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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1621348899602.png (45.43 KB, 300x300, chem.png)

 No.5724

Let's have a thread about chemistry. I can't be the only amateur chemist on here. To please the mods, everything in here is purely academic. Check local laws before you embark on your projects. And before you do anything, make sure you have appropriate safety equipment. Think about the worst thing that could happen to your reaction, because chances are it will. Don't be stupid.

Resources
https://www.sciencemadness.org/ The go-to site for amateur chemists
Wiki: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Main_Page
Forums, require email registration: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/

Archive.org has plenty of old chemistry textbooks. The most useful ones for me are those meant to teach youngsters from the early 1900's.

YouTube
NurdRage, the OG channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage
NileRed, the internet's premier piss chemist: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRedNile
NileBlue, secondary channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1D3yD4wlPMico0dss264XA
Explosions&Fire, energetic materials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVovvq34gd0ps5cVYNZrc7A
Extractions&Ire, secondary channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvFApMFo_AafXbHRyEJefjA
Cody'sLab, chemistry and physics: https://www.youtube.com/user/theCodyReeder
ChemistNATE, educational: https://www.youtube.com/user/chemistNATE

 No.5725

post it on /edu/

 No.5726

Back from other stuff.
>>5725
Good idea. Perhaps a mod would be willing to move the thread.

Where to get chemicals
Useful chemicals can be found in many places. Read the material safety datasheets (MSDS) that goes with certain products. Useful places include:
Grocery stores
Hardware stores
Garden suppliers
Pool supply stores

Online suppliers in the EU:
https://www.amertek.co.uk/
https://keten.com.pl/
https://www.pyrogarage.pl/home_en.htm

Equipment
Get borosilicate glass if you plan on heating things. *Do not use soda glass*. If you don't know what you have, assume it's soda glass.

Places to get equipment include:
Hardware stores
Educational equipment suppliers
China, search for "lab glassware" on https://www.aliexpress.com/ . *Beware of Chinese suppliers selling soda glass as borosilicate*, there's a sciencemadness forum thread about this.

 No.5727

What's the coolest thing you've made? better not be homemade crystals from /b/

I've made simple explosives but only legally for film props. if there's a revolution you can count on me to have smoke.

 No.5728

>>5727
high temperature electrochemistry, but that's not very exciting for regular peeps. so, the usual: R-candy, smoke bombs and thermite

I have plans to "upgrade" some NaNO3 to KNO3 via metathesis with KCl. after that I might get into HNO3 synthesis by electrolysing bog water

 No.5729

>>5728
>mfw caught my chemistry-hobbiest friend collecting rust in a bucket
He insisted it wasn't for thermite, but come on.

 No.5730

>>5729
>I swear, it's for catalysing a fischer-tropsch reaction

 No.5960

File: 1622715455526-0.jpg (48.35 KB, 800x610, AcOH.jpg)

I've been experimenting with ways of concentrating acetic acid. pic related is 4 ml ~66% AcOH by weight based on it being liquid at -20°C. freeze distillation worked best for this, but the yield isn't great: 4%

I tried simple distillation too, and despite AcOH and H2O not forming any azeotrope I didn't see much improvement over the 24% white vinegar I started with. it also formed copper acetate in my condenser, which I should have thought about tbh

next step is trying to drive off the water by mixing in IPA and distilling off the IPA+water mix (and resulting isopropyl acetate). molecular sieves would probably work better, but I don' have any

 No.5961

>>5960
I forgot my freeze distillation method:

1) cool your white vinegar down enough to where it becomes a slurry and filter it until you get maybe 1/3 of the initial volume
2) put the mixture in a jar and stand it upright in a freezer
3) once the mixture has frozen, tip the jar over and let it sit in the freezer like that for a day
4) a small pool of liquid should have formed, separate from the frozen fraction. pour that off into a separate container

the concentration of the final fraction depends on the temperature in the freezer. the temperature must be above -26.7°C for this to work.

 No.7293

bumping with tips for EU comrades: sulfuric acid is hard to come by here, unless you boil and purify acid from old car batteries. but for many recipes sodium bisulfate (NaHSO4) works just as well. it's sold as a pH lowerer for pools, in the monohydrate form. it melts around 50°C too, so you don't really need to add water to it
more fun can be had in the pool department. TCCA is usually sold as a chlorination agent. in chemistry it is useful for generating chlorine gas by adding HCl. if you add ammonia (NH3) instead you will make NCl3, an unstable explosive

 No.8870

how 2 meth?
also, came across this a while ago, thought it was interesting https://simplifier.neocities.org/

 No.8874

File: 1639144742349.png (Spoiler Image, 138.6 KB, 666x507, image.png)

>>8870
>how 2 meth?

 No.8881

>>8874
joke

 No.9484

>>8870
it's been a while since I checked out simplifier. this one is kinda neat:
https://simplifier.neocities.org/electrochromic.html

I can recommend Caveman Chemistry:
http://cavemanchemistry.com/
the entire book is available online here:
http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/
if you click the links it won't actually take you to the relevant page, probably due to Referer being set. you need to copy-paste the links into the address bar for it to work

I have in mind to make a small (1 g) amount of nitrocellulose using stuff obtainable in the EU. should take a day or two

 No.9485

>>9484
cool. i've always wanted to have a lab for doing chemistry and physics experiments since i was little, never had the opportunity

 No.9486

>>8874
guides to make meth are abundant online actually. They are probably legal too

 No.9487

>>9485
I recently invested in some glassware and various salts, metals, NaOH and acids. enables fun little experiments. like making soap and biodiesel
I set up a nitration solution with some cotton in it. it's going to sit like that for 24 hours so I should have results tomorrow. I should be able to gauge the degree of nitration by weighing it after washing and drying

>>8870
>>9486
I actually looked up amphetamine synthesis and meth synthesis a while back. it involves mercury salts. noped the fuck out

 No.9488

>>9487
soap is cool. why would you wanna make biodiesel though

https://unitednuclear.com/ also, anyone have experience with these guys? they seem to source a lot of… unconventional commodities that other chemistry might not i think

 No.9489

>>9488
other chemistry suppliers*

 No.9490

File: 1642980095723.gif (22.12 KB, 122x186, nerd.gif)

>>9488
>soap is cool. why would you wanna make biodiesel though
just for fun. the process is similar except you substitute the water for an alcohol. might get a tractor at some point, would be useful then. grow hemp -> hemp seed + press + methanol -> fuel

>https://unitednuclear.com/ also, anyone have experience with these guys?

nope, but I love the site's aesthetics

 No.9493

>>9487
update: I set up another nitration experiment. first one has about 6 hours left to go

 No.9494

>>9493
update on the first batch: I washed and dried it. no change in mass. burns just like regular cotton. so that's a bust

 No.9508

>>9494
tending to the second batch at the moment. seems the sulfuric acid split up most of the cotton into shorter cellulose chains. so what I have is like a slurry mess. diluting it with water to see if nitrocellulose will precipitate
what I'm trying to do here is get away from the need for both sulfuric acid and nitric acid. first attempt was just NaHSO4 + NaNO3 in water, which was perhaps too optimistic. second attempt is concentrated H2SO4 with a bit of water + NaNO3 in it. might do a third attempt with more dilute H2SO4 and more NaNO3 because it seems the latter won't dissolve in conc. acid

 No.9531

File: 1643199992887.jpg (407.57 KB, 1200x833, wow such yield.jpg)

>>9508
alright the second batch had a pathetic yield that burns even worse than the cotton does. I think I just turned most of it into sugar ála this NileRed video: https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=vHuFizITMdA
my H2SO4 is ~80%, and it was in great excess
pic related is the final product. 0.28 g of crystalline something from 1 g cotton, 5 g NaNO3, 5.5 g H2O and 34.5 g H2SO4

 No.9532

>>9531
What are you expecting it is?
I've only done acid base extraction of DMT, and butane extractions of THC. Getting safe-ish chemicals where I used to live was hard and basically had to get extremely pure and expensive materials.

I also don't have the experience to handle NaOH, nor do I feel comfortable doing safe to smoke extractions with HCl acid. Instead I used lime (Ca(OH)2) and vinegar, both very food safe and safe to handle too.

DMT is a wonderfully fun drug and really easy to extract and purify. I ended up doing a vape pen with which I could have mild trips with more regularity. Very fun, very recommended.

 No.9533

>>9532
>What are you expecting it is?
longer sugars that don't dissolve in water as well as sucrose and glucose
>I also don't have the experience to handle NaOH, nor do I feel comfortable doing safe to smoke extractions with HCl acid. Instead I used lime (Ca(OH)2) and vinegar, both very food safe and safe to handle too.
NaOH isn't so bad to handle if it's room temperature and a not fully saturated solutions. NileRed has a video on this I think. the fat on your fingertips just turn to soap. at least at the concentrations used for soapmaking. I tried! not that you want to stick your hand in or anything, but you don't need to be overly paranoid with it. KOH on the other hand..
vinegar (acetic acid) and lime should give you calcium acetate as a byproduct. nice and safe. using HCl instead of acetic acid should give you CaCl2, also nice and safe. basic PPE should be enough really. coat, gloves, goggles. a bit of sodium bicarbonate solution nearby
>DMT is a wonderfully fun drug and really easy to extract and purify. I ended up doing a vape pen with which I could have mild trips with more regularity. Very fun, very recommended.
I keep away from psychoactive stuff besides alcohol these days. I used to smoke weed but it made my depression worse. these days I'm not even on SSRIs. it's pretty good and I don't want to mess it up

 No.10090

NEW EXTRACTIONS&IRE
>We set out to improve every aspect of the UV photoreactor, which is proving a pain in our journey to cubane from the hardware store. But will it be enough?

 No.11296

Are there any sources (books, websites) that teach a more "street" kind of chemistry, if you catch my drift. Not all of us will have access to pure substances of any kind, so it would be interesting to extract certain substances from household materials. What kind of substances doesn't matter, I'm just talking about doing something like that in general.

 No.11299

Does anyone know how to make acetic anhydride from uncontrolled precursors and limited resources without killing myself?

 No.11300

>>11296
You mean like how to make diy chemicals like precursors and solvents etc? Cool idea. I am interested as well.

 No.11337

>>11296
>>11300
erowid
>>11299
https://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Acetic_anhydride
>Many amateurs have attempted to make acetic anhydride at home due to its tremendous usefulness in organic chemistry. Only a few have succeeded, though a write-up of the preparation of acetic anhydride from sulfur, bromine, and anhydrous sodium acetate was reported by Magpie
https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15021
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/anhydrides.html
https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9
I tried making more concentrated acetic acid a while back, but distillation unfortunately only gets you so far. there's no azeotrope with water luckily but it has a high enough affinity to water that distillation is difficult

 No.11418

Can anyone familiar with chemistry explain to me how 4 mM hydrogen peroxide means we have a 30% concentration of it? Presumably, it's an aqueous solution. I'm a complete newbie and am just engaging with it for fun.

 No.11422

>>11418
are you sure it's 4 mM and not 4 M?
4 M = 4 mol/L = 136 g/L
30% H2O2 = 1110 g/L
136 / 1110 = 12.3%
136 / 1000 = 13.6%
this doesn't make any sense at all. 30% w/w H2O2 should be 333 g H2O2 or 9.8 mol/L = 9.8 M. where did you get the 4 from?

 No.11424

>>11422
It's about a paper discussing the degradation of lignin-like structures with lignin peroxidase, which utilized hydrogen peroxide to catalyze the process.

<Reagent for LiP assay included 250 mM sodium tartrate buffer pH 5.5, 10 mM VA, and 4 mM H2O2 (30%).


Yeah, I probably misunderstood what's it supposed to mean. Perhaps they mean there already is an aqueous hydrogen peroxide solution of 30% and that has a concentration of 4mM in the reagent?

 No.11425

>>11424
I suggest emailing the authors and asking. could just be that they add enough 30% H2O2 to make 4 mM in the solution

 No.11426

File: 1660240766769-0.jpg (359.24 KB, 2409x1931, EtAc.jpg)

here's the result of an experiment that I've had running for two months: making ethyl acetate
normally one uses pure ethanol, glacial acetic acid and sulfuric acid as a catalyst. I don't have either of those so I used 6 ml 40% ethanol (vodka), 4 ml 60% acetic acid (food grade) and 1 ml ~80% H2SO4. I also set up a batch using 1 ml 30% HCl instead of H2SO4
nothing much happened at first, even after leaving it in the oven at ~80°C for several hours. so I just let both batches sit for two months until today. the batch with H2SO4 has formed a thin layer which is hard to photograph, but the HCl batch has little droplets floating in it. the smell is noticeably different from AcOH, so I'm fairly sure esterification has occurred
pic related is the HCl batch
water interferes with the reaction which is why it's so slow. I suspect NaHSO4 can be substituted for H2SO4 which avoids adding water there, and ethanol is relatively easy to distill to higher concentration

 No.11427

>>5727
compost

 No.11851

I need to mix a small solution whose components will have small amounts. In the micrograms ballpark. Is there any sort of equipment with which I can precisely measure and mix a solution like that? Of course, I could use a scale and scoop the material with a spoon, but that's pretty crude.

 No.11874

File: 1665915621112.jpg (303.83 KB, 426x800, Single_channel_rack.jpg)


 No.11875

>>11874
Nice, that seems appropriate. Thank you.

 No.11976

How do you predict how two substances will react and what they will produce? Is there any way to deduce this? Or is chemistry some sort of big library of trial and error where you memorize what happens? Because the last one would be tedious as hell. Right now I'm trying to make a hydrogen peroxide solution more acidic, but I don't know how much it will compromise the hydrogen peroxide concentration itself, because the acid may react with it.

 No.12046

What do I use to measure mass in the micro range? Conventional scales don‘t seem appropriate, needless to say

 No.12047

File: 1669314559893.jpg (255.62 KB, 1280x720, exceptions.jpg)

>>11976
>How do you predict how two substances will react and what they will produce?
what substances did you have in mind?
>Or is chemistry some sort of big library of trial and error where you memorize what happens?
picrel
>Right now I'm trying to make a hydrogen peroxide solution more acidic, but I don't know how much it will compromise the hydrogen peroxide concentration itself, because the acid may react with it.
what acid?
>>12046
sometimes you can dissolve a known larger amount in a solution then take a suitable fraction of the solution

 No.12048

>>12047
> >How do you predict how two substances will react and what they will produce?
>what substances did you have in mind?
>>Or is chemistry some sort of big library of trial and error where you memorize what happens?
>picrel
Yeah nvm, I figured in the meantime that chemistry essentially is some sort of large library of known facts through experimentation where only category wise we can predict some things that are essentially already known. At least that‘s how I would put it.

>>Right now I'm trying to make a hydrogen peroxide solution more acidic, but I don't know how much it will compromise the hydrogen peroxide concentration itself, because the acid may react with it.

>what acid?
Phosphoric acid. But never mind, I already figured that one out. Both are weak acids, but phosphoric acid is much stronger and will be the main determinant of the resulting pH. Also it won‘t have a reaction with the hydrogen peroxide itself as far as I understand it.

>sometimes you can dissolve a known larger amount in a solution then take a suitable fraction of the solution

True, but the substance I bought was expensive as fuck and I only have small quantities of it. I‘m getting a proper scale for it and will increase the volume of the solution, although I wanted to avoid that.

 No.12049

>>12048
>Yeah nvm, I figured in the meantime that chemistry essentially is some sort of large library of known facts through experimentation where only category wise we can predict some things that are essentially already known. At least that‘s how I would put it.
chemistry is more or less "lies for children" all the way down. but often times those lies work well enough
>True, but the substance I bought was expensive as fuck and I only have small quantities of it. I‘m getting a proper scale for it and will increase the volume of the solution, although I wanted to avoid that.
you could try and make a coke line out of it then cut a piece of it by length
I have a scale with 10mg resolution. once you want to go more accurate than that prices quickly shoot up

 No.12050

>you could try and make a coke line out of it then cut a piece of it by length
I have a scale with 10mg resolution. once you want to go more accurate than that prices quickly shoot up
Yeah, I will have to blow some money for that

 No.12190

Is it futile trying to work out the density of something like an enzyme? I am concocting a watery solution with an enzyme. I know its concentration in molarity and also know the mass I need. I know the volume of all other relevant substances besides that of the (distilled) water, which would be the total volume minus the volume of all the other substances, which I know besides that of the enzyme, for which I initially thought I would use its density to figure that out. I can‘t find that value though. Perhaps you work with something else in case enzymes/proteins?

 No.12195

>>12190
Nevermind, already found my solution.

 No.12803

new E&F
>Lighting metal fires (and putting them out??)

 No.12834

>>11296
Do not try to put together a ghetto ass lab with shit that you bought off of Home Depot and a pharmacy
Do literally anything else with your time and money

 No.12850

new E&I
A slightly new cube plan… Cubane Ep 14
#cubane2023

 No.12852

>>12049
>I have a scale with 10mg resolution. once you want to go more accurate than that prices quickly shoot up
there is a fairly accurate model of scale you can buy cheap online known among the drug community: the Gemini 20 you can buy for something like 20 USD on amazon
idk if it will do 1mg but I have heard it's good for 10mg, some guy said in a review he compared it with a 0.001 lab scale for reference and said it was just as accurate. one issue with such a small weight is that shit like vibration of the work surface or even air currents will distort the measurement ez. for 1 milligram you want stuff like a barrier around the measurement surface afaik

anyways there is probably similar decent cheap scales you can buy cheap online that are available where you live. be sure to get something refundable incase it doesn't work up to your specifications and test first every time before use

 No.12853

>>12852
>idk if it will do 1mg but I have heard it's good for 10mg
anon they specifically said they wanted to measure better than 10 mg.

 No.12857

>>12853
*shrug* I mean many 10mg scales are not reliable for 10mg range measurements, the one I mentioned I think is particularly accurate for 10mg, bellow that you are talking lab scale, I would love t know where to get a cheap but reliable one as well, I guess business liquidation auctions or maybe some specific chinese sellers?
otherwise yeah I guess volumetric dosing. would dissolving in a volatile solvent for this purpose and evaping off after measurement work ok?

 No.12858

>>12857
dissolving, measuring and evaporating should work yes

 No.18352

Today I finally started my PhD position "officially" and also found out about this thread. Subhanallah.

 No.18353

>>18352
care to talk about what your PhD is about or would that be too revealing?

 No.18354

>>5724
I just saw someone on tiktok make estrogen. Looks super easy.

 No.18355

>>18354
What are you going to do with that estrogen?

 No.18357


 No.18358

>>18357
>Boobs Not Bombs
sensible chuckle
>how to produce estradiol
>1. buy estradiol
boo. at least make it from phytoestrogens extracted from soy or something

 No.18359

File: 1687514499278.png (654.08 KB, 537x579, Mare dryer..png)

>>18357
it'd be far more impressive to get it from the source: pregnant mare urine. that would also allow one to join the esteemed corps of piss chemists

 No.18371

>>18353
>or would that be too revealing?
I actually don't know lol. I can say it has to do with photo-induced bioorthogonal reactions and RNA sequencing. But most of the practical work I'll be doing is straight synthetic organic chemistry.

 No.18372

>>18371
>synthetic organic chemistry
may your lab days be tar free and your yields in the double digits

 No.18373

>>18355
Well I'm not trans but I thought it was pretty based.
>>18359
I'd be interested in ez synthesis of ketamine.

 No.18374

>>18373
>ez synthesis of ketamine
I don't know about the easy part but Erowid has the scoop as usual:
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/pcp/ketamine.html
this is the same process as described on Wikipedia, but with more detail
Erowid's Rhodium archive has even more drug chemistry:
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/

 No.18375

>>18372
inshallah thank you brother

 No.18377

new cubane

 No.18379

>>18377
>I lost the cubane race
F
>a bunch of tar just decides to yeet itself in the recrystallization
nice!

 No.19078

File: 1689355968226.jpg (28.33 KB, 596x767, ketamine ketaOURS.jpg)

(I heard about this thread a couple of weeks ago in a Ukraine thread I think and I put off coming here for no particularly discernible reason besides what I think is a ridiculous performance anxiety of sorts. Does anyone do the same thing, putting off or avoiding posting in a thread they are interested in out of a diffuse anxiety?)

So lads, here's the deal. For a few years now, I have been reading chemistry studies and reports from underground chemists, with the goal of designing as home-friendly as possible key steps to the synthesis of certain drugs, especially ketamine because of its antidepressant effect. I have compiled a frankly preposterous amount of data, and I thinbk I have several suggestion to make about multiple steps of synthesis of a variety of drugs. The problem is that I have no background in chemistry whatsoever. I'm an educated layman and I learned an awful lot about chemical theory in this endeavor, but I have zero practice and no knowledge of first principles, particularities and other things which a chemist would know almost intuitively. For all I know, a "brilliant" suggestion of mine is an immediate no-go because of some elementary (pun intentional) fact which is obvious to a chemist yet eludes me completely because no text ever mentions it, and no text ever mentions precisely because it's obvious to the chemists writing these texts in the first place.

In other words, I have an incredible amount of potentially great data but no "knowledge of the art", as is often said in patents. Not unlike, I guess, an AI trained on chemical reactions, I noticed patterns and I can think of possible paths forward, yet I have no idea of those paths are at all viable, or maybe they're not only viable but already known and even obsolete etc. I need people to connect these ideas I have to reality, to tell me why they're utter shit or why I might stumbled upon something. I suppose this is partly the point of underground chemistry forums, but participating a bare minimum practical knowledge, whereas I have zilch of that, and the people who frequent those places aren't there to tutor me after all. Are you a bad enough dude to do this?

 No.19079

>>19078
quoting myself just for a preemptive F in case I get banninated

 No.19858

>>19078
>makes blogpost
>doesn't even share his files
This fcking guy

 No.19867

>>9487
>How much did it cost to buy the equipment such as glass and etc needed to make soap, anon?

 No.19879

>>19078
what >>19858 said. spill the beans
also erowid has a lot of this already >>18374

 No.19882

>>19879
This, the rhodium archive has a crazy amount of information on it. (Some of it might be outdated though, as precursors get banned etc.)

 No.20099

>>18357
Guide written by the well-known Lena on making your own injectables: https://groups.io/g/MTFHRT/wiki/29602
Injectables are more economical to produce and efficiently metabolized than transdermal apparently
These are also good reads: https://transfemscience.org/articles/

 No.20104

>>18358
phytoestrogens are ineffective for hrt and are only feminizing in the heads of reactionaries
>>18359
no need since chinese industry just does it for you now
praise xi

 No.20105

>>20104
>phytoestrogens are ineffective for hrt and are only feminizing in the heads of reactionaries
hence the wording "make it from"
>no need since chinese industry just does it for you now
but what if I want it from natural mare pee?

 No.20155

File: 1691740424344-0.png (9.25 KB, 311x117, thrthrth.png)

File: 1691740424344-1.png (30.62 KB, 330x339, hrthrth.png)

(Posting performance anxiety strikes again! Nearly an entire fucking month without a followup, for no reason at all! This level of pointless anxiety isn't normal, is it? Well time to get over this retarded fear and let this rip. Sorry if this lacks enough editing. I'm also donning an e-mail and tripcode in case I ever want to use this for cred on chemistry forums.)

>>19858
>>19879
Alright then. I researched several alternatives for steps in multiple routes and wrote down my findings and speculations. It's a OneNote notebook which, if exported to MHT file, weights in at over 223 MB, but it's an ungodly mess of disorganization, incorrect terminology and suppositions gleaned from reading hundreds upon hundreds of studies and chemistry forum threads without having the chemical education to serve as basis.

When it comes to the all-important amine function of so many drugs, I have come to the conclusion that the most amateur friendly method seems to be reducing nitros and imines to amines using metallic zinc in acidic media. It doesn't requiring getting small alkylamines, nor fiddling with them in either the gas state nor having to free it from its salt form, you just reduce the nitro to an amine using something as simple as just Zn dust in AcOH under air (tho it should be kept in mind this releases H2), then condense it with methanal or ethanal or whatever and apply the same recipe again to get an alkylated amine, maybe in a one-pot fashion, and maybe even in a single step (I'll talk about this a bit more near the end). This is because Zn-H+ seems to be quite selective for reduction of multiple nitrogen functions, but not unactivated aldehydes nor ketones, nor other common troublesome things like unsaturations, dearomatizations etc. Further, by controlling simple factors like temperature and acidity, it seems possible to fine-tune this electivity further. Other metals like iron and aluminum might be viable under various conditions, but based on all the studies I have seen, zinc seems to be the most well-behaved.

In particular, I'm currently interested in applying it to this ketamine precursor, as per https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.orglett.7b00040 and a couple of associated patents, https://patents.google.com/patent/CN106478367B and https://patents.google.com/patent/CN109232521A. As far as I can see, it's surprisingly straightforward, requiring pretty much just zinc dust and acetic acid. In the study, they use pure AcOH, tho in the patents, they seem to use the same recipe but dilute the AcOH with isopropanol. As far as my research goes, the waste product, Zn(OAc)2, is nearly insoluble in pure AcOH and presumably in isoproanol as well, greatly facilitating workup: once the reaction is done, just filter it to get rid of virtually all the Zn(OAc)2 plus unreacted Zn, leaving you with the norketamine acetate in pure or isopropanolic AcOH. They extract the norketamine into EtOAc using aqueous NaHCO3 (enough to neutralize acetates), tho presumably, one could prescind from EtOAc and simply make the norketamine crash out of solution then filter it out, tho obviously this would make for a less pure product.

This video shows this exact reaction, tho sadly not the workup, of a subtance almost identical to the one in the pic: https://piped.video/watch?v=FROVCDzhbLs. Looking in the comments tho, he says he filtered and basified with aq. NaHCO3 as I as above. A couple of notes: he, like the study and patents above, used inert atmosphere, but apparently this isn't necessary judging by plenty of other examples; and the zinc doesn't need to be activated beforehand, tho at the cost of lower yield, as he comments under the video. Maybe pre-activating the zinc wouldn't be necessary, if a minuscule amount of HCl is added to the reaction, since apparently the higher acidity is all it takes to activate it?

In order to make this even more amateur-friendly, I wondered if simple vinegar could be used. After a lot of searching, I have found only one report of a similar reduction using zinc dust and vinegar, and it's applied to a benzylic imine rather than a benzylic nitro to reduce harmaline to tetrahydroharmine, as per pic 2: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29210 (related: https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/DMT-Nexus_Wiki:THH_Reduction). Still, given the reactivity profile of Zn-H+ reductions, I think that zinc dust and vinegar can affect the reation in pic 1. Apparently the formation of zinc oxide under these conditons is negligible. The one big difference from using pure or isopropanolic AcOH here is that the resulting Zn(OAc)2 is very water soluble, so you can't just filter it out. Still, this opens up a possibility of just neutralizing that Zn(OAc)2 using just NaHCO3, and the resulting ZnCO3 happens to be nearly insoluble in water. This is my chief question in this post for you. Picture the following. Apply the zinc dust and vinegar reduction to the nitro precursor of norketamine, then filter out the unreacted Zn, which should leave you with norketamine acetate and Zn(OAc)2 in aq. AcOH (assuming not all of the AcOH was consumed). Now, I assume that NaHCO3 would a) neutralize norketamine acetate, generating norketamine, NaOAc, CO2 and water, b) neutralize AcOH, generating NaOAc, CO2 and water, and c) undergo double displacement with Zn(OAc)2, yielding ZnCO3, NaOAc, CO2 and water. And here is where my lack of both chemistry education and practice comes in: can this double displacement reliably both get rid of the Zn(OAc)2 and make the ZnCO3 crash out? In a more abstract example, suppose that salts AB, CD and AD are all water-soluble but CB isn't; would simply mixing AB and CD in water make CB crash out?

The proposed route would be something like:
- reduce the nitro precursor of norketamine using zinc dust (activated or not) in vinegar under air
- filter out unreacted zinc dust
- add NaHCO3 to the solution (carefully since there's CO2 formation) to make ZnCO3 and norketamine freebase crash out, OR evaporate the solvents then dissolve the residue in just water so there's no AcOH to be neutralized and thus less CO2 formation
- it might be possible to make these two substances crash out separately, since ZnCO3 is insoluble in neutral water but soluble in dilute alkaline solution whereas norketamine, as is typical for alkaloids, should crash out at higher pH
- if it's not possible to make them crash out separately, filter out the cake consisted of these 2 substances then add them to neutral water or a lower alcohol; the norketamine freebase will dissolve but the ZnCO3 won't
- filter out the ZnCO3
- evaporate solvent to get norketamine freebase

Like I mentioned above, condensing norketamine with methanal (or some other small aldehyde or ketone) then applying the same protocol should work, and if one uses pure or isopropanlonic AcOH instead of vinegar, maybe the Zn(OAc)2 itself could be used as dehydrating agent for this condensation, so the two steps could be made one-pot. Going even further, I have found studies which do both things in one step simultaneously (tho in different substrates), by adding the aldehyde to the nitro before reducing it – tho results are debatable, in no small part because all but 2 of these studies are almost a century old and most are in Japanese, badly scanned and with worthless OCR, but I'll leave that to another post, in case there's interest.

How off-base (pun very intentional) am I?

 No.20156

>>19879
Yeah I'm familiar with those clandestine routes from these venerable old sites, but even those are still way too intimidating to someone without any practical experience like me – way too many steps, equipment and substances. So I aimed to find or imagine protocols as bare-bones and layman-friendly as humanly possible. Thus the reduction above, requiring just zinc dust, vinegar, chemical ferment, open vessels and a common stirrer.

 No.20161

>>20105
its pregnant mare urine you need, it would be an inhumane and unfulfilling job, the same as modern dairy farming. You'd have to get your piss horse impregnated, do something with the foal when it's born, repeat

 No.20221

pls respond
>>20155

at least to this bit here:
>In a more abstract example, suppose that salts AB, CD and AD are all water-soluble but CB isn't; would simply mixing AB and CD in water make CB crash out?

 No.20223

File: 1692701665617.gif (2.33 MB, 400x300, nodding mares.gif)

>>20221
>suppose that salts AB, CD and AD are all water-soluble but CB isn't; would simply mixing AB and CD in water make CB crash out?
probably, unless there's something preventing it like high temperature or unsuitable pH. see for example https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/General_Chemistry/General_Chemistry_Supplement_(Eames)/Chemical_Reactions_and_Interactions/Solubility_and_Precipitation
in fact precipitating by adding a second salt is a common way to purify certain salts and elements, especially precious metals. adding sodium metabisulfite to aqua regia with dissolved gold will cause elemental gold to precipitate rather than any salt. precipitating solver chloride is also a common thing, like getting rid of silver from gold
>>20161
>it would be an inhumane and unfulfilling job
never. a dedicated piss chemist would ensure the source of their piss is happy and well taken care of
>You'd have to get your piss horse impregnated
lewd

 No.20224

File: 1692703068196.gif (3.35 MB, 576x720, indian.gif)

>>20155
practical ways of making glacial AcOH would be useful for this, as it is a controlled substance I think. I can get 60% AcOH at a food wholesaler, but getting rid of the remaining water is not practical using distillation. maybe molecular sieves? would be slow..
where do you get the precursor?
>vid
based indian man shows how to do things yet again

 No.20975


 No.20977

Can anyone recommend me a good book for learning high-school level chemistry?

 No.20980

>>20977
Nivaldo Tro - Chemistry A Molecular Approach


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