>>1859189I dont want to shit on popular soup kitchens, but the idea its the way to revolution is just wrong. It worked a building support when socialists where the only ones doing it, porkies and government have long coopted those efforts, mainly through welfare and ngos
>>1859225>It worked a building supportYou're not the fucking Party Chairman, drop the 50k bourgeois vibe dispensationalism shit and don't even open your fucking mouth without
* a material condition
* an identification of its preconditions
* a plan to disrupt the preconditions in the proletariat's favor
NO INVESTIGATION - NO RIGHT TO SPEAK
>>1859164>PPW works in urban contexts tooppw doesnt work at all
>>1859189>you've got a better chance of a PPW type situation arising from orgs like Food Not Bombsyou are retarded and dont understand what ppw is
>>1859270>revolutions are run for the "ratings"In what idealistic world does incremental public sentiment have fuck all to do with constructing revolutionary operations? You're going to have to draw an actual, material nexus between the two in *absolute, material* terms, not the relative, idealistic solipsism of the Western progressivoid managerialist.
>>1859164> PPW works in urban contexts too. How?
> Urban PPW is being proved.Where?
>>1858866>Where does this come from in your opinion?Mostly the cold war rivalry where every communist clique was falling over each other to claim to be the one true marxism and that all others were ineffective degenrative spawns of satan, so you should definitely support them and do exactly as they did, because they did it, didnt they?
>>1859189Please please please read this with your cell
https://kites-journal.org/2020/12/22/malcolm-x-didnt-dish-out-free-bean-pies/You have an absurd, ineffective, self-destructive view of this entire tactic. The only thing you're going to achieve doing what you propose is burn up your clique doing charity and being very simplistically undermined by the state.
>>1859225>>1859227>>1859270>>1859321you too
>>186015199.99% of "dual power" and soup kitchens and the like being done by the current movement in the first world is ineffective and actively hampers the movement.
>>1860154So called "terrorist" groups, as the imperialists like to call them, are what we should imitate. They show how to organize resistance and control territory in extremely adverse material and military situations. A modern communist party that has yet to seize power will look identical to Hamas or Hezbollah. One that has seized power over a state will look like Yemen.
>>1860161actual glowie holy crap
>>1860164You may not like the conclusion but this is the truth. You are welcome to argue against my thesis.
>>1860168theres no point in even learning terrorist bullshit if you havent even swayed the working class to communism in the first place. you are nowhere near a civil war even
>>1860170I don't mean that we should learn from the military activities of these groups, at the same time, those are worth studying and using when and if the time is appropriate. But how to do violence is not the important part.
The more important thing to lean is how they are organized, how to maintain leadership over a group that is constantly being targeted by your adversaries, how to recruit and train new members, how to obtain money and materials. These groups give important lessons on all of the boring logistical operations that determines if your organization lives or dies. And they give lessons learned form operating in the harshest environments, often at the cost of human lives. It would be foolish to ignore their experience.
>>1860164>actual glowie holy crapNor really retard, Hamas and Hez exactly built dual power. Again, Legit retard.
It's wild to call charity bullshit then praise Hamas, Hamas literally started as a charity organization
>>1860168>>1860161Hamas is a power that was able to form a defacto government in a small territory not much more than a concentrationcamp. It was brought to power party by the very zionists that now seek to destroy them, because the provide a casus beli for any and all attacks against palestinians, and provide no way to victory due to its tactics.
Hezbollah is a militia on religious grounds supported directly as a foreign agent by Iran, Yemen similarly.
They did not and do not implement forms of socialism. At best, they are nationalistic liberation fronts.
The model of insurrection on the edges of the periphery is by definition not applicable to 90% of the world. A communist insurrection is extremely unlikely to be supported by a foreign power that exists right now, and the one time it did sort of happen (Rojava) half of the communists lost their shit because they worked together with a great power in the moment.
It is not a real viable strategy for general use, and I advice you to read the article, because it also goes into why places that are defacto governments have different duties with regards to "serving the people" than non ruling groups.
Perhaps there will one day in the next two decades be a place where communist rebels on the edges of the pherifery can rise up and gain support from a great or regional power as a pawn against another great power, but that is unlikely. China has shown itself fully unwilling to support any insurrectionist or combative governments, even though there are several groups active in its neighbourhood that could serve such a function. Iran, Turkey, Russia and the US are unlikely to support a communist insurrectionary government in anything more than the very very short term, as they are not alligned ideologically and form a long term threat to their own stability in the region.
All the groups you listed are ideological extentions to a large degree of Iran, they are regional partners with similar ideals, goals and interests as Iran. The PFLP is not supported for that same reason, their goal is not the imposition of Iranian economic/Shia muslim coalition dominance over the region.
But aside from how idiotic it is to apply the tactics that work in the margins of world power control to the rest of the world, it misrepresents how Hamas, Hesbollah and the Houthis came to power. They did not come to power by starting with soup kitchens, they started as an armed group, wrengled control from the chaos, and then used the existing power vacuum to adopt the traditional role of the state, namely charity/taking care of the people.
Read the article I posted, it goes into great depth. Charity itself is not a road to power, it is something a group in power has to do. Starting with charity is like buying and burning fuel before you have a car.
>>1857892US state is way too powerful for PPW to work, wtf anon lol. There's a simple reason you have both more narco terrorists, crime, and guerillas in south america.
It's because they have weaker states. The US has an independent judiciary, an EXTREMELY well funded network of law enforcement and intelligence agencies, and a draconian legal system which routinely sentences people (especially racial minorities) to decades in prison. 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison population. There are five times as many people incarcerated today than there were in 1970.
Even organizations like the US-sicilian/italian mafia which in the mid 20th century were untouchable in recent years have been infiltrated and its members imprisoned. Whether its gangsters, communists, or civil rights/protest leaders, the fact is the US state and its agencies have had a literal century of practice in infiltrating these groups and breaking them up or arresting their leaders/members and even if they aren't doing anything illegal they try to pull some agent provocateur shit.
The fact is that the US State is and has been extremely powerful, but now that its losing its external power and influence on the world stage its starting to turn those techniques inwards (even more than it did before). I don't think the US will go socialist until it suffers a loss of its empire, internal collapse, and accordingly the US petit bourgeoisie and labor aristocracy loses its wealth and the superprofits of imperialism are no longer enough to fund as strong of a security state, exactly like what happened to the fall of the british empire.
To defeat the US state you have to defund the US state and that can only happen when US imperialism is defeated.
>>1859321that is exactly what communist parties in the West draw upon though.
Maoists are mentally ill. Maoism is a form of brain damage.
Revolution, like any other kind of warfare, is 90% logistics, what the fuck do you think actual mutual aid networks are building? Logistics.
>>1859225>t worked a building support when socialists where the only ones doing it, porkies and government have long coopted those efforts, mainly through welfare and ngosIf you think our country's shitty welfare programs do anything for anyone but a very small minority of people struggling, then I can only assume you've never had to struggle at the level where you need to get help from one of these orgs. Bro fell for the capitalist PR hook line and sinker.
>Perhaps there will one day in the next two decades be a place where communist rebels on the edges of the pherifery can rise up and gain support from a great or regional power as a pawn against another great power, but that is unlikely. China has shown itself fully unwilling to support any insurrectionist or combative governments, even though there are several groups active in its neighbourhood that could serve such a function. Iran, Turkey, Russia and the US are unlikely to support a communist insurrectionary government in anything more than the very very short term, as they are not alligned ideologically and form a long term threat to their own stability in the region.
<In the fight for complete liberation the oppressed people rely first of all on their own struggle and then, and only then, on international assistance. The people who have triumphed in their own revolution should help those still struggling for liberation. This is our internationalist duty.Stop waiting for China or some other country to save you and do some work yourself.
>me listening to communists argue that mutual aid is counter-revolutionary because improving people's material conditions makes them less likely to be revolutionary
I have a friend
they don't know shit about Marx, communism, theory, nothing
they are what I call a "vibes leftist", an anarchist without knowing what that is, if anything
what do they do? coat drives, food drives, community lunches, event organization, community art projects, all types of shit like this
A revolution, like any other kind of warfare, is 90% logicistics
This person knows their community, knows who's in need, knows the most disenfranchised people, and is building their community further
This person, despite having zero theory, is more revolutionary than a large amount of supposed "real" communists
people like this are why I much prefer the company of anarchists
Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is the Highest stage of Marxism, with Maoist PPW being the only viable praxis to actually achieve Socialism (their are currently ongoing Maoist PPWs in India, the Philippines, Turkey, and Peru), with the caveat that
Maoist PPW is not viable under the current Material conditions of the Imperial Core, meaning that Left-Liberals/Social Democrats (ie. Leftist Democrats) should be critically supported as a “Lesser Evil” to Fascists/Reactionaries/Theocrats (ie. Christian Zionist Nationalist MAGAtard Republicans), just like the Sino-Russian Imperialist Bloc (ie. China, Russia, Iran, the Socialist States of Cuba and the DPRK, etc.) should be Critically supported as a Lesser Evil to U$ Imperialism Worldwide, though if/when Bourgeois Liberal Democracy is abolished in the U$ and a Fascist Theocracy (probably under a Trump dynasty) is established, which will implement Project 2025 and seek to throw all Leftists, LGBTQIA+, Feminists, Union Workers, Muslims, Homeless people, and Undocumented Immigrants in Concentration Camps, along with Invading Iran/Mexico, Authorizing/completing the Final Genocide/Annexation of Palestine (in order to rebuild “Solomons Temple” with the goofy ass Holy Red Cow sacrifices), and waging World War III with China (they will be forced to Invade Taiwan after the U$ decouples all trade with them), then the only viable Praxis Worldwide (including in the Imperial Core) will be Maoist PPW, with the inevitable Global Nuclear War destroying the entire Global Capitalist-Imperialist System (including the U$, EU, China, Russia, the Zionist State, etc), thus allowing for a World Maoist PPW to place the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World on the Shining Path to World Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇵🇸🇮🇷🇸🇾🇱🇧🇾🇪🇮🇶🇨🇺🇻🇪🇷🇺🇧🇾🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>1860595>>1860610I don't think they're building logistics, but I think you're right that mutual aid is what we need more of in order to have strong logistics. Most mutual aid is re-branded charity and not actually mutual. Mutual aid within active communist social structures, though, would address logistics
Second, I agree that community building is a necessary component of building revolution, but I think it's backwards when community-building is made primary (either as something we have to do before we can move on to higher forms of organization, e.g. education, agitation, collective action, etc., or as the main tactic to employ). Ultimately building up networks in an apolitical and class-agnostic way is not going to help our ability to have our own politically charged, surveillance-resistant, strictly proletarian networks. So anyways I propose a decentral version of party-building as the alternative to class and class-war agnostic community building. We should be building up networks, with mutual aid, but in a way that defends our future success, which means organizing in a way that can withstand fascist violence and eventually overthrow the state. That requires some attention to clandestinity and compartmentalization, as well as an internal culture that is fully mobilized towards liberation, which requires a pro-political, pro-intellectual, pro-community defense (aka revolution and violence), pro-class, etc. 'common sense'. Building up networks of people who take care of each other is good because it helps us here and now, but it's like building sand castles for houses, they'll just be swept away in the next wave of bourgeois offensives. Like the model is more or less right, the instinct is right, but there's not enough theory and knowledge of the state and history in there (and often because this kind of practice is related to an anti-political outlook) to make this at all revolutionary. It's just darning the intentionally ripped social fabric, not realizing why it was ripped up or how to stop the person who did it from doing it again, but knowing that what is good is for the social fabric to be dense and strong. It's a correct instinct but it's at the same level of "let's vote for the less bad person".
>>1859189can confirm
t. knows
>>1860330Yeah yeah. I think the anti-imperialist movement and ending the genocide is the single most effective thing first world communists can do. Hell, it's also just the single best thing you can do per person overall worldwide because everyone suffers immensely from war and imperialist military dominance, and the only ones who gain from first world military dominance are…… like 10 people
>>1862208>t. knowsdisagree
>>1857915>when it has a 0% success rate outside [country of historically particular conditions]You're thinking of the October revolution of 1910s imperial Russia mate.
PPW has been successful Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, Nicaragua and Nepal and Afghanistan since China, just to the few I'm aware of (I know there's additional ones, in Africa among other places).
>>1860610>>me listening to communists argue that mutual aid is counter-revolutionary because improving people's material conditions makes them less likely to be revolutionaryTell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didnt read the article.
This is why anarchists never achieve shit, they refuse to even read good faith critique by other communists who do similar things to themselves and then say they would rather talk to socdems at infinitum than work with serious people.
what is PPW?
>>1860595>If you think our country's shitty welfare programs do anything for anyone but a very small minority of people struggling, then I can only assume you've never had to struggle at the level where you need to get help from one of these orgs. Bro fell for the capitalist PR hook line and sinker.Read the article, you lazy cunt, it addresses your delusions in great depth.
<In the fight for complete liberation the oppressed people rely first of all on their own struggle and then, and only then, on international assistance. The people who have triumphed in their own revolution should help those still struggling for liberation. This is our internationalist duty.
>Stop waiting for China or some other country to save you and do some work yourself.China was helped by the USSR, Vietnam was helped, Laos was helped, Nacaragua was helped, Nepal was helped. Cuba was the only communist PPW-like scenario that was not actively assisted. Afghanistan is not communist (and also they were armed by the very people they then beat out over decades). Hamas and the Houthis are being assisted, if you want to rope them into this.
History has shown that PPW does not succeed without assistance. You eternal china cocksucker reply of "china did it, why cant you, you cant demand anything from china, you lazy foreigner" is inane and historically inaccurate.
If you want to win, make strides, rather than just burn out your comrades or worse, get yourselves killed with no hope of winning, then make an actual analysis of history and your current tactics based on that history and the powers at play. The easiest way is to read the things people have already written and see if it makes sense. Such as:
>The article written by someone who has been involved in "mutual aid" for a long time and seeing how it was undermined historically and currently>Actual third world maoists screaming at first worlders that PPW doesnt work in states with strong central states and high urbanization and highly developed production and long supply chains.
>>1862442Protracted people's war, the most successful tactic for national liberation in under the imperialist stage of capitalism.
>>1862450>Protracted people's war, the most successful tactic for national liberation in under the imperialist stage of capitalism.The issue is that most of the world doesn't need a national liberation but a liberation from capitalism.
>>1862454Good luck defeating capitalism with it having its neocolonies strengthening its core via superexploitation all over the world.
The point behind PPW is that it is the easiest way to weaken capitalist imperialism, by hitting its "tendrils" and thus also gradually equalizing the domestic balance of power between the classes within the NATO countries, making a successful "first world" proletarian revolution more likely.
>>1862460>Good luck defeating capitalism with it having its neocolonies strengthening its core via superexploitation all over the world. My brother in christ how is 90% of the world going to wage a national liberation war in the few places outside of their own country and nation? Nevermind that most pheriphery don't have oppression based on nationality so they cant even wage a national liberation war since they're not occupied.
>>1862444>USSR was so glorious it willed Nepalese overthrow of monarchy into existence after its collapse!This is what dialectical materialism looks like!!
>>1862461Make India a DotP, threaten capitalism terminally.
>>1862466This but unironically.
>>1862467>Make India a DotP, threaten capitalism terminally.India can't have a national liberation was since its being ruled by its own national bourgoiesie with Modi as its head. The Naxalites aren't making substantial progress and aren't spreading nationally.
>>1862469Nobody is saying the working class or the communist movement is winning currently anywhere except the delusional. Though what needs to be done and capitalism imperialism's weak spots should be fairly obvious.
Or let me put it this way: your beloved labor aristocracy won't join in and risk losing loved ones while fighting to the death their bourgeois until they start feeling some of the hurt that make the global south industrial proletariat and poor peasants join jungle militias, launch colossal strike waves and industrial sabotages on a daily basis - that is done by starving off the imperialist bourgeoisie of its globally situated circuits of capital that is facilitated via superexploitation under this present stage of development (imperialism).
>>1862472>Nobody is saying the working class or the communist movement is winning currently anywhere except the delusional. Though what needs to be done and capitalism imperialism's weak spots should be fairly obvious. Thats not whats being discussed, you illiterate third worldist retard.
PPW can only happen in specific places, it isnt universalist. 90% of the world can't do shit with PPW, you cant wage PPW in most of the world, even most of the pheriphery.
PPW is a tactic to be used in the global struggle against capitalism, it isnt the end all be all. And your retarded turd worldist hate of anyone who happens to be born in the imperial core, which is a large part of the global proletariat, is only sabotaging the efforts to find, discuss, figure out and apply tactics that work in the imperialist core.
Neck yourself.
Does someone have a BRICS pacifier?
Baby cryin:
>>1862476
Reminder that both India and Philippines are English-proficient and that a western communist reverse brain-draining with their overeducation would be very beneficial.
>>1862477Explain to us how PPW is going to be a tactic than can be applied by anyone not living in Yemen or Palestine ATM. Lets go with some variety of examples: Argentina, Germany, South Africa, India.
Hard mode: Don't repeat the line "lazy westoids wants xyz group to do all the work", that is actually what you seem to be advocating, a lazy fucks position of cheering on third world revolutions on the edges, talking themselves into inaction because "nothing can be done where I live", hoping the third world proletariat saves you. Wake up. China, Vietnam, Laos, aren't going to save you, or any of us. So explain how your beloved PPW is going to save people living in those countries I listed if you claim its a universal strategy.
>>1862480Beneficial to who?
The fascist modi government who wages war against maoists?
Or the fascist filipnes government who wages war against maoists?
>>1862481Your frustration seem to hinge on the unfounded misinterpretation that I ever advocated for the universality of PPW, which is especially confusing considering I only ever spoke of India or Philippines, neither of which have overcome semi-feudal neo-colonial status.
We are speaking in English on a largely English-speaking communist imageboard and so your example countries are not relevant.
>Wake up. China, Vietnam, Laos, aren't going to save youNever said this and never believed this.
Also look at the OP again. They never claimed that PPW was universal either, and
> I don't see any other groups out there engaging in confrontation with the forces of my county.is open to interpretation - it just says MLMs are on the forefront in their country.
>>1862482To the communist movements there obviously. Is no anon able to argue without attacking strawmans here anymore?
>>1862485>We are speaking in English on a largely English-speaking communist imageboard and so your example countries are not relevant. What the fuck are you talking about, you dumb yank? Do you think anyone who speaks english only live in the english sphere or something? Answer the fucking question and stop backtracking. The entire thread is about how PPW isnt being waged in countries like the USA despite it being supporsedly the god given tactict that has a bazillion percent succesrate.
>>1862486Maybe make more substantiated statements than "move to <non communist poorish country>". Explain how a high education is going to benefit the maoists in India and the Philipines or how its going to benefit the MLs in india. Because it just sounds like BRICS developmentalist nationalism otherwise.
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