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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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I read this article and it claimed that leaders of the anti-gov protesters were acting entirely in self interest and that majority of casualties were soldiers of the PLA who were murdered by the protesters when they tried to solve things peacefully.

Is this true? I don't trust western propaganda one bit but this is the tiananmen square massacre!? I don't want to jump to conclusions right away. What are your thoughts on this?

I also tried to check the sources and I got a 403/404.

website:
https://www.liberationschool.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/

pdf:
http://76i2c3hn55fcj5nut3tqlboqqbbh23zvphv7lefk3vftpx6wketlanyd.onion/leftypol/src/1682222954384-0.pdf

 

IIRC one of the leaders of the protesters openly admitted she was hoping it would turn into a massacre to galvanize people against the government.

 

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>>17906
CW GORE

 

File: 1686632909859.png (Spoiler Image, 290.57 KB, 648x421, ClipboardImage.png)

From everything I know, I can find no fault here.

We can let ideology interfere with interpretation, and claim that the Chinese military used “excessive force”, even in self-defence, but that seems a useless claim. In a number of recent cases in the US, a dozen or more police fired 50, and in one case in Miami, more than 100, bullets into an unarmed man, with the courts later claiming this “was not an excessive use of force”. So let’s be fair and tar everyone with the same brush.

 

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File: 1686633255100.webm (8.58 MB, 640x360, yanktanks.webm)


 

File: 1686633460863.webm (12.02 MB, 640x480, tinymansquare.webm)


 


 

>>17915 (me)
reminder also that 'Tank Man' isnt even from the right day as the tinyman square protests.

 

>>17915
but but but the wikipedia article says that the chinese don't even know any of this happened because they used the brain erase ray from Men In Black

 

>>17902
All the images of actually dead people completely support the narrative that there was a small group of armed protestors who lynched initially nonviolent PLA soldiers (since actually armed soldiers prepared to fight wouldn't just get lynched in the middle of the street) first and then were killed in combat when of course backup was sent. There was no actual "massacre" in that the deaths were all actual armed combat and even then it's only a few hundred at most like the CPC numbers say. None of the evidence or initial western testimony (who all stated that there was no actual killing in the square) suggests otherwise.

 

>>17918
Really it boils down to "how the fuck can an armed military supposedly sent on orders to massacre people end up getting lynched by civilians?" That simply just isn't possible if the PLA instigated.

 

>>17919
if you show glowdditors the pics of the PLA getting lynched i have seen them unironically suggest that the PLA threw their own hats onto dead civvies like how up their own ass can their heads be

 


 

>>17918
Seems moderately plausible - but what of the photos of bodies seemingly destroyed by tank treads?
Didn't know people though protesters were killed anywhere besides the streets. I don't buy that the CPC weren't firing on the fleeing, though.

 

>>17922
>I don't buy that the CPC weren't firing on the fleeing, though.
you're too stupid to know the difference between the "CPC" (a political party) and the PLA (china's army) so nobody cares what you do or don't "buy"

 

>>17922 (nta)
>photos of bodies seemingly destroyed by tank treads
What photos? there are none.

 

>>17924
anon sometimes there's pics of bikes that got run over, so that means the people on them also got run over hehehehe

 

>>17922
>I don't buy that the CPC weren't firing on the fleeing
behold the sinophobic brain. when cops in america run over protesters nobody says "the democrats ran over protesters today" or "the republican party ran over protesters today"

 

Op here.

So the story is the PLA first came in peacefully but got brutally murdered, the gov then understandably got pissed and escalated things from there. If this is the case then I don't really see how this is a massacre, sure there were probably lots of innocents hurt in the crossfire and maybe they got a little too mad, but it wasn't some unwarranted attack.

It's kind of disheartening to know that everything you once treated as fact is now just false. I'm just constantly always surrounded by lies all the time, I need to get out of this country.

 

Didnt protestors take over armored vehicles?

 

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>>17927
>It's kind of disheartening to know that everything you once treated as fact is now just false. I'm just constantly always surrounded by lies all the time, I need to get out of this country.
me every time i watch young communists in burger land go through it

 

>>17928
yeah it's in the news footage posted here >>17921

 

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>>17927
>the gov then understandably got pissed and escalated things from there.
The square was cleared without any kind of 'massacre', the around 200 dead civilians comes from people who broke into armouries or stole PLA weapons from the soldiers and were killed in skirmishes with the PLA outside of the square.

>>17928
>Didnt protestors take over armored vehicles?
Yes this as well.

 

>>17931 (me)
Also for a look at how a Capitalist country handles this take a look at this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising (2300 dead Protesters)

 

>>17932
>Also for a look at how a Capitalist country handles this

 

>>17906
>hey im just going to post gore and a shortened link without context
what is this, /b/? at least you gave warning, props for that

 

File: 1686640526422.png (189.94 KB, 474x323, ClipboardImage.png)

>protesters were acting in self interest
thats what a protest is, yes.

that's why people do things

 

File: 1686640673196.png (179.46 KB, 2154x2153, i.png)

Whatever happened on the day, the CPC are fragile faggots for censoring discussion about it.

 

File: 1686641156636.mp4 (26.9 MB, 642x480, Clearing the Square.mp4)

>>17936
it was covered by chinese media when it happened. do you really think the country has amnesia about it? no. you're just westoid who ironically believes his own government's lies about other countries.

see

 

>>17934
it's not a shortened link, it's an archived link, in case the original article gets removed. There's a difference.

 

>>17938
There is a difference, but in this situation the difference doesn't matter. The destination (or in this case, source) is disguised, removing metadata that would give a viewer context.
Hence, if I don't see a title or explanation to supplement it, I ain't clicking that shit uigha.

 

>>17937
>you're just westoid
no & stopped reading

 

>>17912
better version of that pic

 

>>17940
the important part came before that, so glad you got it through your thick skull

 

>>17937
full video was deleted by Youtube for "violent content" but remains on Vimeo
>六四真相~解放军战士被残忍砸死、打死、烧死。谁在高度克制?谁在残忍行凶?
<The Truth about June 4 ~ PLA soldiers were brutally stoned, killed and burned to death. Who was exercising a high degree of restraint? Who was brutally committing murder?
https://vimeo.com/437562258

no subtitles though

 

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>>17936
>muh censorship
no freeze peach for reactoids

 

>>17943
Actually, this too is a segment from a larger half hour documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjFwQTbHYKk
>b-but the CCP hides it!!!1

 

>>17945
Alternate Vimeo link since Youtube restricts it to logged in accounts
https://vimeo.com/464780095

 

File: 1686644075534.png (59.75 KB, 400x252, ClipboardImage.png)

>>17944
>muh frozen peaches
If you want braindead dogma, go join a religion. We engage in critique and analysis. That's a core aspect of Marxism and any decent model of… anything. And to do that, you need to learn about the good, the bad and the ugly. Even China knows this, that's why they admit their party's role in intensifying the Great Famine, and that's why they've been able to understand how to stop that happening since.

>>17945
uygha that's a USA-owned platform don't strawman over that
at least strawman over something like the Baidu Baike page not mentioning any incident or protest, or the year 1989 whatsoever.

 

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>>17936
>nooo don't stop us from spreading lies to foment a color revolution haha

 

>>17936
source for this claim please anon?
>>17944
some of the protestors were maoists ironically lol

 

>>17942
Ah yes, the two irrelevant parts! I did read those, they were fucking stupid.

>it was covered by chinese media when it happened.

Who cares, that is not a counter-claim. They still continue to censor or control writing about the topic.
>do you really think the country has amnesia about it?
I never made that claim or suggested it. I know that word-of-mouth and counter-censorship exists, and that mentions of the incident can be found on Chinese web search. That is not a counter-claim.

<inb4 someone says 'USA does that too'-ism

USA is not a basis for a system of ethics

 

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>>17948
how are you getting this defensive?
go back to disc0rd.gov

 

>>17948
I mean to be fair I think the CPC did a lot to fuel the events of the protests by basically reintroducing capitalism and then stopping before letting American capital totally pillage their country but yeah there was literally American glowies discussing at the time about at the least preparing to send military aid to some of the protest leaders to "fully liberalize" China and try and conduct a coup and possibly funding them from the start.

 


 


 

>>17937
>do you really think the country has amnesia about it?
No, despite all efforts to inflict it.
>you're just westoid
It's unbelievable how dialogue has degenerated into "East/West" chauvinism on a Marxist forum, even if this is an imageboard. It makes you pine for the days of endless Gamergate threads.

 

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>>17912
>>17941
hey i can play this gaem two

(I appreciate that some they point out are clearly alive, and I believe all are, but some of the descriptions here are very inconclusive, you can't confirm just from the arm position and a still image)

 

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>>17955
>on a Marxist forum
Oh come on, don't fool yourself. We might as well be /r/socialism with a rapidly evaporating dash of edgyness.

 

>>17957
not that I necessarily disagree but define marxist forum, describe /r/socialism, define edginess pls if possible

 

This sort of discourse is "extracting condemnations". It's the conversational form of the thought-terminating-cliche. Demanding condemnations is a consensus defense mechanism, learned from habit and reinforced by the fragility of liberal thought. Once it happens the person is not listening or hearing, but waiting for a catch22 of a response with no right answers so that they can asuade their mind of the validity of their held beliefs.

 

>>17959
Ok I mean I don't think this is a particularly "liberal' thing you are describing though? Not sure what your point is?

 

>>17903
>It didn't but but if it did it was there fault
epic

 

The June Fourth Incident and casualty tolls on both sides only goes to show that Chinese people have more revolutionary spirit than any Anglo country excluding Quebec.

 

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>>17959
Basically, someone that only ever has critique for everything around is a liberal. It's a very mindless, detached worldview because it can't be any other way.

 

>>17958
- Marxist forum: n. Threaded social site dominated by discussion of Marxist theory and its decedent variants, officially aiming to promote Marxisms, or restricting membership to adherents.
- /r/socialism: n. The mythologized idea of a bad place, you hate it. Related: reddit, succdem
- edgy: adj. lassalle was a jewish nigger

 

>>17961
I want to get a list of each ideology's example.
We all know the classic examples from fascists and M-L*s, but what is the classic example for, let's say, a libertarian, eco-rad, or proglib?

 

>>17962
>quebec
you cannot be serious. those guys suck american reactionary chauvinism like no other. the only revolution they could ever have would be like 1776 all over again

 

>>17939
All archive links show their source at the top of the page dummy

 

>>17950
Censorship is necessary to prevent capitalists from flooding your society with misinformation. Q anon, Falun gong, and other schizo cults are what happen when you fail to prevent porky from controlling the narrative

 

>>17955
I'm not an East chauvinist. I'm just a Westoid surrounded by westoids who believe Westoid lies about Eastoids

 

>>17952
Tiresome victim blaming narrative

 

>>17927
>It's kind of disheartening to know that everything you once treated as fact is now just false. I'm just constantly always surrounded by lies all the time, I need to get out of this country.
You just need to realize that you are basically inside the kind of propaganda machine that the west tells you North Korea is.

 

>>17972
It's more an ideological mess than a machine. You are maybe not wrong in that we can see that 'every accusation a confession' holds true for all manner of reactionary. Conceptualizing it as propaganda is not necessarily helpful when it's just everything. There is no distinction between propaganda and not-propaganda. That's what the spectacle / critical theory people are pointing to.

 

>capitalist readers be like: hmmm today we will do bourgeois liberalization and we will crack down on people self organizations
>students: wtf no you can't do this!
>there is a massive protest
>capitalist roaders up killing the protestors, accusing them of being the CIA, ending up liberalizing the economy
>dengoids: mission accomplished, we killed the foreign agents, what a great victory for the proletariat, look china has the most billionaires forces of production now!

 

>>17974
You aren't gonna question the ideas handed to you, huh

 

>>17975
hope you get a socialist wage for defending the chinese bourgeois counterrevolution fellow worker

 

>>17976
The most important question of the day is how to make a reverse Turing test for liberals

 

>>17956
>pic
Where's the lie

 

>>17974
>Capitalist readers be like: hmmm today we will do bourgeois liberalization and we will crack down on people self organizations
The student protesters at tinyman square were western backed color revolutionaries who thought Deng didn't go far enough with liberalization and also were butthurt racists who wanted African exchange students kicked out of Chinese universities

 

File: 1696869425436.png (450.09 KB, 888x2070, ClipboardImage.png)

And old bunkerchan debunk that is missing from this thread, it is in leftybooru

 

>>17902
The CIA is a raeely g00d epxplanatoin

 


 

>>17965
I see slurs in a lot of threads so we think this place is still pretty edgy


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