/edu/ - Education

>>5376
The germans were killing alot of polish intiligentsia to gain more power over the poles so my bet is it was the Nazis that then blamed it on the soviets so the poles would support them more
And wasnt the ammunition that was used german?soviet_unionSoviet Union

I did it.egoismEgoism

Here's Grover Furr's version of the story.

>>5378
>so the poles would support them more
there was no way for nazis to get poles to support them. the only thing they could achieve with this was minimize polish attacks and sabotages against them

>>5381
>police badges in Vladimir-Volynsky
the russian historical society "Memorial" claims that bodies of the policemen weren't found there only their badges

>>5384
>the russian historical society "Memorial" claims that bodies of the policemen weren't found there only their badges
https://www.memo.ru/media/uploads/2019/10/19/mednoe_t1.pdf

page 79 - 81

<[…]
<The fate of one of them, Ludwik Małowiejski, was traced back to the moment of their capture thanks to the archival documents of the NKVD , which made it possible to explain the find made in 2011 during the exhumation of mass graves of 1940-1941 by Polish and Ukrainian archaeologists. on the territory of the former prison in the city of Vladimir-Volynsky, Volyn region of Ukraine. During excavations was found a police service registration plate with number 1099 / II, belonging to Ludwik Małowiejski from Lodz. A year earlier, Ukrainian archaeologists found there a service registration plate with the number 1441 / II, which belonged to another prisoner of the Ostashkov camp, a policeman from Lodz, Józef Kuligowski186 (Roman numeral II in the numbers of both service signs means the pre-war Lodz District of the State Police). After the announcement of these finds, Russian publications appeared in which the discovery of police service registration plates during the excavation of mass graves in Vladimir-Volynsky was interpreted as evidence that Jozef Kuligovsky and Ludwik Maloveysky were buried there, which means that they were shot in 1941 by the German Nazis in Vladimir-Volynsky, and this was interpreted as one of the facts proving that there were no “shot Poles” in Mednoye at all187 (without any justification for the admissibility of such an expansive extrapolation). The fact that during the exhumations in Volodymyr-Volynskiy the police insignia were not found among human remains, but in the bulk layer above the burials, was ignored in these publications.

so yeah, the Grover Furr theory stands on shaky grounds

>>5378
>And wasnt the ammunition that was used german?
idk, but that by itself doesn't prove anything. NKVD was buying foreign weapons and ammunition all the time

>>5387
Yeah, but the sheer amount of german ammo manufactured in 1941 is really shady. I mean, they could be fake, but it isn't likely.

From Grover's study, page 25-26:
<Details of the shells, 150 in all, found in grave No. 1 are given in footnote 3, page 8 of the Polish
report but are absent from the Ukrainian report:

<1. "kam, 67, 19, 41" – 137 units; 2. "dnh, *, 1, 41" – 7 units; 3. Geco, 9 mm. – 1 unit; 4. Shells
without markings, 7.62 x 25 caliber, USSR production of 1930s type – 5 units.

<These identifying marks on shell casings are known as "headstamps". According to the analysis
by Sergei Strygin "kam, 67, 19, 41" signifies the Hasag factory in Skarżysko-Kamienna, "67"
the percentage of copper in the bullet, "19" the lot number, and "41" the year of production. "dnh
*, 1, 41" signifies the Dürlach factory, "*" means the shell was jacketed in brass; "1" is the lot
number, and "41" the year of production. One hundred forty-four, or 96% of the 150 shells found,
were of German make and can be dated to 1941.

<The Polish, but not the Ukrainian, report also specifies the shells found in grave No. 2:

<1. "Kam, 67, 19, 41" – 205 units; 2. "dny, *, 1, 41" – 17 units; 3. Shells without markings,
7.62x25 caliber – USSR production of 1930s – 2 units; (one) shell "B , 1906."

<Of 225 shells found in this grave, 205 are the German 1941 "Hasag" type, 17 are the German
1941 "Dürlach" type, 2 are of the unmarked 1930s Soviet type; and one is marked "B 1906."
Hence 98.67% of the shells are of 1941 German manufacture.

>>5390
yeah, but the problem is that he talks about Volodymyr - Volynski found I talked here>>5386, it was a small prison where nazis massacred people but it is probably unrelated to the incidents we nowadays call "Katyn massacre"

>>5386
It is not, because the other explanation is that NKVD shot those men and then put badges into the site of german mass shooting. Which is a stretch to say the least.

>>5533
>because the other explanation is that NKVD shot those men and then put badges into the site of german mass shooting.
it isn't, the other explanation is that the two officers were deported to Ostashkov and the badges stayed in Volodymyr-Volynski and after the german occupation they were just thrown out

>>5376
Bolsheviks killed anyone who opposed them, especially in countries which they were at war with and considered to be their territory (former russian empire lands). There are literal nkvd documents from beria to stalin released by russian archives detailing it, katyn isn't even anything special, this was their usual everyday routine for the nkvd, they didn't even try to hide it with their "extermination/destruction" battalions which were created to quickly exterminate any resistance, but instead went killing random people. It was totally public, no one tried to hide that. Happy that beria got shot after his friend stalin died.

>>5591
shit, the drooling morons from pol and reddit found edu and gonna shit up the threads

katyn from the nazi viewpoint

>>5710
https://www.net-film.ru/film-51471/
cadres from Leningrad trial with the nazi war criminals (1946) including Arno Düre, who was accused of war crimes against the polish officers in Katyn

>>5376
the nazis had a motive but the NKVD version is very well documented

Nazis, anyone telling you otherwise is one themselves.
https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv16n2/katyn.htmlenin_capLenin Cap

>>6250
>very well documented
The only "proof" I've ever seen is Closed Packet no.1, whereas the evidence the Nazis did it is considerably stronger. https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv16n2/katyn.htm

>>6261
>whereas the evidence the Nazis did it is considerably stronger.
well, with the soviet version we at least know that the POW camps existed, we know who worked there.
In the case of the version with germans being behind the crime, we have no single document that took the POW camps, or that they created new ones (so called ON camps mentioned in the Burdenko report), we have no proof of existance of the supposed commanders of these camps.
After Burdenko comission the soviets never even attempted to do another investigation, they didn't even try to find the supposed nazi criminals who did the massacre. The only nazi who was ever put on trial for Katyn was Arno Düre who was supposedly burying the dead officers but he was released from prison in 1954 and when he returned to Germany he claimed that he was forced to make this testimony.

so even if we completely disregard the version that NKVD did it, we still don't know what actually happened. The only proofs for Katyn massacre being done by nazis are those brought by Burdenko commission, which is also not much.

NKVD, documents prove it and i don’t believe tankies that openly justify many other of stalin/beria’s ethnically targeted atrocities like deportations to central asia would be so surprised that bolsheviks were capable of such a thing

>>10230
>documents prove it
Documents? You mean the ones that got admitted to being forgeries? Or perhaps the documents by Nazi Germany?
>tankies that openly justify many other of stalin/beria’s ethnically targeted atrocities
>deportations to central asia
<Muh tankies!
Fuck of liberal
https://manofsteel.quora.com/What-do-Stalin-supporters-think-of-his-deportations-of-ethnic-minorities-3

>>10236
that quora thing is basically admitting it was done systematically against certain ethnicities, but waffling pathetically around it. again don’t know why you’d even be so surprised if this is the kind of stuff you think

>>10240
>admitting it was done systematically against certain ethnicities
>waffling
<Let me take a point out of context to portray it as admission!
You argue in bad faith and use a false narrative to try and claim another false narrative, and cry about "le evul Stalin/Beria/tankeez" in the mean time. I'd suggest going to >>>/leftypol/ or better yet reddit, those liberal echo-chambers are more your speed.
>inb4 'N-no u echochamber'
People have discussed Katyn and the debate of it being the NKVD or not before, they also discussed Soviet deportations before, this is acceptable discourse. You are engaging in dishonest fallacies, putting a slight spin on old Cold War myths and exaggerations.

https://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/katyn/

This is a pretty good examination of it all, It's important to note though that most Communists are able to admit mistakes and excesses commited by Socialist nations. I don't doubt that when the Soviet Union started taking in Polish officers (Most of who fought in the Polish-Soviet war) they treated them pretty badly, but the idea they spread is that one executioner (Vasily Blokhin) executed tens of thousands of Poles by himself right next to Smolensk (A city of at least a hundred thousand and all with German guns and bullets) and nobody knew till the Nazis came by is just insane.

Relevant to the thread: Yuri Muhin's Катынская Подлость is a video version of his book Антироссийская Подлость: Расследование фальсификации катынского дела Польшей и Генеральной прокуратурой России с целью разжечь ненависть поляков к русским. — М.: Крымский мост-9Д, Форум, 2003. — 762 с.

https://www.veoh.com/watch/v16363590Z2fz4j8s

https://web.archive.org/web/20121030125555/http://www.erlib.com/Юрий_Мухин/Антироссийская_подлость/

The Book and film are a detailed, section by section dissection of Katyn myths and the context of Polish, German and Soviet actions before, during and after the war.