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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators
Sorted by last name
>Paul Cockshott
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)
>Elena Veduta
http://www.strategplan.com/en/about/veduta.php
Various videos on YouTube but no channel of her own
>Dave Zachariah
https://www.it.uu.se/katalog/davza513
One video on Paul Cockshott's channel

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
>>1650427
106 posts and 20 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 

File: 1716076681769.pdf (19.07 KB, 255x170, time.pdf)

>>1858730
Here is timing information from no later than May 2020, no GPU because numpy doesn't support GPUs, a five year plan for a district of 10k enterprises. Let's assume the fastest DDR4 at 25.6GB/s per stick, 4 sticks, memory-bound. Assuming there exists a PC with a 102.4GB/s memory controller, in six seconds about 0.6 terabytes of data could have moved, / 4 for float32_t = 150Gfloat, theoretical, at most. I'm sure these districts can be composed into a second, whole-world planning run. I don't think it's necessary to consider the scarcity of computing time as a pretext to play around in C but if you can write CUDA nobody will turn down your contribution

 

>>1858728
> you pay for that memory safety in decreased performance however, which is unacceptable in many applications.
> This moron has never heard of Rust
Rust has to copy a lot of stuff, needs to initialize everything, everything ends up being in an Arc<RwLock<Mutex<Box<dyn FearlessConcurency>>>> if you dont have 10+ years of experience wrestling the compiler with lifetimes…

Rust is one of my favourite languages, but what i write in Rust, for peak performance, is not idiomatic nor memory safe, and for that it's easier to use an unsafe by default optimized language like C++.

I don't see Rust stealing C++ or CUDA's spot for high performance computing, maybe it could steal a bit of Java's for mid-high performance stuff.

 

>>1858728
> you pay for that memory safety in decreased performance however, which is unacceptable in many applications.
> This moron has never heard of Rust
Rust has to copy a lot of stuff, needs to initialize everything, everything ends up being in an Arc<RwLock<Mutex<Box<dyn FearlessConcurency>>>> if you dont have 10+ years of experience wrestling the compiler with lifetimes…

Rust is one of my favourite languages, but what i write in Rust, for peak performance, is not idiomatic nor memory safe, and for that it's easier to use an unsafe by default optimized language like C++.

I don't see Rust stealing C++ or CUDA's spot for high performance computing, maybe it could steal a bit of Java's for mid-high performance stuff.>>1858728

 

Oops i posted twice, there were delays

 

>>1858799
>maybe it could steal a bit of Java's for mid-high performance stuff.
i dont think fintech bros are gonna learn rust. Golang is a far more likely candidate

 

>>1858805
>materialism is when you quack opinions in a confident, businesslike form
No more sperging until you answer >>1858744 and tell us why exactly your need to do work that has been automated out of existence should take up any time on the agenda. Lurk until you have ported https://github.com/ssamot/socialist_planning to C and know what you're talking about

 

>>1858721
interesting. but that GPU example doesn't look so impressive, a mere 57x speedup from 16k cores is 0.35% efficient. probably useful for high-level ||ism doe
for HPC, C+MPI is likely to remain king
>>1858728
>Absolute retarded nonsense
I suggest you actually familiarize yourself with C. nothing says you have to compile it down to unsafe code. it can just as well run as a REPL with bounds checking etc
>This moron has never heard of Rust
Rust doesn't solve the issue of bounds checking costing time. as >>1858800 points out you have to use unsafe code for that

 

>>1858988
Bound checkimg isn't really an issue 90% of the time. Just use iterators

 

>>1858988
just graduated with a fucking bachelor's in computer engineering and I don't know what any of this shit means. what a stupid fucking waste of time and money

 

>>1859079
iterators help, yes. but even Java has been shown to have OOB issues. relatively recently it was shown that its quicksort implementation breaks when using arrays of size 2^31 or so
claims about security are nothing but feels if they're not backed up by formal proofs
>>1859084
>just straight up admitting to being a junior dev

 

>>1859084
You're not missing much. What we have here is a classic case of angel-pinhead theorizing and some sperg trying to make other people play his autistic games with him.
Hide, ignore, etc.

 

>>1859095
And? Nobody said that memory-safe languages are 30.000% bug free, but by virtue of being memory safe, be it with static analysis or runtime checks, they straight uo eliminate entire classes of bugs, much like C prevents accidentally overwriting registers that you need the values of with side effects compared to handrolled ASM

 

>bunch of "cybernetic" nerds who think USSR could've avoided its disintegration had there been advanced computing system
Unreal stuff, lmao.

 

>>1860146
its not just had that happened but whether or not the political will was there to make it happen. Bottom line is by the late USSR a bunch of the leadership already basically gave up on socialism anyway

 

File: 1716339509803.jpeg (170.15 KB, 1080x602, stfu lib.jpeg)

>>1860146
>implying it could've been avoided without advanced computing systems

 


 

>>1862179
China did it

 

>>1862248
The Chinese bourgeoisie overthrew proletarian rule and chose capitalism with socdem characteristics.

 

>>1862345
Reddit

 

>>1862347
Here's your L

 

>>1862248
yeah, by liberalizing. but also it retains a planned sector as I understand

 

>>1862248
china also sided with america and threw the soviets under the bus to save their asses.

 

whats the best thing for a young leftist to study either formally (university) or on their own to help with cybersocialism if the moment arrives?

 

> just graduated with a fucking bachelor's in computer engineering and I don't know what any of this shit means. what a stupid fucking waste of time and money
It's technical and specific domain engineer speech, if he spelles out the acronyms i think you'll somewhat understand

 

>>1864080
Information security and defence at a free university.
High profile ones have the best people in the world that aren't working for a secret service.

 


 

it should clearly be run in a blockchain. no i dont mean a blockchain also used for currency. i mean one meant for
>guarantees of reliable results through parallel computation
>not tons of it, but enough
>arbitrary scalability through being able to join the blockchain and compute things very simply
its amazing that software engineers would trust some random C program.


https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_ReflectionsonTrustingTrust.pdf

 

>>1866470
thanks anon

 

>Planning and development economics

 

>>1866509
trusting trust is an issue for all languages, not just C

 

>>1866509
>he hasn't written a symbolic debugger in assembly language
Filthy casual

 

>>1867207
someone already posted this here: >>1866470

 

>>1866509
it should also be said that there is a process for bootstrapping gcc from an extremely simple hex monitor called hex0 that the user can write themself:
https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/blob/master/POSIX/x86/hex0_x86.hex0
https://bootstrappable.org/projects.html
https://bootstrappable.org/projects/mes.html
>Since October 2019, Guix bootstraps by using MesCC—the small C compiler that comes with Mes—to build TinyCC, which is used to build GCC 2.95.0, which then builds GCC 4.7.4.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0
>A class of minimal bootstrap binaries that has a reproducible build on all platforms. Providing a verifiable base for defeating the trusting trust attack.
stage1 has code that looks like this, with single-character labels (:3 and @5 below):
# ;; First pass function
# ;; Reads Tape_01 and creates our label table
# ;; Will Overwrite R0 R10 R11
# ;; Returns to Main function when done
# :first_pass 8a
:3
42100100	# FGETC ; Read a Char

# ;; Check for EOF
E000A0100000	# CMPSKIPI.GE R0 0
0D01001F	# RET R15

# ;; Check for and deal with label (:)
E000A030003a	# CMPSKIPI.NE R0 58
3C00 @5	# JUMP @storeLabel

# ;; Check for and deal with pointers to labels
# ;; Starting with (@)
E000A0300040	# CMPSKIPI.NE R0 64
3C00 @6	# JUMP @ThrowAwayPointer

the thing works itself up to being able to assemble a simple C compiler written in 4399 lines of assembly
maybe it's possible to make a C REPL instead. that might be shorter

 

btw, regarding the bounds checking discussion, tcc has such functionality built in:
https://bellard.org/tcc/tcc-doc.html#Bounds

 

>>1867314
nice find anon

 

>>1867329
thinking about it, while it may seem like a purely academic concern, it should also be useful when bootstrapping new architectures. I see some riscv code in there for example

 

>>1867207
thanks for posting this anon

 

>>1864080
python and soldering iron

 

>>1881581
>soldering iron
maybe learning about server hardware would be better anon.

 

People can imagine luxury space cybercommunist punk utopia easier than they can imagine the end of capitalism :))

 

>>1881861
How would that not be the end of capitalism you insipid troll?

 

>>1882495
Try getting another one of ur brain cells working and you can probably infer what I'm saying

 

>>1882992
>>1881861
I'm kindof with that anon. You can't really have cybercommunism (or any type of communism) without ending capitalism.

so… that doesn't make sense.

 

>ERP is either going to be C-like or Python
But why not a functional language? Feels like doing shit loads of maths while avoiding machine-operating code is what functional languages were designed for?

 

>>1883019
Functional languages aren't good for numerical analysis. The point of functional languages is that they operate at a higher level of abstraction and make people more productive per line of code. They aren't supposed to be efficient in terms of execution speed or memory use. Look at the original classic languages where Lisp for example (functional/multi paradigm, dynamic, slow/memory hog, safer) sits on the opposite end of the of the spectrum from C/Fortran (fast, low level, efficient, unsafe). Functional languages like Scala are better for data analysis/engineering.

Functional languages almost by definition have no ability to pass by reference or implement algorithms that modify values in place. Look at clojure, a functional lisp on the JVM, even though due to being compiled to bytecode they have about the same execution speed (though some overhead makes clojure "slightly" slower) clojure ends up taking 2/3x more memory if not even more, despite the heroic efforts of the language creators.

If you want to use a functional language most languages like Haskell for example have a C interface (FFI). and use C/C++ libraries for the heavy numerical lifting.

 

>>1882992
I want to see you actually justify one of your idiotic one liners for once.

 

Economic Planning for the Future: An Interview with CibCom

The Marxist Project

 

File: 1718642331684.jpg (115.02 KB, 1500x843, pepe du bois.jpg)

>>1887804
Pepe with the Disco Elysium Visual Calculus painting in the background

 

>>1887804
Very cool video, i liked the part where they discuss why market socialism will inevitable lead to capitalism in less than 10 years. That is extremely fast. A strong argument against socdems and market socialists.

 

>>1887863
it's likely based on pdf related


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