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File: 1671486255145.webm (621.55 KB, 1024x752, Crying Indian.webm)

 No.31570

99% of the time someone complains about it, it's literally just something like
>the movie depicts settler colonials exterminating wildlife and utterly ravaging the land
>the indigenous people aren't doing that
Favorably contrasting indigenous people with settlers or criticizing colonials' genocidal and ecocidal rampage is not "noble savage." People who say this are just coping about their culture being (rightfully) criticized as specifically and uniquely destructive in a particular historical context. No, the fact that indigenous people hunted bison and made war on each other is not equivalent to wholesale extermination of people and wildlife on the continent (for example). Depicting these people groups as something other that bloodthirsty orcs is not "noble savage." The destructiveness of colonizers is a matter of historical fact, and lamenting the loss of life and cultures that didn't maximize environmental destruction is not inherently fetishizing or romanticizing those people, any more than lamenting the holocaust is inherently fetishizing or romanticizing Jews.

This is not to say that the "noble savage" trope doesn't exist, because it does. Nor is it to say it's not problematic, because it is. It is to say, however, that the "noble savage" as a talking point has primarily served not to critique actual examples of it, but to reinforce colonial stereotypes of indigenous people as barbarous primitives. We shouldn't get rid of the noble savage critique, just constrain it to places where it actually applies - treating indigenous people as in a harmonious state of nature or somehow magically in tune with the environment in a way that others never could be. And at the same time the bulk of the critique should be refocused on the "savage savage" trope, which is the original stereotype and remains the far more prominent, continuing to serve as ideological justification for colonial conquest that is at least as bad as holocaust denial, not least of which because colonial oppression of indigenous people continues to this day the world over.

Discuss.

 No.31606

File: 1671665311627-1.jpg (392.11 KB, 1053x1200, Trinity.jpg)

I've seen people try to criticize the Avatar movies for supposedly engaging in the "noble savage" trope, but the Na'vi both aren't supposed to be any real world indigenous group, but a race of aliens from a different solar system, and are really so far removed from humanity they come across more as sci-fi Wood Elves (or your local equivalent) from a fantasy setting.

 No.31607

>>31606
>the Na'vi both aren't supposed to be any real world indigenous group

my uygha, the allusion is not exactly subtle

 No.31608

>>31607
They borrow aesthetics from various indigenous groups, but they aren't a direct representation of any of them. Not even an idealized one. The closest is the teal water Na'vi adhering to the whole native Hawaiian "Aloha" pacifism thing, but that's where it ends. What's more, the whole "noble savage" thing usually promotes the idea that the main thing distinguishing the "noble savages" is their lifestyle and culture. If you or I were kidnapped as a child and raised in a noble savage tribe, we would be come like them with their manly virtues or closeness and respect for nature or whatever good qualities is being attributed to them that civilization supposedly lacks because of decadence, luxury, artifice, pollution and whatnot. The primary thing making the Na'vi the way they are is their biology. It doesn't matter how in-tune with nature a human is, they will never commune with Eywa, they will never bond with or ride any of Pandora's animals, and so on. This isn't the difference between "civilized man" and the "noble savage", this is human adventurers blundering into the sacred, enchanted forest of the elves, if said sacred, enchanted forest was the size of a planet.

 No.31609

>>31608
>What's more, the whole "noble savage" thing usually promotes the idea that the main thing distinguishing the "noble savages" is their lifestyle and culture. If you or I were kidnapped as a child and raised in a noble savage tribe, we would be come like them with their manly virtues or closeness and respect for nature or whatever good qualities is being attributed to them that civilization supposedly lacks because of decadence, luxury, artifice, pollution and whatnot.
It's worth noting that the origin of this as a meme is the fact that it happened many times, with already grown adult settlers "going native" because they liked the indigenous society more. Also worth noting is that while there were lots of people who left European settler society for the indigenous peoples there were relatively very few who went the other way, including people who grew up in European cultures originally. This probably has less to do with the "nobility" of these indigenous cultures and more to do with the problems of European civilization and in particular the difficulty the settlers had in adapting to unfamiliar lands.

 No.31613

>>31608
>They borrow aesthetics from various indigenous groups, but they aren't a direct representation of any of them.

So? They obviously are a representation of them even if it's not a specific group, I don't see how that makes it better.

 No.31614

File: 1671725398096.png (33.64 KB, 735x318, ClipboardImage.png)

>>31608
>>31613
Cameron has said that after Avatar came out he was contacted by leaders of various indigenous groups who felt the movie spoke to their struggles with neocolonialism, and he took that into consideration with the writing for the sequels. He also seems to think that the noble savage criticism of Avatar 1 at least has some merit because the third movie is supposed to include a group of navi who are assholes. 2 already moves away from that kind of characterization though because the plot involves the water tribe being somewhat blind to the effects the humans are having on the ocean and having taboos/superstitions that cause unnecessary conflict.

 No.31638

File: 1671997242615.png (211.45 KB, 720x886, ClipboardImage.png)

Does picrel count as self Noble Savage-ization, The whole "white people brought homophobia and transphobia!!!" thing seems mostly to be coping mechanism for non-white wokies, especially on twitter kek. Trying to blame their country's bigotry on the evil white colonizers

 No.31643

>>31638
Nah that's just the average Han ultranationalist

 No.31662

File: 1672098380777.png (86.89 KB, 336x188, ClipboardImage.png)

>>31638
Yes and no. Europeans definitely brought a specific version of homophobia based on Christianity that wasn't there before. They have been doing this in a lot of the world, currently doing it a lot in Africa. The famous "why are you gae?" meme is from an interview that includes a Christian pastor spouting homophobic memes that you would find at home in a western evangelical church.

But to talk about China, there is a history there of having eunuchs function as a particular social class within the political system and of course the standard expectation of people to reproduce (although that's more pro-natalist than homophobic per se), but China also has its own version of homophobia and attitudes toward LGBT people if you look up what LGBT Chinese people have to say about it.

It's worth noting that western homophobia as it exists now is a relatively recent phenomenon. There were laws and such but the hysteria is a product mainly of 20th century propaganda associating gays with pedos and commies. Prior to that you had repression and disgust like is quoted in the pic, but it wasn't quite an object of culture war fascination in the way it became more recently.

 No.31895

>>31606
>Na'vi both aren't supposed to be any real world indigenous group, but a race of aliens from a different solar system
Their society is literally the romanticized concept of Native American harmony n' peace. They're sentient beings and have clans, warrior-hunters etc. so they're not alien anprim hippies. The human actions against them are clearly imperialist, but sugar-coating them is just stupid.
>Wood Elves
Except elves are semi-divine beings in many depictions, because their concept comes from the myths of nature spirits, not aliens that evolved into being.

 No.31896

>>31638
It's liberal brainworms. Same applies to India (pic rel - had to split the pic because image is over file limit). The claim that "evul huitey created homophobia" is lazy idpol.

 No.31904

>>31895
>Except elves are semi-divine beings
The Na'vi are the servants and favored children of a physical god.

 No.31906

>>31570
So basically the 'that's noble savage trope' discourse is used as a way to elide actual discussion on societies outside the west in favour of righteousness, and in many cases it actually feeds in to a savage savage trope'?

 No.31907

>>31570
There's a bit in the new Graver /Wengrow book about how noble savage argument was originally a right anti primitivist strawmen before morphing into a left wing one

 No.31910

>>31608
>You will NEVER commune with Eywa
>You will NEVER bond with Pandora's animals
ywnban

 No.31914

>>31906
>>31907
Yeah basically.
Noble savage is a real trope sometimes but the criticism of it is often overstated by people who think humanizing indigenous people is making them more "noble" than they are/were.

>>31910
Dude just do mushrooms in the forest.
There was even a deleted scene from the first movie that's obviously an alien version of an Ayahuasca trip.

 No.31924

>>31904
In other terms; Indian 'Nature spirituality' but scifi.

 No.31930

>>31924
No, not really. Native Americans didn't have animals that were their friends. I don't believe the tribes in what is now the United States and Canada even had your typical domesticated animals. They just had what is, at the end of the day, a relatively typical animist religion likely sharing the same roots as Siberian shamanism.

What's more, don't have many aspects of North American indigenous religion. No ritual smoking, spiritual or ritual dances and so on.

They take on many indigenous aesthetics, but they come across as something entirely inhuman. They're something more akin to wood elves from a fantasy setting.

 No.31931

>>31930
I never realised until now that the natives didn't even have horses until the westerners showed up

 No.31934

>>31931
They had dogs tho. Everyone had dogs.
Funny thing about horses though, they originally evolved in the Americas but died off there IIRC before any humans showed up. The famous Plains Indians and their horse culture was already a product of contact with Europeans. Prior to that those lands were populated by peoples of very different cultures.

 No.31940

>>31930
>Native Americans didn't have animals that were their friends
The fuck they didn't.
https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/domesticated-animals-by-early-virginia-indians-uses-of/
https://soar.wichita.edu/bitstream/handle/10057/1824/LAJ%2021_p42-54.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
>Dogs were Native American's first domesticated animal thousands of years before the arrival of the European horse. It is estimated that there were more than 300,000 domesticated dogs in America when the first European explorers arrived
>a relatively typical animist religion likely sharing the same roots as Siberian shamanism.
Sure, the Navi have the same shit but slapped on pseudo-scifi animal 'allies' that they link to using their fiber-optic tails.
>No ritual smoking, spiritual or ritual dances
That only applies to some tribes IRL. And they have spiritual chants and reverences for the 'mother tree'.
>they come across as something entirely inhuman. They're something more akin to wood elves from a fantasy setting.

 No.31947

>>31570
Based asf OP
Most people whining about the “noble savage trope” are literally pasty cackoids criticizing a film for acting like the natives weren’t inherently inferior and enraged that a white would side with the indigenous over his fellow whites

This is actually most evident in the discourse surrounding Avatar where whitoids go fully mask off and whine about how the military didn’t nuke and systematically exterminate the Navi and how Jake is a “race traitor”

 No.31948

>>31607
It’s not subtle to you because it’s self-evident what the Americans in the film are up to
>>31895
Idk if I would write the Navi off this way, their home planet is explicitly different from Earth, whereas life on Earth is connected through our relationships to each other, life on Pandora is connected in this fashion but also by the biological ability to connect their nervous systems, and thus their thoughts and emotions directly. The culture of the Navi isn’t only similar to contemporary indigenous cultures, it is similar to how ALL human societies started out, even the one of you Europeans, before your people rejected the notion that life had value and nature is more than a tool to exploit. The Navi can’t lose their connection to their world the way humans did because of their ability to directly interface with it.

 No.31949

>>31570
Maybe people overcritizing the "Noble Savage" trope is them coping with the obvious advantage of living under a classless society.

 No.31950

>>31930
>they come across as something entirely inhuman. They're something more akin to wood elves from a fantasy setting.

and what do you think they are an allusion to???

 No.31952

File: 1673200911532.png (325.82 KB, 479x383, ClipboardImage.png)

>>31950
NTA but myths about elves and other creatures long predate European colonialism in the age of sail. Which actually raises the point that a lot of the tropes about spirituality and connection with nature weren't originally generated by contact with a new people group, but were a process of synthesizing existing European myths with this new contact. Europeans already had a romanticized or mythologized view of nature (probably a reflection of the separation from it being created in their society) that they brought with them. Upon seeing peoples who did not create such a distinct separation, these peoples fit into an already existing ideology about the distinction between society and nature and a template for human-like but not human magical creatures. A large part of the mystique of Americans for the early European explorers and settlers was the seeming contradiction of a society that was not seeking to "master" nature and bend it to submission under the yoke and plow, totally reshaping it to suit their class society. The mythologizing of the Americans was an attempt to reconcile this seeming contradiction, and were a reflection of the Europeans' assumption that such a society wasn't possible.

One of the directions this took was "actually they're not a real society because they don't cut down the forests to make farmland. They need to be civilized or killed." Which among other things is partly what this anon says >>31949 i.e. coping.

Another direction this took was "if these people can resolve the contradiction between human society and nature, maybe their society is better than ours or at least we could learn something from them."

Part of the motivation for the wars and exterminations was certainly that American societies raised a lot of difficult questions about European societies by contrast. This is of course a threat to the ruling class and the kneejerk response to destroy these people also created an opportunity to acquire vast quantities of resources, so it's hardly surprising that this was the direction they went. This is, after all, a culture that had already spent centuries burning heretics, Christianizing Europe, and otherwise supplanting the "indigenous" European cultures alien to Rome and a post-Roman Christendom, like the Goths or the Picts.

>>31940
There were other rituals and so on that wound up as deleted scenes for time reasons. Some of them are more obviously inspired by IRL practices. IDK about smoking but it does include ingesting hallucinogenic drugs in a fashion very similar to an ayahuasca ceremony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud-0j4sU7Bs

>>31947
I struggle to think of an example from popular media where indigenous people are portrayed as purely good while settlers are portrayed as purely evil, in a reversal of the tradition. There are plenty of examples of the opposite - injuns as mindless savages - even some recent ones. At most you usually get "wow it sucks that the genocides happened but what are you gonna do?" and usualy have some token white people who are sympathetic or helpful. It's not, like, portraying these people as uniquely important or better than human. It rarely even rises to the level of seriousness and mourning that you see given to the holocaust or other genocides. Films about e.g. the Rwandan genocide or crimes of Imperial Japan tend to frame the events as an unspeakable atrocity, so it's not even just "it only counts if white people died." There's something about the protracted genocide of indigenous Americans that the west (mainly the US and Canada) tries very hard to repress. Probably the fact that as a process it took centuries and became deeply ingrained into the culture as a necessary foundation for its present existence. So yeah of course any humanizing of these people is going to be met with a dismissal by whatever excuse is acceptable at the time.

 No.31988

based. Nothing more I could say, you put it better than I could possibly have.
>People who say this are just coping about their culture being (rightfully) criticized as specifically and uniquely destructive in a particular historical context
>>31947
>Most people whining about the “noble savage trope” are literally pasty crackoids criticizing a film for acting like the natives weren’t inherently inferior
Yeah I agree with both of you especially on this. There's a very strong classist element to it too when I've seen this reaction from people in my region (not in the US).
<stop fetishizing poor people (mostly indigenous or mixed), they can do bad things too!!11
It's not fetishizing or demonizing to say the truths which the whiter, upper class (and those who aspire to become like them) are not used to hearing, mostly that the effects of colonization have been so devastating that certain groups of people are still being oppressed to this day, and that the capitalist class actively works to oppress us all.

 No.36579

>>31952
>I struggle to think of an example from popular media where indigenous people are portrayed as purely good while settlers are portrayed as purely evil
Eh I've seen several in recent times. Prey for example does this shit where the native Americans are, at worst, just misogynistic, while the European hunters are all depicted as savage, fat, smelly killers that would use a human being as bait for a monster.

There's some others I can't think of in this moment because I'm tired as hell, but there's a good number of such films that depict Indians as the uncritical heroes. It's a mythology on the level of "muh honorable Japanese Samurai".

Hell a lot of movies in the 80s have native Americans as wise, quiet people from whom the white man learns a thing or two from. And I can think of a few films of that era, depicting cowboys massacring villages of their women and children, which is hardly a good presentation of "colonizers".


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