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Excuse any bullshit that I may say involuntarily, please correct me if needed (I say this to avoid useless chatter in the form of reproaches that lead nowhere). I am going to refer mainly to western countries, knowing that in other contexts, the same would not apply. It is clear that the shift from industrial-based capitalism to financial capitalism (from now on, FC) has also determined a shift in socio-economic relations on all scales. Specifically for this post, the shift I want to focus on is women's place in the workforce and its access to higher education, on the one side, and the disintegration of the family structure on the other, the latter being a more specific FC phenomenon than the former. In parallel we have seen in the last decades the phenomenon of gender non-conformity, queer identities and etc. I dont want to defend nor attack this phenomenon, but I do want to point out that this latter shift in gender must have something to do with the previous ones mentioned and others one could consider, especially in relation to FC, as more than one may have already noticed. I see that much explanatory work could be done on the gender non-conformity phenomenon by relating it to the disintegration of what Hegel called ethical life and commonly referred to in sociology as community (Gemeinschaft as originally put by Tönnies), regardless of what one thinks about its value on top of that.
I would like to see your opinion on this connection from a strictly sociological-economical and historical point of view, since I see this topic treated mainly in the form of ideological and ethical discourse, mostly degenerating in worthless platitudes that reflect the personal prejudices of the sides involved more than anything else, needless to say.
BTW does anyone know any books on this specific connection? I have researched and found nothing on the matter.
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>>1854853>le neofeudalgood fucking lord
>>1854853>A return to heavy industry would reverse things by making work more "masculine" in aesthetic.Profoundly wishful thinking: You'll find plenty of Lesbian Furry factory workers if you look hard enough. Working all day in a factory in no way precludes a feminine digital idenity during your off time - indeed, if you're tired from hard labour spending all day online is going to appeal a lot more than the extra exhertion of going fishing!
>>1854860lesbians arent exactly feminine
but what i wil say here is that many immigrant women work in warehouses, which gives them a "hardness" that differs from the polished environment of retail.
But my point is how the bourgeois pretensions of the west still depend on this obscured object of the global material base. Like, we can be free in our identities, but at the moment, this is still refrained within the tension of our imperialism.
>>1854858yes, literally. Ever heard of the housing crisis?
>>1854864I think its funnier when political correctness forces people to become essentialists
>>1854856>understand that the division of labour is also a fact of any economyThe status quo is not an argument. Eternalizing relations of production is the sign of a fascist. Political economy is something to abolish, not to "improve" or some other reactionary idea.
Anyway, you're using the term "division of labor" in several ways at once. First, the distribution of the members of society among the different kinds of production, which is material and valid. Second, the idea of any private or exclusive rights in that distribution, which is idealistic and invalid.
>and this division assorts people in different waysYou're about an inch away from talking essentialist crap. Which assortments are not fully determined by the relations of production, even if their ends ultimately are.
>the factory floor is not the same as the field or the forestWhile you were out jacking off over fascist propaganda, Lean Manufacturing happened. So did DoorDash. Your need to reify the English system of work is reactionary. Cattle and criticism in the same day is perfectly well possible.
Let me repeat: it is a mental illness to celebrate self-abnegation. If you are imagining that any of your personal ambitions are a "gift" to society for which you should be recognized, you need meds.
>I like the public squareNormalize physical violence toward liars and manipulators and Hobbesians, and I'm in.
>>1854931just sounds like i used one of your trigger words now youre sperging
I dont even know what your issue is
and the contemporary economy requires specialisation and division of roles. Times have changed, so we deal with new circumstances, or are you ahistorical?
>>1854934>Times have changed, so we deal with new circumstances, or are you ahistorical?saying this after making a retvrn post and calling capitalism "neofeudal" lol
>>1854936i called financial capitalism neofeudal
and what "retvrn" did i invoke? i just said changes in culture can be traced by changes in production, so reverting to the old ways would change things back. I never said we should.
>>1854853All the blue collar gay men working in manufacturing and junkyards say hello lol
>>1854941exceptions to the rule prove the rule
>>1854853>>1854934>and the contemporary economy requires specialisation and division of roles. so we deal with new circumstances, or are you ahistorical? Times have changed,Yes, times have brought DoorDash, and they might well bring that to industrial labor. Times are produced by our own actions, and they can be produced differently. This is the whole BASIS of the Marxist conception of history, friendo, not some Fichtean contemplation of the eschaton and uncritical acceptance of what capitalism hands us, why, and whether it will be so in the future.
Look, Edvarg. All hero societies are liar's societies. No amount of tough, clipped vocal affectation will ever bring back your childish traditions. Set them adrift in a burning boat and let them go.
>>1854946so whats your point? We should get rid of industrial labour?
My point is that this thinking is imperialist by just exporting these jobs overseas or creating a segregated class of industrial workers in the first world
but if im misreading you, then correct me
>"le gender" thread gets triple-digit replies
Never change, /leftypol/.
>>1854401>>1854402You sure about that?
>>1854382Doubt. I think its more that its more socially acceptable for peoppe to be trans so the otherwise stigmatised invisible demographic is now allowed to express themselves.
Also, teenage rebellion is terrible misunderstood.
People think kods having their own trends is "rebellion" when its not.
>>1854559This is the one aspect thats overlooked.
Most people think fertilising and incubating cumshots in the uterus is the definition of childrearing.
>>1854953>so whats your point? We should get rid of industrial labour?Yes, we should drive SNLT down to zero and automate every demand on disposable time that is fit to be automated.
>this thinking is imperialistNo worker, no exploitation.
The vast majority of labor needs could be deskilled to the point where all workers are effectively temporary. Many already consist of adding raw material, removing finished parts, and minor accounting. As SNLT is reduced, labor dispatching becomes a lot more flexible via such as a temp model, and one's history in a seat isn't as important a qualification for that seat.
>>1854962>People think kods having their own trends is "rebellion" when its not.Right. The Western religion's obsession with perfect ideological reproduction is well served by that hypersensitivity to deviations from perfection.
It is true that individualistic societies tend to institutionalize the individuation process. Anglo-Saxon world society does it by making pop culture irritating to people who were conditioned to it 20 years ago. What kids grow up with, be it AutoTune, vapid lyrics or forms, unfamiliar EQ, whatever else, the previous generation finds technically unlistenable or unmusical. Also, by modeling teen rebellion in media, the resistance supplying parents with an opportunity to exercise dominance and condition their own culture on the child.
>>1855018>By getting rid of manual labor, we will have automation which will work entirely by magic! >It isnt as if though automatons need repair or replacement on occasion!>It isnt as if though lack of manual lavor will make us dumb, weak , and lazy!!!>Its not as if though indusyrial labor isnt just slaving away in slop-making factories>>1855019People say society is youth oriented.
Yet I find more spiteful/patronising remarks or referemces to youth than to elderhood.
>"You know how I can tell a teenager is lying? When their lips are moving."
>"Youth is wasted on the young".
>"Kids these days have no respect".Alot of the spiteful age-rekated remarks towards youth are more cliche and yet people will say it word-for-word as if though it was organic.
>>1855047why u defending manual labor over automation in a post-socialist society? u even read marx?
>>1854853We need more beefy hunk factory oily sweat muscle men so I can jerk my ftm roid clit, agreed.
>>1855081You think automation means lack of manual effort. I dont oppose automation.
But I do oppose the impression of automation as a permanent work break.
Again, the more automation there is the more maintence there will be.
>>1855085yuck.
fetishizing roided out jocks?
No thanks. Lean muscle is better.
>>1855088ill be real it doesnt seem like that was the point u were trying to make. dont think anyone was arguing automation was a permanent work break, just that it wld reduce the amount of manual labor which wld have 2 be performed. thats the whole point of automation. u can not retvrn 2 ur idealized grizzly factory men, nor should u make compulsory manual labor in2 a vision of utopia which u already know u cant predict (whole thing w/ marxism). thats just regressive
>>1855094Im not opposed to automation. but I am aopposed to people who think its gonna be an overall replacement to manual labor in essential areas.
In fact if everything is automated it wouldnt eliminate industrial labor.
It would would reallocate manpower to machine repair.
Even Marx would understand that.
>>1854518>Nothing has actually changed, honestly. It's all a huge nothingburger. All of this gayness was already known to exist in the 1950s via the Kinsey reports on human sexuality, it is simply that people are more open about it and more willing to define themselves based upon the handful of homosexual experiences they've had.Kinsey was a child abuser that had paedophiles molest babies to push his retarded "humans are sexual from birth" theory
His reports were almost exclusively prison inmates that he pretended was representative of US society
>>1855103Every Christian parent is a child abuser. Nobody cares how you feel about dead people you mentally ill woke drama queen.
>>1855123
Normalize the forcible surgical sterilization of all fertility cultists
>>1855123
based and hwyte genocide pilled
>>1855123
i kneel
>>1855123
baiterald
>>1855279Normalize mutilating the genlitals of fertility cultists
>>1855284If you breed too much white pussy with your BWC your cock get crushed and your balls deflated eventually.
>>1855284>>1855258Natalism is lowkey anthropological narcisissm.
>>1854853wtf is this mumbo jumbo?
I read a theory that gender identity shit has taken off to a certain extent because of online cancel culture panopticon shit. Your sexual identity is one of the last things young people feel like they have control over and so they exercise that control.
>>1855637That seems less like soc media panopticon and more that the opportunities and surplus capital for young people in the post WWII generation dried up.
>>1855637The logic is backwards: the expression of their identities is an internalisation of their existence as both a commodity (labour) and a consumer.
They are being sold their identities back to them. They have no innate existence of their own, they are simply the result of a secession of the traditional gender roles.
If you want a deeper irony: the socially conservative values of the 50's overlapped with the definite existence of a welfarist democratic system. Why then, after the dismantling of this system and a redistribution of wealth towards the dominant social class, has the logic of this political subjectivity (the gender system) flourished?
>>1855284I bet if you hooked up fathers to a machine that made them feel what childbirth is like they would elect to follow a one child policy.
>The phenomenon in OP is tied to sexual identity, which is itself a new phenomenon. "Deviancy" existed before, but only in the form of acts. E.g. there was no homosexuality (identity), only sodomy (an act). For this reason you cannot find any laws that criminalize sexual identity (the person rather than merely an act) before the modern era.
metaphysical af statement
>>1854853If I went back to the kinds of jobs I worked before transitioning I would get fucked with, men would have weird interactions with me where they treat me like I'm, at best, a cute moron, and at worst they find out I'm a transhumanist and bully me because they feel threatened by it/their religion dislikes it.
The jobs I have worked since I can get people fired if they openly use slurs against me so of course I'm going to end up away from heavy industry shit. Do you not understand correlation or causation? I would be fine and very competent handling dangerous tasks with heavy machinery because I'm trained and competent at such and society's irrational hatred of transsexuals is its loss.
More and more of my life has been seeing people who are worse at things than me pretending that they're more competent than me because I'm a femoid
>>1855095>Even Marx would understand that.Marx says that labor value would cease to be usable as a theory when automation reached high enough of a point.
>>1855694that's what whores get for listening to the snake
>>1854308I don't buy the premise outright, but if it's true, then good! Gender isn't much more than the enforcement of undesirable/extra labor onto women (where it is more than that, it's the culture built up around these practices, both affirmative/coping with and resisting). Gender nonconformity is refusal to give free labor to reproduce the working class (or enforce such a system), when capital should be shouldering that cost. Good for the queer kids.
>>1855777From the arms of one tyrant and into the other. Good for queer kids!
>>1855777>when capital should be shouldering that costpb moment
I doubt we have the data to reliably answer OP's question. but I will point out one thing: the greeks were homos
>net worth of families under 35 is barely above $1000
grim
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