>>14313
I don't do any labor. Maybe you could get your head above water if you didn't buy into bullshit, but you do you.

>>14305
>Yes, Anon, I am talking about things on a totally personal, individual level
You were though. You didn't level your assumption at people in general, but against the anon you were talking to? What purpose can a discussion serve if you aren't interested on what others think? See how I have asked you three questions in this response alone? 🤔

>>14314
OK porky.

>>14316
Sucks to suck. You got the virtue points anon. Very materialist.

>>14305
>A child is either a slave or a freeloader
This is a reductive false dichotomy.

>>14318
Just like how trying to divvy up people based on how they get their income is a reductive false analysis.

>>14319
It's materialist.

>>14319
>trying to divvy up animals based on how they get their food is a reductive false analysis
>the tapeworm is the same as a wolf guise

>>14310
20 friends, family and acquaintances came together to give my wife and I gifts when they learned we were having a child. Many of them were better off than us, expected nothing in return, and had no incentive other than the good feeling one gets from acting out a culturally inculcated sense of empathy. Parents and children can and often do have exploitative relationships but they can also have mutually beneficial relationships. It is true that no one consents to being born, but most of us are up to the challenges and live not just for ourselves, but for others. Nothing is forever and everything is in flux. I am not a liberal.

File: 1673412926289.jpeg (33.49 KB, 713x539, BC634552-6910-4D58-B560-A….jpeg)

Life is a bitch but I guess that’s what makes it interesting. I think it pretty cool that you can live despite horrible shit.

Antinatalism is stupidity because it will lead to the extinction of people who are sensitive enough to recognize the problems of our world and transformed our species into a retard breeder one

File: 1673413204072.jpg (87.17 KB, 720x1120, g4e.jpg)

>>14261
>fascism is when wanting no life
>bringing more and more life into this messy world without their permission is totally not fascism tho since everyone is mindlessly doing it

Antinatalism is just eugenicist. From everything I have seen, antinatalists insist that those who want children are primitive, incapable of higher thinking, and acting on simple instinct. It is is more or less the stance of the British Empire on the peoples they've ruled over. It's founded on the belief that populations must be managed and that left to their own devices, people will act "incorrectly." It is the same assumptions that prop up the "tragedy of the commons" argument. Colonial rule and enclosure of the commons share a common ancestor with antinatalism.

>>14325

Yes comrade, only through compulsory sterilization of the human species will the proletariat overcome the bourgeoisie. Life, evolution, and reproduction will definitely not continue after humanity commits suicide

File: 1673414042922.png (52.94 KB, 773x592, 3rfio.png)

>>14251
>The right completely rejects any anti-natal ethic
Not the case in every country though. Bible for example can be pro life at times but can be extremely antinatalist at other times. See the pic for example

Why does "The Left" have to have a position on this at all? Have kids or don't, who cares.

>>14327
"Problems" exist only when life exists. People who have more kids "to solve world problems" are not seeing the irony. We create the problems and then run around trying to solve it. The whole reproduction thing is a pyramid scheme

>Life, evolution, and reproduction will definitely not continue after humanity commits suicide
True this can be a problem for an efilist. Not for antinatalist though since they talk only about human life. I think we need to discover some technology to wipe out life in one strike. Then just like in other planets everything will be at peace

>>14329
Yeah thats a fair point

Anti-natalists only wiping out themselves. Good luck you bitter fucks.

>>14330
>Reproduction is a pyramid scheme
Highly spooked thinking. Reproduction is a byproduct of biology which is a byproduct of the laws of physics. Life emerged in simple form before it was ever capable of regret or sadness. There is no malevolent deity that created this pyramid scheme. Nor would there be any benefit from doing such a thing. If antinatalists successfully directed a controller demolition of the human species, it would not fix the problem, since complex intelligent life could continue to emerge on Earth or elsewhere. The antinatalist is simply projecting their unfulfilled desire to commit suicide onto the entire species

>>14333
Good thing the world will continue to be here despite of a few neutered westoids.

>>14330
>"Problems" exist only when life exists.
Same thing with solutions. Maybe existence is just nonexistence doing a really complicated cost benefit analysis that takes an infinite amount of time to calculate in order to decide whether or not to continue not existing lmfao

>>14335
Maybe existence just doesn't want you to exist.

File: 1673416870934.jpg (29.69 KB, 612x612, 3ed.jpg)

>>14336
so existence was the radical antinatalist all along

>>14337
I dunno, I could go get multiple women to carry my seed to term right now, doesn't mean shit. Stop being faggots for fuck's sake.

>>14262
Then kys

I CANT BREED

File: 1673421703907.gif (1.26 MB, 450x300, 3erf.gif)

>>14332
Just like natalists forced life on us, we will force the void on all of you. ITS OVER. Just bcuz some of you are so addicted to this life game countless lifes have to come and go to suffer cancer, mental disease and other side effects of life

>>14334
Actually the birth rates fall in every country after a certain point of development is reached eventually going below replacement

>>14333
>since complex intelligent life could continue to emerge on Earth or elsewhere
We can solve that in the future by coding a robot to prevent life from emerging by making it nuke the shit out of the planet if any signs of life emerge

>>14251
It's pretty simple. I hate living under capitalism and I don't want to subject any other person to that fate if it could be avoided. I also see major horrors in the future. The best case scenario: global spread of communism, entails civil wars on a massive scale and potentially a new world war. Horrors beyond imagening are awaiting us in the second half of this century. I would have children if I got to raise them in a communist society.

>>14262
You should kill yourself

>>1329675
based and correct op is a reactionary cynic

File: 1673440610150.jpg (90.79 KB, 1280x720, 3r3.jpg)

>>1329675
>which would entail the extinction of the species, and absolutely guarantees that communism will never be achieved
As I said without a problem there is no need for a solution. Also the chances of our sspecies being wiped out in a painful nuclear due to capitalist pigs is more likely than achieving communism.

>The fact that you haven’t killed yourself leads me to conclude that you don’t actually advocate the extinction of the species, and therefore, your views are incoherent
Okay then listen to a guy who infact did kill himself about 2 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/@efilblaise4883
Most efilists don't kill themselves due to reasons like lack of courage, inbuilt psychological defense mechanisms (Read the philosophical essay by Peter zapffe to understand this point https://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah) , fear of pain, inaccessibility of non painful methods like Nembutal usage (bcuz governments and the society want more slaves of course).

>why you think you should have the right to decide against existence for future generations
If this foolish society can force life on others who don't need it recklessly even under brutal conditions like war we have all the right to take it away for the greater good of the downtrodden and suffering people

*nuclear war

>>14345
People who exist always have the option of non existence. People who never existed have no choice.

>>14347
>People who never existed have no choice
There is no entity to have the choice. Nobody is missing out or having the fear of missing out before birth. It is better not to impose life on anybody giving consideration to the amount of people who will suffer once they are born. Taking decision for others(since entity exists after birth) and then asking them to kill themselves if they get cancer or are suffering from existential horror is cruel

>>14345
>Also the chances of our sspecies being wiped out in a painful nuclear due to capitalist pigs is more likely than achieving communism.
>anti-natalism is totally not just a depression cult guys

>>14329
Because the ethics of creating life should absolutely be part of leftist discourse.
You can't complain about the human condition, ask questions about fair economics but completely ignore something more fundamental, the fairness of creating life.

>>14348
And dooming the human race to a miserable extinction is cruel. You can make suicide easy and safe and readily available.

You’re not a leftist in any meaningful sense. Your views are apolitical because they necessarily reject all political projects and systems. I strongly advise you to leap from a tall building and re-enter the void of non-existence, so the rest of us don’t have to listen to your nihilistic, pathological philosophy.

>>14349
There is nothing good about being a flesh suit, of course it is depressing. sure it has it's moments even people like Ben Goertzel admit to it being a horror show and says that we're deluded for thinking it's a good thing. and he's not even antinatalist but a transhumanist.

>And dooming the human race to a miserable extinction is cruel.
not anon, but it's not cruel if no one had to exist in the first place, especially not as a biological meat bag with a limited life span, who wants to be a rotting carcass?

>>14351
>And dooming the human race to a miserable extinction is cruel.
No it isn't.

>>14351
>I strongly advise you to leap from a tall building and re-enter the void of non-existence, so the rest of us don’t have to listen to your nihilistic, pathological philosophy
Looks like our friend here is using one of those defense mechanisms that Zapffe noted in his essay kek

https://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah

>The whole of living that we see before our eyes today is from inmost to outmost enmeshed in repressional mechanisms, social and individual; they can be traced right into the tritest formulas of everyday life. Though they take a vast and multifarious variety of forms, it seems legitimate to at least identify four major kinds, naturally occuring in every possible combination: isolation, anchoring, distraction and sublimation.
>By isolation I here mean a fully arbitrary dismissal from consciousness of all disturbing and destructive thought and feeling. (Engström: “One should not think, it is just confusing.”) A perfect and almost brutalizing variant is found among certain physicians, who for self-protection will only see the technical aspect of their profession. It can also decay to pure hooliganism, as among petty thugs and medical students, where any sensitivity to the tragic side of life is eradicated by violent means (football played with cadaver heads, and so on.)

There is nothing wrong in using these defense mechanisms though. Even I use it to get by. Just pointing it out

>>14341
>We can solve that in the future by coding a robot to prevent life from emerging by making it nuke the shit out of the planet if any signs of life emerge
<nuke bobot
<made by radicool antinataloids
<last forever with no maintenance
<infinite supply if nukes
<can reach every planet
<infinite fuel
<100% kill rate
magical thinking and supervillain fantasies.

>>14355
>>14341
no need intelligent life likely will snuff it self out anyways. and it's extremely unlikely for something like humanity to ever show up again, the real problem is the wild life.

Antinatalism is cringe because we should aim to outbreed the liberals and fash

>>14353
Pure denialism

>>14355
>last forever with no maintenance
self repairing robot will be a thing eventually

>can reach every planet
No need to. The intelligent life on that planet will eventually develop such technologies for themselves. My opinion is we should focus only on our planet or if needed our solar system… thats enough

>>14356
>Wild life problem
The same point made at the top of the argument. Intelligent life can always reemerge through evolution. Antinatalists want to destroy life because they equate life with suffering. But life finds a way.

>>14359
You have a surprising amount of faith in the ability of technology to solve your problems.

File: 1673446369811.png (982.97 KB, 872x748, r3w.png)

>>14360
I think the wildlife problem can be dealt with by a group of antinatalist scientists getting together from different fields and developing a powerful nuke robot (if any other painless method of eliminating life is found out then I prefer that) in the future as I said. Using the power of technology of the future self repairing mechanism, AI, nanomaterials etc. can be used together to make a highly effective and resilient robot.

>Intelligent life can always reemerge through evolution
Not if we use AI technology based robots to detect and remove forms of advanced life as fast as it emerges in its primitive form. I am talking in the future of course. Such a robot is not entirely possible currently

>>14361
True. I am placing my bet on technology. Human society has advanced using new technologies I think eventually quite ironically it will help in our peaceful demise

>>14362
>AI technology based robots to detect and remove forms of advanced life as fast as it emerges in its primitive form
And this is how you get eldritch machines roaming around the universe culling sapient life folks, don't do it please.

>>14363
The antinataloids ITT aren't even capable of going through with suicide, let alone this HP Lovecraft Rick and Morty fantasy

>>14265

best post

File: 1673452444278.png (1.5 MB, 1000x1500, CamusTeachesElementaryScoh….png)

antinatalism is extremely reddit
>>14253
>Nobody can consent to being brought into existence
no but you can choose to k y s at any time. but you don't, do you?

>>14333
> The antinatalist is simply projecting their unfulfilled desire to commit suicide onto the entire species
/thread

>>14366
> but you can choose to k y s at any time. but you don't, do you
How can we redpill normies if we kill ourselves so soon yaraa? Currently planning to exit life if my health goes downhill at old age from possible amnesia, physical problems etc. Till that I am planning to stay and spread as much anti life propaganda as possible and as far as possible selflessly and for the greater good of sentience here. Gonna save as much life as possible and possibly inspire some mad scientists of the future to nuke it all. Trying ma best

>>14366
>no but you can choose to k y s at any time. but you don't, do you?
Self preservation instinct was also forced upon me without consent.

>>14367
Most antinatalists just want to prevent next generation from being born. Only a tiny minority (like me) want to wipe out currently alive life forms too

File: 1673455364663.gif (1.95 MB, 480x360, happy bender dance.gif)

>>14369
>claims to be anti-life
>lives
>>14370
based and kill all humans pilled

>>14258
This. I don't understand why this topic provokes such insane vitriol. This is primarily a personal ethical choice.
>>14265
>>14339
>>14343
Lots of pure retardation itt.

>>14370
you missed the point entirely

>>14370
thats just fascism porky face the wall xox

>>14252
Could you expand on how adoption could be fraught. I haven't thought much about the ethics of adoption, I understand there is issues with literal baby farms in third world countries, really sad that adoption is a business in some cases. But maybe you, or any other anon, can expand on the ethics of adoption more. The way I see it is in the context of nonhuman animals, it is never ethical to bring them into existence when there are animals up for adoption.

>>14373
I think you didn't understand my point. I said most antinatalists have no plans of suicide. In fact the name of the philosophy itself clarifies it "anti" and "natalism". Its about preventing new life and has nothing to do with life that already exists. Anything else is just my personal opinion

>>14374
I am no porky. Porkies want more labor and slaves not less. I want to wipe clean all forms of life including porkies

>>14375
I don't know that much about it tbh, but I think one problem is that a lot of western adoption agencies are coercive, basically trying to keep mothers from being able to change their minds about giving a kid up for adoption once the process has started. There's also a whole cottage industry of religious adoption agencies that try to guilt women into adopting instead of abortion. There's also the fact that adopting requires absurd sums of money and that by contributing to it you prop up what is essentially a baby market when that money should probably be going to socialized care for kids without parents. You mentioned the problems with third world adoption, and there's also the fact that adopting brown kids if you're white and necessarily removing them from the culture they otherwise would have grown up in is pretty fraught, but then only wanting a white baby when most people in the west want one as well means that brown babies may not get cared for. Essentially, as always, the problem is capitalism, but it seems like both adoption and having your own kid are much more morally difficult on a personal level than, say, shopping at Walmart simply because the effects directly affect someone you love and are responsible for.

>>14376
nihilism is liberalism

>>14378
nihilists don't believe in personal rights, hoomans are born with certain rights and shit like that so its not liberalism

I dont think you need to be a nihilist to be antinatalist anyway, antinatalists of diverse political and belief systems exist

>>14378
How is antinatalism nihilism when it is about giving a fuck by not perpetuating this retarded cycle of suffering

I have the solution to all of this. Not one of you has mentioned it.

>>14264
Based Wobs!!!

>>14381
>>14379
>>14380

because marxism is the ideology of optimism let maos smile shine down on you and fill your heart with revolution also go outside and have sex

>>14264
Which French syndicalists advocated this exactly?

Gladiator War (Graphic Content)

efilist video

Life and existence don't have to be equivalent to suffering for anti-natalism to still generally hold. In fact the claim that "life is bad so don't make more people" is a strictly utilitarian benthamite view and is thus cringe as fuck.

File: 1673509797145.png (545.92 KB, 668x862, 3e.png)

>>14388
Buddhists have similar view. One of the four noble truths in Buddhism is that life is suffering. They project their anti-natal desires on the concept of achieving nirvana from the cycle of birth and death

File: 1673510812780.pdf (1.87 MB, 197x255, Thomas Ligotti - The Consp….pdf)

Best Antinatalism/ Efilism book imo

>>14381
You can kind of derive an antinatalist nihilistic position by simply being "anatalistic"? which is effectively the same thing as an anti-natalist.

>>14382
mention it then…

>>14390
I wouldn't say that Ligotti would take it very kindly to being labeled as part of a potential terrorist group.

>>14393
Well labels have definitions and Ligotti fits into that label. Same way we judge by a persons action if they fit into the definition of vegan or not

>>14390
Audiobook version with subtitles for those who prefer to listen instead or need audio guidance. Chapters are marked in the description of the video.

>>14394
You're just trying to promote your own fart efilist group, the rest of us antinatalists want nothing to do do with you. stop trying to infiltrate.

File: 1673526971551.jpeg (446.53 KB, 1920x1080, clown-pics-and-memes30-80….jpeg)

>>14326
>Antinatalism is just eugenicist.

>>14396
Yeah I know most antinatalists just like you support only extinction of human life but ignores animal suffering and wildlife suffering. Pretty irrational if you ask me

>>14398
We don't ignore animal suffering you idiot, the faggots at r/antinatalism are mostly a bunch of childfree retards that don't know shit about the philosophy. we're just not rushing to get killed by the natalists, the second you attempt do something they'll hunt your asses and make an example out of your messiah inmendham.

>>14399
>the second you attempt do something they'll hunt your asses and make an example out of your messiah inmendham
Inmendham says things as it is. He is not ready to coverup the philosophy with sweet, respectable words and lies in order to make it appealing to the woke/civil/polite society. If people cant accept the truth as it is without sugar coating its better not to expound some sugarcoated half-truths instead

sugar coating is just lying to yourself and others

>>14400
What "truth"? that we're all better off not existing? Ligotti and Benatar already have that covered, Benatar couldn't have made it more obvious when he titled his book "better NEVER to have been".
all inmendham does is recite the same thing but in layman terms on YouTube, he emphasis animal lives as part of the problem more than any other antinatalist, sure ill give him that . but his call to activism is moot. it doesn't take a genius to see why.

File: 1673529745759.jpg (8.14 KB, 336x188, 3rw.jpg)

>>14402
These natalists are bunch of losers that whine "big meany Inmendam said the F word once so your entire philosophy is wong". Society uses these tactics to silence any minority groups and ideas. They used to apply this same tactic with athiesm back when it wasn't mainstream. Thats not Inmendham's fault. He has done his best to make people understand in simple words as you said and therefore has inspired countless activists including me

>Ligotti, Benatar all got it covered
But its in the format of academic books which common folks dont have time or interest to read. That is what differentiates Inmendham. He makes it easily accessible to a wider audience

>>14403
if you think that antinatalistic ideas have any hopes of reaching anywhere near the current audience that atheism/secularism has then you're delusional, I don't know what else to tell you. and even if we get the numbers someday they'll just fight us to death. there are what? 8 billion people on this earth? how many of those are atheists? 1 billion? even atheists are severely outnumbered.

>>14404
>f you think that antinatalistic ideas have any hopes of reaching anywhere near the current audience that atheism/secularism has then you're delusional
Antinatalist ideas are appealing even to the religious folks so don't give up just yet fren. Even religious traditions are ripe with such thoughts of not having the next generation. Maybe you are right and majority of humans will always have this pro life bias but we shouldn't give up just yet over that unverifiable assumption

File: 1673534649988.jpg (53.4 KB, 620x448, voltaire children with leu….jpg)

>>14377
>There's also the fact that adopting requires absurd sums of money
Me and my SO have looked into this and it is ridiculous in the US. Any trailer hobo can pop out an unlimited number of kids they can't afford no problem, but adoption is a nightmare. Not only do the agencies (which are often conservative christian owned/supported) want to go over every penny you've ever spent, they also want to know everything about your personal life. One of the requirements for adoption, regardless of the kid's age, was every power outlet having a plug so they don't stick a fork into it. They do a walk-through of your house and if you fail some insane small thing listed in a 500 book they can deny you instantly. I don't think health inspectors or OSHA are even this pedantic. I really have no idea how anyone can qualify to adopt a kid unless they're a literal millionaire.

>if you're white and necessarily removing them from the culture they otherwise would have grown up in is pretty fraught
I'm not sure what the big deal is? People move around all the time, did my parents "steal" something from me when they moved countries when I was 2 years old? Are brown children entitled to a culture of those with similar genetics to them?

>>14406
Damn leukemiacs, I knew it

>>14406
>(which are often conservative christian owned/supported)
do they discriminate against none religious adopting parents? is that a thing in the US?

>>14281
>Pretty irrelevant subculture that is talked about too much online in proportion to its actual influence.

it's growing

File: 1673894591778.jpeg (476.68 KB, 828x1105, 6AD9DAC9-3D45-4F20-83A4-F….jpeg)


>>14410
The People's Commisariat of Noticing has hereby officially assigned the status of: NOTICED to the Twitter screenshot of post 1335096 therein, by LeftThingNoticer

>>14410
Is it wrong that I legitimately want these PAAU fuckers gulaged?

>>1329034
>But the thing is this - natalism and antinatalism are equally retarded and ridiculous
<natalism
No such concept. It's like how Holocaust denialists make it seem like an academic exercise when they talk about "crematists".

>>14326
>Antinatalism is just eugenicist.
And a shitty one, adding insult to injury. Living in South Africa and thinking that there's "too many people" there is a legitimate idea. Just like the idea of eating cereal all day.

Note that legitimate idea doesn't mean "good" or anything. Just that it's an idea that can't be shrugged off.

Now, does anyone think that Benatar's book Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence will impact anyone in South Africa?

>>14324
>Antinatalism is stupidity because it will lead to the extinction of people who are sensitive enough to recognize the problems of our world and transformed our species into a retard breeder one
This!

People don't reproduce thru sex anymore, but thu brainwashing. Memes>genes. Anti-natalists can focus on the more effective strategies when breeders just provide them with more hosts.

>>14410
I see nothing but liberals in that screenshot.

I'm not reading all that gay shit you internet lassalles wrote.
Now give me a quick rundown on why should I listen to some childless guys in their early 20s rave about how breeding is based and whatever pilled.

Any serious anti-natal position that isn't just some meme tier "lmao nuke the planet!" shit is going to inherently require that we get to a socialist society so that we can actually get our own species' destinty back into our own hands. Same thing goes for any kind of trans-human political ideology, which can be made perfectly compatible with anti-natalist political ideology.No matter how you look at the situation, we are not going to be able to move past the current problems for so long as we are held here by the system and its profit-deterministic methodology of decisionmaking.

>>14371
Good post

>>14376
>. Its about preventing new life and has nothing to do with life that already exists.
there's no way to "prevent new life" without fucking with life that already exists

>I think you didn't understand my point.
lmao, i absolutely did.

>>14369
>Self preservation instinct was also forced upon me without consent.
simply sit on the edge of a tall building, and read a comfy book until you fall asleep

>>14341
>natalists forced life on us
imagine thinking life was forced on you by a coherent group with a coherent ideology when in fact a woman simply got pregnant with you

>>14356
>no need intelligent life likely will snuff it self out anyways
[citation needeed]
>it's extremely unlikely for something like humanity to ever show up again
[citation needed]

>>14359
>using a self repairing robot to wipe out all life instead of making technology that makes life more worth living.

shiggy diggy

>>14336
I'm not an antinatalist tho

File: 1673956972026.jpg (184.62 KB, 1024x784, lenin desk.jpg)

>>14252
>I don't think I myself would be able to live with the guilt of bringing a life into a world as full of suffering as this on currently is. If we lived in a different world, I'm sure my calculus would be different, but the way the situation is now, I can't personally do it.

<From the point of view of the working class, however, it would hardly be possible to find a more apposite expression of the completely reactionary nature and the ugliness of “social neomalthusianism” than Mr. Astrakhan’s phrase cited above.

<… “Bear children so that they can be maimed” … For that alone? Why not that they should fight better, more unitedly, consciously and resolutely than we are fighting against the present-day conditions of life that are maiming and ruining our generation?

<This is the radical difference that distinguishes the psychology of the peasant, handicraftsman, intellectual, the petty bourgeois in general, from that of the proletarian. The petty bourgeois sees and feels that he is heading for ruin, that life is becoming more difficult, that the struggle for existence is ever more ruthless, and that his position and that of his family are becoming more and more hopeless. It is an indisputable fact, and the petty bourgeois protests against it.

<But how does he protest?

<He protests as the representative of a class that is hopelessly perishing, that despairs of its future, that is depressed and cowardly. There is nothing to be done … if only there were fewer children to suffer our torments and hard toil, our poverty and our humiliation—such is the cry of the petty bourgeois.

<The class-conscious worker is far from holding this point of view. He will not allow his consciousness to be dulled by such cries no matter how sincere and heartfelt they may be. Yes, we workers and the mass of small proprietors lead a life that is filled with unbearable oppression and suffering. Things are harder for our generation than they were for our fathers. But in one respect we are luckier than our fathers. We have begun to learn and are rapidly learning to fight—and to fight not as individuals, as the best of our fathers fought, not for the slogans of bourgeois speechifiers that are alien to us in spirit, but for our slogans, the slogans of our class. We are fighting better than our fathers did. Our children will fight better than we do, and they will be victorious.

<The working class is not perishing, it is growing, becoming stronger, gaining courage, consolidating itself, educating itself and becoming steeled in battle. We are pessimists as far as serfdom, capitalism and petty, production are concerned, but we are ardent optimists in what concerns the working-class movement and its aims. We are already laying the foundation of a new edifice and our children will complete its construction.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/29.htm

>>14427
things that are tangibly not happening now.

>>14428
You're right. When Lenin wrote that things were a million times worse for the vast majority of the worlds population

File: 1673964929815.jpg (100.85 KB, 398x563, LF.jpg)

>>14251
defeatist nonsense. the prattling of the broken-spirited who think that pain cannot be relieved and that bleeding cannot be staunched. the fact of the matter is, if you so wish for the future generation not to suffer as we do then it's better to fight for such a future than to simply let it pass through your fingers, because children will keep being born, regardless of your ideology and they will keep suffering until capitalism has been utterly routed.

>>14251
I didn't read all of this but I'm natalist because if I can't breed others probably should so the population doesn't die, plus have you ever watched bluey? retard

File: 1673972996746.jpg (41.58 KB, 640x640, 8iacqt2hm6831-1814406483.jpg)

>>14430
>defeatist nonsense. the prattling of the broken-spirited who think that pain cannot be relieved and that bleeding cannot be staunched.

>>14413
This. plus nobody calls themselves a "natalist".

Good topic

>>14414
it's not, you moron. it's not about population control,

>>14421
Yes the self autonomy of a rapist SHOULD be violated if it prevents harm. the rapist in this case is the natalist.

File: 1673983160351.jpg (64.26 KB, 700x682, DDDDDDDDDD.jpg)

>>14432

>>14251
Idealist philosophy.

https://twitter.com/prolifesf/status/1615773428883099648

Cringe.

>>14436
I want you to call your mom and tell her she is a rapist for giving birth to you. and to record that conversation, and her reaction, and post it here.

>>14436
when I said
>there's no way to "prevent new life" without fucking with life that already exists

I wasn't talking about the lives of "natalists" (i.e. people who have children) but literally all of society, which would rapidly shrink and come to a grinding halt. Every human alive who makes it to old age would have to die without younger nurses, doctors, caretakers, etc. There would be no one left to ensure safety, to produce goods, to provide services, to ensure smooth and orderly functioning of life. The last humans would die the most miserable of all, just so the antinatalists could be satisfied with an abstract "end of suffering" that isn't even guaranteed since intelligent life could and statistically would eventually reemerge, either in this universe, or some other.

>>14440
Giving birth to someone without their consent is similar to forcing somebody to have sex without their consent. Seething about it wont change that fact
>I want you to call your mom and tell her she is a rapist for giving birth to you. and to record that conversation, and her reaction
That would be a rude behavior so I don't think anyone would do that, but the above fact still stands

>>14441
It would still be better than continuing the species. One generation will suffer yes but it will wipe out the suffering of many hundreds if not thousands of generations which would otherwise have been born. No more cancer, no more heartbreaks, no more mental diseases, no more tragedies etc.

>>14443
This.

>>14442
>Giving birth to someone without their consent is similar to forcing somebody to have sex without their consent.
In what way? I'm ok with certain kinds of consent, and not with others. What makes these two equivalent outside of your own moral sentiments?

File: 1674255737236.gif (624.51 KB, 326x326, activates almonds.gif)

Worth bringing up again: Anti-natalism and transhumanism can absolutely be in the same boat, and "ending the species" isn't necessarily there at all. Resolving the ethical quandries we're in aren't always limited to single-outcome solutions.
Of note, any of these require humanity to be in control of its own decisions on what constraints there are on society - which means ending the singular hold on economic life that the profit motive currently has.

>>14446
>technological progress is going to fix our shitty lives
the 18th century called and they want their cope back

>>14312
Lol, what lame and flowery platitudes
>So carelessly doth the bull depart with his seed into my wife's orifice
>Trembling, I stare into the cream pie, the face of Yaldaboth looks back, ceaseless agony awaits the cuckson soon to be blasted needlessly into samsara

>>14409
And being rightfully clowned on.

>>14409
>it's growing
proof?

>>14447
Because the capacity of technological progress to do so is also a social issue. This is well known. But we can't forget that the technological challenge is still there.

>>14450
Well I don't have concrete proof, but it's definitely growing, it gained a lot of traction in the past decade especially. look up social media pages or groups or subreddits and it went up a bit on google trends, it's almost definitely at a surplus but not in any meaningful way.

File: 1674376138500.png (535.25 KB, 924x340, Screen Shot 2022-12-16 at ….png)

110 years later and this aged like fine wine.

>>14453
show us page 18.

Environmentalist liberalism and nihilistic misanthropes have found the woke way to repeat eugenics and fascistic "Billions must die" rhetoric. Life is not evil and isn't eternally steeped in negativity and badness. Leftists, socialists, and communists instead should perhaps learn from the religious, like the Abrahamics, for one prominent example, who figured out this out already when they moved on from fatalistic worship of whatever "natural" idols.

File: 1674385021905-0.png (182.28 KB, 640x483, figure1-26-w640.png)

File: 1674385021905-1.jpg (38.96 KB, 600x387, republican-states-children….jpg)

File: 1674385021905-2.gif (7.38 MB, 640x640, sneed-cat-based.gif)

Thankfully most people in this thread immediately nipped this shit in the bud real quick but just in case here is billionaire Ted Turner supporting depopulation.
https://youtu.be/v0MWJX1Un8g
There was another video of him being confronted on the street saying the same thing.
In addition here are birth statistics from the ever present fact that right wingers have higher birth rates than center to leftists as well as a gif I accidentally grabbed but am too lazy to remove, illustrating the importance of establishing a new generation keeping up with the continuation of beliefs.
Lest you wish for leftism to die out and a subserviently raised right wing slave class to be all that's left, which will inevitably be whittled down to the desired numbers by people in power anyway. I would go as far as to say John Carpenter was wrong, the rich and powerful don't want you to breed, they want you to stop breeding, because at a certain point it's more beneficial to keep a more manageable crop than it would be to just maximize growth to unstable levels, and antinatalism is playing into their hands.

>>14456 ii
>muh billionaire supports depopulation
There are billionaire who support more population too like infamous Musk : https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/billionaire-elon-musk-claims-population-collapse-poses-higher-risk-than-global-warming/articleshow/94624566.cms

Billionaires support and disagree on many things doesn't make it right or wrong. What matters is strength of the arguments.

>Dumbfuck rightoids are having more kids and we face the danger of being outbred
Of course we are let them outbreed and destroy themselves eventually with their stupid conspiracy theories. Most of the COVID related death were also among these rightoids due to their paranoia and false beliefs. Its sad in a way but world be like that

File: 1674409437838.png (76.31 KB, 825x625, 2020_large.png)

>>14456
>3rd map
here we can clearly see the depopulation agenda being used as a form of eugenics, a form of genocide against a variety of nations within the united states.

>>14453
I love how in this pamphlet he’s literally talking about killing bosses and sliding on the scabs but nooooo it’s the birth strike shit that triggers you.

>>14454
What’s on page 18?

File: 1674415201520.png (2.07 MB, 2800x1816, ClipboardImage.png)

>they're outbreeeeeeding usssss!
<meanwhile

>>14461
>conservatives and republicans
what about other rightard parties like lolberts and other reactionaries like ukip?

File: 1674415951125.png (2.98 MB, 4096x2979, ClipboardImage.png)

>>14462
The anglophone right has openly declared war on its younger generations.
Almost like people's environments have a big impact on them and it's not just parentage/lineages.

>>14459
>sliding on
Fuck off this isn’t r/chiraqology.

>>14455
>Leftists, socialists, and communists instead should perhaps learn from the religious, like the Abrahamics

>we need to learn from the delusional fuckwits
no thank you

We need to carve out a statue for Inmendham once he passes out someday. that basement dweller sure earned one.

>>14456
>Lest you wish for leftism to die out and a subserviently raised right wing slave class to be all that's left, which will inevitably be whittled down to the desired numbers by people in power anyway.

Children don't inherit their parents' ideology…

File: 1674446156226.png (1.1 MB, 954x786, Screen Shot 2023-01-22 at ….png)

>>14454
>>14460
This is page 18.

>>14464
To be fair, most of this militant labour activism happened in Chicago.

>>14467
>Children don't inherit their parents' ideology…
Only apolitical parents, anyone who raises them in political education will most certainly empress onto them their values, and right wingers in specific as well as the few liberals with kids now more than ever are certainly planning on indoctrinating kids from birth, because it works.

File: 1674465828306.png (65.88 KB, 500x303, 1652556855885.png)

>>14469
>because it works.

>>14468
That shit reads like he was trying to write his own version of The Revolutionary Catechism.

>>14470
While studies differ on outcome based on year of publishing, my source is that I made it the fuck up based on the first hand knowledge I know applies to right wingers espousing how retarded they are and talking about their parents teaching them.

Not very related to the topic but here is a horror short film I saw, released recently, related to cosmic horror stories (fear of unknown and incomprehensible ) written by Thomas Ligotti

In a Foreign Town

>>14264
Birth strike should be the actual slogan of the abortion rights movement, not “my body my choice”.

File: 1674496127369.jpg (168.64 KB, 600x320, b1f7c2fbac0fbe5c30892aee6c….jpg)

>>14472
>anecdotal evidence based on survivorship bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States
Pro-natalism was the cornerstone of the bible's "fruitful and multiplying" patriotic settler idpol which is basically the founding text of fascism, as seen in the nazi eugenics rape farms (Jeffrey Epstein's Harvard friends soyfacing at the idea right now)
>>14264
>they have no vision for the future, they only seek to destroy never create
Satanic bugmen: "The Great Reset is happening and that's good. Your child will be a holocaust slave and there is nothing you can do to stop it…noooo you can't kill your baby!!! You Jews in these trains are such stupid hopeless nihilists who don't understand evolution smh"
>>14456
>here are birth statistics from the ever present fact that right wingers have higher birth rates than center to leftists
"the fact" nice idealism, like the comment I replied to. This non-material view ignores how people who live under a developed society tend to have fewer kids regardless of any anarcho-syndicalist nerds writing zines, and people in undeveloped impoverished areas tend to have tons of kids regardless of whatever ideas are floating around in the discourse. Please read Marx and learn HistMat, please
>>14384
>marxism is the ideology of optimism
Marxism is a SCIENCE that does a historical materialist critique of liberal ideology. Instead of rationalizing the status quo, it's about struggling with contradictions to gain understanding of these dialectical systems. Radlibs give these thought terminating cliche NPC dialog like "why don't you just kys lol" to uncomfortable questions because they cannot struggle with the grim Darwinian evolutionary system we're trapped in (read Mutual Aid)

>>14476
> a developed society tend to have fewer kids regardless of any anarcho-syndicalist nerds writing zines, and people in undeveloped impoverished areas tend to have tons of kids regardless of whatever ideas are floating around in the discourse.
Because people understand the basics of leaving behind a lineage and know the more children, the better of a chance there is, this is just basic math.

>>14476
Holy fuck 10/10 post right here.

>>14476
>Pro-natalism was the cornerstone of the bible's "fruitful and multiplying" patriotic settler idpol which is basically the founding text of fascism,
Pronatalism has nothing to do with slavery, colonialism or fascism. In fact it’s the opposite. The Comstock Laws which banned contraception were actually very pro-woman because women’s groups at the time were concerned how it destroyed marriage by making sex consequence-free. You’ll notice the same people who wanted slavery abolished also wanted contraception abolished too.

>The Comstock Laws which banned contraception were actually very pro-woman because women’s groups at the time were concerned how it destroyed marriage by making sex consequence-free.
So they did (and that's a good thing.)

I'm an asshole so I'll ignore all the discussion above and just post my thoughts. Antinatalism is a stupid belief by pseudointellectuals who lack any real critical thinking skills. Simple as. I'm saying this as somebody who was likely brought into this world by a mother who only wanted the status of being a mother - and cared not for the actual process of nurturing a child. If anything, I should be fully behind antinatalism, as my life has been rife with suffering and misery from the beginning. And yet, I refuse to take that brown pill that is this ridiculous clownshow of a worldview.
In essence, antinatalism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The premise is that "life is suffering, and therefore we should not bring any new life into the world." The issue then comes when you look at the results of such a belief, all those currently alive today who are young, and those whose parents refused to abide by the antinatalist doctrine, will grow and live in a world that refuses to improve and is marked by a sense of decay and lethargy. Because of this, the world will become worse, and those alive will suffer more. It's not an ideology; it's a paradox.

File: 1674503195521.png (552.3 KB, 675x652, 3rw.png)

>>14481
>I am fine with suffering so others should also be okay with it
>continues to impose life on more generations with this logic

Just consider when you bring life you are imposing the risk of accidents, cancer, rare diseases and countless other problems on to somebody. Think very carefully what you are doing

>>14482
>let me just explain to you how YOU'RE the one making life more miserable for future generations, and not me, even though I refuse to make life less miserable for those who will live beyond my years
face
wall

>>14484
There are countless children waiting to be adopted, don't need to bring more life into this world for that

>>14482
>Antinatalism is about preventing suffering
Fuck off, you're just too much of a pussy to commit voluntary species wide suicide.

>>14485
90% of adoption is just glorified human trafficking

>>14487
Then be the 10%. Be the change you want to see like Mr. Gandhi said. No excuse to reproduce

>>14486
Most coherent natalist

>>14485
Except most of the kids in the foster care system aren't "waiting to be adopted" but waiting to be returned to their bio families. FC is meant to keep families together.

What's everyone's thoughts on this? Is this eugenics or healthcare?
https://twitter.com/AvaGrac46763969/status/1590565392766078976

File: 1674512811335.png (50.54 KB, 171x158, ClipboardImage.png)

>>14488
>ghandi

Birth strike theme song

What's a natal

>>14490
The US meddling in other countries' birth control is being done to perpetuate a status quo that keeps the US on top, and nothing more. Nobody should be in favor of it, including anti-natalists.

>>14490
vasectomy in itself is not "evil" of course, it should be voluntary

anytime a conversation about sustainable growth or limiting population growth comes up
>muh malthusian
>muh evil
>conversation ends

>>14493
A moron, buffoon, imbecile, fucktard, dipshit, asshole, prick, cunt, shithead, bastard, clown, criminal… a human.

>>14497
Misanthrope kys

>>14496
No shit?

>>14251
Its cringe we already figured that out a million threads ago.

Antinatalism basic intro

>>14307
>If you hate living so much go jump in the middle of the ocean, see if you really hate that you were brought Into the world without your consent then.
Noo, that would bring me attention that I cannot savor! :^)

literally everybody itt is a childless loser lol

>>14503
Enjoy paying someone else's expenses for at least two decades, oh and being forever directly responsible for the piece of shit that you took out on the world.

File: 1674612015092.jpeg (91.75 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault-1118849659.jpeg)

>>14440
I should sue my parents for giving birth to me. for raping my consciousness from the quite void.

>>14503
"loser"… people throw that word around a lot to keep people in line with societal norms. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

File: 1674663364501.jpg (10.35 KB, 224x225, dragons.jpg)

It is more or less the same as being a defeatist .

To the anti-natalist the world is so irredeemably horrible that not having children is the only logical choice, since having children would be needlessly cruel.

The counter argument is that if we live in an age of dragons we should raise our children to be dragon slayers. In dystopian times we need more people willing to fight against the 1% rather than fewer people if it is to be overcome and for better times to come.

>>14503
have fun changing daipers. Now excuse me me and my fur-baby have a full day of doing whatever the fuck we want.

>>14508
Good bait, love to see the subtlety, truly hard to find these days.

>>14506
Are you healthy in your mom's basement? Surely you're "anxiety" will die down enough to let you work next year?

>>14508
Fur babies leave a alot of poop and fur about the place.

>>14508
>Furbaby
I don't care if it's a bait post, I need to tell everyone here that I fucking hate the concept of a "furbaby". It's the ultimate form of surrender and coping on the behalf of yourself and reproduction.
To adopt a dog or a cat into the precarious position of replacing the spot where an infant of your own creation was to be in your life is first inhumane to the animal. Even Chimpanzees, noted for being scarily similar to man, cannot comprehend nor cope with humanity. And yet you wish to take an animal and place it in a situation where it cannot understand its own purpose? It is sick.
And then we think to what it means to have a "furbaby"; in the end, it infers that you want a child, but are too blinded by pride, ego, and sloth to bear or sire one. And as a result, by the time your "furbaby" grows old and withers, you will be at a point where you realized this whole time you truly wanted a child, but it would be too late to have one. You have chosen to condemn yourself to a fate that makes death all the more sour.

>>14510
poor assumptions

Hatred of antinatalism is often anthropocentric narcissism.

People only care about children as means of extending their "legacy".
They don't care about children as human beings.


And the people that are antinatalists are usually misopediacs.

I'm antinatalist out of concern for future generations and because marriage and parenthood are oversold as automatic entitlement/virtues of adulthood.

Everyone whines about the world going to shit because of opposing beliefs yet, no one asks if its better to reduce human presence from the equation overall.

We as a species have eight billion members with reduced land for agriculture and domiciled, our industrial revolution has left behind byproducts that's poisoned the soil, Air and water.

Yet, we still think that reducing our presence is bad?

Realistically, how would you increase birthrates now that the majority of AFAB people today are making it clear they DO NOT want to be mothers?

FUCKING KEK

>>14512
This. People whom refer to their pets as babies yet are vocally misopediac are funny. They complain about children being expensive and savage, yet they spend hundreds/thousands of dollrs on expensive toys, pet food, or other programs for their pet.

They make social media posts about therpet, yet think chikdren gettn any ounce of positive attention from strangers is "creepy/narcissistic."

They also have to clean up their pets bodily wastes.

They think dogs slobbering peoples faces is cute yet while get upset about children being messy in the play.

>>14517
damn that strawman got annihilated

>>14507
>hard timesmakes strong men

God I hate that sentiment.
People whom encourage hardship/conflict on newer generations as means to "prove themselves" are zero-empathy.

Theyre usually sheltered rich boomers or failsons whose experience with masculinity is through movies/comic books.

Sufferng isnt a virtue.
Its so easy, that people create it for themselves all the time. Theyre born into it.

All hoe stories about rags to riches are one out of a hundred thousand .
Hard times doesnt make people virtuous. It exposes their selfish cynical desires.

It creates fascist sentiment.

>>14518
But what Im saying is true.

>>14519
>Strawman argument against fascism.

Refusing to lay down and die because times are hard is not a fashst sentiment.

Encouraging people to refuse to use the most effective way of continuing the fight to overthrow a fascist/capitalist dystopia is the real fascist sentiment since it plays right into their plans , they want opposition to go away forever. And the most efficient way to do that is to encourage their opponents to not have children. The 1% are masters of playing the long game.

You can bet the fascists are having plenty of kids while they encourage their opponents to have none. So that they will be unopposed in a generation or two.

Having at least enough healthy and well educated children to act as replacements should be the duty of every socialist, So that opposition to capitalism never dies.

>>14515
I wouldn't. I think we all need to bite the bullet that birthrates in most of the West are never going to recover, and instead look for ways to expand production without needing a drastic population increase.

>>14251
They are infantile and moralizing worms. Consequently, they are accomplices of the capitalists and do not deserve any pity.

>>14523
What you described sounds like a natalist to me

File: 1674872104706.jpg (859.37 KB, 3644x2628, 3rqda.jpg)

Pic rel : David Benatar's Asymmetry picturized

Most of us wouldn't accept 10 minutes of intense pleasure for 10 minutes of most excruciating pain. The pleasures don't make up for the pains

>>14524
Then you're a retard.

Tragedy can strike Anywhere, Anytime, Anyone
( video was made by a burger so it has related bias but the message implied is what matters )

Even if our political or economic system changes the problems of life itself remain. So its very important to consider such grim questions bfr giving birth to somebody imo

File: 1674893783230.png (25.64 KB, 701x468, ClipboardImage.png)


>>14525
There is more to life than pleasure and pain

>>14529
What good is inexistence for the planet if noone is around to see it? Typical malthusian green-eco genocidal agenda

>>14530
Yep but the question of "pain and pleasure" are pivotal to life and inescapable

>>14531
The graph is arguing for having less children not none at all

>What good is inexistence
Its good for sentient life who otherwise would have been here and suffer. Look at planet mars for example. Literally no Martian exists to run around in fear of missing out anything and suffering too does not exist

>>14532
"Less children" isn't really an anti-natal position though.

File: 1674895378133.png (Spoiler Image,587.18 KB, 647x363, 3rwr.png)

>>14532 o o
Infact to add to that pain and pleasure are very pivotal. You dont want your child to fall victim to thousands of diseases, accidents, cancer, rare disorders (pic rel Harlequin ichthyosis ), natural disasters and countless other tragedies. Life is a game on a knifes edge

Gruesome image warning

>>14533
No but I am saying for natalists who consider to have kids. As an antinatalist something is better than nothing

>>14535
as an anti-natalist it's important to realize that the most important thing is that we get in control of our society so that we can actually have meaningful changes instead of just individualist, incoherent mess.

>>14536
Yep that's true. Have to join some anitnatalist groups and start influencing politics. All tools like abortion rights, access to contraceptives, vasectomy etc. should be encouraged and made legal

Can we all admit that dismal birthrates in the West are going to be the kiss of death for capitalism, because without a consistently high amount of population growth capital can no longer grow and will end up falling into imminent crisis?

Emma Goldman and Margaret Sanger were right.

>>14538
Immigration might help them for some time but with increasing development across the world people will start preferring other countries to the west so even that loophole is running out

Anti-antinatalism is just poorly disguised anti abortion, anti contraceptive, climate change denialism and pro capitalist propoganda.

>>14539
That, and immigration numbers are never consistent. I remember how right after the 2008 financial crash many Mexican immigrants went back to Mexico (I was living in California at the time). Immigration numbers also plummeted during the pandemic for obvious reasons.

>>14538
SOON PRIVATIZED AUTOMATION. CAPITALISTS WONT NEED LARGE WORK POPULATIONS. THE THIRD WORLD WILL BE BOMBED BY AI. GET READY.

>>14542
AI can't even draw hands right

>>14542
AI and automation are dead labour which don't generate any actual value.

>>14442
>i didn't consent to something that happened between consenting adults before I existed, it's just like rape!!!
you didn't consent because you didn't exist to give consent. It's not like rape at all. If you were somehow able to go back in time and express non-consent to being born, before you were born, and your parents complied, then you would have never existed, and then you would have never been able to go back in time and express your non-consent. This "my parents raped me into existing" shit is so cringe and not even logically consistent. Also it's insulting to actual victims of rape.

>>14544
>engineers do LABOR and invent a self-checkout machine
>cashier gets fired from cashier job
>cashier gets replaced with self-check-out machine
<i-it's dead labor and doesn't create real value!

copius maximus

>>14546
That contributes to the declining rate of profit

>>14251
Anti natalism is a viable anti capitalist strategy. only labor can produce value therefore reducing the number of workers is reducing the profit of capitalism, barring insane productivity increases from technological means and innovations which is also slowing down.

>>14322
You're an egoist like everyone else, you just don't accept it

>>14548
Just take a look at how many capitalist op-eds soyraging at le depopulation crisis in Europe and Japan to realize that anti-natalism is a viable strategy. In fact, de-natalism is probably a far greater threat to capitalist hegemony than USSR had ever been at any point in its history, not only because denatalism is collapsing rate of profit far more than even technological innovations, population decline is causing an apocalyptic disaster in the infrastructure and real estate markets that traditionally has been the golden field of speculation for the international bourgeoisie.
Of course, most people simply can't be asked to make such a great sacrifice as not having a genetic offsprings, as in our materialistic world leaving behind viable offsprings is the most objective measurement of self-worth, but increasing cost of living will force them anyway regardless of our personal idealism

>>14550
>wobbly supporting birth striking
Nothing has changed in 110 years, has it?

>>14551
I'm not supporting birth strikes, i'm just stating that it is very effective. In the sense WW3 and climate apocalyse will be very effective against capitalism. In the past i would've posted that silly jak pointing at facts signboard with a serious hat to convince you just how matter of factly i'm speaking

File: 1675928213313.png (313.11 KB, 596x986, Screen Shot 2023-02-08 at ….png)

What do we think?

>>14553
tell this retard that Marx made fun of Malthus and Marxism has been opposed to Malthusianism from the beginning

>>14554
You first.
https://twitter.com/AvaGrac46763969/status/1623531097693859840

>>14553
>Destruction of suburbs
LMFAO HAHHAH. No genuine traditionalist will soyface over suburbs, which really is just an attempt by white americans to maintain urban livings without actually having to live in the cities (and be near blacks) this shit is so obviously catering to Americanoids its not even funny

>>14556
I want to know why she thinks birth control is being "pushed" on anyone. The courts are about to make the abortion pill illegal in America and several states are already thinking about banning IUDs and the pill.

>>14557
Boomers are like this, they are befuddled by the thought that someone is not following the same lifestyle as they did (i.e raising kids) and since they're raised with idealistic narratives of good vs evil they assumed that this is the action of some bad faith actors (i.e jews)

>>14555
i'm not going to make a twitter account to drive more clicks for Musk. I'm simply calling out retards as I see em

>>14553
Graphic design is my passion.

antinatalists be like

still can't believe LGBT is banished to siberia but this isn't

>>14550
>as in our materialistic world leaving behind viable offsprings is the most objective measurement of self-worth
why the actual hell do people believe this

>>14560
It's not a poorly-designed image at all.

>>14556
>No genuine traditionalist will soyface over suburbs

There's no such thing as a 'genuine traditionalist', they're all either Leave to Beaver 50s faggots or LARPers that want to live in an Isekai, and none of them know shit about any actual traditional skills/lifestyles

That many who live under the domination of capitalism don't think that they can or want to have children any time soon is very understandable and, to be candid, mostly the correct sentiment to have. But there nonetheless is some very depraved nihilism, which can be often encountered online, of the pessimistic and cynical sort of antinatalist ideology, which takes the despondent attitudes of predominantly imperial core Americans and the wealthy liberal West about the future, and presumes to justify via such anxious attitudes the extinction of all humanity.
If the truly optimal course of action, as the devoted antinatalists and the ecofascists claim, is to have humanity commit suicide, then what have all the sacrifices of the past, the shared treasures of all humanity, and the work and much more that the previous generations offered to the present ones been for? Everyone lives on the gifts bequeathed upon them, from the ones who lived before the current day; everyone is supported from the moment of their conception on the shoulders of the collective humanity, both past and present, and none who are human are truly not dependent on anyone whatsoever. How can you have the belief that humanity was some great mistake and go on yet to face your parents who nurtured you, your family, your collective caretakers throughout life from society, all the martyrs who have tried to protect the future for humankind's posterity, and all of humanity that came before you and gave their labor and blood?
And very likely most of these nihilistic antinatalists don't even truly believe their own misanthropic ideology. Perhaps technically life is purposeless and this existence is but silly spooks, but nevertheless that someone decides to not discontinue oneself's life means that that person still believes implicitly that life isn't all no worth and still believes that there is purpose for life.

File: 1676676276885.jpeg (551.62 KB, 828x1169, 4DFDD63A-3A2E-48C6-BE7D-0….jpeg)

Bruh….

>>14566
Queer and Catholic

>>14567
I fucking hate those people.

>>14566
When have abortion bans ever lead to better outcomes for women?

The Soviet Union only banned abortion because they were trying to move towards communal care of children (exactly what this astroturfed cunt is talking about) and believed once that happened no one would ever want abortion. Turns out that was a pile of horseshit as there were still close to a million abortions going on in the USSR after Stalin banned it.

File: 1677380832225.png (594.36 KB, 800x450, ClipboardImage.png)


>>14565
>shame
>shame
>shame
>lol kill urself
wow, what a lot of hot air that was.

File: 1677382539393.webm (7.57 MB, 720x720, Against_Antinatalism.webm)

>>14565
Great post comrade. I found it inspiring.

File: 1677383511585.jpg (42.51 KB, 736x862, 1154cac55dea644eb9351f02b6….jpg)

>>14565
I read your post, word for word, it was inspiring and beautiful anon. You are a true comrade

>>14565
> that someone decides to not discontinue oneself's life means that that person still believes implicitly that life isn't all no worth and still believes that there is purpose for life
Its not simplistic as you put it. The real reason nihilistic types like me don't kill ourself has many other reasons :
>fear of fucking up the attempt due to illegality of painless methods of suicide
>irrational attachment to parents, dog etc.

>>14574
>>irrational attachment to parents, dog etc.

>>14566
Jesuits get the bullet too.

>>14575
But still the person does not believe there is a purpose for life. They know its simply attachment resulting from having a primitive brain shaped by evolution

>>14575
attachment is by definition not a rational thing but an emotional one.

File: 1677386285408.jpg (65.88 KB, 480x608, 103.jpg)

>>14577
>But still the person does not believe there is a purpose for life. They know its simply attachment resulting from having a primitive brain shaped by evolution
And they are a fool for trusting their own brain to consider it simple. True or not, life with or without meaning is in your hands to shape how you, the inheriter sees fit and within the confines of material conditions that will allow it so. If it is meaningless then embrace the empty and make it serve your whims, if the should be any meaning found, it is through a continuous struggle against a meaningless fate.

>>14579
That cartoon is absolute cope to continue living.
>will you fight ? Or will you perish like a dog?
Nope. Everyone will perish in the end. Its only a matter of how quick or how late. Kys and escape this stupid life game as soon as possible

Be courageous like Michelstaedter, Philipp Mainländer and end it all. Overdrive the mental defense mechanisms with strong blows of rational thought

Fucking KEK(don't give views to random rightoids by linking their videos)

File: 1677390191092.png (606.2 KB, 610x1000, Screen Shot 2023-02-26 at ….png)

What do we think of this froggy?

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Huot_(1846-1930)

>>14448
He is a terrible writer, don't know what people see in him

>>14582
i'm not watching your video /pol/yp

>>14571
no lie most arguments against nihilism I read online are some variation of "kys" just with different degrees pompousness.

>>14580
Take your own advice, I'll be standing over your grave

File: 1677443872602.png (399.39 KB, 760x540, 1669587243223.png)

>>14586
>>14571

>>14583
Way too based.

>all this loathing for living
>Never considered doing anything other than lamenting
https://youtu.be/nnJmA9_dkP0
I'm tired of petulant children airing their grievances, touch grass

>>14588

>>14587
>>14590
lol

>>14591
>person A says X
<Person B says person A says Y
>person A says "No, I said X"
<Person B finds an example of person C saying Y

wooooow good job

File: 1677455414963.png (732 KB, 890x1092, Screen Shot 2023-02-26 at ….png)


>>14592
>anon discovers /leftypol/ is not one person

File: 1677482324919.png (102.74 KB, 480x360, 2edq.png)

>>14587
I will take you also with me to the beautiful void if you plan on doing acts fren

>>14566
People like this need to be driven out of the left for good.

>>14253
There is no suffering that entails from existence
Please kill yourself for the greater good

Assumptions: The Thread

>>14598
I'm assuming you're from reddit and henceforth need to tell you to go back

File: 1677946066519.jpg (53.22 KB, 900x696, 1641450264103.jpg)

>>14599
>Implying
>Henceforth

File: 1677957429430.jpg (23.28 KB, 640x480, joka bby.jpg)

I have yet to see an argument against antinatalism that isn't ad hominem

Bro, who cares.
Tired of people making lifestyle choices political

But kids are one of the greatest proclamations of one's stake in the goal of communist future. Perhaps the Western leftists might be more competent if they had to always take into consideration the effects of their policies on their own children down the line. Too easy 4 leftoids to call 4 the abolishment of any form of public govt. and authority, to oppose any state activity, and to abolish all laws when they don't have kids that have to be cared 4 constantly.

File: 1678223496958.jpg (14.91 KB, 240x240, mario montano face.jpg)

https://vitrifyher.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/antinatalism-in-purgatory/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqeN2RRR3xQ

>I’m an antinatalist. I think it’s unforgivable to bring new people into this world given that there is suffering. The thing is that lately I’ve been thinking and feeling that people aren’t real. This would partially solve the problem of evil. There is just my suffering and everyone else is a simulation designed to spite me. This should cause me to not feel so antinatalist since the breeders are disgusting alien mockeries of a true human being, namely myself. Yet somehow I still feel very antinatalist. When I see children with their parents I am disgusted at the entire concept. They are probably just facets of the simulation and not souls brimming with the inner light of awareness like myself. And yet they still move me enough to cause disgust. I suppose that was the intention of the designer(s), to create something that appeared so real that it was actually disturbing. Dr. Miller says I have some sort of syndrome after finding out about my solipsism. I think he’s an imbecile who deserves to be burned on a stake. But out of my bodhisattva-like compassion I would instead grant him a consciousness and send him to heaven forever.

>Like I’ve said before, it’s plausible to me that this is a punishment. My failure at making friends, then my failure at soccer, then my failure in the stock market, then my failure at university, then my crippling depression. The reason I think it’s a punishment may just be projecting a sense of justice to something that is intrinsically devoid of any anthropomorphic qualities. But it may also be that there really is intelligent design (which I now strongly feel is the case) and the reason this isn’t heaven is because the force behind existence isn’t like me. It’s not the sort of thing that would give heaven to its enemies.

>>14601
Morality isn't real so it can't be a normative

File: 1678225940405.jpg (32.2 KB, 314x500, Can Biotechnology Abolish ….jpg)

>>14251
>>14275
>>14402
>>14403
>>14414
>>14525
>>14278

David Pearce completely debunked Benatar. Genetic engineering will eventually make it possible to abolish suffering entirely, and allow people to exist in a state of superhappiness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx3rdVQZ3mo
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>Yet how should rational moral agents behave if - hypothetically - some variant of Benatar's diagnosis as distinct from policy prescription was correct?

>In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.

>>14550
>population decline is causing an apocalyptic disaster in the infrastructure and real estate markets that traditionally has been the golden field of speculation for the international bourgeoisie.
I don't think real estate and infrastructure are the biggest cash cows for the ruling class. At this point the biggest capitalists are trading dividends with each other. They don't need us anymore.

>>14606
the suffering argument still isnt' the entire anti-natal argument and people who pretend like it is are idiots or dishonest.

>>14251
>>14251
>The right completely rejects any anti-natal ethic (see pic related). most antinatalists are overwhelmingly pessimists (or cynics) and when politically active they tend to be leftist socialists
antinatalism is not socialist in the slightest. it is reactionary. the premise that people have children because they are selfish because the world is oh so horrible, mean and nasty, and that we don't have the consent of the unborn, so we shouldn't infringe upon their right to not be born, etc., is completely immaterial and needlessly moralistic. It is simply absurd.
>antinatalism is very underground
No, it is not. It is very "popular" online and it is the modern manifestation of Malthusianism.
> and is mostly perceived in a negative light even by the left
because it is not even leftist. it's about as "left wing" as "cutting the tall trees."
>however, I think that anti-natal ethics
but what about ethics? what? do you not see that this is purely idealism?
>antinatalists tend to be hardcore socialist leftists
WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
>but they also recognize deeper issues that (I would argue) are even more pressing than the overcoming of capitalism.
you are a bourgeois. that is why you think that there is a more pressing ETHICAL issue, more important than overcoming capitalism.
>as antinatalist philosophy often asks deeper questions about life
how are these questions deeper? what is "deeper" about "wah wah I wish my parents didn't have sex in order to create me"? this is about as infantile as complaining about bedtimes…
>>now before you slam antinatalists as genocidal defeatist nihilists
>i'm not genocidal, I just think that widespread suffering from poverty is caused by people having too many babies and not because of capitalism, in fact, i think overthrow of capitalism is less important than fixating on this completely made up ethical dilemma.
>you should understand that antinatalists are not a monolith, some are apolitical and some aren't, some have unconditional anti-life attitudes and some are transhumanists and so on…
go touch grass. right now.
>the point im trying to make here is that I think it's a mistake to outright reject antinatalism or antinatalists from leftist discourse, and as allies, as antinatalists care deeply about suffering, something that the left is synonymous with.
this is patently bourgeois nonsense. if we went to the masses with antinatalism, they would not see us any different from the ruling class that has promoted similar bourgeois views that blame the poor for their own suffering. notice how this "ethical question" just happens to make bourgeois more ethical, since who is statistically less likely to have many children? the bourgeois love this because this serves as a good reason for austerity.

>>14609
lmao i have literally never had any issues with talking about anti-natalism with people IRL and have them agree with me.

>>14610
>lmao i have literally never had any issues with talking about anti-natalism with people IRL and have them agree with me.
were they as bourgeois as you? or is it yet another case of politically backward people unfortunately being striken with reactionary false consciousness?
seems to me like your position here as wrecker, to convince the left that they shouldn't actually do anything about capitalism, that they should instead hyperfixate on novel ethical quandaries.

>>14548
>>14550
The fact everything is being automated proves you wrong. Capitalists want a lower birthrate because they don't need us anymore and don't want to deal with the eventual rabble.

File: 1678238824194.webm (1.03 MB, 840x720, Half in the Bag_ Unfriend….webm)

>>14606
>we'll just delete suffering through eugenics

>>14611
This, antinatalism, as evident with this thread, and it's consequences have been disastrous for the human race and the solidarity of this board

Porky is DESPERATE for babies.

>>14606
designer babbis especially under class alienation is bound to be dystopic as fuk. we should just focus on getting rid of unanimously agreed upon negative genetic inheritance for stuff like down syndrome or cystic fibrosis, which also is related to both epigenetics and environmental factors and other class alienation related issues. how do we do begin to do that? push for avenues of relatively cheap or state subsidized disease screening and eradication programs under intense scrutiny and pressure from the organized working class and then under developing socialism we will have more to work with

>>14616
Down's and CF are both horrible conditions I would love to see done away with for good. Life expectancy for both is around 40 years old if lucky.

there's nothing more selfish than having children on a dying planet.

>>14525
>Most of us wouldn't accept 10 minutes of intense pleasure for 10 minutes of most excruciating pain.
proofs? at least like 50% of human pleasure is taken from pain we managed to cope with.

>>14529
>the commodification of human life has gotten to the point where the most essential processes of human existence are portrayed as a consumption choice akin to buying an electric car or washing with warm water.
grim, capitalism was a mistake

>>14618
>There's nothing more selfless than Capitalism
FTFY

>>14621
>selfless

????

File: 1678289009877.png (351.46 KB, 708x404, ClipboardImage.png)

>>14618
>"dying planet"
>leftists not being hysterical challenge (impossible)

>>14622
Selfish, that's my bad. I meant selfish and I think the AI is trying to censor me (or I'm dumb about checking my spelling)

>>14623
It's true though? The anthropocene is on track to wipe out 75% of Earth's species.

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>>14625
And? The age of dinosaurs came and went and life still trucked on. And if humans reduce this planet to a barren wasteland like Mars then that's it, it's ogre. Doom posting doesn't do anything to avert or advance the problem, it doesn't even help anyone reflect on the devastating reality of the implications. It just looks dumb, when literally anything else can and should be done

@!d=Uo v
malthusian leftoid moments

>>14623
found the /pol/ tourist

>>14626
Neat someone saved my pic and reposted it. I had to scroll back a few months to find the frog.

Women should stay in the kitchen and pump out new human material vs kill all infants. Truly dialectics at play right here

>>14630
adults should killed as well

>>14631
Ok on second thought this sounds compelling please tell me more

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>>14632
That's it. That's the program.

>>14633
Gonna replay it right now to get my fill of theory for the rest of the week

>>14628
>everyone who doesn't go along with my doomer alarmism is /pol/
lol

File: 1678297752687.png (688.09 KB, 1200x600, ClipboardImage.png)

Yo Antinatalists, hear me out:
what if instead of getting rid of life because it could feel suffering, we just eliminate suffering? I'm sure we could genetically engineer life so it is unable to feel negative emotions… Seems a bit more agreeable to me than wiping out all life on earth.
You know, we're communists, so I guess achieving a communist society would be a good step.

>>14636
Literally this, /thread

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>>14636
But even if we create genetically edited utopia the sun will eventually explode and universe will end in heat death so… what's the point

>>14638
>But what about this thing that will happen billions of years into an unfathomable distance of time

>>14636
this. but at the same time i don't want to expose children to a world of suffering so until that socialist utopia comes i'm not having kids

>>14638
That's still being debated

>>14612
>>14615
which is it

>>14643
They're shortsighted and not all on the same page.

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>>14638
just genetically engineer away the necessity to find meaning and you're good bro, blissful existence

>>14644
ok then what do the majority of porky believe?
I'm a contrarian-communist I just do whatever porky dislikes the most

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>>14642
Heat death maybe debatable but the part about sun exploding is real. Eventually all the stars nearby us will explode and destroy nearby planetary systems. Even if the universe is vast, the best space travel technology can only get us to nearby places. So humanity will be wiped clean or will be living in extremely terrible conditions quite soon. All these could be avoided by popularizing antinatalist thought and preventing more life from existing in the future. All the cities, mansions we built and technological innovations we achieved so painstakingly will be turned into dust pretty soon. There is a folklore in south of India, Kerala about a man named "Naranath Branthan", he used to roll up a big boulder up a hill like Sisyphus only to release it from the top and laugh loudly like madman about what he just did. People thought he was mad. They thought "why did he so painstakingly roll up a boulder to throw it of in the next split-second and laugh about it ?". But what he was showing/symbolizing was the futility of all of human achievements and actions which will be destroyed unemotionally under the forces of universe in the end

>>14647
>will be living in extremely terrible conditions quite soon. All these could be avoided by popularizing antinatalist thought and preventing more life from existing in the future
And? So we stop producing human life, then what? You didn't prevent everyone's suffering from years before, you can't possibly know what fresh new horrors awaits in the future. And do you honestly think collective suicide is the thing everyone is going to do willy nilly cause it's the "right thing to do"? There is no intrinsic meaning to life and we suffer for no reason, and yet people have worked to overcome great pain to make a better life to live, like Lenin said, "we stand on the shoulders of giants". You want to end life when the whole point to being a socialist is to improve our standard of living, and the antinatalist position is the childish notion of "life is too hard and mean to continue". No, people shape the material conditions we live in, and we the proletariat can reshape the meaning of our lives, our material conditions to be an improvement over what came before. One only has to imagine Sisyphus was happy in his punishment to understand he endured punishment to spite uncaring forces.

>>14647
>All the cities, mansions we built and technological innovations we achieved so painstakingly will be turned into dust pretty soon.

In 10 billion years? Yeah really soon bro.

>>14649
(cont) FYI, in regards to other spatial objects being so far they are unreachable, it would take only 40.6 million years to get to the nearest star even if you were only going 70mph, therefore it's easily achievable to get there before the sun explodes

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>>14648
>You didn't prevent everyone's suffering from years before
sunk cost fallacy

>One only has to imagine Sisyphus was happy in his punishment to understand he endured punishment to spite uncaring forces
Fuck Camus and his "imagine Sisyphus happy" cope. The uncaring force by the very definition is uncaring so perpetuating suffering to spite universe that doesn't give a shit is an illogical dead-end and cope to continue perpetuation of life

>socialists should improve standard of living
Yeah I am all for improving standard of living and will continue to support socialism as it will provide better living conditions but at the same time will promote the anti-natalist cause and eventual extinction

>>14650
sun in that solar system will also explode so ded either way in due time

>390+ posts about some terminally online shit
embarrassingly pathetic OP.

>>14652
sure but that's just an example, even with current propulsion, colonising other solar systems could be possible with generation ships (albeit with difficulty), most likely much faster propulsion and sleeper technology will be invented eventually

>>14651
Okay bro, stay sad and mad

>>14654
I mean then what ?
>eventual destruction of that solar system
>eventual migration from there
>repeat until all nearby solar systems are exhausted
>extinction
We will only be prolonging the inevitable tbh

>>14655
>stay sad and mad
not sad or mad right now

>>14656
Bro, if the human race manages to last literal BILLIONS of years, there's no reason to think we won't eventually develop the technology to escape the end of the universe, or reverse it, or whatever, and even if we can't, we still lived well for billions of years, this viewpoint is deranged, something can be good even if it doesn't last forever

>>14658
theres a theory that avoiding entropy and heat death you'd need to build a galaxy sized hadron collider to switch universes so we could prolly try that once we get powerful enough i think

>>14659
also the evidence from switching from the berenstein universe to the berenstain universe proves that its entirely within the realm of possibility to do it

>>14660
>berenstein
>berenstain
Man I just wanna shift to the universe where the Soviet Union won the Cold war

>>14661
(they stay state capitalist forever)

>>14659
Can we really shift universe though ? Sounds like cope

>>14662
yeah thats what wouldve happened but china wouldve also remained maoist and the second cold war wouldve been between maoist china and the dengist soviet union to export revolution worldwide

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>>14663
of course we can and we've already done it several times which is what the mandela effect is

>>14665
Mandela effect can be explained by other psychological phenomenon : https://www.skeptic.com/insight/the-mandela-effect/

This being proof of an alternate or parallel universe seems unlikely

>>14666
multiverse theory is pretty widely accepted in the scientific community though its just that scientists are never creative enough to imagine how they interact or intersect

>>14667
Yeah the theory itself is plausible and considered probable among the scientists. But the problem is humans travelling to the nearby star itself take millions of years. We will never see many parts of our own universe since its accelerating away from us… so travelling to an entirely new universe itself seems to be an unattainable pipedream

>>14626

it's not doomposting if it's true.

>>14669
>It's not doom posting if true
It's still doom posting, and there is still a laundry list of things worth doing instead of arguing about the meaninglessness of existence. Nothing is more meaningless then expressing discomfort on the Internet

>>14492
this shit slaps

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>>14616
>designer babbis especially under class alienation is bound to be dystopic as fuk.
Why?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jsEt7zDxRzY

>>14366
>hurr durr kys
Horrible takes on antinatalism is the intersection of /pol/ and /leftypol/.
No one wants to touch it. They devote the least amount of critical consideration possible, find a nice slogan, and call it a day.

実はここのやつらが言う反出生主義は結構反女性なのです。

>>14300
Underrated post

>>14545
im a rape victim and don't find this analogy insulting at all.
in fact I find it very accurate.

https://twitter.com/Logo_Daedalus/status/1649112066165178

>>14265
>I am le chad pepe xdxd
Imagine unironically posting weird, self-aggrandizing stuff like this.
>>14674
Little weeaboo was so proud of his Japanese studying and was peeing himself waiting to show it to the class.

>>14265
This.

As with everything, redditors go above and beyond to make the idea seem as insane as possible. Unless you're already apart of the elites or near elites, having a child is a massive uncertainty. Even in the best cases, it might still come out retarded. But also, everyone gets cancer at some point and dies so why bother to begin with?
I can only look at the 'movement' and cringe, but there's nothing really wrong with admitting you don't have much of a future to provide for a kid economically, and when society itself can't account for the kids of today you know its even more fucked ie foster care system.

>>14251
Non-discussion. Births are going down either way and we will reach peak population in 2040-50 if not before that.

>>14252
>For me, this question comes down to a personal ethical judgement.
Yea but you see me and you making a personal choice abstaining from procreation doesn't help our cause any does it now?
if the breeders aren't convinced by argument and "reason" we still have take it upon ourselves to extinguish suffering one way or another.

>>14681
completely irrelevant to the subject of antinatalism.
it's about extinction not just "low births"

Antinatalism is reddit nihilism

>>14683
Why not extinguish yourself?

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>>14406
>posting that attributed quote from "Voltaire" again.

Voltaire never said that quote, it was Kevin Alfred Strom, an American neo-Nazi, who first said those words in 1993.

>>14251
Antinatalism is not, and will not, ever be taken seriously in spaces other than online. Procreation is obviously up to personal preference and as you said, antinatalists aren't some monolith. Deal with them as you would anyone else.

>>14685
because it doesn't solve the problem.

>>14684
very insightful anon!

>>14689
Start shooting up preschools like adam lanza then, another antinatalist "efilist"
Your misanthropy and self-hatred is just fuel for bloodshed

>>14690
Yes
You are a redditor and a nihilist who unironically posts on r/nihilism about how angry you were that you saw a happy couple carrying their baby in a park, hoping to get upvotes

>>14688
procreation on a case by case basis isn't the problem, I don't expect people to stop breeding even if 100% of the population were convinced antinatalists.
it's procreation being socially and "morally" accepted that's the problem.

>>14693
Do animals also have moral considerations before making babies, or is it just natural?

>>14691
still doesn't solve the problem.
Lanza was the kind of person that was going to mass shoot anyways, regardless of philosophical belief.

>>14695
You hate the concept of life - he killed life.
Its a job well done, no?
Are you also happy about climate change and mass pollution turning earth into a sterile wasteland? I would be in your situation.
Whats the point of "ideas" if ideas still require brains to receive them? Isnt praxis war and terrorism, until all organic matter is annihilated?
Whats your perfect strategy?

>>14696
no and no.
you wouldn't be happy about these if you took antinatalism seriously.
lets use the example of conflict
there is no sense in winning the battle if you lose the war. least of all battles that make you look bad in the long run (Lanza).
>Whats your perfect strategy?
no idea, that's the puzzle.

>>14672
Gene correction isn't what is considered designer babies

>>14694
That's my point, procreation is too deeply ingrained in our nature that even in an antinatalist society it would still happen.
so it doesn't make much sense to punish individuals too much for that. what matters is that everyone gets why procreation is bad then we could all be on board to extinct the rest of the planet.

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“Madness, mayhem, erotic vandalism, devastation of innumerable souls - while we scream and perish, History licks a finger and turns the page.”
― Thomas Ligotti

>>14251
> most antinatalists are overwhelmingly pessimists (or cynics) and when politically active they tend to be leftist socialists (Think Thomas Ligotti, David Benatar, Philipp Mainländer… etc). antinatalism is very underground, even more so than veganism and is mostly perceived in a negative light even by the left. it's seen as reactionary and extreme and therefore dismissed.
Antinatalism IS reactionary and also bourgeois. I have never heard of any socialist anti-natalism but they'd still be wrong. The world is full of suffering, not because of "selfish parents who, unethically, did not consider whether their child would like to have been born" but because Capitalist imperialism cannot provide for human need, only for the private accumulation of capital for a select few

>however, I think that anti-natal ethics have a huge potential to reduce a lot of suffering
framing. see above.

>as antinatalist philosophy often asks deeper questions about life, meanwhile most of the leftist discourse is focused on social identity and capitalism.
framing, see above.

>it's not that antinatalists don't think of those things as big problems that need to be overcome, on the contrary, antinatalists tend to be hardcore socialist leftists but they also recognize deeper issues that (I would argue) are even more pressing than the overcoming of capitalism.
and there it is: guys, guys, guys let's fixate on this totally made up bourgeois ethical quandary and work tirelessly to abolish natalism instead of the real material root cause of suffering

>now before you slam antinatalists as genocidal defeatist nihilists, you should understand that antinatalists are not a monolith, some are apolitical and some aren't, some have unconditional anti-life attitudes and some are transhumanists and so on…
I would not ever argue that antinatalists are genocidal, except that they clearly seem to believe that poverty is the result of too many selfish parents choosing to have children against the wishes of their *checks notes* unborn children. in that sense, it is basically rebranded malthusianism

>the point im trying to make here is that I think it's a mistake to outright reject antinatalism or antinatalists from leftist discourse, and as allies, as antinatalists care deeply about suffering, something that the left is synonymous with.
antinatalists don't actually care about suffering. they don't want to address the actual material root cause of suffering. rather, they want to distract from the issue of the exploitative nature of imperialist capitalism by fixating on bourgeois moral debate

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>>14701
>Antinatalism IS reactionary and also bourgeois
see pic rel

>I have never heard of any socialist anti-natalism
I am socialist antinatalist

>>14702
who cares what musk says, dude is also constantly speaking against ai "despite" being an openai investor (actually wants gov to regulate ai and let openai have a monopoly on it)

>>14703
He is fearmongering so that people use only his AI and drive competition out. Anyway the point is that socialism can take care of material needs true but that doesn't mean there wont be antinatalists in a socialist society due to philosophical and other reasons

>>14701
>Antinatalism IS reactionary and also bourgeois. I have never heard of any socialist anti-natalism but they'd still be wrong. The world is full of suffering, not because of "selfish parents who, unethically, did not consider whether their child would like to have been born" but because Capitalist imperialism cannot provide for human need, only for the private accumulation of capital for a select few

Wrong, you have no understanding of reality to even begin forming a philosophy as a counter argument.

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How do anarchists respond to this?

https://twitter.com/AvaGrac46763969/status/1664320944926490624

>>14706
Anarchism doesn't have a single master-thinker the way marxism does, so for anarchists, it's not a problem to begin with.

>>14706
She simply didn't know about advanced biology and genetics. It's like the socialists that today say that meat is essential to human nutrition and that trans people are a modern phenomenon. They are talking of things out of their depth.

>>14706
Emma was based:

>>14706
I see nothing wrong here. Birth strike in the imperial core is objectively a good thing.

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this is stupid and schizophrenic.

the only reason you wouldn't think of bringing another life into this world is because of the horrors of capital and imperialism and the absolute destruction and greed it has brought to the earth, life itself, and you.

life can be wonderful and beautiful with meaning or no meaning, and the forces of capitalism stand in the way of that.

comrades, fight for a better and more just world, not discuss the nihilistic iniquity of not having kids of your own.

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>>14711
Death solves all problems, no man, no problem

>>14578
That implies that rationality only cares for profit, the very definition of which we cannot pinpoint in our objective reality (simply because of it's inexistance).
Rational thinking and emotional are the ultimate spooks.

>Antinatalism
Oh, so eugenics isn't called "reproductive health" anymore?
https://corbettreport.com/gates/
https://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_gates.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pp-exterminating-idUSL2N2X11YN

I keep losing track with all this newspeak, there should be dictionaries for this kind of shit.

>>14713
You are a retard making enormous assumptions.

File: 1686241740208.png (210.23 KB, 2515x1134, ClipboardImage.png)

Read.

>>14706
BASED

"Leftist socialist" doesn't always equate to good. There are after all Fabian eugenicists, Nazi socialists, and lumpen anarchofascists that technically count as socialists but are fundamentally of the reactionary socialist types ultimately. Many Western socialists are simply disaffected petty bourgeois who are mad that the world has some laws.

>>14251
Its only positive if retards dont reproduce.

Why are people so obsessed with reproduction when adults lack empathetic ability towards childrens personhood?

Why is it that procreation is the only activity thats not given any regulation?

I'm very sympathetic to antinatalism and I think it's a logical conclusion. Unfortunately, the average person is too close minded to even hear it out. I've learned that the average person isn't necessarily stupid, just anti-curiosity. It's why veganism (although being a completely logical endpoint to animal rights) is so hated on. People don't want to think about their ethics or a way to improve the world.

>>22133
this. Most people love to preach abput intellectual curiosity amd advocate for mandatory literacy but then will criminalise others for differing opinions.


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