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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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Everytime you visit /edu/, post in this thread. Tell us about what you're thinking about, what you're reading, an interesting thing you have learned today, anything! Just be sure to pop in and say hi.

Previous thread >>>/leftypol_archive/580500
Archive of previous thread
https://archive.is/saN3S

Excuse me coming through
A quick note on the video @ >>>/leftypol/1538283
Also [vid related] for archival purposes

Around the 29 minute mark Peterson criticizes Marx and Engel's for assuming that workers would magically become more productive once they took over.

This actually happened historically, most of the actually effective productivity tricks work places use now were developed by Stakhanovites.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1936-2/year-of-the-stakhanovite/year-of-the-stakhanovite-texts/stalin-at-the-conference-of-stakhanovites/

Reality has a Marxist bias
279 posts and 59 image replies omitted.

What are some books to read to differentiate the NEP from Dengism?

I really been thinking about our biological evolved feeling of "personal property"… it's crazy how monkeys with brains create entire economic and political systems to justify their gut instincts.

>>23533
personal property as a concept is rational since it grows out of one's body and labour, and thus serves as the basis of fairness and morality. private property is irrational since it is the appropriation of another's labour by coercion or deception. however, the life of labour is naturally alienated (objectified) and thus we appropriate each other's social product in the terms of private property (i.e. commodities). as long as all of our labours are appropriately shared however, then we once again achieve fairness and morality. property is also not just a simean concept, but many animals share it, like birds and their nests, or bees and their hives. property can be personal or shared, but it is still marked with the stamp ownership (lest our bodies should be used against our will). it is not just man who labours, and therefore it is not just man who has natural right to the earth. we also regard theft and other crimes as relative to a reappropriation of the social product. so personal property is conjoined to a concept of social property, or reappropriation. "public" and "private" property are the irrational forms these take.

>>23519
>i similarly enjoy talking vulgarly with people, but in a way that parodies (or defaces) the pretension of sexuality, by overidentification. it is a reverse phallus, which then allows for my own castration, and so liberates me to my femininity. in this, i find greatest enjoyment flirting with women, yet never soiling this phantasmatic friendship with sex. this bears similarity to lacan's equation of enjoyment in the drive; "i could be talking or fucking and it would be the same difference". here, i prefer the social masturbations of oral excesses. yet, oral sex digusts me; giving or receiving.

Methinks your definition of "femininity" is the cartoonish mutual absence of "masculinity".


>where it concerns sex however, we must be mindful that what gives it its qualities is the erotic formality of its narrative. this is why all porn requires a storyline for it to be enjoyed. sex then is not a pure act of organic intensity, but a mediated act of social signification. this is also why incest porn is so popular, because of the transgressive logic of taboo. in this is also a gendered difference in how we relate to sex. women prefer erotica (abstract mediation), while men prefer the image of sex (concrete immediacy). this is also the literary soul of women, whom read more books than men and watch more TV shows, while men may watch more movies. here, the form of narrative is also considered, between the serial and finite. i much prefer closed narratives, yet achieve my libidinal charge from a porno's storyline


Men are also literary. Women read more books because they read more romance novels.
Men are more inclined to read more sci-fi or fantasy which is longer.
Also men also make and enjoy erotica.
We don't always rely solely on images.

>>23546
my definition of femininity is object-ivity (or the ego of one's body), while masculinity is subject-ivity (or the ego of one's identity). this has its genital relation whereby women are castrated while men are phallic. knowledge is also gendered along the lines of intuition and reason. this is why 95% of all "intellectuals" are men while intellectual women are lesbianic. homosexuals are feminine because they convert their anus and/or mouth into a vagina, while lesbians are masculine by simulating the phallus. my point is that to be entered into a critical discourse of one's gender, you must become queered as an androgyne. the issue with homo/trans-sexuality however is that these identities are hysterical, and therefore ontological rather than social categories (hence the idea of being "born gay" or having a "female brain"; these are essentialist categories, basically). thus, one must enter into awareness of his contradiction. in my opinion, only the heterosexual (homoerotic) possesses this power most effectively. how would you define the genders?

>men are also literary

mostly where it concerns non-fiction. fiction is a feminine category (since it is born from repression/castration). sci-fi also acts as a semi-fiction, with its abstract worldbuilding.
>men enjoy erotica
yes, but unconsciously. the dialectic of arousal is that it mistakes the appearance of the sexual for its erotic essence, when the true substance of sexuality is narration (i.e. fiction). this is why i say that i am womanly by appealing to the object-ivity of sexual desire (in the text of the fantasy).
in kantian terms, masculinity is spatial by taking the appearance of things as their rational form, while femininity is temporal by taking the narrative as its essential form. both are right and both are wrong. you need a "synthetic a priori" to unite the two.

>>23508
>sex is not about sex, as oscar wilde tells us. it is about power.
At the moment i'm reading Dialectic of Sex by Shulamith Firestone and she goes even further in revising Freud. Here the oedipal complex for example results from the powerless child identifying with the likewise oppressed mother. Later then the boy is expected to imitate the father, and he does under the promise of worldly power, repressing the desire to kill his father. She also makes an interesting case about gendered attraction, namely that the sort of power the child desires over its parents differentiates it from an initiial union of the emotional and sexual. Therefore "penis envy" is to be taken entirely metaphorically, as the envy of male power.

The chapter on childhood might also be of special interest to newgene:
<The cult of childhood as the Golden Age is so strong that all other ages of life derive their value from how closely they resemble it, in a national cult of you; "grownups" make asses of themselves with their jealous apologetics ("Of coure I'm twice your age, dear, but …). There is the general belief that progress has been made because at least in our time children have been freed from the ugly toils of child labor and many other traditinoal exploitations of past generations. In fact there is even the envious moan that children are getting too much attention. They are spoiled. ("When I was your age …" parallels "It's a woman world …")

>>23570
yes, well "penis envy" is really phallus* envy, with the penis only being a form of the phallus (which can be objectified in many different symbols, most notably guns and cigars - which is why these phallic items occupy the aesthetics of right-wing politics). sunglasses in particular are the phallic symbol par excellence, since they quite literally create a "gap" (of signification) between the subject and the world, which gives him symbolic mastery over it (like how the penis is externalised). its the same difference between being in a car and staring at people on the street (even though you would never do this without the "screen" of the phallus). this symbolisation is not just in man however, but also occurs in dogs (vidrel) where the illusion of "distance" creates a relationship of alienated power. after the gap is closed, the phallus shrinks and inverts.

i find phallus to be inauthentic and so i dont engage in any sort of "tough-guy" behaviour to please my ego, even though i have in the past. you will see in picrel also a sort of symbolic physiognomy where it concerns political orientation, between the "castrated" and "phallic".

File: 1739262469002.jpg (39.89 KB, 680x735, 9cf.jpg)

>>23571
>you will see in picrel also a sort of symbolic physiognomy where it concerns political orientation, between the "castrated" and "phallic".
I've always been confused about the identity of "soyboys". They don't seem to be "castrated" in any real sense, what do they accomplish in going even beyond the temporal dissonance of the nice guy persona towards this continuous performance of castration, where power is implicit and breaking the mask to assert it is done with the same gravitas as a child throwing a tantrum. Is this "entitlement" the transition from hard to soft power at work?

>>23572
>transition from hard to soft power
like deleuze's disciplinary to control societies in the advent of managerialism? it reminds me of dan harmon's description of the workplace being ruled by "suits" and then overtime, "sweaters", or "nice guys" who nonetheless contract an implicit relationship of power. its the same description as zizek's "postmodern father" paradigm also, where power has its discourse in a new superegoic disjunction, where the old model was shame at indulging too much in pleasure, while today's unconscious is based in the shame of not indulging enough (creating cultural myopias like FOMO - "fear of missing out"). materially, this corresponds to the burgeoning of a "consumer society" displacing industrial society.

but maybe youre right then, that castration is just a cynical performance, or "strategy" of reproduction, as others suggest. i do nonetheless think that authentic masculinity is castrated (like how Christ is crucified), so perhaps we can qualify between deception and earnesty in this realm. what you are saying is that most "nice guys" are not nice? i would agree in nietzschean terms. weakness is not mercy or innocence.

File: 1739264646509.jpeg (90.95 KB, 818x1454, 4vehsf2dbwhe1.jpeg)

>>23573
>what you are saying is that most "nice guys" are not nice?
This also exists in machismo males to some degree, but the stereotypical nice guy acts uncharacteristically polite to women with an expectation to be owed something for it. When he asserts his power by calling her a bitch, he still sees himself as "nice" because he did not outright demand she comply like one those "jerks".

File: 1739265462791.mp4 (1.57 MB, 202x360, oedipus.mp4)

>>23574
yes, yes, i agree. a relationship of debt is procured, where "compliments" and "time" spent with her is supposed to account for a type of economic calculation. we could call this a form of romantic investment, most common with young men obviously. and like you say, he imagines himself superior to the "jerks" his unrequited love is always going out with. it is definitely a form of narcissism that is hopefully healed later in life. the possessiveness of young love also mimics oedipal attachment, where the male seeks his mother's endless attention and gets jealous of her around other males. the insane love fantasies of youth also clearly mimic the oedipus complex and its incestuous projections.

<"a tyrant is a child in a man's body" - hobbes

>>23575
>the possessiveness of young love also mimics oedipal attachment
In terms of power all heterosexual relationships are oedipal. Your clip illustrates this, where the child does not simply love, he has not yet separated emotional from romantic love but has already internalized that one of them can only be expressed in a monogamous relationship of power. Being confronted with this the child is all but impotent, the "healthy" oedipal adult can act on these desires yes, though i wouldn't necessarily call him child-like.

The crux remains this: Rather than receiving a wife from another patriarch, men are raised with the image of romantic love and rather than being expected to marry, now women have to want to be wooed.

>>23576
well i would say that all romance is an infantile fantasy. this is why the libido is generally sublimated, to develop a relationship to desire that isnt entirely possessive. this is why the alienating object of the father is part of positive development, since it allows us to come apart from the mother (by unconsciously revealing her sin; lest we become catholics, worshipping the "virgin mother"). this is why i say that priestcraft worship the oedipal goddess, and by this, express their inherent homosexuality (since as we see with nominally fatherless homes, homosexuality is more common, showing how the over-attachment of boys to their mothers actually inverts desire of the object, whereby the boy internalises a feminine subjectivity). its a good question to ask, why is the gay man easily attached to women, yet disgusted (and even fearful) of feminine sexuality?
the father to the heterosexual is supposed to represent the boy's internal subjectivity (lest he live in eternal rebellion), but with his absence, the boy is "wed" to the mother and undergoes a traumatic disenchantment.
so heterosexuality is always borne from a certain illusion, yet homosexuality can be equally ideological, as i note here:
>>23564
gays uncover a certain truth, but are too underdeveloped to theorise it properly

>>23577
>all romance is an infantile fantasy
I say you're taking oedipal attachement too literally to be useful (and also ignoring the seed of systemic criticism). Male heterosexuality and homosexuality both contain the definition of femininity as objectivity as a mark of their oedipal psychosis. This movement from individual desire to sex essentialism precisely constitutes the terrible crown of male socialization, wherein the trauma is displaced onto all of womanhood and its fetishistic conceptions, "developing a relationship to desire that isnt entirely possessive" as you say.

>>23578
i am criticising *all* systems from the root of human desire. pointing out the structure of heterosexual power cannot overcome it, except by mediation, which is best expressed in sublimated art and crafts (with some imagining the production of commodities themselves having a psychic quality - like how water bottles resemble penises. if we look at pagan antiquity, there was also an interesting blend between pornography and utility). to me, symbolic castration only means a mutual recognition of masculinity by dissolving the phallus. this can be achieved in friendships where you make jokes about each other and so on. this is why the guy who can give it but cant take it is the most tyrannical character of all. todd mcgowan thus theorises that the humour of castration is self-deprication, while the humour of phallus is the mocking of others. so as a form of praxis, all i ask for is self-criticism via jokes. male friendship is naturally liberating, but equally tribal, and thus oppressive to outsiders.
>Male heterosexuality and homosexuality both contain the definition of femininity as objectivity as a mark of their oedipal psychosis.
yes but they relate to the mother in different ways, which is of central significance.
>This movement from individual desire to sex essentialism precisely constitutes the terrible crown of male socialization, wherein the trauma is displaced onto all of womanhood and its fetishistic conceptions, "developing a relationship to desire that isnt entirely possessive" as you say.
can you expand on what you mean here?

>>23579
>i am criticising *all* systems from the root of human desire
The only desire produced under patriarchy that can be said to have arisen from nature is unconditional, motherly love, all others are the product of historical necessity. That is not to say any of them are desireable in itself, desires can be changed and they should be.
>can you expand on what you mean here?
The madonna/whore complex is an example of this, wherein the trauma of being unable to express sexual love is repressed by reducing all women to one of these two fetishistic categories. A man affected by this appears entirely normal in the eyes of society, maybe even virtuous through his committment to the moral goodness of his family, that is until he kills a hooker.

File: 1739274581263.mp4 (1.82 MB, 640x352, infanticide.mp4)

>>23580
i think you are too optimistic
as i say, men have not changed, they have only been able to express themselves in different ways.
toddlers love playing violent video games, yet give us warm smiles of kindness. man is a dual being. angel and demon.
what yoy must do is realise that society is built on sin; that the food we eat, the liquids we drink, the air we breathe, the technologies we use, are all drenched in blood.
now, can it be different? yes. but can we wipe away the debt of existence? no. and even "motherly love" has its limits, as we see with abortion. infanticide is even common in other animals.
my position is to find a creative way to express my libido; some reproduce biologically, others culturally - some cannot *create* and so they destroy instead.
i am a pessimist, which makes me realistic, i think.

>>23581
As a marxist i operate on the assumption that all societies are transient, so i cannot share your essentialism. Let's leave it at that.

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>>23582
well, surely you must believe in species-being?
and i am only as "essentialist" as the laws of nature permit me to be. if man is limitless, then why not grow wings?
if in your mind, society is a groundless "choice", then what purpose does abstract society have to "man" in the first place? you are taking the capitalist position of making man a secondary entity to his own affairs, such as marx describes in "the fetishism of commodities", where man is objectified (alienated) as a material relation between himself to serve the subjectivity of value.
>transient
this implies contingency, not necessity. all societies are necessary in the progress of history, and they do not disappear, but remain, as marx writes in the preface to capital vol. 1,
>"Alongside the modern evils, a whole series of inherited evils oppress us, arising from the passive survival of antiquated modes of production, with their inevitable train of social and political anachronisms. We suffer not only from the living, but from the dead. Le mort saisit le vif! [The dead holds the living in his grasp. – formula of French common law]"
kojin karatani in "the structure of world history" makes a more sophisticated argument in regards to modes of exchange (akin to graeber's notion of cycling credit and money societies, and thus the establishment of a social ontology, or tendency of social organisation).

i feel like you are surrendering your reason here.

>>23583
This admission that change is possible is the apriorism necessary for ruthless critique, otherwise we can only ever justify the current state of things in its particular moment.
>if man is limitless, then why not grow wings?
Through society and consciousness alienated from animal existence, humans already have limitless potential. Concerning the family question this takes the particular form of artificial insemination and ultimately in vitro conception.
>society is a groundless "choice"
Obviously not: "What is rational is real; And what is real is rational.”, "Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please", you know the drill.
>they do not disappear, but remain
You can't use the mere existence of history and unequal development to claim "nothing ever happens". The tree is predicated on the seed and even reproduces it, but it is not a literal container for the seed either.

File: 1739279352097.jpg (438.13 KB, 832x1048, [email protected])

>>23584
i never claimed that nothing ever happens, but that things can only change from within what they already are. society is a formal construct, yet there still are many different types of society. change is also a return to the same, like how spring turns to winter, and winter turns back to spring. if your idea of change is a suspension of the laws of nature, then you are naive, as i have already stated.
>critique
critique is a theoretical project. if you treat criticism as unconditional, then wouldnt you have the imperative to demolish communist society as soon as it was established? le eternal revolution?
>humans already have limitless potential
no, our alienated essence (abstract society) has limitless potential, but we are limited as beings. this is why treating our infinity as primary is false consciousness; "we" do not live forever, society lives forever.
>You can't use the mere existence of history and unequal development to claim "nothing ever happens".
i am claiming that everything is always happening; the living and dead exist together in eternity. "unequal development" will always be a reality. and as karatani and graeber make clear, even within capitalism, we still achieve forms of "everyday communism" based in modes of exchange. capitalism is only the formal reality of our particular social intercourses.

>>23585
>if you treat criticism as unconditional, then wouldnt you have the imperative to demolish communist society as soon as it was established?
I would and maybe i could follow it, but more likely it would become the task of the next generations.

I more or less agree with your post. We started this tangent because you said the current spectrum of human desires was an expression of something immutable, despite being man-made in its current form. The burden is on you to reveal this species-being, which i find to be an absurd concept in itself.

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>>23586
>We started this tangent because you said the current spectrum of human desires was an expression of something immutable, despite being man-made in its current form.
its not about any particular objects of desire which express an essential human nature, but only that we can speak of desire itself. what must man desire? that is the question. if we achieved a post-oedipal society, what would eros look like, for example? the cynicism of this thinking however is that it is an essentialism in reverse, since it attempts to overcome "social constructs" to get at man's "real" nature, despite the fact that man's nature is inherently social. the further divulsion then becomes a choice; what *should* man desire? but this has its internal critique in the question, "who decides?" and why? simply, those who are able to decide; those in power, and why should we have leaders? and thus we enter into antagonism.
but all of this presupposes man's choice in the matter. but what is prefigured of this activity? to me, it is the construct of *society* itself. if man is a social creature, then his internal limits begin by the limits of society. to me, the most basic social ontology is mutual recognition, as graeber extrapolates. a society can have debts, division of labour and property, but in the end, it must possess some form of mediation by which its members are self-recognised. this is the constitution of social being itself, interpersonally and collectively. in the end, this is a relationship of equality, and so this is man's determination. whether friends, family, acquaintances or even strangers or pets, man must relate to himself through others. no man is an island. thus, all "choices" man makes are made from this original stipulation (where even intensely alienated societies can still achieve mutual recognition by consuming commodities, which acts as the social product).
so man's nature is necessitated upon this basis, which carries all other things, like morality, religion, art, sexuality and so on. in the end, you can link these back to the structure of society. even the thoughts in our heads have a particular language…

>>23587
>if we achieved a post-oedipal society, what would eros look like, for example?
I see glimpses of it alongside constant reterritorialization. For male homosexuals fucking is physically impossible without reproducing heterosexual relations, compare that to sapphic love where there need not be any such structure to the act, appearing more like an impediment. Therein the liberatory undercurrent of sex reveals itself: Good smut writers know a sex scene is meant to showcase the relationship between two characters, likewise when power relations recede the exchange of pleasure becomes a highly social act, one of mutual recognition. Does this answer your question?

>>23588
well once again i only see internal limits to sex
if sex is free, why not have sex with children, animals or corpses? who and what is able to be "liberated"?
sex is not free; we see this with fetishes, where the subject of sex is particularised to an object. we eroticise what we cannot possess; this is the psychoanalytic point. why do we always search fr the lost object in a mouth or anus or vagina? because it is a lacking object a priori.
so sex is not liberating in itself, but only ideological
this is why gay politics is recursive and loses its theoretical grounding
thus, eros must be sublimated by its alienation for us to truly "liberate" it via indirect social expression. its liberation is its internal negativity. multiplicity is not a positivistic relationship, but a negative relationship to being. this is precisely why man experiences his alienation in society, but can be alienated in a way that serves his desire (since desire begins in the other itself).

>>23589
>who and what is able to be "liberated"?
People from the pathology caused by heterosexuality.
>we eroticise what we cannot possess
Are fetishes not produced, precisely in moments when something else cannot be acquired? Lack does not in itself necessitate the production of desire, it needs to be mediated. Absence in itself is as much not-being as it is not-yet-being, conceptually a matrix, even a priori it need not remain as such.
>thus, eros must be sublimated by its alienation for us to truly "liberate" it via indirect social expression.
I cannot prove you wrong on this one, because i have yet to confront the object of my desire and confirm it to embody pleasure. The type of sublimation you describe does not seem to resolve the relevant contradictions though, only to displace them.

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>>23590
>People from the pathology caused by heterosexuality
well to me, heterosexual identity obscures a homoerotic (bisexual) essence, so at once, eroticises the "forbidden" constitution of its subjectivity (which is why heterosexuality and homosexuality both begin by an a priori homophobia). yet, as we see from femboys, transsexuals and other icons, hets are clearly attracted to them, but unconsciously, so this "pathology" you are describing is not the theoretical access to queer bodies, but only the self-limitations of sexuality itself - yet, the erotic suffices precisely by this prohibition, and thus adds to sexual enjoyment (such is the incest taboo, which is nonetheless expressed in its sublimated form via pornography). to put it in liberal terms, a heterosexual man can enjoy fucking another man, yet a homosexual man can never enjoy fucking a woman. so who's pathological now? 😛😁🙂‍↕️
again, if your idea is that we overcome all taboo and then finally we become "liberated" you are just a foolish essentialist who thinks sex isnt social, but is mechanical, akin to de sade's concept of the public orgy. i am dialectical on the other hand.
>Are fetishes not produced, precisely in moments when something else cannot be acquired?
no, i dont think its rational, but is very irrational. the foot fetish for example on the face of it seems more religious than sexual. it is a total submission to an object. the repetition of the fantasy however (in the ritual of the orgasm) points at us trying to possess some-thing, but never quite getting it. thats why sexual fantasies are these perfectly crafted narratives where we enter into its own internal logic. we lack the object, but can never have it.
>Lack does not in itself necessitate the production of desire, it needs to be mediated
yes, but lack is still the essence of whatever is desired, which is why we want it. if we had it, we wouldnt desire it.
>because i have yet to confront the object of my desire and confirm it to embody pleasure
my general point is that everything we do is driven by a sublimation, and thus serves as the motor for creative activity. whenever we arent masturbating, we're "mentally" masturbating or whatever. my point is that there are things we'd rather do than have sex, and thats when creativity begins.
>The type of sublimation you describe does not seem to resolve the relevant contradictions though, only to displace them.
yes absolutely. i dont think you can resolve contradictions except by advancing them further into negativity. life is suffering, and so on. but if you understand the death drive, you can understand how we simultaneously enjoy our suffering, so its fine. if things ever get too bad, we can just kill ourselves ;^)

>>23591
>well to me, heterosexual identity obscures a homoerotic (bisexual) essence
Only insofar as each of us can be socialized into any sexual attraction, where heterosociality creates the conflict you describe.
>you are just a foolish essentialist who thinks sex isnt social, but is mechanical
Even though a conversation isn't the mechanical relaying of speech either, it can both take place in the context of various power relations and without such a context. I'm not an idealist, we cannot return to a pre-patriarchical state if there ever was one, we only have the means to negate it.
>the foot fetish for example on the face of it seems more religious than sexual
No, it is very obviously not, i've seen foot fetishists themselves explain it: Despite not being very sexual on the face of it, you rarely see a strangers feet therefore seeing and going so far as to touch someones feet is a very intimate act.

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>>23592
>Only insofar as each of us can be socialized into any sexual attraction, where heterosociality creates the conflict you describe.
well, truth be told, my deepest point is that without heterosexuality, there also wouldnt be homosexuality. sexual orientation is internally contradictory. the great liberal deception is that you are "born gay", which is just uncritical discourse that attempts to ontologise sexuality as an irreconcilable (material) difference, rather than symbolic commensuration.
>Even though a conversation isn't the mechanical relaying of speech either, it can both take place in the context of various power relations and without such a context.
yes but at the same time, reason is universal, and thus all form of intelligible communication is "equal" in itself. discourses can be unequal or discursive, but these cant really be quantified either. if you could paint over class society with idpol, the bourgeoisie would have done it by now. what remains thus is a formal analysis, rather than particular analysis, of social relations.
>we cannot return to a pre-patriarchical state if there ever was one, we only have the means to negate it.
but negation can only mean mediation.
>Despite not being very sexual on the face of it, you rarely see a strangers feet therefore seeing and going so far as to touch someones feet is a very intimate act.
i will admit that i have a foot fetish. in particular i fantasise about my mother's feet (which i used to massage when i was younger), and in the depth of incestual fantasy, i become more and more infantile. this is psychological regression, which is common in religion (with God being our "father" who saves us from ourselves). also, "abba" as a name of God transliterates as "dada" and so signifies a sort of infantilism. the eucharist also is about consuming another person, like how we drink mother's milk - or how the foot fetishist attempts to consume the object. my general point is that fetish itself is a religious prefigurement, with sex being a form of religious ritual.

>>23593
>well, truth be told, my deepest point is that without heterosexuality
The disappearance of heterosexual attraction would naturally necessitate the disappearance of the sexes, cue various arguments about the transitional stages of a post-oedipal society.
>but negation can only mean mediation.
This is where you're wrong. The double negation sublates the former foundation in its own positive movement.
>if you could paint over class society with idpol, the bourgeoisie would have done it by now.
Would you say the same about race relation? The current psychosexual condition is inherently interwoven with class society. Firestone argues exploiting women on the basis of their reproductive capacity was their anthropological origin.
>sex being a form of religious ritual
Rather i think it is the opposite. Religion being the alienated expression of human social relations can itself carry sexual connotations.

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>>23594
>The disappearance of heterosexual attraction would naturally necessitate the disappearance of the sexes, cue various arguments about the transitional stages of a post-oedipal society.
what would a post-oedipal society look like politically?
>This is where you're wrong. The double negation sublates the former foundation in its own positive movement.
yes, however i am still under the presumption of a patriarchal instinct in the male sex (since phallus emerges naturally from the genital relation). you can only mediate this by negativity, but not erase it. this is also a contention between feminist and marxist theory. is patriarchy a form of class society, or is class society just a form of patriarchy?
>Would you say the same about race relation?
how do you mean?
>The current psychosexual condition is inherently interwoven with class society.
yes i agree.
>Firestone argues exploiting women on the basis of their reproductive capacity was their anthropological origin.
yes, the appropriation of the means of reproduction as it were. i think this may have commensuration with freud's anthropology in "totem and taboo" also, where the "primal father" of tribes acted as sexual monopolists, and civilisation began by killing the father and distributing the available mates (with this murder being symbolised in totemic rituals). the "death of God" is a motif older than Jesus.
i heard they gave money to monkeys once and they ended up creating a sex economy out of it, thus prostitution being "the oldest job in the world". to me, a woman's body is also inherently valuable, and so transacts a price.
to smith and marx, the first price was labour, but perhaps it was woman herself.
>Rather i think it is the opposite. Religion being the alienated expression of human social relations can itself carry sexual connotations
yeah thats fair. its either/or to me since its dialectical. religion and society are the same thing in different terms, even as feuerbach would understand it.

>>23595
>is patriarchy a form of class society, or is class society just a form of patriarchy?
As a mathematician i figure there is no way to know outside of anthropological research, because both can be restated in their respective terms.
>since phallus emerges naturally from the genital relation
If it comes down to it, castrating every existing phallus is not outside the realm of possibility. Artificial phalli are plentiful after all.
>how do you mean?
Race relations are also interwoven with capitalism, therefore you cannot "paint over class society [specifically the aspects which the relations are contingent on] with idpol", yet deeming racial equality as functionally impossible would be even absurder.

>>23596
>If it comes down to it, castrating every existing phallus is not outside the realm of possibility.
well this is the ultimate absurdity of feminist logic, no? castrate all misbehaving boys? lol. only a deranged lesbian can come up with that. but this is also a paradigmatic question that is asked; if not patriarchy, then what? matriarchy? robert graves says that before patriarchies, humans lived under matriarchies, but they werent any more peaceful. in the end, i embrace contradiction. there are no "final solutions" (ironic considering my flag 😛), but we all learn from history, dont we?
>Race relations are also interwoven with capitalism, therefore you cannot "paint over class society [specifically the aspects which the relations are contingent on] with idpol", yet deeming racial equality as functionally impossible would be even absurder.
yes i completely agree. race and class are basically the same thing, which is why even antisemitism has its intrinsic class relation (with lenin identifying it as a primitive form of class consciousness akin to trade union consciousness, although, i would say that antisemitism *can* be anticapitalist, but only contingently; its necessary being expresses anticommunism - so dialectically, you can be so close yet so far). for example, your average joe wants to publicly hang the "bankers", "elites", "oligarchs" et al, but hesitates when it comes to the "capitalists". here, signifiers matter. in the former are implied jews, but in the latter, something non-jewish is included. so the limits of anticapitalism are the limits of antisemitism imo. the fascinating sublimity of antisemitism is that it brings all races together for a brief moment lol, but to me, this is a world-historical consideration, where it concerns both christianity and islam fighting to be the "real jews". so its complicated. i'll leave it there for now.

>>23597
>humans lived under matriarchies, but they werent any more peaceful
And in primitive communism people were only united in barely subsisting. It's never a question of returning to a previous state.
>i embrace contradiction
This is again where we fundamentally differ. All contradictions need to be resolved, it is a question of how not if. I don't know how a post-oedipal would look like, but i wouldn't rule out any deranged lesbian death squads that would put the NKVD to shame (>ᴗ•)

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>>23598
>All contradictions need to be resolved
but this is like imagining that you can have the perfect orgasm, or taste the perfect food. if we understand that pleasure is a release of tension, and not a mechanical influx of dopamine, then we must be mature and realise that all things must be mediated, lest we chase after illusions. you can never possess the no-thing of your desire, all you can do is mourn its loss by fantasising about it.
if you equally understand that all of society is bound by the mutual antagonism of self and other, then you see the internal contradictions. as i say, liberals and other anti-social thinkers attempt to overcome contradiction by positing essentialism, but it fails. what we should strive for then is a mutual recognition that mediates an intrinsic alienation, since that is what society must necessarily be.
>but i wouldn't rule out any deranged lesbian death squads that would put the NKVD to shame
it'll be your balls being cut off first. on this note, you should watch the film "zardoz" which delves into this theme of the segregation of the genders.

>>23599
>imagining that you can have the perfect orgasm, or taste the perfect food
This would be utopianism. I'm arguing about what aspects of a new society i see in the old and honestly admitting i don't have a clue how to get there.
>we must be mature and realise that all things must be mediated
Numerous contradictions have intensified and ultimately been resolved throughout history. In the struggle for the women's vote, there was a clear organization along gender lines. Even though the prospect for change looks bleak both in terms of marxism and feminism, we have a framework of analysis and thus the means to discover revolutionary potential. While women do not have the same timebomb as the economy has attached to it, crises compound and there is bound to be a right moment to strike, organize, then strike again.
>it'll be your balls being cut off first.
I don't have strong feelings about them either way, only then you would need artificial testosterone because every human requires some of it. If they gave me enough painkillers and anatomical guidance, i would unironically do it myself. Who did you think you were talking to?

>>23600
>Numerous contradictions have intensified and ultimately been resolved throughout history
i wouldnt use the word "resolved", but maybe "advanced" or "progressed". as marx wrote, just because a new mode of production is advancing doesnt mean the entire world has caught up. i find it funny for example when westerners say "slavery has been abolished", when theres never been more slaves in human history. another paradox is with something like climate change; yes there is this massive pollution, but at the same time, there are more and more forests being grown. this is why hegel (and marx) understood world-history to be geographical, like marx writes here in the preface to capital vol. 1,
>"As in the 18th century, the American war of independence sounded the tocsin for the European middle class, so that in the 19th century, the American Civil War sounded it for the European working class. In England the process of social disintegration is palpable. When it has reached a certain point, it must react on the Continent."
this is why the concept of historical progress has to be understood, not necessarily as a transformation of the whole world, but only as the conditions that create a new way of orienting society. some might say that certain art-forms or peoples embody world-history, but they are necessarily particular, yet even in their particularity, they create a formal relationship to their idea which possesses the world. a good example is film. did you know that the invention of the movie camera happened at the exact same time in both france and america? this is weltgeist. another example is transsexuality today. the signifier of its identity spawned its mass unconscious identity. does this mean everyone will become trans? no. it only means that transgender identity is progressive of history's idea at the moment. it has served a place. what creates the new is giving signification to history's actuality. i can go deeper into the qabalism of it all but i'll leave it there.
>Who did you think you were talking to?
i was talking to a slave of a hypothetical matriarchy apparently. now you see symbolic castration come full circle? 🥲

>>23601
>a new mode of production is advancing doesnt mean the entire world has caught up
Things leave noticeable remnants as often as they don't. Looking back at tribal modes of productions there are patterns that remain in modern society and many that don't, you cannot wholesale claim no creative destruction has taken place. Do you honestly want to suggest people from a millenia ago would understand todays society as a "reorientation" of their own?
>weltgeist
You mean the human spririt i.e. the sum of all scientific and cultural knowledge organized by various institutions and individuals.
>i can go deeper into the qabalism
You've peaked my interest. I never understood liber 777.

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>>23602
>>23602
>Looking back at tribal modes of productions there are patterns that remain in modern society and many that don't, you cannot wholesale claim no creative destruction has taken place.
i would re-focus things to modes of exchange. primitive modes of exchange like gifting are still in use, and capitalism itself couldnt function without collecting history into itself. the great marxist illusion is that the whole world is capitalist and all of society is mediated by commodity exchange. if we just step back a bit, we realise that large swathes of the west have effectively missed the industrial revolution. this is history's own uneven development in the progression of the idea.
>You mean the human spririt i.e. the sum of all scientific and cultural knowledge organized by various institutions and individuals
well that would be a secular way of looking at it
>I never understood liber 777
its called "the book of lies" for a reason 😈
my point on qabalah is a very rationalistic one, that all of the english language is made up of 26 letters. 26 letters create the depth of all knowledge; therefore the mind is a closed system, a flat circle, circling in on itself. how then is knowledge possible, if all sounds have already been made? well, all words have been written, but just not in the same order. thus, it is the arrangement of words (gematria) that creates intelligibility. the mind thus becomes reflected as a shape of itself in society.
so, everything has already been said, but just not in the same order.
<"God said […]"
<"in the beginning was the WORD"
according from the sepher yezirah (or the "book of abraham" in islamic tradition) God created the world from the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet, which also corresponds to man (which are also the 22 cards of the tarot arcanum). gematria is the science of "geometry" or of ordering these letters in the right order to then have control over reality.
words have spell-ings and so on.
basically, language is literally magic, and the mind is made of symbols. if you harness the right symbols, you can control the world (like the norse runes).
the movie "pi" also explores this briefly.
society is role-playing; saturnalia showed us this..its all a great game of the gods, and we are pieces on a grand board. this is why heraclitus thought children were most enlightened, for they played games, like zeus.

>>23603
>primitive modes of exchange like gifting are still in use
What about the disappearance of dowry, or is that too specific? It looks like we will continue this semantics game, unless you clearly say what you think differentiates modes of exchange from other societal features, allowing them to remain in some capacity. How do you demarcate contradictions that may only be mediated?
>therefore the mind is a closed system
You might call me verbally regressive for this, but i see language as merely a transcription of thought. The mind works like an unstructured graph of qualiae, even words are ultimately dissolved into singular nodes only defined by their associations. If we hook up a modern computer to a teletypewriter and use it as our only means of interaction, in which ways does it constra1n the types of computations that may be done?
Flood detected; Post discarded. ajab

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>>23604
>It looks like we will continue this semantics game, unless you clearly say what you think differentiates modes of exchange from other societal features, allowing them to remain in some capacity
well the marxist idea is that modes of exchange express value between commodities. that isnt my meaning. admittedly, i generalise the concept, since graeber in "debt: the first 5000 years" also seems to be credit relations as intrinsic to society, and thus interpersonal relationships. this is why he tracks the etymology of certain manners to see how they relate to forgiving debts. the term "friend" itself originally signifying "free" association. the terms "thank you" and "youre welcome" also imply an indebtedness and a corresponding forgiveness of debts. some people still say "i owe you one", and when speaking of revenge people say they want "payback", or when we do good, we "redeem" ourselves. here, it seems as if human society is infested by economic signifiers, and thats true, but only symbolically. a debt for example, is imaginary, unless you back it up with force. thus, it can be forgiven or punished at any time. so i would say that "exchange" to me is just another way of talking about social interactivity. commodity-exchange in particular arises under different circumstances. i would say that what distinguishes between modes of exchange is where it concerns the object of exchange, which can be inherently tied to production, but i would also say that you can make a marxist appeal to distinguish between a lumpen, a peasant, an artisan, and a proletariat. my point is just that there arent as many proletarians in the world as people imagine, and that internally (and this is to marx's point), capitalism literally cannot afford to proletarianise the world (which is why it creates the reserve army of labour in the first place). so i still see capital's internal contradictions, but i dont humiliate myself pretending to be a "prole", as if my existence is revolutionary. thats cope. in my vocation, i am a lumpen anyway, so perhaps you can write me off as a reactionary bottomfeeder; its true enough.
>i see language as merely a transcription of thought. The mind works like an unstructured graph of qualiae, even words are ultimately dissolved into singular nodes only defined by their associations
so basically, you think we have too many words? we are all lost in translation for the same concepts? i disagree, since to me, particular signifiers matter.
>If we hook up a modern computer to a teletypewriter and use it as our only means of interaction, in which ways does it constra1n the types of computations that may be done?
why would it be different to how we talk now? because we are losing the medium of typing? to me, the mind is always mediated, which is why we only remember dreams as we wake up. the mind is not an object, but is a subject. you cant grasp the mind since it doesnt just live in our heads, but lives in society.

>>23605
>capitalism literally cannot afford to proletarianise the world
This an interesting concept that mirrors the unequal development inherent in imperialist economy, but wouldn't the falling rate of profit sooner or later drive capitalists to cannibalize these reservers? Are there simply too many of these stabilizing factors, does profit need to approach zero first? For example in the west it seems like gift-giving, that has long been connected to social capital, has become perceived as even more transactional lately. Compare that to the pre-modern idea of hospitality.
>so basically, you think we have too many words?
Thought is less constra1ned than language. We use nuance in language to approximate the nuance in our own internal thought patterns.
>the mind is always mediated
True in a formative sense, yet a developed mind is after all able to assume the alienated position of a philosopher. There is a nuance here or intiuitive and gnostic thought would be impossible.

>>23606
>but wouldn't the falling rate of profit sooner or later drive capitalists to cannibalize these reservers?
well, the welfare state along with subsidies have mitigated various crises of "overproduction" (unemployment) by converting the lumpen into consumers, to create profits. the trend of automation is only a further lumpenisation which is why if you got rid of all of unprofitable jobs in the economy, at least 20% of employees would be shafted. now a marxist mjght naively suggest a reindustrialisation to make labour "productive", but this is not the point. marx's predictions have come true, that our labour-power is to such an extent that we can all share positions of employment and thus drive down the working day. the crisis of capital is coming to a head thus, where it will either offer UBI or it will crumble (it is already crumbling after all). the issue with capital is that its simply too productive, and so it has no need of lumpens except as consumers.
>For example in the west it seems like gift-giving, that has long been connected to social capital, has become perceived as even more transactional lately. Compare that to the pre-modern idea of hospitality.
well, monetisation =/= value-creating. if i give you £100 then somehow that £100 gets back to me, we do nothing except engage in symbolic exchange, like birthday cards and presents.
>Thought is less constra1ned than language
i think its dialectical. for us to conceive a thought, it must be expressed in some concrete form. there is no image of thinking; there is only speaking the unspeakable. thinking has no meaning if it doesnt enter society. this is why i say that if we consider the mind as an object, it contains infinity within itself; so the purpose of society is to unravel this infinity in words.
>There is a nuance here or intiuitive and gnostic thought would be impossible
explain

>>23607
>the crisis of capital is coming to a head thus, where it will either offer UBI or it will crumble (it is already crumbling after all).
So if it is fated to collapse, all outmoded modes of exchange that feed into the economy will likewise, or do you assume capitalism will be superseded by something precisely because it can reterritorialize them?
>monetisation =/= value-creating
The value is created by stimulating demands for gifts, cash being frowned upon outside of certain social contexts like a childs birthday or a wedding.
>for us to conceive a thought, it must be expressed in some concrete form
Yes, but once we have received enough forms (i think this is the psychological stage of realization), we can in some cases autonomously perceive of the world around us and freely adapt our conceptions to suit reality. If dialectics is the motion of thought after all, the wealth of synthesized thought is greater than that which we can realistically receive, while still occupyin g the entire spectrum of abstract and concrete. You're right that language can state some thoughts more clearly, this clarity coming at a considerable cost. Combing through infinity for something is easy when you're doing it all the time. I find myself thinking of past events, past emotions, past thought processes more often than going through the letters of the alphabet to find the right word (i do this only when struggling to express myself in language).

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>>23608
>>23608
>So if it is fated to collapse, all outmoded modes of exchange that feed into the economy will likewise, or do you assume capitalism will be superseded by something precisely because it can reterritorialize them?
i consider capitalism to primarily be a mode of distribution, not a particular form of commodity-exchange. as marx notes, the essentially capitalist commodity is labour-power, which produces surplus value (through its use-value, not its exchange-value), so you might say capitalism is based in wage-exchange, but thats getting too thickety, especially since wage-labour has existed throughout all of history. marx says that bourgeois society is crafted via "primitive accumulation" whereby private and social property becomes bourgeois (commercial) property through state re-allocation. the capitalist himself as marx says is a miser (a hoarder), but a mercantilist hoarder, turned investor. in money, property and power, he is a monopolist, which is from where he is able to create dependence for the public. so the capitalist is in the first place, a monopolist, not a humble competitor. this constitutes what i call "the end of exile" where capital is deterritorialised yet labour is made entirely territorial (the factory and prison in modernity are the same thing, as foucault understands). marx gives an example where those who wished to flee early industry were forced to work by being hunted down, but the cruelty of capitalism (and what constitutes its unconscious) is that the wage-slave is forced to sell himself, and so his surplus is hidden, via the appearance and essence of labour.

the issue then is that capital's sphere of exchange is too limited. to exchange means to share; to give, and not take. the capitalist exchanges for labour-power but he doesn't give enough in wages. he hires men, but doesn't hire enough men to work. the contradiction here is that money is how we (legally) access commodities, yet society's money is sterile in a dusty vault. the limit of the capitalist is that he literally cannot invest all his money into society, but only into profit. this is why the drive for profit undoes profit, since in the end, no one has a job, so no one has money.

this state of affairs also gives us a contemporary paradox, where in some sense, consumerism acts as an ideological rival to capitalism, by reversing the imperatives of the relations of production (the same way that in the west, the superstructure took precedence over the economic base, causing many marxists to actually become quasi-reactionary in attempting to revive industrial subjectivity). the crises of overproduction thus have inverted into crises of underconsumption; this i think has shifted capitalist subjectivity from production to exchange. the reserve army of labour then (as a surplus proletariat) have proven to be the revolutionary subject, even as engels writes in a preface to capital vol. 1,
>"While the productive power increases in a geometric, the extension of markets proceeds at best in an arithmetic ratio. The decennial cycle of stagnation, prosperity, over-production and crisis, ever recurrent from 1825 to 1867, seems indeed to have run its course; but only to land us in the slough of despond of a permanent and chronic depression. The sighed for period of prosperity will not come; as often as we seem to perceive its heralding symptoms, so often do they again vanish into air. Meanwhile, each succeeding winter brings up afresh the great question, “what to do with the unemployed"; but while the number of the unemployed keeps swelling from year to year, there is nobody to answer that question; and we can almost calculate the moment when the unemployed losing patience will take their own fate into their own hands."
i think its for this reason that the socialist causes across the world have never been led by an industrial proletariat, but only by the mass of the "people" (akin to the nationalism of the french revolution). this is why all successful socialisms also appear as nationalisms and why the "reactionary mass" is what it is; Spirit.

so maybe i am a succdem (a "social fascist", or a "bourgeois socialist" as marx calls the lasalleans in critique of the gotha program), but to me, re-distribution is the key transition from capitalism into socialism, which then broadens the sphere of exchange, as industrial production (via automation) becomes more and more alienated. lenin said that his vision of socialism was society as a factory floor, but to me, its more like a shopping mall (or the internet). this however is only the primary stage of socialism, which will become much more communal overtime, as exchange becomes decommodified and enters into a symbolic framework. socialism means a mass gift-economy. thus you will have a form of public religion, as hegel understands it, and the end of history shall be twain met by prehistory. the solemn tomb of the factory is now expessed in the pagan feasts of music festivals, as a form of a collective identity. we have become increasingly culturally mediated. Jesus turns water into wine.

so to conclude, capitalism crumbling only means the liberation of mankind, either by reverting historical forms, or by advancing them, since it enters us into free exchange either way. as mark fisher says, "capital is an anti-market"; an "anti-culture". what we want is "markets, not capitalism" et al. what people want is to live in a society.

>The value is created by stimulating demands for gifts, cash being frowned upon outside of certain social contexts like a childs birthday or a wedding.

well i was using a marxist concept of value. if we share a fixed amount of cash, we can only engage in commodity-circulation (C-M-C) and thus never expand trade into an expanded market of goods. this is why symbolic exchange is primarily interpersonal, while commodity-exchange, turned to capital-circulation (M-C-M'), is international, since it inscribes a surplus. travel is a rent on goods, as the "bridge tolls" of the past tell us, and still today.

>Yes, but once we have received enough forms (i think this is the psychological stage of realization), we can in some cases autonomously perceive of the world around us and freely adapt our conceptions to suit reality.

by forms of thought, do you mean something like an alphabet and grammar? a symbolic framework to conceptualise with?
>if dialectics is the motion of thought after all, the wealth of synthesized thought is greater than that which we can realistically receive, while still occupyin g the entire spectrum of abstract and concrete
well this is the paradox as i say. all knowledge is actual to the mind, and the mind can be expressed by 26 letters. therefore, all of knowledge is self-completed in-itself, and so what we do is negatively construct in-complete knowledge (like how there are too many books to read or too many movies to watch). to have knowledge thus is to lose the self-completion of knowledge. there is no original thought or original speech, but only an original *sequence* of thought or speech. this is why as hegel says, "history is the spirit emptied out into TIME".

>Combing through infinity for something is easy when you're doing it all the time. I find myself thinking of past events, past emotions, past thought processes more often than going through the letters of the alphabet to find the right word (i do this only when struggling to express myself in language).

well all languages are self-limiting, and this is the dialectic. whenever we think, we are embodying the formless infinity into a finite being, but if we only dwelled in the formless, we would have no thoughts at all. to know every-thing is know no-thing, such as socrates says. however, i see a progressive embodiment of mind in creation, and therefore appeal to my own ignorance as a limited creature. now, where it concerns languages, something is *always* lost in translation, and so infinity has no name. the occult delusion is that you can call upon the name of God as tetragrammaton (YHWH). vain works.

but language is not the only form of communication. animals communicate, computers communicate; even atoms communicate. art-forms often express the nameless. ah, but does this then qualify as a form of knowledge? well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it cannot be said to be *known* until it is spoken of, and therefore entered into a social judgement (such that if i see a UFO and have no proof, i might as well be hallucinating. only in re-presentation do things attain reality). so i think there are forms of un-knowable communications which we are constantly engaging in, but poetry is giving infinity a name, and art is giving it a face. they capture some-thing, but not every-thing, and we should be glad for this sake, for elsewise, we would have no-thing at all. this is my own "materialism" and vitalism. laugh til you cry; live til you die. so mote it be.

>>23617
>i consider capitalism to primarily be a mode of distribution
Commodity exchange directly gives rise to commodity production, both reinforcing the precedence of bourgeois interests and naturally encroaching on other modes.
>the reserve army of labour then (as a surplus proletariat) have proven to be the revolutionary subject
From my cursory knowledge it appears this group has often supplied the foot soldiers to revolution and reaction alike. Do they constitute a revolutionary subject with their own class interests or are they only fit to be used in the name of anothers?
>re-distribution is the key transition from capitalism into socialism
I don't see how you could have commodity production without commodity exchange. Isn't state capitalism the natural solution to the task, socializing industry from the bottom up?
>well i was using a marxist concept of value.
I should have phrased that more clearly. Raising the social expectations for gitf-giving grows the market for gift products, that can consequently be exploited, thus raising the rate of profit in this industry. Maybe your argument that consumerism indicates a shift towards the more forceful cultivation of new markets is accurate, but i see this as a thread existing from its mercantilist origins and already becoming very prominent in imperalist exploitation.

>by forms of thought, do you mean something like an alphabet and grammar?

By its nature it is something i cannot freely observe. I only know that concepts come to me faster than words, because when thinking in words i noticeable subvocalize each syllable.
>well all languages are self-limiting
The conceptual beauty of all language (programming languages included) its being as thought. It may be endlessly modified, be adapted and mutate itself into whatever serves its function. The tarot perfectly embodies this: There are various orthodox interpretations of the arcana, yet the common approach is to meditate on them and derive your own meanings from a particular deck. This creates a symbolic language describing numerous personal, social and metaphysical relatioships to a degree of sophistication beholden to the reader.

>>23564
>mostly where it concerns non-fiction. fiction is a feminine category (since it is born from repression/castration). sci-fi also acts as a semi-fiction, with its abstract worldbuilding.

I beg to differ. Men are just as inclined to nonfiction as fiction. It's just that most general pop literary works is just cheap romance or midlife crisis stories.
You know, the kind we see on LifeTime or Hallmark Channels, respectively.

>>23603
You know that language was derived from pictograms and phonemes?
And yes language is a type of magic.
Even in religion, a lot of God's get their power from mere words.
Christianity talks about how Christ was a Logos before he was manifested as Man.

Also, language is more phonetic than it is graphemic.
I feel that the reason why literacy is just a common issue in education is because people forget that kids learn more from sounds first than letters.
Remember, the first languages were oral before they were written.
In fact, alot of letters had phonetic changes throughout the centuries.

>>23519
So you understand the difference between sexual and romantic attraction.
Or rather there's also physical sexual and psycho-sexual.

Like how you find women more attractive when they're clothed than nude.
Youre more romantic than erotic.

>yes, but unconsciously. the dialectic of arousal is that it mistakes the appearance of the sexual for its erotic essence, when the true substance of sexuality is narration (i.e. fiction). this is why i say that i am womanly by appealing to the object-ivity of sexual desire (in the text of the fantasy).

in kantian terms, masculinity is spatial by taking the appearance of things as their rational form, while femininity is temporal by taking the narrative as its essential form. both are right and both are wrong. you need a "synthetic a priori" to unite the two.

I beg to differ.
Men are more "concrete" in their reaction but to say they're not abstractionally inclined is wrong.
Even in physicality, to make something addictive requires tweaking nuances. Either by lighting, texture, soundscape, etc.

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>>23620
>You know that language was derived from pictograms and phonemes?
yes of course.
>Even in religion, a lot of God's get their power from mere words. Christianity talks about how Christ was a Logos before he was manifested as Man.
<"in the beginning was the WORD
>Also, language is more phonetic than it is graphemic.
yes absolutely. thats why "universal" literacy is only quite recent. people learn to speak before they read, since reading is commonly just a form of silent speaking. the distinction between grammar and phonetics is also important in gematria (and as a cultural analog, hip hop and other "lower class" aesthetics).
>In fact, alot of letters had phonetic changes throughout the centuries.
regarding grammar, i always like to bring up the fact that the ampersand (&) used to be considered the 27th letter of the alphabet.
>>23621
>Like how you find women more attractive when they're clothed than nude. Youre more romantic than erotic.
i wouldnt make a distinction. to me, the erotic is only contrary to the sexual. it is sex-without-sex; the fantasy before orgasm. romance is also a fantasy.
>Men are more "concrete" in their reaction but to say they're not abstractionally inclined is wrong.
they are both, but one form must have primacy, while the other is repressed. my point on eros also is that porn could never just be pure sex, but must have a narrative, since narrative is porn's unconscious; it mediates the appearance of sexuality with an inverted erotic essence. i am more womanly because to me, i care about the story more than the sex itself. to me, sex is not just about sex, but to most men, it seems like it is.

>>23618
>Commodity exchange directly gives rise to commodity production, both reinforcing the precedence of bourgeois interests and naturally encroaching on other modes.
well both are self-included of course. its a chickeuygh situation, like how marx in ch. 5 of capital vol. 1 says,
>"impossible for capital to be produced by circulation, and it is equally impossible for it to originate apart from circulation. It must have its origin both in circulation and yet not in circulation. We have, therefore, got a double result."
thats dialectics.
also, commodities are not just a capitalist construct to marx, but exist in all forms of exchange, which is marx's theoretical limit. he does qualify this in ch. 2 by saying that "value" (abstract labour) only mediates exchange when it is taken as such, so in marx's anthropology, the line between barter and commodity-exchange is thin.
graeber says that all exchanges incur at least a psychic debt which mediates between persons, and i would agree, except that i dont think simply mediating a formal transaction makes a medium of exchange a "measure of value". you cant quantify resentment for example - which is why for some, it doesnt matter how much you offer them, they will still hate you. i had a similar experience where i hated my step-dad and he tried to show me how much he loved me by listing all the things he bought me. to him, love has a price (a quantity). to me, its priceless (a quality). we might say then that an item becomes a commodity by contracting an exchange-value, at the theshold where the priceless gains a price. a symbolic exchange of goods is different, since the money you give always comes back to you.
>From my cursory knowledge it appears this group has often supplied the foot soldiers to revolution and reaction alike. Do they constitute a revolutionary subject with their own class interests or are they only fit to be used in the name of anothers?
we might say they are revolutionary *objects* in most cases then. but my point on subjectivity is that in the logic of markets you have supply and demand, and translated into hegelian terms, you have servants and masters. in the dialectic of the market, the consumers are the ones who *demand* and the capitalists are those who *supply*. value is created by consumption, so like the servant, the social determination is given to the inferior, who rises to superiority. the lumpen have been made into a consuming class (a "leisure class"), showing how capitalism hinges on reacting to this group. ernst junger in his text "total mobilisation" also calls the lumpen more revolutionary than the proletariat i believe.
>Maybe your argument that consumerism indicates a shift towards the more forceful cultivation of new markets is accurate, but i see this as a thread existing from its mercantilist origins and already becoming very prominent in imperalist exploitation.
maybe. it might just be a house of cards. i hear leninists refer to the west as superimperialists and labour aristocrats. probably. but nonetheless i only speak from what i can understand. what has happened in the west since ww2 seems important.
>I only know that concepts come to me faster than words, because when thinking in words i noticeable subvocalize each syllable.
yes, i dont deny the presence of the mind, but it still must present itself in spatio-temporal terms. this is part of hume and kant's critique of rationalism. for the mind to attain reality, it must be self-limited as an actuality. lacan says "the unconscious has the structure of a language". we often see how the symbols of the mind act like metaphors. so the question is, do natural symbols create the mind, or does the mind create symbols? again, its the chicken and egg.
>The tarot perfectly embodies this: There are various orthodox interpretations of the arcana, yet the common approach is to meditate on them and derive your own meanings from a particular deck.
this is like the death of the author. if you interpreted the tarot a certain way but then found a dusty manuscript and it was from the creator of the tarot explaining the symbols, what would happen to your interpretation. i suppose it matters whether youre more catholic or protestant in the end. dogmatism versus individual judgement. let us not be cowards however and say "its all interpretation". the purpose of judgement is still make a *correct* (normative) judgement.


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