Pre-Columbian general Anonymous 04-01-22 19:44:47 No. 9252 [Last 50 Posts]
ITT post information about the history and anthropology of the New World. A lot of new anthropological work has been done in this field in recent decades that has not yet entered public consciousness.
Anonymous 04-01-22 23:17:50 No. 9256
>>9254 >Any recs? 1491 is a good starting point
it's 2 hole continents and millennia of history though
>>9255 IDK don't think you need to harden copper for most uses. The main method was cold hammering since copper is comparatively malleable.
Anonymous 06-01-22 18:11:38 No. 9277
>>9264 Not aware if there is a legend or not. It was hard to find a map of both Americas that had more than a few cultures/ethnicities on it. This one was a WIP attempt by somebody to map pre-Columbian ethnic groups to help people write alternate history. They got banned from the community though so IDK if there was a more complete or labeled version.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/bronze-age-new-world-v2-0.222514/page-5 I didn't want to use it for the OP image until after looking for a while I realized that there just weren't (easy to find) good maps of all the Americas showing the people who lived there. So it's kind of representative of how overlooked the subject is. :-\
Anonymous 06-01-22 18:29:50 No. 9278
>>9277 >>9264 Actually now that I have found the source page and read through the thread, I see that it is in fact an alternate history map rather than a historical one. What a sad statement indeed. Most maps that have more than a handful of cultures, languages, etc are restricted to only one continent or region. It's difficult to find an all-inclusive map showing anything significant at all.
Here's 2 maps for North an South, but missing Central for instance.
The NA map is from wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Pre-Columbian_era The SA map is from a redditor who was annoyed that wikipedia only had NA in the above wikipedia article.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5nmpjq/distribution_of_language_families_in_precolumbian/ Anonymous 13-05-22 00:56:29 No. 10656
>>9253 Bumping this one
Of course, one of the principles of weapons difference between euros and americans was that the first had iron and the others not.
<Pic is not viracocha. Anonymous 31-05-22 02:22:13 No. 10840
Seeims like a compatriot has done already a video seriesnot subbed ruptures in the conquistadors about if executing the Inca or sending him to Spain, for and while a plot to liberate him by his generals by attacking is foiled, the Inca is trialed He was convicted of Treson, usurpation, tirany, regicide, fratricide, adultery, poligamy, incest and heresy He appeals to Pizarro, promising to give more gold or more royal hostages, he converts to avoid being burned (since having the body for mummification and reverance was a great part his religion), is given the name of Francisco and is killed by garrote vil while the priest recited a Psalm In the end there was no army nearby, so Pizarro is berated by his officer Hernando de Soto for not sending him to Spain to the court of Charles V Again, this instance of a inca king being murdered repeats with Tupac Amaru I, killed and when the vicerroy goes back to Spain the King of Spain berates him: "Go home, I sent you to Peru not to kill kings but to serve them". Pizarro doesn't have that end, nor going back by diying in the conquistadors civil war
Anonymous 01-07-22 00:43:52 No. 11145
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/lost-cities-of-the-amazon-discovered-from-the-air-180980142/ There was speculation that there was an old urban civilization in the Amazon Jungle, and now it's pretty much confirmed that it existed. Old Amazonian cities were recently found in the Beni Department of Northern Bolivia. Just like other Native civilizations such as the Mississippians, Andeans and Mesoamericans, these Amazonian cities had pyramids.
One thing this article doesn't mention though is that there is some evidence that this civilization continued to exist for some decades after Post-Columbian contact, and that it extended up to Northern Brazil. In the early 1500s, Venezuela was a private colony called Klein Venedig and it was owned by the Welsers, a German banking family. The last German governor of Klein Venedig, Philipp Von Hutten, went on a military expedition south into the Amazon Jungle in 1541. Hutten and his men encountered a Native American group called the Omaguas, who lived in Northern Brazil (see the 3rd pic), and he allegedly discovered that the Omaguas had a large, extravagant looking city. Hutten and his forces advanced towards the city, but Omagua warriors came out of the city to confront Hutten, and a battle ensued. Hutten's expedition was eventually forced to retreat, and Hutten himself was wounded in the battle. Hutten's claims about the Omaguas having an opulent city is chalked up by some historians as just an exaggeration and another example of European hysterics about trying finding El Dorado (which was common at the time). But with these pyramids and urban settlements being found in the Amazon, I think it's likely Hutten wasn't exaggerating and that he really did find a large city. Hutten also claimed that the Omagua city had a tall structure in the center, the structure was probably a pyramid.
https://www.landofsixpeoples.com/gyeldora.htm Anonymous 01-07-22 10:46:46 No. 11151
>>11150 The former, Inuit oral history. This guy named Henry Rink went to Greenland and wrote down and recorded a bunch of Inuit oral stories, some of which were about the Norse.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inu/tte/tte2-054.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inu/tte/tte2-055.htm Note that the term "Kavdlunait" means European, the term "Kaladlit" means Inuit and the term "Kivigtok" means hermit
Anonymous 04-07-22 20:10:34 No. 11182
https://www.science.org/content/article/it-wasnt-just-greece-archaeologists-find-early-democratic-societies-americas This is a good article about Tlaxcala's political system. In Mesoamerica there were different political systems, for instance the Aztec Empire was a monarchy and this is well known. What's not as well known is that one of their main enemies the Tlaxcaltecs had a republic, with it's own senate (see 2nd pic). Tlaxcala was also a confederacy made up of 4 different city states: Tizatlan, Quiahuiztlan, Ocotelolco and Tepeticpac, and all these city states had representatives in the senate. (The Aztec Empire was also technically a confederation between the city states Tenochtitlan, Tlacopan and Texcoco but in reality Tenochtitlan had de facto control over the other two). The Tlaxcaltec senate was made up of both nobles and commoners, and before someone could join the senate they had to go through a brutal initiation process where they suffered physical and verbal abuse. When Cortes first entered Tlaxcala, he compared the Tlaxcaltec political system to the Italian republics like Genoa and Venice.
Here's another good article, it goes into detail about the initial battle between the Tlaxcaltecs and Spaniards before they allied with each other:
https://www.historynet.com/cortes-won-mexico-losing/ Anonymous 04-07-22 20:16:36 No. 11184
>>11182 Have you read The Dawn of Everything?
>>>/dead/2734 It talks about different Amerindian tribes and how people just used to assume all of them were highly hierarchical with kings and shit despite the archaeological evidence suggesting otherwise.
Anonymous 31-08-22 03:57:14 No. 11579
>>11390 I was going to send you to hell anglos for not having a single video on the travels of Tupac Yupanqui to Oceania and the leyends of the King Tupa in some islands there.
But thankfully someone put them in his video.
And because since the text on screen isn't translated I will do something about it
0:48
<This skin and jaw from a horse was kept by a important inka, who lives today and gaved this report, and ratified by the rest who were present and called himself Urco Guaranga. I make instance on this, because those who know something of indians will se an extrange case and difficult to believe 1:22
<Miguel Cabello de Balboa, 1586 >More is true is affirmed from this valerous Inka they tell, that from this road stopped in the sea for the space and duration of a year, and they say that he discovered some islands whom they called Hagua Chumbi and Nina Chumbi, this islands are on the South Sea (…) <Martin de Murua,1590 >And he reached the islands called Hagua Chumbi and Nina Chumpi and he conquered them, and from there he brought to show his triumph, a people like blacks and a great ammount of gold and a brass chair. He brought horses skins and heads and bones, all to show it as it is custom (…) <Santa Cruz de Pachacuti, 1613 >And coming like that, goes to an island of the yungas, where there is motherpearl called churoymaman, and he finds it more ¿ominous? […] Again, the inkas were a more advanced culture than everyone else…but none were a iron civilization in this plot of land, so the wheel of history crushed them like it did to the ancient japanese, the egiptians and other cultures from the fertile crescent.
Anonymous 31-08-22 03:59:00 No. 11580
>>11579 (me)
>The treasures brought by Yupanqui were burned by Atahualpa's troops after he took Cusco and did a razzia on his rivals Another reason I'm glad he got strangled
Anonymous 21-11-22 12:54:50 No. 12043
>>12035 I'm just gonna start with Richard White's
The Middle Ground I guess.
Anonymous 21-09-23 21:54:43 No. 20553
The first battle between a Mesoamerican army and Spanish colonists actually happened in 1517, two years before Cortes invaded Mexico. A Spanish expedition was defeated by Chakan Putum, a Mayan city-state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1ndez_de_C%C3%B3rdoba_expedition The Mayan victory was commemorated by the Bolivian and Mexican governments in 2021
Anonymous 05-10-23 16:03:42 No. 20607
>>20561 >>20595 They couldn't develop it independently to combat cavalry because there were no horses in the Americas before contact. It's an adaptation in response to Spanish arriving. At most they could have come to the logical conclusion that you best oppose cavalry with long pointy sticks, but given the time span they probably copied it directly. It's possible that there were Spanish defectors who brought knowledge of anti-cavalry tactics since it was pretty common for European settlers to flip sides to escape from how shitty their own culture was. That's not just some Hollywood trope.
There is probably actual research on the topic though.
Anonymous 07-10-23 18:11:03 No. 20614
>>11145 >>20610 The sad thing about this is that it kind of makes perfect sense for there to be a large and well developed society in a place like that, given the level of biodiversity and the natural river highway, but the whole "El Dorado" thing kind of poisoned the well on the topic so trying to research it gets you laughed at. Ironically a lot of it is gaining traction now because capitalism is in there deforesting the land and stumbling upon things buried by the forest.
>>11189 This is the kind of thing that really raises questions about different ways technology can advance. The West didn't invent electroplating until ~1800.
Anonymous 14-01-24 00:21:32 No. 21392
>>21385 This is a bit sensationalist. The sites are in eastern Ecuador, near the Andes foothills and based around the Upano River that flows from there. Saying it's "in the Amazon" is really stretching it.
It's cool but I'm just mad at all the normalfags thinking it's some lost city deep in the jungle, when in reality it's a precursor to all the advanced cultures and civilizations that would develop in or near the Andes like the Muisca & Incas. Its discovery isn't unexpected or groundbreaking.
Anonymous 14-01-24 00:46:33 No. 21393
>>21392 >The sites are in eastern Ecuador, near the Andes foothills and based around the Upano River that flows from there. Saying it's "in the Amazon" is really stretching it. ???? The Upano river is part of the Amazon basin, which stretches across almost the entire continent, and it's part of the rainforest.
https://wwf.panda.org/discover/knowledge_hub/where_we_work/amazon/about_the_amazon/ It's both? The ruins were newly re-discovered, making it a lost city. And it most likely was an influencer/precursor to local cultures that thrived later on.
>Its discovery isn't unexpected or groundbreaking. From the article:
<“It’s a gold rush scenario, especially for the Americas and the Amazon,” as Christopher Fisher, an archaeologist at Colorado State University who has scanned sites in the Americas but was not involved in this research, tells Science News. “Scientists are demonstrating conclusively that there were a lot more people in these areas, and that they significantly modified the landscape. … This is a paradigm shift in our thinking about how extensively people occupied these areas.” <Previously, scientists assumed that ancient South Americans “lived nomadically or in tiny settlements in the Amazon,” writes BBC News, but researchers estimate the newly discovered cities housed a population “in the 10,000s if not 100,000s.” <In recent years, lidar has been a vital tool for discovering traces of ancient Amazonian cities. Aerial laser sensing bypasses the forest’s density—which complicates and lengthens mapping by expedition—to create more accurate maps in a fraction of the time. As Fisher told Smithsonian magazine’s Brian Handwerk in 2022, the technology has proved “transformative for archaeology.” It’s helped uncover pre-Hispanic settlements in the forests of Bolivia, Brazil and Belize. Seems pretty evident that this booming area of study is majorly changing how we understand the history of the place…
Anonymous 14-01-24 01:16:29 No. 21394
>>21393 Yes the Upano river is part of the basin, but the cities were found very close to its origin near the Andes where the terrain itself isn't jungle-y.
If you can describe this material culture as "Amazonian", then I guess the Incas would also be so, as important cities like Cusco were also close to its rivers (seen on your map).
>It's both? Keywords "deep in the jungle". Not denying that they were large urban spaces.
Anonymous 29-01-24 00:44:45 No. 21531
>>21394 >Keywords "deep in the jungle". Not denying that they were large urban spaces. I think they mean it's in a location with heavy jungle, not that it's near the geographical middle of the Amazon…
>>21530 Hard to build pyramids in the mountains. Inca sites are concentrated in very mountainous areas. Moche and Nazca are in relatively flat spots.
Anonymous 03-03-24 23:59:46 No. 21661
Sharing this collaborative thread (you need to make an account to view it) about Aegon and his islands being transported into Mesoamerica in 1390:
>What is known is that on the first of January, in the year 1390 AD of the Gregorian Calendar, three islands would appear to the northwest of the Yucatan Peninsula. That the inhabitants of the islands, from their rulers to the lowest peasant, saw the sky shimmer and ripple with a strange, otherworldly light. Those who lived on the coast closest to where the event occurred likewise saw strange lights on the horizon, but lacked the means to investigate. >Among the members of the ruling family, the Cocoms, and their nobility, the message was a clear one. These strange new visitors were not like any they had seen before, in more ways then one. And it would be wise not to anger them, for even one of these great beasts they rode upon could likely bring the fury of the heavens to an entire city. >The trio and their dragons landed outside the city, and it did not take long for a grand procession to exit the city to seek audience with these strangers. It is here that the first bit of miscommunication would come into play, and show that the Targaryens efforts at translation could still use much work. A great offering of sacrifices was brought forward, as a means to both appease and show reverence to those who were clearly touched by the gods if nothing else. >This however, took the Targaryens by surprise, and after a moment, prompted an argument that had the procession grow remarkably confused and even fearful, for as the three argued, the great dragons they had ridden seemed to grow restless and agitated as well. >The locals were not the only ones worried about this, as historical details speak of the way the translators who had accompanied them worked feverishly to try and calm the situation while seeking to enlighten the rulers of the great city. It seemed that the visitors had not realized that the local peoples engaged in human sacrifice, and were divided on their opinions of it. One seemed to have no problem with it at all (and is believed to have been fine with letting the dragons eat the sacrifices outright), another seemed to find the idea abhorrent to a degree, and the one who rode the great black beast is said to have been somewhere in the middle. >The situation would be resolved by the one calling himself Aegon, who urged the locals to carry on with their own rites and traditions as was their custom. Thus the sacrifices were killed, their blood an offering, and from there a great feast and tour was held. The the Targaryens would remain for a full week with their dragons, making efforts to learn as much as they could and fill in the many gaps in their knowledge. It was only before they departed that Aegon would request the submission of the League to him and his family. It was given without delay, though this would not be without consequences or challenge for some of the other members of the league as time went on, for already there were clear lines forming within the League and some would take offense and grow envious when they did not receive a visit in kind. (See the Mayan Insurrection, 1395-1396 for more details) https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/collaborative-empire-of-the-sun-a-targaryen-mesoamerica.551006/ Anonymous 29-03-24 02:22:07 No. 21814
New evidence of contact between South America and Pacific islands over 1000 years ago.
<One thousand years ago, the first settlers of Rapa Nui — also known as Easter Island — feasted on a fusion cuisine of plants native to Polynesia but also ones indigenous to South America, around 2,300 miles (3,700 kilometers) away, a new study finds. <Researchers discovered the food remnants by identifying starch grains clinging to obsidian blades at the archaeological site of Anakena, the earliest known settlement on Rapa Nui, which was occupied from about A.D. 1000 to 1300, according to the study, published Wednesday (March 20) in the journal PLOS One. The finding suggests that the early Polynesians had regular contact with the people of South America as far back as a millennium ago. https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/obsidian-blades-with-food-traces-reveal-1st-settlers-of-rapa-nui-had-regular-contact-with-south-americans-1000-years-ago Anonymous 02-04-24 17:33:38 No. 21837
>>21836 please don't go off the rails with this stuff and keep it to things that are substantiated. there's a Hancock thread for more open speculation about the topic
>>>/hobby/36674 >Two attempts to replicate Balabanova's findings of cocaine failed, suggesting "that either Balabanova and her associates are misinterpreting their results or that the samples of mummies tested by them have been mysteriously exposed to cocaine". >a study in the journal Antiquity suggested that reports of both tobacco and cocaine in mummies "ignored their post-excavation histories" and pointed out that the mummy of Ramesses II had been moved five times between 1883 and 1975. It's a very interesting line of evidence and while this seems like a pretty implausible explanation, there isn't as significant a body of evidence or an assurance of the evidence's legitimacy as seen here
>>21814 However, the evidence of contact between South America and Rapa Nui does lend a lot of credence to the possibility of contact elsewhere and suggests more research should be done in that direction.
Anonymous 27-01-25 03:59:20 No. 23462
>>10656 who is it on the shield then?
>>10668 has there ever been any genetic proof of japanese arriving in the northwest?
>>21819 >We already had DNA evidence pointing in this direction (although it also could have indicated migration along the coasts from polynesians who reached north america first). are you referencing those native tribes in brazil and ecuador? their connection is to melanesians not polynesians.
Anonymous 27-01-25 04:18:34 No. 23465
==Native American gene flow into Polynesia
predating Easter Island settlement==
The possibility of voyaging contact between prehistoric Polynesian and Native American populations has long intrigued researchers. Proponents have pointed to the existence of New World crops, such as the sweet potato and bottle gourd, in the Polynesian archaeological record, but nowhere else outside the pre-Columbian Americas, while critics have argued that these botanical dispersals need not have been human mediated. The Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl controversially suggested that prehistoric South American populations had an important role in the settlement of east Polynesia and particularly of Easter Island (Rapa Nui). Several limited molecular genetic studies have reached opposing conclusions, and the possibility continues to be as hotly contested today as it was when first suggested. Here we analyse genome-wide variation in individuals from islands across Polynesia for signs of Native American admixture, analysing 807 individuals from 17 island populations and 15 Pacific coast Native American groups. We find conclusive evidence for prehistoric contact of Polynesian individuals with Native American individuals (around ad 1200) contemporaneous with the settlement of remote Oceania 13–15 . Our analyses suggest strongly that a single contact event occurred in eastern Polynesia, before the settlement of Rapa Nui, between Polynesian individuals and a Native American group most closely related to the indigenous inhabitants of present-day Colombia.
https://sci-hub.se/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2487-2 Some years ago there were opposite results on two aDNA studies looking at pre-Hispanic individuals from Rapa Nui but this study seems to have tipped the scale.
Anonymous 27-01-25 04:32:56 No. 23466
>>23465 why does title formatting not work here
anyway don't you guys think it would be crazy and amazing if a group of native americans had been blown off course and ended up in the marquesas (now in french polynesia) and set up a little outpost of civilization there.
so many images and ideas spring up to my head. how many people were there? what was first contact like? what did they feel seeing other people for the first time in perhaps years or months after having arrived at the marquesas and being all alone? and for these people to be from a completely different culture.
it makes me wonder what if polynesians had never embarked on their voyages and these people that arrived in the marquesas from south america established a successful society and colonized the ocean instead.
and the melancholy they must've felt knowing they could never go back home and see their families again.
Anonymous 27-01-25 04:57:03 No. 23471
>>23468 Thanks
>>23469 These pre-Classic murals definitely feel different from Classic and Post-Classic painting, though.
>two classic (and probably most famous examples) of maya mural painting from bonampak >watercolor reproductions by adela breton of murals that used to decorate the jaguar temple of the post-classic city of chichen itza (these specific murals have unfortunately disappeared since then) Anonymous 02-02-25 23:11:54 No. 23503
Sprawling Lost City From 600 Years Ago Revealed An archaeologist has revealed a sprawling, lost 15th-century city in southern Mexico at a site that was long thought to have been merely a garrison for soldiers.
Guiengola, which was built by the indigenous Zapotec people, is located in the south of the state of Oaxaca, some 17 miles from the pacific coastline.
Pedro Guillermo Ramón Celis of McGill University in Montreal, Canada revealed the true extent of forest-covered Guiengola using a laser-based scanning technique, flying over the site in an airplane. His study has revealed that the fortified city covers a whopping 360 hectares and sported more than 1,100 structures—including temples, ball courts and different neighborhoods for the commoners and the elite—and 2.5 miles of walls.
According to Ramón Celis, evidence suggests that the fortified city was abandoned just before the Spanish arrived in Mexico—with its residents relocating to nearby Tehuantepec, a small city where their descendants still live.
By the end of the 15th century, Ramón Celis told Newsweek, the Zapotecs had managed to both gain almost total control of Oaxaca's Pacific Coat, and had resisted the aggressive Late Postclassic expansion of the Mexicas (the Aztec Empire).
"This was especially remarkable following a lengthy, seven-month siege, led by Aztec emperor Ahuizotl, at Guiengola," he noted.
"After securing this region of southern Mesoamerica, the Zapotecs no longer needed to inhabit this city.
"While living in a mountainous area had its advantages, access to running water and more fertile land were likely more important for a large population, and the site of Tehuantepec had this advantage over Guiengola."
This is only the start of the analysis—with the archaeologist hoping that future studies of Guiengola will provide fresh insights in the Zapotecs' social and political organization, which may shine a light on their relationship with the Spanish.
"Currently, I'm planning my fourth field season, during which my team and I will cover all the approximately 1,170 structures in the LiDAR scan, which will take us a few years," Ramón Celis said, stressing that this work will involve further remote sensing, rather than physical excavations of the site.
https://www.newsweek.com/lost-city-mexico-guiengola-zapotec-forest-lidar-archaeology-2023494 Anonymous 16-03-25 18:45:33 No. 23936
>>23935 I know the feeling, anon. Spent a lot of time last month on a Mesoamerican art deep dive and it was frustrating when I couldn't find more info on the objects I found (doubly so when it was on some foreign museum
(Like seriously, monkey? You stole this and you can't even be bothered to investigate what it represents or where it comes from?) ).
But you can ask me about any objects you are curious about in the pic, I know the name of most of them and where they are located or if you want the full res pic of the object.
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