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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1707686933695.png (1.89 MB, 1399x787, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.1757979[Last 50 Posts]

https://www.marxist.com/imt-sweden-founds-revolutionary-communist-party.htm

>We form the party in opposition to the policies of the leadership of the entire Swedish labour movement.

>It is the Social Democrats who have been in government for most of the attacks of the last 30 years. Their policies are becoming increasingly indistinguishable from those of the right.
>The Left Party leadership has followed the Social Democrats to the right, in search of government posts and respect from bourgeois public opinion.

>Many people dream of going back to the large-scale improvements for workers of the post-war period, but this was an exception in the history of capitalism that will not be repeated. In fact, it is precisely the illusions of that period that underlie the state of the labour movement today.


>Whole generations of activists were educated in the idea of class collaboration – peaceful cooperation with the bourgeoisie, on the basis of ever-expanding capitalism. Socialism was postponed indefinitely: staying within the limits of what the bourgeoisie could tolerate. Since the boom turned into a crisis for capitalism, this has meant accepting, step by step, and in many cases implementing, the atacks of the bourgeoisie.


>At the same time, trade union leaders have come to see preserving the stability of capitalism as their main task. The message to workers is always the same: it doesn't pay to fight.


>The truth is that the previous period left its mark on the entire Swedish left. It is enough to open any issue of supposedly communist papers like Proletären, Internationalen or Offensiv to see the total lack of propaganda for the need for revolution and communism. They promote the only thing they think workers understand: struggle for minor improvements within the framework of capitalism. The ideas of communism are relegated (at best) to programmatic documents and study circles.


>The whole history of capitalism shows that the working class cannot take power without a revolutionary party on the basis of scientific socialism – Marxism. The immediate task of the Revolutionary Communist Party can therefore be summed up simply: to organise and train those who have already begun to draw communist conclusions today, in order to win those who will do so tomorrow.


>The possibilities are seen not least in the work of our communist international over the past year. Using a simple slogan – "Are you a communist? Get organised!" – we have rapidly doubled our forces in one country after another. In Sweden, we have grown by 50 percent since the summer alone.

>Now we are taking the next step: in countries like Britain and Canada, preparations are in full swing to form revolutionary communist parties. We are raising the banner of communism so high that every communist will see it. Together we are laying the foundations for rebuilding a genuine revolutionary communist international, the world party of socialist revolution.
>What we are undertaking is nothing less than the building of a party ready for its historic task: to lead the struggle of the working class to communism.

>We ask you directly: Are you a communist? You are not alone! Help us build the RKP and gather the new generation of communists under the banner of Marxism. Never has there been a more important task.

 No.1757989

Revolutionary! We read out books Revolutionarily!

 No.1758002

Alan woods for pm of sweden

 No.1758005

>>1757979
what do they do?

 No.1758008

>>1757979
good luck to them, hope they can achieve more than other european communists
how are things in sweden ? wasnt there a big strike against tesla recently ?

 No.1758009

>>1758005
They do not make gun caches for an armed revolution, that's what they do.
>Give me your vote and your money and the world will be gooder

 No.1758023

IMT finally abandoning entryism as a failed tactic and forming what will probably by default be the largest international communist party, hope for the best, might even join if they do anything interesting with it.

 No.1758079

cool, i hope they can do something to help the third world

 No.1758533

>>1757979
So Sweden has 3 different communist parties now all of them have 0,01% support?

 No.1758538

Another trot party! Yay!

Sorry to be so cynical, I hope they do well and wish them luck, but I have no expectations that it will be anything but another boomer book club.

 No.1758561

>>1757979
Trotskyite scum. Get ready for articles how USSR was le fascist and watch the right-wing use them as useful idiots to shit on actual communists.

AND THE WORLD KEEPS ON TURNIN'

 No.1758563


 No.1758773

File: 1707758178122.jpg (1.71 MB, 2988x5312, IMG_20240203_213653-2.jpg)

today I will remind them. also
>wäääh Prollen isn't sufficiently revolutionary
while on the surface this criticism may seem to hold some merit, Prollen as far as I can tell is designed to reach the kind of people K is actively organizing amongst, namely unionized workers. IMT on the other hand is active mostly among students and youths in general. there was recently a case where they recruited a 14yo that they managed to burn out in less than a year

 No.1758786

>>1758079
There are sections in the third world and growing nicely atm.
>>1758563
What capitalist country isn't thoughever?

 No.1758797

>>1758009
I dont give two shits about eurocommunists having weapon caches (old people have these because soviet connections) when absolutely nobody supports them except a dozen lifestylist larping as revolutionaries.

 No.1758802

>>1758008
the Tesla strike is ongoing. LO has been gun shy so far about taking out a substantial part of its membership in a big strike, which allows Tesla to adapt. I expect it will keep simmering
>>1758540
median age can't be much higher than 25
>>1758563
I find it funny that they're getting upset about a diplomat saying diplomatic things
>brutal exploitation
the rate of exploitation is actually surprisingly low in most African countries, oftentimes lower than most European countries
>It is true that China so far doesn't use its military power the same was that for example the US does, but that is only because they do not yet have the strength to do so.
I'd like to see RKP's crystal ball

 No.1758854

>>1758773
>active mostly among students and youths in general.
how long before a massive sex scandal surfaces? 1 year? 2?

 No.1758861

>>1758854
pretty sure there's already been sex scandals involving imt

 No.1758877

>>1758797
Well, they are not more communist than the liberals. They just have a different idea of how tax money should be used, plus maybe some societal bones to eat, but they don't question capitalism or the power structure.

 No.1758894


 No.1759088

>>1758563
Well that's just true.

 No.1759101

none of them look like they've worked a day in their life

 No.1759127

>>1759088
not according to any reasonable marxist analysis

 No.1759167

>>1759101
most of them are students (source: one of their branches is in my town and I recognize them in the picture) but I know they have members who have graduated and have jobs
the more senior members have what I like to call the "trot stare". it seems to be universal, I've seen it in videos of trots elsewhere in the world

 No.1759329

>>1759101
how does someone look like theyve worked a day in their life? it seems like you have a fetish for the working class and arent really a part of it

 No.1759330

>>1759101
the majority of the working class look like people you deem to be soyboys.

 No.1759451

File: 1707800957293.jpg (95.32 KB, 366x504, true working class 1.jpg)

>>1758894
There's still more:

https://shoah.org.uk/statement-of-five-comrades-on-their-departure-from-the-international-marxist-tendency/

https://cosmonautmag.com/2023/12/statement-on-the-events-in-canada/

There have been big sex scandals in the Canadian, British, Taiwanese and I think Swiss section of the IMT. I don't think I've ever seen accusations come out of the (presumably second largest) US section though, which is interesting. I think it's because the higher legal drinking age of 21 inadvertently keeps fraternization between older "leading cadres" and young fresher's fair recruits to a minimum.

>>1759330
>the majority of the working class look like people you deem to be soyboys.
Wrong. Ever notice how the workers shown in propaganda posters in Lenin's time are exclusively musclebound men in overalls swinging large hammers? It's obviously because those were the men who led the revolution. Ignore that fat fuck Bordiga on "theoretical preparation", the IMT (and nearly every communist political party) should disband themselves and reconstitute as left-themed bodybuilding clubs - no reading required, just deadlifting while blasting Red Army Choir. The revolutionary leadership has already uncovered the correct views on everything, to win the revolution they don't need wimpy theory nerds, they need strong men with hammers who will literally smash the rule of capital.

 No.1759472

>>1757979
So what's their take on the trans question❓

 No.1759475

>>1759451
>every communist political party) should disband themselves and reconstitute as left-themed bodybuilding clubs - no reading required, just deadlifting while blasting Red Army Choir. The revolutionary leadership has already uncovered the correct views on everything, to win the revolution they don't need wimpy theory nerds, they need strong men with hammers who will literally smash the rule of capital.
Kek

 No.1759476

>>1759451
within LARP, cringe

 No.1759484

>>1759472
from a quick search of their website they seem to be pro-trans. there's not a whole lot, basically just one article and one hour long video of a lecture/speech

 No.1759504

If you're ever wondering how successful a communist party is going to be, ask yourself who their main followers and base of support is.

If your answer is:
>Labor unions, urban and rural workers and the military
then its going somewhere

If you answer is:
>Students, academics, intelligentsia and bohemian subcultures surrounding the intelligentsia
then the party is going buttfuck nowhere.

 No.1759513

>>1758561
Yea man
If we all get in a circle and cum on a picture of Stalin a revolution will shit itself into existence any day now!

After all, Leftypol had surely brought us even a centimeter closer to socialism, right? Right???

 No.1759516

>>1759513
jag älskar dig sasukepostaren

 No.1759519

>>1759516
I have no clue what you wrote but something something Japan

 No.1759520

>>1759451
Why not be /fitlit/?

 No.1759525

>>1759476
intercringed

 No.1759527

>>1759484
Thanks. That's already too much. It shows they aren't serious about communism. Another westoid larp.

 No.1759529

>>1759519
"i love you sasuke poster"
>>1759527
lol

 No.1759547

>>1758894
<The organization has rebranded as simply holding “principled criticisms” of “liberal identity politics”, and now opportunistically attempts to recruit young activists mobilized by struggles against racism, colonialism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia, but the chauvinism at its core remains the same. I’ll let Alan Woods, the primary “theoretician” and international figurehead of the organization, speak for himself:
<<“A representative of the American SWP was in London and asked to meet us. […] I had my notebook and pen ready to take notes, but after a while I let my pen drop and just sat there aghast. He was a student and was supposed to be one of their “cadres”. But all he talked about was Black Nationalism, Women’s Lib, Gay Lib, Vietnam and Cuba. I thought to myself: all that is missing is Flower Power and the joys of marijuana and the picture would be complete. Once again, not a single word about the working class or the class struggle.”
Waow…

 No.1759564

>>1759547
>Sex Workers Party

 No.1759588

>>1759525
Within cringe, intercringed
When you march do they put you in the front
Intercringed

 No.1759589

>>1759167
Please describe this stare, anon.

 No.1759599

there already is a communist party
this is garbo sectarian shit

 No.1759620

>>1759589
it's hard to describe. think zeal combined with zero contact with reality. christians have it as well, like Ebba "Crazy Eyes" Busch

 No.1759622

>>1759451
no drinking at party events
no shitting where you eat
simple as
>>1759547
>Vietnam
>Cuba
>not a single word about the working class or the class struggle
lol

 No.1759623

>>1759167
>the "trot stare"
Detecting high meme potential. Requesting further elaboration.

 No.1759627

>>1759588
Intercringed.

Why don't you say that three times: Within cringe intercringed.

 No.1759629


 No.1759631

>>1757979
Trot cowards abandoned the word Communism because of their slavishness to the bourgeois and "socialism" was respectable
<Socialism in 1847 signified a bourgeois movement, communism a working-class movement. Socialism was, on the Continent at least, quite respectable, whereas communism was the very opposite. (Marx, Communist Manifesto)

Whilst the Marxist-Leninists weathered 30 years of American unipolar black reaction saying "Stalin and the Soviet Union were based".

Now that Marxism-Leninism and outright Stalinism are popular the trots move, like spineless jellyfish, to coopt the name of Communism - which isn't associated with the freakerzoid trots as they've avoided using "Communist" for 70 odd years - and turn Communism into an unpalatable freakshow whilst insisting China and Russia and Cuba are imperialist

 No.1759632

>>1759622
>no drinking at party events
drinking at events is the only good part of these trotskyist sects. imagine interacting with those people while sober

 No.1759640

File: 1707824265349.jpg (128.92 KB, 873x504, 7971753950990435.jpg)

>>1759451
>every communist political party) should disband themselves and reconstitute as left-themed bodybuilding clubs - no reading required, just deadlifting while blasting Red Army Choir.
this but unironically

 No.1759647

>>1759640
a sports division if you will
>>1759632
oh trust me I know they're only tolerable when not sober. which says a lot really. sometimes I visit their events, where they are prone to holding long speeches as if they're Lenin reborn. but at the same time it's bereft of substance, since they don't interact with actual proles, only students
the K:ers by comparison are far more down to earth

 No.1759654

>>1759640
miss these edgelords so much

 No.1759658

>>1759631
>Now that Marxism-Leninism and outright Stalinism are popular the trots move, like spineless jellyfish, to coopt the name of Communism - which isn't associated with the freakerzoid trots as they've avoided using "Communist" for 70 odd years
in Denmark they took all the labels.
marxist.dk - IMT
revolutionary socialists - IMT
are you a communist? - join IMT
their newspaper name? revolution - IMT again

https://revosoc.dk/bliv-organiseret/
https://marxist.dk
https://revosoc.dk/avisen (newspaper)

This is despite there being two/three active Marxist-Leninist communist parties.
http://kommunisterne.dk / http://kommunist.dk / https://dkp.dk (DKP) [danish communist party]
https://kommunister.dk/ (KP) [communist party]
https://apk2000.dk (APK) [communist workers party]

There used to be KPiD [communist party in denmark] but they dissolved in 2023 and joined KP.

IMT targets students and intellectuals, they do a lot of marxist talks and panels.

 No.1759667

>>1759631
>Withered
Nobody gives a fuck about ML internet nerds and LARPing micro-parties mare

 No.1759668

>>1759667
>the CPC and KPRF are LARPing micro-parties
But let me guess, setting fire to a trash can is real communism to you right?

 No.1759695

File: 1707829655404.jpg (1.21 MB, 2500x1667, chaz-seattle.jpg)

>>1759667
>Nobody gives a fuck about ML internet nerds and LARPing micro-parties mare

 No.1759697

>>1759667
what are you doinng, lol

 No.1759703

>>1759658
this makes the Swedish situation look better lol. we have:
K, formerly KFML(r). the most active party afaict, and ML
SKP, formerly KFML. Maoists I think
and now RKP, the Trots

 No.1759721

>>1759667
I'm not your mare, Agent Kochinski

 No.1759728

>>1759703
KP is the most active one, afaik. maybe I think that because I'm a member. DKP and KP are pretty much the same, but DKP is holding a grudge from a split in the 90s.

 No.1759738

File: 1707833577266.jpg (238.55 KB, 960x1200, demon trotsky 3.jpg)

>>1759631
>Trot cowards abandoned the word Communism because of their slavishness to the bourgeois and "socialism" was respectable
They did it for the exact opposite reason you ignorant fuck. In the late 1930s and 1940s when the Fourth International formed, "Communism" as practiced by the Communist Parties meant uncritical coalitions with liberals (popular frontism) and later on outright telling workers to sign "no-strike pledges" (so that class struggle couldn't interrupt Stalin's supply of military aid). "Communism" was therefore associated with selling out the working class for ministerial seats and Soviet foreign policy, so therefore the early Trots were justified in reclaiming "socialism" for their own more radical platform.

The two words have been swapped around in a similar way multiple times in the past: before that, "communism" was adopted by the Third International to distance themselves from the "socialists" who sold out the working class after 1914 for ministerial seats and foreign policy goals (huh, sounds familiar), and before that Engels was willing to call himself a "socialist" in order to distance himself from the terror tactics of anarchist "communism". That's actually the origin of your quote, by the way: it comes from Engels' 1888 preface to the Communist Manifesto and it's him explaining why he called himself a "communist" in 1847 when he represented Scientific Socialism then.

 No.1759740

File: 1707833977007.png (751 KB, 950x804, izzy sad.png)

>>1759721
Agent Kochinski wants to fuck w*men as a stallion though, not mares. maybe it's for the best

 No.1759743

>>1759738
>communists were communists the whole time
>trots kept rebranding themselves every decade in hopes of attracting the next generation of victims for their sex pest leaders
that's not the defense of trots or criticism of communists you think it is

 No.1759745

>>1759668
Oh I thought we were talking about parties that would be remotely relevant to the lives of the losers here, not foreign entities western honkie LARPers try stealing valor for
Also
>KPRF in particular
<Literal pro-UR controlled opposition
Cuck
>>1759695
Do you think I try stealing valor from what other people are doing?
I said it before and I’ll say it again, nobody gives a fuck about ML microsects, trying to point fingers at other failures doesn’t make you anything but a failure all the same
Every single person that uses this website could die right now alongside every single ML microsect in the entire Western world collapsing and the odds of revolution would be exactly the same

You fags really need to stop being so arrogant

 No.1759746

Oh here we go

 No.1759748

>>1759745
How exactly are they “state controlled opposition” when they’re one of the most powerful members of the United Russia popular front coalition? I hear this narrative a lot from westoids and it makes zero sense if you have even a cursory knowledge of Russia beyond what CNN tells you

 No.1759749

>>1759748
>How are the Communist Party of Russia controlled opposition when they’re in a coalition party with the ruling bourgeois nationalist party in Russia?
Fucking kill yourself

 No.1759751

>>1759738
>The more radical position was risking the USSR's fall
Useful idiot trotsky take.

BTW, did Stalin & co. have the same no strike policy for the axis? NO?

Makes me 🤔

 No.1759754

>>1759743
>communists were communists the whole time
The platform of the early Fourth International (classical united frontism, transitional demands, etc.) was closer to that of the Communist Parties as founded in Lenin's time than the Popular Frontism those parties adopted later. Principled MLs don't even deny this, they just claim that a new strategy was needed with the rise of fascism.
>trots kept rebranding themselves every decade in hopes of attracting the next generation of victims for their sex pest leaders
Once again your ignorance is obvious. Trotskyists have called themselves "socialist" for pretty much their entire existence from 1938 to the present. The IMT's move to call themselves "communist" is unique in this respect, but not surprising given the circumstances: since 1991 the Soviet Union has collapsed and the old official Communist Parties have mostly collapsed to a shadow of their former selves. Therefore the word "communism" is no longer associated with the Soviet Union or Popular Frontism, and therefore it's now safe for the IMT to rebrand themselves to appear more radical than the "socialism" of Bernie and Corbyn.

 No.1759756

intercringed.

Cringe within cringe.

 No.1759760

>>1759749
Bourgeois nationalism in oppressed nations is objectively a progressive force especially in the era of emerging multipolarity. As the real movement it’s no surprise Russia’s communists have a coalition with them

 No.1759763

>>1759751
The No-Strike Pledges were acceptable to Party members because of their devotion to the USSR, but the working class overwhelmingly hated them. During WWII it was not at all unheard of for workers to go on strike for double wages and win. Part of that number came from high inflation, but that made strike action even more essential - not acting meant that wages would fall. Before the war the working class had respect for the Communist Party because of their dedication to labor unions, but the no-strike policy lost all of that goodwill. After the war, state propaganda told them that Communism only represented the Soviet Union instead of the working class, and they believed it because the charge wasn't entirely wrong.

 No.1759764

>>1759760
>Since Russia doesn’t dominate the world it is oppressed
I reiterate
Kill yourself

Another useful idiot for literal capitalists, typical “ML” of the modern world, aka, talkative cockroach

 No.1759769

>>1759764
Russia is literally the target of a long running genocidal campaign funded by NATO, but sure they’re the real fascists because I guess they don’t allow trans flags in kindergartens.
The absolute state of western chauvinism on this board

 No.1759772

>>1759769
Russia is fascist, America is fascist

 No.1759773

>>1759738
>"Communism" was therefore associated with selling out the working class for ministerial seats and Soviet foreign policy, so therefore the early Trots were justified in reclaiming "socialism" for their own more radical platform.
More "radical platform"

>>1759772
>Therefore the word "communism" is no longer associated with the Soviet Union or Popular Frontism, and therefore it's now safe for the IMT to rebrand themselves to appear more radical than the "socialism" of Bernie and Corbyn.

 No.1759774

>>1759773
…whilst being milktoast succdems like Bernie and Corbyn

 No.1759775

>>1759772
Yes. Wise words from the distinguished, elderly, gay fucking tennis coach over here…

 No.1759777

>>1759772
>if you think about it a rape victim is just as much of a rapist as her assailant, I am very smart

 No.1759779

incredible intellect on display

 No.1759781

>>1759769
>Russia has rivals on the world stage, don’t you see, they’re oppressed!
<They’re literally losing to their rivals, this is what oppression looks like
Absolutely a stalinist in your soul
A true fucking moron, right to the bone

 No.1759782

>>1759777
Obviously the persecutions of Russian speakers in Ukraine is terrible but it's hardly like Russia had no involvement in causing this is it? Russia isn't a 'victim' just because of NATO enlargement

 No.1759783

>>1759782
I didn’t even notice these fucktards are claiming “Russia” is oppressed becaude they’re unironically going the full 19th Century ethno-nationalist route of stating Russia = all people of Russian descent all around the world

Just kill this retarded fascist fucking board already

 No.1759786

>>1759754
>Corbyn
corbyn might be a socdem (i think he was hiding his ML powerlevel though) but unlike literally all trots ever he's not a smug bastard who likes to shit on every communist, socialist or socdem who doesn't identify as a trot

 No.1759788

>>1759738
>The two words have been swapped around in a similar way multiple times in the past: before that, "communism" was adopted by the Third International to distance themselves from the "socialists" who sold out the working class after 1914 for ministerial seats and foreign policy goals (huh, sounds familiar),
Communism was adopted by the 3rd international because prior to that Social-democrats claimed to be Marxists.
The Bolsheviks used Communism because the Social-democrats abandoned Marxism in the 2nd international. The use of "Communist" by the bolsheviks was not opportunistic slogan mongering but a definitive break with the socialism of the Kerenskys, Macdonalds,

Trotskyites used communism for 4th International in 1938 because by then Communism had mass social appeal whilst half the world was going through the Great Depression and Americans were digging through rubbish bins for food. No one would read a "socialist" newspaper in 1938

Soviet Union had built up Russia in a decade that stunned even the bourgeois press (in 1938) and after a decade and a half of Trotsky saying "socialism can't be built in one country" he concedes that it has (Revolution Betrayed 1936)

So all your post really admits is that Trots are unprincipled sex pests who will switch in the wind for whatever is popular.

<To sum up:


<1) Trotsky does not explain, nor does he understand, the historical significance of the ideological disagreements among the various Marxist trends and groups, although these disagreements run through the twenty years’ history of Social Democracy and concern the fundamental questions of the present day (as we shall show later on);


<2) Trotsky fails to understand that the main specific features of group-division are nominal recognition of unity and actual disunity;


<3) Under cover of “non-factionalism” Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles, and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia.


<All that glitters is not gold. There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/may/x01.htm

 No.1759789

>>1759786
90% of the time it's Trots that are getting hated on by others

 No.1759792

>>1759782
NATO was caught red handed trying to develop bioweapons in Malorussia designed to target particular ethnicities and you’re still on here shilling for them with your “neither Washington nor Moscow” trot bullshit that everyone saw through back then and everyone still sees through now. At best you’re just a moral coward, but it’s far more likely you have an active interest in propagating disinfo

 No.1759794

>>1759789
nope nobody really cares about trots but trot sites are always full of slander against other communists, socialists and socdems. i reckon wsws toned down a bit on sectarianism recently but the trot itt introduced hmself with an arrogant post towards ML parties. what's more, there's already NATO apologism going on in this trot thread as well, what a surprise…not really

 No.1759797

>>1759760
None of that contradicts the assertion that the CPRF are controlled opposition. What you're saying applies to China too, where there are bourgeois parties in "coalition" with the CPC, but these are still clearly controlled opposition.

 No.1759798

File: 1707838936310.jpg (741.88 KB, 2560x2560, Mexico, 1940 (colorized).jpg)

>>1759788
>first paragraph
I wholeheartedly agree because I never claimed the move was "opportunistic slogan mongering". The Third International split from the Second International was justified because the self-described "socialists" had abandoned basic Marxist principles by supporting ministerialism and renouncing internationalism. You just refuse to recognize that the Fourth International split from the Third International was also justified because the official "Communist" parties had also abandoned basic Marxist principles by supporting ministerialism and renouncing internationalism. I wouldn't call myself a Trot today or back in 1938, but the split then was justified.

>Trotskyites used communism for 4th International in 1938

Except they didn't. They called themselves Socialists from the very beginning. How can I take you seriously as a critic of Trotskyism if you don't know the slightest bit about their history?

>Lenin quote

Lenin is criticizing Trotsky on an issue that Trotsky very publicly repented on after 1917. Once again, you would know this if you read any of Trotsky's major works.

 No.1759805

>>1759798
>Once again, you would know this if you read any of Trotsky's major works
<just read a little more Hitler bro I know Nazism seems bad and led to the death of millions but if you just read more Hitler you’ll understand why it’s heckin valid socialism!

 No.1759809

jesus christ

 No.1759811

>>1759805
>Taking it on faith that Trotsky is (apparently) just as bad as Hitler and can therefore be dismissed without debate, even though Trotsky was undeniably one of the leaders of the Russian revolution
Seriously though, read Trotsky, you'll learn something. He's one of if not the greatest communist prose-stylists of all time. You can plow through in-depth theoretical theory as if it were a novel. Even if you disagree with Trotsky (as I often do) you can't put his books down.

 No.1759813

>>1759792
Where's the proofs?

>>1759794
This topic is filled with people reeing about trots

 No.1759816

>>1759813
Also, every time a trot org or individual is brought up in a random topic salty MLs always have to chime in with 'rrrreeeee le icepick meme fucking trots'

 No.1759818

>>1759798
>I wouldn't call myself a Trot today or back in 1938
I'm not surprised. I would be ashamed also
>supporting ministerialism and renouncing internationalism.
Internationalism is not cosmopolitanism
Trots are cosmopolitans. In fact this very essence of cosmopolitanism and the "universal world" (led by American imperialism) is what made the trotskyites that became Neoconservatives when they inevitably abandoned Trotskyism
The very building block of socialism is the nation. You cannot be international without respecting nations rights to self determination.
< An international movement of the proletariat is possible only among independent nations.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1882/letters/82_02_07.htm
> They called themselves Socialists from the very beginning.
the trots called themselves "Bolshevik-Leninists" from 1920s into 1930s for a start. To dickride off lenin. They are opportunist rats. Taking whatever is popular at the time. They stand for nothing.
Despite previously referring to Leninism as
<Two policies may now be applied: to destroy ideologically and organically the fractional walls which still exist, and thus destroy the very foundations of Leninism, which is incompatible with the organisation of workers into a political party, but which can perfectly grow on the manure of splits; or, on the contrary, to conduct a fractional selection of anti- Leninists (Mensheviks or liquidators) by a complete liquidation of the divergences on tactics.
https://revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/trotltrs.htm

 No.1759821

>>1759818
But it's okay for Stalin to posture his ideology as 'Marxist Leninism' right?

 No.1759822

>>1759821
no bro that's completely different!!!!

 No.1759823

>>1759798
>Once again, you would know this if you read any of Trotsky's major works.
Why would I read any Trotsky, when this is what Lenin thinks of that retard

 No.1759825

>>1759821
Maybe because Stalin wasn’t a backstabbing snake who tried to sell out the USSR to foreign powers including Nazi Germany, that might have a little something to do with it

 No.1759827

File: 1707840482262.jpg (37.17 KB, 800x450, 1706979421011.jpg)

>>1759825
Yeah Stalin just stabbed every other socialist in the USSR who didn't bow down to him (and plenty who did anyway) in the front

There's literally no proof of Trotsky being a fascist or of any mystical 'trotskyist collaboration with foreign powers'

 No.1759828

>>1759818
>They are opportunist rats. Taking whatever is popular at the time. They stand for nothing.
You mean like how the Comintern went from claiming socdems were the same as Nazis to saying that communists should subordinate themselves to liberals to stop the Nazis?

 No.1759829

>>1759811
You’re right, that’s not a fair comparison. Hitler after all despite his delusions of grandeur was mostly just a pawn to the interests of American financial capital and Zionists. Trotsky meanwhile set out to sabotage the communist movement from the get go, fully of his own agency, and then on top of that have the gall to present a version of history where he was the “real” hero of the revolution. Hitler wouldn’t have been able to get past Danzig were it not for the efforts of Trotsky and his goons

 No.1759830

>>1759763
The Global South's working class had no revolutionary potential by the time. At several points late M&E came to similar conclusions regarding Britain (remaining hopeful, however) while after Lenin & his "labor aristocracy" critique it was established by proceeding events as factual.

Simply put, don't expect a working class revolution in the West while workers actively benefit from their nation's colonies.

I think that the USSR's funding of Western communist parties for this reason was completely wrongheaded, while supporting colonial revolutions (even bourgeois) was correct.

Also, for this reason "le anti-fascist unity" (collaborationist, completely true) policy of Stalin was 100% correct, as that was the most they could milk out of the West.

 No.1759831

>>1759829
Lol how did Trotsky do any of that

 No.1759832

>>1759827
I had no idea Stalin killed the entire population of the USSR, got a source on this?

 No.1759834

>>1759832
I mean high ranking Bolsheviks obviously

 No.1759836

>>1759835
He said ML of the modern world aka you not the Soviets

 No.1759837

>>1759834
>a couple dozen mid level pencil pushers and careerists were convicted in a court of law for engaging in active counterrevolutionary terrorism or aid to them and punished for it
<ZOMG STALIN KILLED LE REVOLUTION LONG LIVE TROTSKY AND BUKHARIN!!!

 No.1759839

>>1759779
Kekkin'

 No.1759840

>>1759835
It always comes back to Russophobia in the end, ultimately it extends all the way up to the mods

 No.1759843

>>1759837
>convicted in a court of law

Lmao you are seriously saying the Moscow trials were legit?

 No.1759848

>>1759823
>Why would I read any Trotsky, when this is what Lenin thinks of that retard
Stalin read Trotsky. Even after Trotsky was expelled for sabotage and his books banned, Stalin kept a copy of Terrorism and Communism. It was never meant to be an intstruction manual.

 No.1759849

>>1759840
Russia isn't ML anon

 No.1759851

>>1759838
Thanks

 No.1759853

>>1759837
>a couple dozen mid level pencil pushers and careerists
<Sitting and/or ex politburo and CC members, many of whom were party members well before the revolution when victory was a distant prospect
Come on Anon, I'm not certain of their innocence but this is a ridiculous mischaracterization.

 No.1759855

>>1759853
Strange how the USSR survived so well without these obviously vital and integral members of the party, guess that’s just evil tankie redfash magic for you

 No.1759856

>>1759855
Yeah m8 its almost like Great Man theory is a meme. It probably would have survived just as well without Stalin too, but that doesn't mean he could be characterized as a "mid level careerist pencil pusher" lmao.

 No.1759859

>>1759855
>Strange how the USSR survived so well

Bro Stalin's purges created a culture of conservatism and careerism as well as doctrinaire repetition of established theory that would haunt the USSR until it's final days

 No.1759862

yeah trots are annoying sure, but why are certain online "MLs" just straight up schizophrenic

 No.1759866

>>1759451
>There have been big sex scandals in the Canadian, British, Taiwanese and I think Swiss section of the IMT.

Imagine being a communist leader and not diddling your party members, tsk tsk

 No.1759869

>>1759860
>Objectively they served the same side of history when Trotsky was enthusiastic of the German assault's start on the USSR, proclaiming that after Hitler finally crushed the USSR's bureaucracy a "TRVE" DoTP in Russia might become a >possibility.
You're just making shit up now. Trotsky's position on the USSR was that it remained a worker's state and that its existing institutions were salvageable, despite being degenerated by bureaucracy. He stated that the USSR was worth preserving and that communists should support them against the Nazis and the West. He couldn't have been "enthusiastic" about the German assault on the USSR because he died in 1940 before it started.

 No.1759871

>>1759856
Great Man Theory is the hypothesis that certain individuals shape the material conditions, as opposed to Historical Materialism which states that great men are themselves products of material conditions. It is not a synonym for “person I don’t like is getting a lot of praise and that makes me mad!” It may shock you but some people are better than others, some are even especially extraordinary

 No.1759872

>>1759798
>Lenin is criticizing Trotsky on an issue that Trotsky very publicly repented on after 1917

He only pretended to repent. It's just like with Bukharin - they repented openly, but in secret continued on to stand on such platform. They fought Lenin tooth and nail on every issue, but when Lenin died both Trotsky and Bukharin immediately started claiming to be Lenin's best buddies - because dead people can't oppose such scum moves

 No.1759874

>>1759840
>Russophobia
So if you're a retarded Russia shilling US/Anglo honkie (90% of this board) suddenly you are also part of the historical ethno-nationalist project of Russia?

You should cut off the shaft too, since you already been castrated by the utter retardation that is campism

 No.1759875

>>1759862
any organization clinging to dead old men is schizophrenic. it's a precondition of an ideological outlook.

 No.1759879

File: 1707841799294.jpg (104.43 KB, 720x1080, DuBoisOnTrot.jpg)

>>1759869
>He couldn't have been "enthusiastic"

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/08/hitsarmies.htm

Hitler’s soldiers are German workers and peasants. After the betrayal of the social democracy and of the Comintern, these workers and peasants in large numbers succumbed to the fumes of chauvinism, thanks to the unprecedented military victories. But the reality of class relations is stronger than chauvinist intoxication.

The armies of occupation must live side by side with the conquered peoples; they must observe the impoverishment and despair of the toiling masses; they must observe the latter’s attempts at resistance and protest, at first muffled and then more and more open and bold.

On the other hand, the German military and bureaucratic caste, after a series of victories and robberies of Europe, will rise still higher above the people, will flaunt more and more its powers, its privileges, and become demoralized like every caste of upstarts.

The German soldiers, that is, the workers and peasants, will in the majority of cases have far more sympathy for the vanquished peoples than for their own ruling caste. The necessity to act at every step in the capacity of “pacifiers” and oppressors will swiftly disintegrate the armies of occupation, infecting them with a revolutionary spirit.

 No.1759880

>>1759874
Campism as we all know is when you don’t sit on the sidelines like a coward when clear struggles between good and evil are unfolding, once again a stunning display of Trotskyite logic

 No.1759881

>>1759871
I don't dislike Stalin, but if you think it was his personal presence that allowed the USSR to survive then you aren't a Marxist. Their victory was a collective endeavour involving millions of contributions. Generally speaking the Red Army was most successful later in the war when he delegated the most authority to competent commanders.

 No.1759886

>>1759831
It all makes sense when you consider that MLs are fighting a war to dominate an irrelevant subculture
A literal fucking loser version of Stalin's purges, pathetic miserable cunts fighting for relevance in spaces of societal irrelevance

You need to be absolutely deranged to genuinely think "Trotsky" derailed Western communism rather than Stalin's bipolar-ass strategies, the fact that folks like the CPUSA refused to think for their fucking selves and coordinate their own actions, and of course the literal Red Scare

The hatred for Trotskyists is one more part of the pitiful subculture that currently drapes itself in the tattered dingy red cloak of the fallen Soviet Union.

 No.1759887

>>1759879
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/xx/ww2.htm

>Foreign policy is an extension and development of domestic policy. In order to understand correctly the Kremlin’s foreign policy, it is always necessary to take into account two factors: on the one hand, the position of the USSR in capitalist encirclement and, on the other, the position of the ruling bureaucracy within the Soviet society. The bureaucracy defends the USSR. But above all it defends itself inside the USSR. The internal position of the bureaucracy is incomparab1y more vulnerable than the international position of the USSR. The bureaucracy is merciless against its disarmed adversaries inside the country. But it is extremely cautious and sometimes even cowardly before its well-armed external enemies. If the Kremlin enjoyed the support of the popular masses and had confidence in the solidity of the Red Army, it could assume a more independent position in relation to both imperialist camps. However, reality is different. The isolation of the totalitarian bureaucracy in its own country threw it into the arms of the nearest, the most aggressive and therefore the most dangerous imperialism.


<totalitarian bureaucracy

<The internal position of the bureaucracy is incomparab1y more vulnerable than the international position of the USSR.
<If the Kremlin enjoyed the support of the popular masses and had confidence in the solidity of the Red Army, it could assume a more independent position in relation to both imperialist camps

So, if USSR was strong and communist, according to Trotsky, it would have stood proudly alone in capitalist isolation, and then Nazis would have marched on with the support from the united West!

 No.1759888

>>1759879
Saying that Germany will undermine itself by going to war isn't the same thing as being "enthusiastic" for it. There's also nothing to indicate that he's talking about the USSR specifically here, since it was not yet at war with Germany. He only makes general references to Europe, which makes sense because at that point most of the German occupied countries were in the West.

 No.1759889

File: 1707842007496.png (434.44 KB, 1575x1244, Trtotskyites knock knock.png)

>>1759859
>Bro Stalin's purges created a culture of conservatism and careerism as well as doctrinaire repetition of established theory that would haunt the USSR until it's final days
>Kruschevs coup
>kruschevite political and historical revisionism and economic revisionism in return of market forces in Kosygin reforms of 1965
>US gets the Saudis to collapse price of oil leading to 70s and 80s Soviet stagnation in economy (coupled now with the inefficient market economy brought in by Kosygin)
>Afghan trap of 1980s to lure Soviets into Afghanistan
<The shooting of a load of Trotskyite traitors and faggots that was cheered on by the majority of the population was a factor in Soviet collapse 50 years later!

 No.1759891

>>1759880
Only a beast believes in action for its own sake
If you want to serve Russia and the BRICS camp so bad absolutely nothing is stopping you from going to the RF yourself and enlisting to stop Ukrainian NATOist neo-fascism or whatever the fuck, but of course you're a cowardly cunt to your rotten hollow core which is why you need to tell yourself the fucking Russian Federation is fighting for communism "for you"

You faggots make DSA look like revolutionary guerrillas

 No.1759893

>>1759889
>Kruschevs coup
The same party discipline mechanisms that were used by Stalin to go after Trots and Bukharinites were later deployed by Khruschev and Gorbachev.

 No.1759898

>>1759883
The popular front strategy itself isn't the issue, it's that the transition from Social Fascism theory to the popular front was the exact kind of jarring reversal of policy that you're criticizing Trotsky for.

 No.1759899

>>1759887
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/xx/kremlin.htm

>The capitulation of France is not a simple military episode. It is part of the catastrophe of Europe. Mankind can no longer live under the regime of imperialism. Hitler is not an accident; he is only the most consistent and the most bestial expression of imperialism, which threatens to crush our whole civilization.


Hitler is murdering civilization!!!1

>During a period of five years the Kremlin and its Comintern propagandized for an “alliance of democracies” and “people’s fronts” with the aim of preventive war against “fascist aggressors.” This propaganda, as witnessed most strikingly in the example of France, had a tremendous influence upon the popular masses. But when war really approached, the Kremlin and its agency, the Comintern, jumped unexpectedly into the camp of the “fascist aggressors.” Stalin with his horse-trader mentality sought in this way to cheat Chamberlain, Daladier, Roosevelt, and to gain strategic positions in Poland and the Baltic countries. But the Kremlin’s jump had immeasurably greater consequences: not only did it cheat the governments but it disoriented and demoralized the popular masses, in the first place in the so-called democracies. With its propaganda of “people’s fronts” the Kremlin hindered the masses from conducting the fight against the imperialist war.


HOW DARED STALIN NOT FIGHT AGAINST HITLER?!?!?!??! Entente imperialist camp is suffering, he should have jumped into the meatgrinder to save them!!!

>Molotov’s latest speech confirms that the Kremlin continues to be a satellite of Berlin and Rome. The Communist leaders in various countries have calmed their parties with promises that tomorrow if not today Moscow will turn towards the “democracies.” Molotov’s speech belies these promises. Five years of “anti-fascist” people’s fronts are definitely unmasked as charlatanism. Moscow’s foreign policy is determined by power politics and not by political principles.


And so on and so forth. Way to forget how Poland blocked USSR's attempts to save Czechoslovakia, how Entente tried to land troops in Norway to intervene into Soviet-Finnish war

 No.1759901

>>1759893
>The same party discipline mechanisms that were used by Stalin to go after Trots and Bukharinites

You mean tolerating them for decades, trying to reeducate them of their erroneous positions, was the same discipline mechanism like the one used by Khruschev against Stalin's son, where he was placed behind iron bars and was starved and tortured to death? Oh, and don't forget an assassination of Beria

 No.1759907

>>1759893
Oh no
The class struggle was defeated after a prolonged period.
Guess this means we abandon leninism

 No.1759910

File: 1707842658894.jpg (45.45 KB, 680x382, 1699036559263.jpg)

>>1759897
A better question is
What relevance does it have to the gaggle of moronic westerners arrogantly championing their own political views as if their movement hasn't been an utter failure in their own countries, in most countries, and when the only party you have left to try associating with yourselves (even though you've never been part of the CPC and don't interact with anyone in it and its from a different country) capitulated to capitalism nearly 50 years ago by now?

Do you have any idea how fucking pathetic it is that when people ask what you've done your immediate move is to talk about a foreign government rather than a single action you've taken in your entire fucking life?

 No.1759918

>>1759888
Trotsky was literally frothing at the mouth when USSR didn't get dragged into the war against Nazis in 1930s, lmao

>During the Moscow negotiations of the past year, the delegates of Great Britain and France played a rather pitiful role. “Do you see these gentlemen?” the German agents asked the rulers of the Kremlin. “If we divide Poland together, they will not so much as move their little finger.” While signing the agreement Stalin, with his political limitations, could expect that there would not be any great war. In any case, he bought himself the possibility of escaping for the next period the necessity of involvement in a war. And nobody knows what is beyond the “next period.”


Then:

>The invasions of Poland and of the Baltic countries were the inevitable result of the alliance with Germany.


Uh-huh, Soviets expanding communism is somehow bad, actually

>Not without Ribbentrop’s influence, as was said, the Kremlin supposed that England and France would not make a move against the accomplished fact of the subjugation of Poland and that consequently Hitler might gain a free hand for further expansion toward the east. Under these conditions the alliance with Germany was completed by material guarantees taken by Russia against its ally. Quite probably the initiative even in this sphere belonged to the dynamic partner, that is Hitler, who proposed to the cautious and temporizing Stalin that he take guarantees by force of arms.


So, in Trotsky's eyes, Entente didn't intervene into the war immediately was not because Entente geared itself towards war with Soviets, most and foremost, and thus was unprepared for the war against Germans, no, it was such because of le Nazis fooling Soviets into splitting Poland, lmao. As if a fucking Poland wasn't a fascist state that tried to start another war against USSR and with the support from Entente.

>Not less important were the considerations of internal policy. After five years of uninterrupted agitation against fascism, after the elimination of the old guard Bolsheviks and of the general staff for their alleged alliance with the Nazis, the unexpected alliance with Hitler was extremely unpopular in the country. It was necessary to justify it with immediate and brilliant successes. The annexation of western Ukraine and White Russia and the peaceful conquest of strategic positions in the Baltic states were designed to prove to the population the wisdom of the foreign policy of “the father of nations.” Finland upset these plans a bit.


Oh yeah, yet another piece of amazing analysis! You want to make a move towards ensuring peace with your reactionary neighbor, but you have his spies in your country; obviously you would ALLY WITH THE SPIES!!1 How dared Stalin uphold the purity of communist party and country to make sure that the spies and agents of fascism won't use the peace as an excuse to cause rebellions, murders, etc etc?

 No.1759922

>>1759888
Trotsky's enthusiasm when nazi germany started the invasion of the USSR is palpable in his texts of the time. The fag was literally optimistic and enthusiastic.

 No.1759923

>>1759897
>China
>ML

 No.1759930

File: 1707843160598.jpg (7.3 KB, 183x275, images.jpeg.jpg)

>>1759917
I'm not a trot to begin with
Do you not feel like a clown framing everything in terms of a non-existent slapfight between sects that don't even matter?
Also
>Uhhh le people outside the West
Marxist-Leninist Communism isn't significantly more popular outside the West, Militant Islam and Nationalism are both more potent and organized forces, but I know MLs also struggle with not essentializing non-white people and basically feeding into a post-modern version of the noble savage myth

 No.1759933

File: 1707843209398.png (922.89 KB, 1920x1080, smile.png)


 No.1759934

>>1759918
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/08/vassal.html

>Molotov, it is true, tried to cover the present Kremlin policy with anti-imperialist phraseology. But its falseness strikes one’s eyes. Molotov unmasked England’s wish to retain her colonies. But he kept silent about Germany’s and Italy’s wish to take them. He spoke about the imperialism of Japan and the United States but he didn’t find a word of condemnation for Hitler’s banditry and ᴉuᴉlossnW’s jackal politics. Even more, he underlined for the first time that the German-Soviet pact assured free hands to Hitler. This unilateral and thoroughly sham “fight” against imperialism only reveals that Moscow’s politics is not independent but serves the interests of one imperialism against the other.


Oh yeah, fuck Molotov for refusing to give Nazis even an inch of an excuse to invade USSR, thus forcing Hitler into the position of unprovoked agression. Also, funny how Trotsky defends the Allies and cries about Stalin not jumping in to save them, to become their fucking meatshield, that poor little Europeans had to suffer the war with Nazis on their own soil!

>>1759928

Yeah, just read Trotsky himself on the issue of Second World War

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/xx/kremlin.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/08/vassal.html
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/xx/ww2.htm

It's all so fucking obvious it's not even funny

 No.1759935

>>1759928
Pro-NATO is when you don't shill for the anti-communist Russian Federation, pro-British Empire is when you don't shill for the German Empire; the dessicated and dusty final form of Stalin's political excrement sure is pathetic

Imagine having to hang on Putin's nuts like a literal parasite and saying you're something called a "Comoonizt"

 No.1759940

>>1759936
Almost like the US needs to come up with a narrative that works for Americans to get them to support another war now that free trade is ending and the protectionist scramble for markets is replacing it

 No.1759948

>>1759936
Also shit like this is how you demonstrate "Real Politick" is just an excuse to justify the spineless opportunism of you Twitter leftist scum
When it made sense to trade with China, China was a liberalized competitive capitalist partner, now that their GDP is exceeding America's they're once again dastardly commies; it has nothing to do with ideology

 No.1759950

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/05/workers.htm

>If Soviet economic life had been conducted in the interests of the people; if the bureaucracy had not devoured and vainly wasted the major portion of the national income; if the bureaucracy had not trampled underfoot the vital interests of the population, then the USSR would have been a great magnetic pole of attraction for the toilers of the world and the inviolability of the Soviet Union would have been assured. But the infamous oppressive regime of Stalin has deprived the USSR of its attractive power. During the war with Finland, not only the majority of the Finnish peasants but also the majority of the Finnish workers, proved to be on the side of their bourgeoisie. This is hardly surprising since they know of the unprecedented oppression to which the Stalinist bureaucracy subjects the workers of near-by Leningrad and the whole of the USSR. The Stalinist bureaucracy, so bloodthirsty and ruthless at home and so cowardly before the imperialist enemies, has thus become the main source of war danger to the Soviet Union.


Literally an argument of a lib lmao. If USSR was so good and communistic, why's that then the workers of the world didn't rise up?!?!?!

Nevermind that Europe had to literally spawn fascism to protect against Soviet influence, and fascists and democracies had to spend on propaganda so fucking much money that it closely mirrors today's China mastering the reality while Westoids keep on creating copium articles of "but at what cost?" in response to China. And here we have trotskyists, too, who go out of their fucking way to try and add uyghur genocide allegations, 996 and another nonsense like gutter oil into the discussion, as if those weren't comprehensively proven to be a myth

Also, it's fucking amazing how Trotsky refuses to call out Entente on assisting the murder of Czechoslovakia. HHMMMM WONDER WHY'S THAT NEVER COMES INTO PICTURE IN TROTSKY'S WRITINGS

 No.1759953

>>1759935
>Pro-NATO is when you don't shill for the anti-communist Russian Federation

But Russia is less anti-communist than Europe and USA. Hell, Russia has the most trots out there, and they whine about Russia allying with China incessantly

 No.1759955

>>1759942
Are you genuinely too schizo to remember what nonsense you're spewing, or is it too empty and devoid of actual content for you to bother remembering?
Every five minutes you spout off something about "trots" as if anyone fucking cares about trots
Do you think Trots being losers makes you something other than a loser?
No, you fags tend to be much lower than trots, as far as trots go, most of them actually do take to the streets

The fuck do you do by comparison? Fight the online war as Xi's strongest keyboard warrior?

 No.1759957

>>1759953
>Sure, it's an anti-communist nationalist hellscape, but it's a full 3% less of one than the other countries I claim to despise for being anti-communist nationalist hellscapes

The digital revolution and its consequences has been a disaster for Marxism

 No.1759963

>>1759960
Trots don't think the USSR is worse than the west, fucking retard

 No.1759965

>>1759955
>le taking to the streets

There's an entire China to take to the fucking world and cause the collapse of Westoid hegemony.

>>1759960

Nah, they just think "woah, it's just like present day!" and feel vindicated for believing Westoid propaganda against communist China

 No.1759966

>>1759960
>Aligned with capitalist superpowers
Half this board shills the Russian Federation every single fucking day

vs

Trots saying anything remotely critical of a dead symbol

 No.1759967

>>1759950
>Also, it's fucking amazing how Trotsky refuses to call out Entente on assisting the murder of Czechoslovakia. HHMMMM WONDER WHY'S THAT NEVER COMES INTO PICTURE IN TROTSKY'S WRITINGS

Call me crazy but maybe he was more interested in writing about the USSR?

 No.1759968

>>1759960
The thing you have to understand about Trots and Trotsky is that their ideology is incoherent by design precisely because it’s nothing more than window dressing. The goal of Trotsky and his ilk has always been genocide of Russians and slavery of the third world to the imperial core, out of petty spite for the revolution not occurring in a western nation with a vanguard of elitist cosmopolitan intellectuals like he was, and instead actually composed of the working class which he felt outside the west were too stupid to ever liberate themselves. As someone else in the thread said, it always comes back to Russophobia

 No.1759969

File: 1707844184901.png (318.5 KB, 587x471, ClipboardImage.png)

this is what some people itt actually believe

 No.1759971

>>1759965
Yes tankie
And the important thing is that, as always, you don't actually have to do anything but post online
You people are so fucking pathetic

 No.1759976

>>1759966
Russia isn’t capitalist

 No.1759977

File: 1707844297984.png (682.76 KB, 867x861, 1647694497324.png)

>>1759969
Apes together. Strong.

 No.1759980

>>1759967
he calls himself a specialist on USSR and it's politics, yet refuses to learn about the reasons why USSR did what it did? How does it work in your head? What, you think USSR losing it's external security alliances in the face of Czechoslovakia and France due to FUCKING POLAND BLOCKING SOVIET HELP TO CZECHS, AND FRENCH BETRAYING USSR TO FEED CZECHS TO HITLER, was a nothingburger?

 No.1759982

>>1759977
China you can argue is semi socialist despite their deviations, but Russia, no way

 No.1759986

>>1759969
But getting pulled into China's sphere of influence IS beneficial to Russia's communists.

 No.1759987

File: 1707844581106.png (703.34 KB, 540x1001, 1679159844075.png)


 No.1759988

>>1759980
It's not a nothingburger but still hardly makes Molotov Ribbentrop look good

 No.1759995

>>1759984
>This is the difference between armchairs and people with skin in the game
Is it when you "don't fear glowies" anymore because all you actually do is argue in support of foreign entities that don't even know you exist rather than anything in real life that could actually endanger you?

I'm sure it's easy to be fearless when the greatest threat you face is your own schizo fear of the cops showing up at your door for posting in support of Stalin

 No.1759996

>>1759976
Russia is not capitalist because Russia fights monopoly capital, therefore Russia is anti-monopoly-capitalist, therefore Russia is anti-capitalist.

 No.1759997

>>1759988
What Molotov-Ribbentrop you retard? Are you yet again presenting the historical fake argument about Soviets signing some secret treaty with Nazis under the guise of trade agreement?

"Look good" my ass. Entente literally went out of it's way to intervene into Finland and to stroke Polish nationalism against USSR. They fucking tried to PREVENT THE PEACE TREATY BETWEEN USSR AND FINLAND despite claiming that they were pro-peace, ffs. This is the real fucking analogy to present days, of duplicious face of Entente/NATO and of their imperialist diplomacy

 No.1760000

>>1759997
Holy shit, nobody said nato is good or the entente was good

 No.1760002

>>1760000
There’s people in this thread doing apologia for NATO talking points and Russophobia right now, quit being obtuse

 No.1760006

>>1760002
Like everybody already said nato and Russia can both be bad

 No.1760010

Bless you anon, I'm learning a lot with this discussion (which I'm not part of). The citations are fucking golden. 👏👏👏👏
Much love ❤

 No.1760013

>WARNING! Stalin’s press will of course declare that this letter is transmitted to the USSR by “agents of imperialism.” Be forewarned that this, too, is a lie. This letter will reach the USSR through reliable revolutionists who are prepared to risk their lives for the cause of socialism. Make copies of this letter and give it the widest possible circulation. L.T.

>>1760000
Say it fucking clearly out loud. "Both sides bad". Come on, say that USSR was also a baddie - for trying to protect Czechoslovakia, for tolerating Polish nonsense for the sake of European security for decades, for trying to negotiate with Finland while Finland WAS OPENLY ARMING ITSELF TOWARDS BECOMING THE SPRINGBOARD OF INVASION INTO USSR, for USSR having multiple fucking open armed conflicts with hudnreds of thousands of soldiers involved from both sides against fascist Japan, for supporting Turkey in it's neutrality - yeah, come on, say it openly - USSR was le bad for trying it's fucking hardest to preserve peace and to prepare for the coming anticommunist crusade - by splitting the crusaders' unity, too

 No.1760015

>>1760006
Except they’re not “both bad”. One is defending itself against genocide and is aligned the oppressed nations of the earth against exploitation, the other is NATO. How are these remotely morally equal?

 No.1760020

>>1760011
No. That is my logical proof

 No.1760021

>>1760002
>NATO talking points
<AKA criticizing the Russian Federation
If this board wasn't an irrelevant asylum on the ass end of the internet I would say there's a higher chance of Russia doing influence ops here than anyone else, just by the sheer effort to warp this board's ever worsening politics and culture into a centrality around unmasked nationalism draped in paint job that looks more like bloody shit than communist red

 No.1760022


 No.1760024

>>1760013
He absolutely knows what he’s doing. Trotskyites are incapable of honesty even when their lies are blatantly exposed, it’s sort of a defining trait of their movement

 No.1760026

>>1760009
I'm saying your politics centers around cheerleading China because you're a worthless cowardly cunt that's never done anything in your useless life
But then again, I can't imagine trying to take action if you can barely lift yourself out of your armchair

 No.1760028

>>1759988
Molotov-ribbentrop pact was unbelievably based

Just read how coping Werhmacht-Jackboot-Turned-Historians cope about it

 No.1760030

>>1760013
>Say it fucking clearly out loud. "Both sides bad". Come on, say that USSR was also a baddie

 No.1760031

>>1759918
>During the Moscow negotiations of the past year, the delegates of Great Britain and France played a rather pitiful role. “Do you see these gentlemen?” the German agents asked the rulers of the Kremlin. “If we divide Poland together, they will not so much as move their little finger.” While signing the agreement Stalin, with his political limitations, could expect that there would not be any great war.

Oh, and by the way. Remember when Voroshilov had talks with Entente's delegates, where Voroshilov tried his hardest to create a united antifascist front? And then learning that Entente didn't actually want any of that, and their delegates had no fucking rights to sign any agreements? http://hrono.ru/dokum/193_dok/19390822vorosh.html

And how Halifax openly admitted that negotiations were done only because they didn't want Soviets to ally with Germans? Not because they wanted to oppose Nazis together, noooo, it was to FUCKING ISOLATE USSR, TO MAINTAIN SOVIET ISOLATION

 No.1760032

>>1760015
Who gives a shit about morals, for real?

 No.1760038

>>1760032
Anybody who’s a historical materialist for one

 No.1760041

>>1760021
>Is it that I'm among 21st century communists online who overwhelmingly disagree with me on a question of imperialism (and I'm a fucking retarded pseudo-communist as a consequence) or is it that I'm wrong?
<No! I'm the only true communist here and everybody else is funded by Russia!!!

L M A O
M
A
0

 No.1760046

>>1760041
Once again
What's important is that you have successfully surmised all you really have to do is tell people on the internet how cool China, Russia, and Iran are
It's so good to be able to conjure a self-serving position that only requires you to continue doing the nothing you've done for your entire life

Keep telling me how the actions of people you don't know makes you something other than an invertebrate, go ahead

 No.1760048

>>1760021

Leninism
>Entire history of Leninism in the era of imperialism was National Liberation struggles
>Communists have supported national liberation struggles whether bourgeois in origin or proletarian (Lenin support Emir of Afghanistan and Egypt)
>Why do all these Communists see revolutionary potential in bourgeois nations on the periphery of imperialism?
>They are funded by Russia!
If it wasn't for the people you decry this site would be an even worse gloryhole than it is

 No.1760052

>>1760026
>I'm saying your politics centers around cheerleading China because you're a worthless cowardly cunt that's never done anything in your useless life
At face value, and as a matter of logic itself, my personal "worth" (capitalist meme, btw) has nothing to do with the governments I support.

>But then again, I can't imagine trying to take action if you can barely lift yourself out of your armchair

My country's proletariat FUCKING WISHES it had the same elevation of basic needs met as the CHINESE PROLETARIAT did, but according to you me acknowledging this simple fact makes me [insert trot bad word]>

KYS.

 No.1760057

>>1760031
The soviets were kinda idealistic in said efforts, but they had to try nevertheless. Wonder if you agreed

 No.1760063

>>1760046
>What's important is that you have successfully surmised all you really have to do is tell people on the internet how cool China
But anon! What makes you think I only tell ppl on the internet about the abso-fucking-coolness of China? As opposed to you I have a life and an actual working place among factory proles, and believe it or not, when I tell my coworkers about how fucking based China is THEY NOD.

It's almost as if you were outside the imperial core basic facts mattered.

 No.1760068

>>1760046
Who said global north communists have no role to play? You imagined this.
Especially seeing as how Israel's genocide of Hamas is going, the fact that the US, NL and other countries are bombing the fuck out of Yemen, the bipartisan bill to send 91 billion USD to Israel and Ukraine, the coup in Venezuela, the coup in Bolivia, ECOWAS and the Sahel situation, I can't list even a quarter of huge reasons why the global north communists (and many many liberals fighting for the global south) are absolutely cornerstone in the immediate future.
>>1760048
>an even worse gloryhole than it is
Like saying
<an even worse ice-cream shop than it is

 No.1760071

>>1760048
If it wasn't for the people I despise this site wouldn't have devolved into a sectarian, barely active, schizophrenic shithole where stalinists regularly accuse each other of being CIA agents because some other online loser isn't being opportunistic enough today
>>1760052
Still here shilling for China rather than taking even a single action in your life to try getting workers in your own country the gains you claim Chinese workers have (universal healthcare, UBI, a shorter work week, and free housing not among them LMAO)?

Imagine trying to dunk on trots when you're genuinely lower than the most lame dork throwing shitty rags at strangers on the sidewalk.

I'm guessing you're here to get validation for doing nothing and being nothing?

 No.1760072

>>1760021
Then leave if you hate it so much. Take your bad faith genocidal talking points, take your radlib buddies who spout the same rhetoric, head on back to Reddit and leave those of us actually committed to the real movement in theory and practice to have serious discussions. I guarantee if your clique left the quality of leftypol would skyrocket overnight

 No.1760073

>>1760063
>Hehe, I don't only shill for China online, I also shill for China at work!
Genuinely impressed, and here I thought it was purely digital rhetorical action
It's also physical purely rhetorical action

 No.1760076

>>1760072
>Genocidal talking points
You speak like the dorks on Reddit that tell you if you don't voot for Joe Brandon you therefore endorse trans genocide

If you don't want to be called a cockroach maybe grow a spine?

 No.1760081

>>1760071
>If it wasn't for the people I despise this site wouldn't have devolved into
Take the Stalinists out and this site is just nonstop apologia for NATO
I can see why you'd like that

 No.1760087

>>1760075
They regularly do, in fact, amidst spewing other schizoid insults, like calling people [X irrelevant 20th Century ideology] as if that's an insult to anyone that's ever had sex or friends

 No.1760091

>>1760088
Because I don't like Reddit or Dis.cord, that's basically it.

 No.1760098

>>1760088
>Yeah, trots and their student base is exactly what Marx meant by "the real movement."
Uhh, no
I think you missed my point, which, tbf, stalinists tend to be illiterate liars by default, so it's to be expected

You focus on the irrelevance of trots to drop a smokescreen over your own irrelevance. Trots aren't any real movement nor are their student "comrades", sure, but neither are the ML milieu in the majority of the world.

The only people I put my faith in are working people, all LARPers and assorted freaks can buzz off

 No.1760101


 No.1760103

going to be another PSL or someshit that no one ever hears about

 No.1760104

herregud

 No.1760107

>>1760098
>stalinists tend to be illiterate liars
Source?

 No.1760109

>>1760107
Leftypol.org

 No.1760110

>>1759917
>I wonder why there are no mass trot parties in the (post)colonial world!!!
PSUV are arguably Trotskyist.

 No.1760114

>>1759950
>>If Soviet economic life had been conducted in the interests of the people; if the bureaucracy had not devoured and vainly wasted the major portion of the national income; if the bureaucracy had not trampled underfoot the vital interests of the population, then the USSR would have been a great magnetic pole of attraction for the toilers of the world and the inviolability of the Soviet Union would have been assured. But the infamous oppressive regime of Stalin has deprived the USSR of its attractive power.
<Literally an argument of a lib lmao.
Replace Stalin with Khruschev and its literally the exact argument made by anti-revisionists. The great irony of course is that Trotskyists and anti-revisionist MLs are in agreement about what went wrong in the USSR, they just blame different people. Yet here they are, impotently slap fighting and calling each other irrelevant.

 No.1760115

>>1760098
>The only people I put my faith in are working people
What's your job?

>>1760103
PSL (Marcyite) > general Trots

 No.1760119

>>1760110
Well, for starters, they don't preclaim it to be the case.

 No.1760123

>>1760113
Inb4 “barista” or some other kushy service industry “job”

 No.1760124

>>1760119
>they don't preclaim it to be the case
Chavez did.
https://communist.red/chavez-study-trotsky-transitional-programme/

 No.1760126

File: 1707848763226.jpg (71.44 KB, 720x472, trots.jpg)

Remember back in 2020 when the CIA was trying to coup Belerus, the opposition party were running on a platform of 'decommunisation'(IE outlawing the Communist party) and privatising everything to Western multinationals and the retard trots did their usual free work for Western intelligence agencies?

 No.1760129

>>1760126
Oh and opposition was waving nazi flags

 No.1760130

I knew this thread was gonna be awesome

 No.1760136

>>1760088
> Dengbeetle
> "Stalinists"
Pick one

 No.1760138

>>1760126
"Trotskyism" is an incoherent category in the modern day. PSL was founded as a Trot org and they're generally more hardline in their anti-imperialism than the "ML" CPUSA. Marcyites were a Trotskyist branch (which iirc is where the PSL came from) and advocated virtually unconditional support for the USSR during the Cold War. Meanwhile you had that Italian "ML" org expressing support for ISIS lmao. This is why these arguments are retarded. These labels effectively mean nothing in the absence of any kind of central leadership like an Internationale. Instead it just ends up with people doing stupid shit like hunting for the worst takes from anybody who identifies as the "other side", or projecting later developments onto the people that they claim to be successors of, regardless of whether or not that matches their actual views. I find it pretty insane for example that Trotsky is put out as the poster child for "both sidesing" imperialist wars when he said that communists should support outright fascist regimes like Vargas' if they're fighting an imperialist power.

 No.1760147

>>1760141
>I sometimes wonder if Trotsky got to live for 150 years or so and having seen the stats of post-socialist country's populations overwhelmingly say that they lived better under socialism ("bureaucratic evil Stalinist totalitarian Stalinist hellhole), how he'd reconcile the average proles very real senriments with what he's been saying his entire post-Stalin career.
What he said during his exile was that the USSR was a genuine (albeit degenerated) worker's state that was worth defending, but that it was in danger of backsliding into capitalism due to the entrenchment of the bureaucracy. As far as I'm concerned the dismantling of the USSR by the Yeltsinites was his prediction coming true. So there would be no reconciliation to be made, he would probably consider it to be a vindication of what he was saying in the 30s.

 No.1760149

>>1760136
A new angle

 No.1760198

File: 1707851026758.png (127.5 KB, 1000x800, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.1760204

>>1760195
>since the very market-based reforms that made the bureaucracy favor (read: incentivized economically) a full on regime change towards capitalism came after Stalin
Yes but Trotskyists argue that it was Stalin who created this bureaucracy and gave them the tools they needed to carry out these market reforms. MLs say the same thing about Khruschev, so they're essentially in agreement of the root cause, it's just a question of timing.

 No.1760256

>>1760239
>K, but adults know it was Lenin. It was Lenin, anon, the same Lenin whoms't Trotsky continually referenced as daddy, but HAD to create said bureaucracy while being critical thereof.
Yeah well, I don't disagree. I think all three of them were forced to compromise in ways that over time produced an ideologically stagnant, careerist bureaucracy that eventually spat out the likes of Yeltsin and Yakovlev. It was a cumulative process of course and I don't think any of them intended to damage socialism or foresaw the long term consequences of their actions. My point is just that the existence of such an issue is not seriously disputed between MLs and Trots, although Trotsky deserves some credit for identifying the malaise a little earlier.
>You can draw a single line between the two but that does not constitute a proof of causation.
I think proof of causation is found in the fact that the architects of the USSR's destruction admitted to using the tools of party discipline developed in the 20s and 30s to carry out their programme. The very same tools that were used by Stalin and Khruschev to consolidate their respective positions.

 No.1760324

If they were a real threat, the secret police would've already destroyed them

 No.1760326

Bolshevism still makes the stalinoid seethe like nothing else, throwing themselves into endless hysterics to slander real communists. It's a beautiful sight

 No.1760376

>>1760138
>Brings up retarded burger politics as if the retard burgers were ever relevant to communism or made any significant contribution to communism

 No.1760395

WTF?????

 No.1760398

>>1760395
the israel palestine thread is down the hall

 No.1760494

>looking through every biography of trots be like

 No.1760542

>>1760376
>Here are some Trotskyist parties with good anti-imperialist lines and some ML ones with glowie positions
<T-those don't count
Pottery

 No.1760615

Intercringed

 No.1760644

>>1760629
See: >>1760138

 No.1760672

File: 1707865780557.png (420.24 KB, 400x533, spart-nk.png)

>>1760147
>What he said during his exile was that the USSR was a genuine (albeit degenerated) worker's state that was worth defending, but that it was in danger of backsliding into capitalism due to the entrenchment of the bureaucracy.
You'll see Ortho Trots take positions like that today.

 No.1760679

>>1760672
>pic
Trot is worse in terms of "looks" than fucking CPG-ML.

DEBats me

 No.1760777

>>1759976
Okay, humor us: if Russia isn't capitalist, what is it?

 No.1760784

>>1760021
My theory is that it's a case of non-state actors: not paid agent but Russian patriotic basement dwellers doing their duty to lionize Putin's brave liberation war against the Nazi pig-men. And your right, it does look like bloody shit.

 No.1760794

>>1760672
Too bad they were definitively proven wrong by the USSR not flying apart and backsliding into capitalism.

 No.1760823

>>1760672
There's a (nominally) trot org near me which is pro-China, pro-Viet and pro-DPRK

i almost want to talk to their guys just to see how retarded they are

 No.1760987

>>1760823
>pro-China, pro-Viet and pro-DPRK
>i almost want to talk to their guys just to see how retarded they are
They sound like pretty cool guys to me.

 No.1760998

>>1759977
Lol, love this image

 No.1761163

File: 1707895506594.png (442.83 KB, 1053x588, putintucker.png)


 No.1761187


 No.1761190

>>1760395
we wuz judeans and shit
don't ask what happened to the Canaanites

 No.1761196

>>1761187
>IMT trots call for "down with Lukashenko"
>Opposition are neoliberals wanting to privatise everything and fascists waving the nazi collaborationist white-red-white flag
>Opposition singing Nazi collaborator songs
>Lukashenko comes out at a rally (referring to NATO backed Opposition wanting to ban all languages except Belarussian) that "people have always spoke their own languages in Belarus. Why should we change it"
>IMT lie to the whole world and claim "masses no longer believe in Lukashenko"

Honestly I love that other anon on here that keeps insisting that trotskyism stands for ethnic cleansing, genocide and nazism.
I always thought it was a hilarious troll but I believe it now

 No.1761201

>>1761196
>that third vid
fascists want to pretend to be uwu oppressed so bad

 No.1761203

>>1759101
well to be fair theyre firstoids the only choice of jobs they have is mcdonalds cashier, burger king cashier or walmart cashier lol

 No.1761270

>>1760114
That's a variation on the Hitler drinking water argument. Just because you can replace names doesn't mean that the argument is invalid for one or both cases. Also, Khruschev's revisionism can be explained in concrete terms such as wasting people's money, failing to pay war bonds, failing to pay development bonds - because all the myriad different projects that have replaced stalinist projects turned to be failures, and people who were un-repressed by Khruschev and put in charge of those projects turned out to be either wreckers or retards, and Khruschev getting deposed after a series of uprisings where people rose up with the slogans like "turn Khruschev into meat" - because shops in USSR somehow managed to stop selling meat at a scale of Stalin's time.

While to prove Stalin's supposed repressive regime you need to believe fucking Goebbels and Nazi scum to start imagining Holodomors, gazillions shot in purges and that USSR under Stalin lied about it's statistics just because. And then you have to superimpose the reality of post-Stalin's USSR onto Stalin's USSR

 No.1761275

>>1761270
Don’t forget that little detail where he actively tried to starve Russians to death through his “virgin lands campaign”, and all over…drumroll please…Ukrainian nationalism! Anti-communism always comes back to the same few roots

 No.1761276

>>1760057
Soviets were waaaaaay more pragmatic in such efforts than Putin was. Just look at Putin trying to negotiate with the West, and then look back at Stalin gigachad who maneuvered USSR so fucking hard it resulted in Fascism getting butchered, Europe half-red, and China full-red. Stalin, unlike Putin, didn't believe Westoids' promises even for one second. No peace negotiations ceasefires, no half-measures, concrete demands to the other side, and threats and force behind those demands. Oh, Brits want to keep alliance talks with USSR going just to stall for time while Hitler grows stronger? Why fuck you, brits, we'll just Molotov-Ribbentrop and get ourselves a non-aggression pact with Germany, last in Europe to do. By the way, this thing about pacts is also never brought up in Trotsky's writings, I wonder why

 No.1761285

>>1761276
>no half-measures
what about Berlin?

 No.1761422

>>1761275
>Don’t forget that little detail where he actively tried to starve Russians to death through his “virgin lands campaign”, and all over…drumroll please…Ukrainian nationalism!
These are the same mfs who accuse Trots of peddling Nazi propaganda lmao.
>>1761270
>That's a variation on the Hitler drinking water argument. Just because you can replace names doesn't mean that the argument is invalid for one or both cases.
Then all you're saying is that the Trots were premature in their pronouncements but that their predictions ended up coming true anyway. Again, what MLs say about the USSR from 1953 onwards is identical to what Trots were saying in the 30s. Right down to seething about "deliberate starvation" attempts, using party discipline mechanisms to repress "real communists" etc etc. You just don't want to admit that the distinction between the two is superficial at best, and ceased to be relevant after Stalin died.

 No.1761425

>>1761422
Why is the fanbase of a good leader always way more fucking annoying and whiny and just plain stupid in comparison to their idol?

I like Stalin. I do not like Russian MLs who try to paint Khrushchev as this ultra-Judas figure.
I like Trotsky. I do not like Trotskyists who hate on Stalin needlessly.
I like Mao. I do not like whatever the fuck Gonzalo was doing to the babies in Peru.
I like Jesus. I do not like most Christians.

 No.1761431

>>1761196
<IMT: The masses hate Lukashenko! They hate Belarus! Time for da revolution!!!111
Meanwhile, in reality, the average Belarusian worker:
>You support privatization? Go on television and DEBATE AGAINST LUKASHENKO you bitch! Fuck off and go back to America!

 No.1761472

>>1761422
>their predictions ended up coming true anyway

<if we come to power, we will destroy USSR!

<see what we did?!?! Our predictions came true!

That's how it reads

 No.1761473

>>1761285
It's like Taiwans' little islets off the coast of China. It would have worked like that, if not for Khrushev and Brezhnev. Like what, imagine living in West Berlin and seeing prosperous socialism with better prices, better job opportunitues, better amenities, better everything. West Germany would have been OFFERING to take West Berlin, hoping that the other side would take those dissenters away, since they'd give so fucking much troubles in internal politics

 No.1761480

>>1761422
>if you don’t like Khrushchev you’re a Nazi!
Stunning intellect from sabocat as usual
>>1761425
Might as well add that you like Hitler and Churchill to that list since you want to be a fence sitting little coward so badly

 No.1761491

>>1761480
Great man theory is anti-Marxist. Those who jump to defend literally every single action carried out by a figure and who choose to blame everyone else around them when things go wrong and who are unwilling to admit any mistakes whatsoever are theologians dipped in Red paint; not genuine socialists.

Trotsky was correct on the necessity of a fast industrialization as well as setting up popular fronts with socdems to stall out fascists from getting strong enough to attack the USSR.

Stalin was correct on realpolitik compromise such as lifting the ban on religion, ordering the Chinese communists to collaborate with the KMT, and temporarily allying with Germany to buy time.

Khrushchev was correct on the necessity to improve light industry as opposed to constantly focusing on heavy industry, as well as his acceptance of zones/spheres of influence and peace with the West post-WW2 in order to integrate the new countries into the Soviet bloc as well as to recover from the devastation of the war and also in intervening to put down rebellion.

There are tons of ideas and policies that all these figures were 100% correct on in hindsight. But in today's retarded political discourse, to support Trotsky means you must hate Stalin, or to support Khrushchev means you must hate Stalin, or to support Stalin means you must hate Trotsky and Khrushchev etc.

it's so tiresome.

 No.1761492

>>1761472
trotskyists ran the ussr? when?

 No.1761501

>>1761492
Literally when Khruschev came to power. He let them out of prisons and restored to their positions, claiming that repressions weren't legal and giving them amnesty. Say,agrarian policies associated with Lysenko - digging irrigation channels, planting tree shelterbelts, spending money on improving existing farms instead of creating new ones, etc - were replaced with disastrous virgin lands campaign. Lysenko opposed that campaign, and he got thrown out and replaced by some repressed fucks. Also, Brezhnev was one of functionaries who supported virgin lands campaign and worked there. Belarusian swamps draining, which also was an overall failure, happened at the same time. People who did the 1936 population census also got reinstalled back to their positions. That's just off my head, you can look at present day famous Russian liberals' families and there's like a 95% chance that they came from repressed families who suffered under Stalin and got showered with recognition under Khruschev and onwards. And they were party members, too!

 No.1761502

>>1761480
>if you don’t like Khrushchev you’re a Nazi!
In didn't say that. I'm saying that you lot (mostly correctly) point out that most of the accusations against the USSR during Stalin's administration are absurd Nazi propaganda, and you mock Trots for believing it so easily. But as soon as Khruschev takes charge you repeat nearly identical anti-communist accusations. Sorry m8 but as far as I'm concerned any accusation that the Soviet government deliberately starved anybody is Nazi propaganda until proven otherwise.
>>1761472
Trotskyists never came to power in the USSR. They predicted that Stalin's policies would lead to the emergence of an unaccountable bureaucracy that would undermine socialism and they were correct.

 No.1761507

File: 1707934414575.png (91.75 KB, 800x409, communism peak.png)

>>1761501
>Khruschev and Brezhnev were Trotskyists
Wow so you're telling me that Trotskyists led the USSR to the peak of its power and prosperity and brought about the zenith of the communist movement? Wtf I love Trotskyism now.

Picrel: actually existing Trotskyism

 No.1761508

>>1761501
ok so trotskyist is just "anyone i don't like"
cool

 No.1761652

>>1761507
>Trotskyists led the USSR to the peak of its power and prosperity

China broke away, Western labor movement died a slow death due to repudiation of Stalin, supporting bourgeois Egypt more than socialist Vietnam, letting porky to infiltrate Eastern Europe so much they constantly had some kind of insurrection, when cars for export had incomparably higher quality than for internal consumption, etc etc. Like what the hell, Khruschev backpedalled on defending Cuba and left them to largely fend off for themselves, and by the end of that period, USSR's foreign policy, when it wasn't USA stirring trouble directly on USSR's border, was to ally with porkies against Iran, Iraq, or hell even Kampuchea

Peak of fucking power, my ass, when USSR had the peak of it's meat and milk production during Stalin's times. When growth rates became so low that people called the period stagnation. While Stalin could say a thing, and foreign workers in imperial core would start manifestations in his name, when he could pretty much dismiss and appoint heads of communist parties across the globe with his authority alone, post-Stalin USSR had eurocommunists and trots occupy everything and play against USSR

It's fucking humiliating how USSR went from being independent and self-sufficient country, both agrariculturally and industrially, into more and more of a junkie on the world market. So fucking much that USSR started to vacuum cleaning East Europe's dollars and enforced dollar system on comrade nations

>Picrel: actually existing Trotskyism


Picrel: Stalin's liberation of Europe, Mao's liberation of China, African national liberation movements which flip-flopped from Soviet sphere of influence into American one and back, and Vietnam, who miraculously won despite USSR arming Egypt that wasn't in a state of war 4 times more than Vietnam, so China had to pick up all the slack

 No.1761653

>>1761508
No, trotskyist is an opportunist. Haven't you fucking read the thread? Just look at Trotsky himself: he was crying about bureaucracy, but was the most bureaucratized fucker out there, creating so much paperwork for subordinates that they hated him.

 No.1761655

holy great man theory

 No.1761660

>>1761655
This.
>Western labor movement died a slow death due to repudiation of Stalin
The absolute state.

 No.1761662

Maybe we should just wordfilter "Trotsky" to "Satan" since with how some people here refer to him you'd think he was the Prince of Darkness incarnate who seemingly does evil for the sake of it

 No.1761666

>>1761662
No, Satan's too cool

 No.1765554

The amoumt of SEETHE a simgle man can cause is actually impressive.

 No.1765566

>>1761652
All false. Also, funny you mention China helped Vietnam, when it was the contrary

 No.1765573

>>1765566
Two points. First, Dien Bien Phu was only possible via assistance by Chinese advisors and logistics troops. Most infamous was the Vietnamese use of direct fire artillery hidden in casements. This was learned from PVA experience in the Korean War, and was a mockery of Western-Soviet artillery doctrine, but it completely ruined French artillery operations and caused the head of French artillery to commit suicide.

Second, the very presence of China and the desire to avoid a second Korean War guaranteed North Vietnam’s sovereignty, which allowed the VPA and VC the ability to conduct their guerrilla war. Moreover, the Chinese sent massive amounts of aid to the North Vietnamese, to the extent that the North Vietnamese were effectively a Chinese proxy.

That said, the Chinese eventually turned on the Vietnamese in 79, because the Vietnamese decided to pursue a Soviet alignment, and likely committed atrocities in that war.

 No.1771272

>>1760138
did the widely acclaimed speaker, writer, journalist, and political analyst Caleb Maupin write this?

 No.1771303

File: 1708744198146.png (784.03 KB, 1920x953, download.png)

>>1757979
yawn, more mcleninist opportunism

 No.1771331

File: 1708748244677-1.mp4 (20.7 MB, 720x900, CIA and media.mp4)

>>1765573
soviet assistance to vietnam trumped chinese aid by the late 60s. they were firmly soviet-alligned and financed well before the cambodian incidents, despite earlier fence-sitting à la
the dprk.
>Vietnam […] likely committed atrocities in that war.
says who, american press in 1979? vietnam is possibly the only socialist country that is impossible to smear without coming off as a butthurt vet/arvn emigre because a) they're still around (albeit things have changed but the 'historicopolitical continuity' or whatever you want to call it remains) and you can interact with them as much as any 'normal' country; and b) they have a very clean record that has only ever been disputed by now forgotten, then-contemporary pre-internet reporting of the 'cuban rapes reported in angola!!' variety. in other words, literal heresay and cia planted stories which filtered through local news to be reported back at home as if they heard it from them. vietnam committed as many atrocities in cambodia as they committed in liberating saigon: that is to say, fuck all. no rapes, no pillaging, no extrajudicial killings.

 No.1771346

>>1765573
Don't forget that China taking Taiwan-held Hainan island prevented Americans from enforcing a blockade

 No.1771462

>>1771331

The Chinese likely committed atrocities, I mean.

But the Vietnamese struggle for independence was basically possible only because of China’s presence and aid. Yes, perhaps the Soviets sent more materiel, but it was the threat of Chinese overt intervention that stopped the Americans from crossing the border, it was Chinese advisory presence that enabled Giáp etc to go from guerrilla operator to Frog-eater, and it was Chinese logistics troops that kept the North Vietnamese supplied with Soviet and Chinese aid.

Of course, while Vietnam’s destiny was primarily achieved by the Vietnamese, we have to realize it was a combined effort by the entire Communist bloc that quagmired the United States and brought the capitalist powers to quiescence for the 70s as the US reeled from its failure in Vietnam.

 No.1771630

>>1771462
>The Chinese likely committed atrocities, I mean.
apologies.
>Of course, while Vietnam’s destiny was primarily achieved by the Vietnamese, we have to realize it was a combined effort by the entire Communist bloc that quagmired the United States and brought the capitalist powers to quiescence for the 70s as the US reeled from its failure in Vietnam.
agreed. my main contention is with people who try and push the 'la chinoise' narrative re: the soviet/eastern bloc contribution in southeast asia.

 No.1771796

so how's the party doing now?

 No.1771850

File: 1708802890217-0.png (13.55 KB, 474x172, getfiscal.png)

File: 1708802890217-1.jpg (1013.88 KB, 1920x1920, GDGiS70WcAASTTI.jpg)


 No.1772701

Ser ut som samma gamla liberala bögskit. Studenter bör inte ha någon ledande ställning i ett parti.

 No.1772713

>>1772701
tat piano

 No.1776680

File: 1709079677975-0.jpg (278.96 KB, 2048x2048, 20240227_191903.jpg)

File: 1709079677975-1.jpg (194.05 KB, 1082x1082, 20220125_194016.jpg)

Instructions unclear. Accidentally got into BA and joined a cult instead.

 No.1777657

>>1772701
studenterna kan få en liten representant, som en belöning


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