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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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The fundamental leftist critique of religion is that religion lulls the masses into complacency with promises of a better life in Heaven and an assurance that the Earthly order is ordained by Providence and, on the flip side, recognition of the falsehood of religious belief will cause the masses to undergo a radical re-evaluation of the world, the way it is organized, and their relationship with their fellow man. But here in 2024, and in the Western world, is this still relevant?

Let's look at the first claim. Is the largest or even significant ideology keeping the masses in line the promise of a better life in Heaven? Do the actively religious actually believe that the world order as it is established now is the product of divine providence? I would say that obviously this is not the case and hasn't been for a while. What subdues the masses can vary from country to country, but at least in America (and increasingly around the world) it is not the promise of Heaven that motivates the masses to stay in line, but the promise of earthly reward. The "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" attitude has long been an aspect of the American ideology, but I would argue that it has moreso and moreso taken on the religious aspect of maintaining social compliance. First you had Horatio Alger stories which generally portrayed a "rags-to-riches" narrative based on young men engaged in some kind form of good works to rise above the poverty while benefiting their community, which then turned to Ayn Rand's stories which rejected outright any greater social responsibility of the industrialist tycoon, instead portraying them as pseudo-divine "Great Man" figures for which all the industry and wealth of the world was merely an extension of their great personalities and any attempt to direct or interrupt their great works was to invite disaster upon the world, for the world needs the entrepreneur, the entrepreneur does not need the world. This is further developed by the "self-help" movement that began to take off in the 70s, where often men of wealth would give advice on how to get rich to the masses, but this "advice" was almost never about making shrewd business decisions or actual ways of acquiring capital and business deals, but a litany of all the supposed morals and examples of virtuous living the wealthy supposedly possessed. And then, finally, to top it off we have "The Secret," a bestselling novel which posited that it is not simply being a great personality and having great virtue that makes one rich, but also one's mentality. To get rich, you must quite literally have faith and piety in Capital and all problems can be solved essentially with a secular version of prayer. And flagrant nonsense though it may be, it has nonetheless integrated itself into into the greater Cult of the Entrepreneur. There's now tons of media of wealthy people spouting this exact ideology, giving examples of how they live their lives in virtue and always remember to say their prayers to capital. And, in spite of the complaints of the "retvrn to tradition" people, the otherworldly look of the abstract and minimalist designs of most modern homes and luxuries of rich people really adds to this effect. Unlike old manorial style homes, these new properties give the impression that the wealthy have not simply gotten rich, but are no longer of this world and have ascended to Elysium. And it's this ideology that appears to have captured the imaginations of most of the proletariat who refuse improvements in their own real lives in the modern day. They're not coaxed with promises of an honored place in the afterlife, but with the promise of an ascension into an earthly paradise. The "I don't take too much stock in this world because my treasure is in Heaven" types are an absolute dying breed, even among the religious and this has taken its place (even in religious communities in the form of the "Prosperity Gospel"!)

There's also the question of if people will have any kind of radical re-evaluation of the world once they lose their religious views, and I would once again say that this has been fairly debunked even as recently as the last decade after the NuAtheists all became a big gaggle of reactionaries. As it turns out, "Nature" can be a perfectly adequate replacement for God in the reactionary worldview. The world and everyone's place in it can very easily be trumped up to supposedly self-evident natural laws rather than divine providence, and in some ways I would argue that this is even more oppressive than the divine order. The order of the world being mandated by Heaven still leaves some wiggle room. After all, Heaven has enemies and who's to say that our earthly powers aren't actually in league with Hell? Nature, on the other hand, is immutable. To claim that the order of the world is natural is to claim that it is as set in stone as the law of gravity, of the wind and the tides, of the setting of the sun in the west. And what's more, not only have the NuAtheists of the Aughts become reactionaries, guys like Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher are even massive Zionists. I guess the fact that God doesn't exist doesn't mean He didn't give the land of Israel to the Jews! So what was the the refutation of religion even supposed to change in these people if it doesn't even inoculate them against Zionism?

The problem with engaging in all of this is that we are simply acting as toadies for secular liberalism. Among many secular liberals, religion is used as the sin eater for liberalism's failures. Religion is portrayed as the evil seed from which all reactionary thought grows and is the perennial reason why liberalism continues to fail to live up to its promises, continues to push for ever crueler policies both at home and abroad and why its in a slow collapse. A certain brand of secular liberal points at religion when they don't want to acknowledge that the calls are coming from inside the house. And we don't need to cape for the liberals and uphold their delusions.

Religion is in many ways a vestigial and dying institution, at least in the West. I cannot remember a time like now when even the supposedly religious have just thrown aside any pretense that they were ever motivated at all by their supposed religion, where reactionaries pushing religiosity have just openly said that they're doing it cynically because they think that it will somehow uphold the social order they want. They almost never even have a reason why they think pushing their particular religion will uphold any particular social order beyond "the past was more religious than now." I think critiquing them on religious grounds is giving them credit they don't deserve. Its to imply that this is all about some transcendent and spiritual worldview when its clearly not. To be blunt, ever since Trump rose up as a political force, I haven't been able to take the religious right seriously as a religious movement and I don't know why other people humor them.

It's giving the liberals support we shouldn't be giving them and showing the right a form of respect they don't deserve.
92 posts and 17 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 

>>1859569
>ASL? You sound like you haven't had a US history class yet.
I only said I had a few ideas to talk about the protestant make up of the US. Of course I took a US history class

 

>>1859498
slaves don't produce surplus value? plus slave owners don't economize on their slaves time and have therefore less an incentive to automate which is why the Romans never had an industrial revolution, a ton of their labor was free already.

 

>>1859576
>slaves don't produce surplus value
Of course they do. Everything they produce on top of their costs of ownership and reproduction are produced (from society's perspective) by the master, and quite a bit more of it than people who have to be given the trappings of society in order to encourage their reproduction.
>plus slave owners don't economize on their slaves time
Wut, if anything, slave owners extract the most possible time from the slave, just as capitalists do. One difference is in the lesser reproductive needs of the slave, whose production is separated from their (usually accelerated) consumption as labor power by the slaver, but the worker has been given the additional task of not only reproducing himself as a worker from day to day, but also producing his replacement. After Britain closed the Atlantic slave trade, US slavers tried breeding their own, but it wasn't profitable.
>therefore less an incentive to automate
That's a presentist take. Also the steady improvement of the cotton gin over the period suggests otherwise. Automation doesn't need an "incentive" (that's just a a word neoclassicals use when they want gibs). It needs material conditions, and bourgeois finance is not material. Neoliberals are the ones who like to talk about "incentives" and all that crap.
>which is why the Romans never had an industrial revolution, a ton of their labor was free already.
Or, lacking precise time-keeping equipment, they just didn't appreciate the particularly capitalist idea of surplus time?

 

>>1858718
When someone says "i dont believe in god literally, i believe in voodoo archetypes and symbols" theyre saying they dont believe in god. Peterson has said before that god is the ideal fiction and that the logos is what kant would call "the understanding" (the transcendental preconditioning of our subjectivity by Reason), but "god" forbid peterson read any popular philosophy to make his points clearer.
Someone asked him once, "if every human dies, is there still a god"? And he couldnt answer it. A christian rebuttal would be about providence, that such a hypothetical couldnt happen in the first place, which i find acceptable. But peterson's open-mindedness is his own closed-loop of obscuranist excuses.
His life-mate jonathan pageau has basically identical feelings on the matter, as do many so-called "orthodox christians", like scott mannion. Its all fluff.
>cain
he is borrowing from the masonic temple legend, where all "masons" (craftsmen) come from the line of cain, which is recoded biblically. But this is giving too much credence to "the left" in the first place. Cain represents scientific progress, but are the left "scientists"?

 

>>1859640
Slaves dont produce surplus-value since they themselves are commodities. They are like machines or animals so are fixed capital, not variable capital, which is what makes surplus.
To marx also, machines dont produce Value since tautologically, they only produce as much as what they cost to produce. The property of machines is to make human labour more powerful by expanding commodity-production, but this has the hidden side-effect of lowering the rate of profit, since profits are the surplus divided by the cost of production (s/C). This is part of why capitalists cant just enslave people, since it would be converting all of their variable capital into fixed capital, and thus eliminating profits.

 

>>1859695
>This is part of why capitalists cant just enslave people, since it would be converting all of their variable capital into fixed capital, and thus eliminating profits.
You're absolutely right on the economic details. Mea culpa.
>why capitalists cant just enslave people
I suppose they have generally shifted from chattel slavery to penal slavery instead.
<Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

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>>1859489
>large parts of the US were essentially semi feudal (sharecropping in the south) until the mid 20th century as previously enslaved blacks were turned into indentured tenant farmers for the next 100 years after the civil war.

can attest, my mom's dad was black/indigenous and grew up sharecropping in North Carolina in the 1940s. It was so miserable he ran away from home when he was 15 and joined the military with the help of his uncle by forging documents. He ended up in the Korean war and got PTSD.

 

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>>1859715
>>1859489
>sharecropping means semi-feudal, duh!
When Marx referred to large English estates as 'semi-feudal' was due to them being monopolized by aristocrats rather than sold freely as commodities, plus the backward means of cultivation, even when wage-labor was utilized. Yet English capitalism was still fully developed, even back then.

 

>>1859719
> being monopolized by aristocrats rather than sold freely as commodities
the planter aristocracy kept the majority of their land after the civil war

 

>>1859723
Again, the term is related to productivity and scale. Even Lenin's address to the Second Congress of the Communist International mentions the prevalence of 'semi-feudal' forms of cultivation in large parts of 'highly developed' capitalist nations such as Germany.

 

>>1859715
>>1859489
>>1859719
>>1859723
>>1859727
Taking this opportunity to also bring up that countries that back then were much worse off than even the shittiest countries of today got called 'developed' and even 'imperialist' by many socialists, including Lenin.

Bulgaria was called a 'land of small production' in the ComIntern reports, dominated by peasants and petit-bourgeois elements. Clearly, if such a backward country was already termed imperialist by Lenin (that too not just once, he said it again in 1915) it should make those who think imperialism is something special that only a handful of countries are involved in reconsider their stances.

In addition, Lenin also termed Japanese capitalism 'equally predatory' as American capitalism, despite genuine feudalism still existing there which was removed only in the 1950s after the American occupation, labor productivity in Japan being very low, being an agrarian society. E Varga in 1924 even calls Japanese capitalism 'fully developed', while Voytinsky just two years earlier in 1922 had reported it as being a semi-feudal society dominated by an aristocrat clique.

 

>>1859732
So, politicians don't stop being professional liars under any color of political economy?

 

>>1859739
thats why we need direct democracy

 

>>1859740
It is far more effective when voters are properly informed in the first place, however.

 

>>1859825
This is what every lib says.
>you should only be able to vote if you agree with me
I agree, but i also dont pretend to be a democrat

 

>>1859826
I don't know about direct democracy as a first resort. The less that social decision making operates like a contest, the better decisions will be made and the less opportunity for division will arise from them. The plebiscite is definitely an important backstop, in those cases when no other satisfactory resolution can be reached, but generally I prefer something closer to unanimity criteria wherever the people are developed enough to handle them.
As for political structure, I like councils where councillors or delegates are commissioned for the duration of the session, and have no power to act outside the instructions duly given to them by their constitutents.
Anyone who supports bourgeois competition as a truth device should face the wall for that alone.

 

>>1859830
How can a national issue ever be unanimous?

 

>>1859834
Nothing worth fighting over is worth fighting fair over.
And besides, the less superfluous production of commands in the world, the better.

 

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>>1859654
As far as I'm aware, Peterson (and presumably other Jungian psychologists) believes that human psychology is largely driven by these "archetypes" that are real personalities with real lives that live in the human collective unconscious and largely form human psychology. I'm pretty sure they believe that these archetypes (like Cain and "The Father") more than just ideal fictions, but are essentially real people that live in our heads and are expression and form through things like popular fiction and religion and mythology.

So, once again, I'm fairly sure he believes God is "real," but that he's essentially a "real" person who lives in our heads.

 

>>1859732
>Japanese capitalism 'equally predatory' as American capitalism, despite genuine feudalism still existing there which was removed only in the 1950s after the American occupation

Japanese Feudalism mostly died with the sakoku period and the meiji restoration corresponded with an industrial revolution.

Japanese capitalism developed differently than british because it was mostly state driven as whole industries were developed by the state and then sold off to the feudal lords/daimyos who simply became the new capitalists. In that sense the old Daimyos kept their wealth but that doesnt mean it was feudalism.

As for the american occupation breaking up feudalism the closest thing I can think of that you're referring to is them breaking up the Zaibatsu/megacorps but thats not anti feudalism its anti trust.

TLDR, for the most part Japanese feudalism was done by the late 19th century already.

 

>>1860006
Right, so God didnt create the world, he is just a symbol.

 

>>1860301
It's a slave mark.

 

>>1859335
Dogmatic Marxoids assume that history progresses in stages each characterized by a mode of production which acts as a base for an ideological superstructure. This Darwinian model of human social evolution has long been debunked. You won't find a sane archaeologist or anthropologist today who'd support it and it contradicts all the empirical data we have available. Historical materialism is idealistic because dogmatic Marxists always put the cart before the horse and never work their way back from actual empirical evidence.

We're told tribal relations are characteristic of primitive modes of production but then how does the Marxoid explain the fact there are tribal structures in developed capitalist economies? We're told that modernization leads to secularization (the secularization thesis) but how does the Marxoid explain new ageism, cults, the rise of evangelicalism and Pentecostalism in America, or the "spiritual but not religious" trend? Orthodox Marxists traditionally claimed that things like religion and art can't exist in hunter-gatherer economies because there is no surplus and no property, but there's a wealth of ethnographic data on hunter-gatherers that contradicts that. Marxoids (and fair number of us anarchists too) used to claim religion was a tool of subjugation that stifles revolution but you only need to look at the last 40 years to realize how flawed that line of thinking is.

>secularism is simply one of the results of society developing the way it does. It represents the bourgeois class' worldview

Indeed, secularism is linked to capitalism as well as the rise of the West and colonization, but was this a necessary outcome? There was of course a Christian bourgeoisie that promoted a kind of Protestant pietism. So why secularism? Why did secularism win out? Why did the bourgeoisie and the intelligentsia embrace this ideology? That's less of an evolutionary question and more about the power struggles and intellectual battles that shaped modern Europe. Secularism is instrumental for capitalism and a key component of a bourgeois worldview, but such a worldview emerged in a specific place (Western Europe) at a specific time and under specific material conditions.

Societies do not naturally evolve towards secularism. There is no real empirical evidence to support this view but quite a lot of evidence suggesting it is totally wrong. e.g. at the turn of the 1800s significant parts of China and India had industrial economies with capitalist economic relations yet these regions never spontaneously developed a secular culture or anything resembling secularism. So no its not an inherent consequence of how societies developed. Its man made and has a history like all man made ideas.

>not as essential holy eternal truths

Marxists claim class struggle is an essential and timeless truth.

>Trying to approach the world from a position of men having an eternal holy unchanging right and obligation to lead

Like a vanguard party? Lenin, Mao, Stalin?

>The task of the communist party is to elevate the entire working class to the highest level of class consciousness possible, to make everyone able to change history consciously. If the existence of religious people is tolerable today, it is only because the party failed to lift people up to the needed level at this point in time.

Replace 'communist party' here with 'the church' and you get a sentence that sounds very religious.

What human society doesn't have fundamental beliefs it holds to be true? What human society doesn't have a concept of authority and leadership? To claim things like timeless eternal truths or looking towards leader figures is something particular to religious people is a joke, especially coming from a communist who rambles ML schizo babble.

>>1858947
The problem with gallop polls is that surveys don't allow participants to express their actual opinions. They can only pick from a set of fixed questions. So a self-identified Buddhist who thinks Buddhism is a scientifically valid philosophy and not a religion will answer 'non-religion' on a survey even if he has spiritual beliefs that are clearly not secular or atheistic. I've talked to Christians who will insist Christianity isn't a religion and that mainstream churches are false. On surveys, these people will end up being accidentally counted as non-religious. Even if traditional institutional religions are on the decline in America, you see the rise of non-denominational spirituality, individualistic interpretations of Christianity, Buddhism, and new age bullshit. Religion has changed but it hasn't gone away.

 

>>1858009
Nature worship arguably could is fascist.

 

>>1860818
Did you mean that nature worship is fascist or that it could be fascist?

 

>>1860301
No, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. According to this worldview, God isn't a symbol, he's a person, but a person who lives in your head. In fact, he lives in the heads of all humanity and influences our behavior.

In the book Children of Dune, one of the characters explores their genetic memory and meets a bunch of their ancestors who live in their genetic memory and winds up getting possessed by one of them. It's kind of like that except you have multiple personalities and they don't live in genetic memory, they live in your unconscious mind. To my knowledge, that is what Peterson and the other Jungians believe. Peterson believes in God as a real person, not just a symbol, but a real person who is essentially a psychological phenomenon that resides in the collective unconscious, not as an actual omnipotent creator or great cosmic spirit.

 

>>1860440
>You won't find a sane archaeologist or anthropologist today who'd support it and it contradicts blah blah
Show me some examples contrary to historical materialism plox.
Tankyoo

 

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>>1860818
Fascists ultimately believe in standing apart from and rejecting nature, however selectively and conveniently. Even in Darwinism they seek only to emulate it and reform it.

>>1861211
Peterson is, of course, engaging in reification, and (like all worldbuilders) constructing "reality" solipsistically.

 

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if ur not anti religious ur not a scientific socialist, ur a social-pacifist liberast

fag.

sage

 

>>1861214
Just pick up any beginner level textbook on anthropology or history. Marx puts forward an evolutionist stage theory of history e.g. primitive communism -> ancient -> feudal -> capitalist etc. The vast majority of modern anthropologists, historians, and archaeologists reject evolutionist models of human history and the idea of progress
http://openanthropology.org/progressivism.htm

 

>>1861493
>Dogmatic Marxoids assume that history progresses in stages each characterized by a mode of production which acts as a base for an ideological superstructure. This Darwinian model of human social evolution has long been debunked. You won't find a sane archaeologist or anthropologist today who'd support it and it contradicts all the empirical data we have available.
The "evolutionary model" most archeologists and anthropologists reject is the idea that ideas and institutions improve and become more "civilized" over time. They reject, for instance, the idea that religion "evolves" over time from animism to polytheism to monotheism and finally to scientific rationalism, as was widely held in the Victorian Period.

This is not the sort of thing Marx is proposing. He's not claiming that ideas or social institutions improve over time, but rather that production improves and becomes more efficient over time with better materials, improved methods, more efficient organization of labor, new labor-saving inventions and so on. His claim is that human society and its institutions largely form around this mode of production and consequently the mode of production is the most important factor in how a society is organized.

>Historical materialism is idealistic because dogmatic Marxists always put the cart before the horse and never work their way back from actual empirical evidence.

Idealism doesn't mean "bullshit." Its the philosophical position that reality of a product of consciousness, and all the various positions that follow from that (like holding ideas and culture as the most paramount driving force for society)

>We're told tribal relations are characteristic of primitive modes of production but then how does the Marxoid explain the fact there are tribal structures in developed capitalist economies?

What the fuck are you talking about? There is nothing like ancient tribalism in the modern day. If you're talking about a tendency towards cliquishness or clannishness, that is not the same thing as the social organization of ancient tribes.

>We're told that modernization leads to secularization (the secularization thesis) but how does the Marxoid explain new ageism, cults, the rise of evangelicalism and Pentecostalism in America, or the "spiritual but not religious" trend?

Society HAS secularized. Secularization doesn't mean all religion and spiritual beliefs disappear, but that they have an ever-reduced authority in social life and governance, and they have. The Industrial Revolution has absolutely decimated the role of religion in society. I know that to some secularists, religion practically existing at all is intolerable, but it simply cannot be disputed that modern religion is a pathetic shadow of its former self, at least in more advanced capitalist countries.

>Orthodox Marxists traditionally claimed that things like religion and art can't exist in hunter-gatherer economies because there is no surplus and no property, but there's a wealth of ethnographic data on hunter-gatherers that contradicts that.

Who said that?

Even if someone did say that, it's just a dumb take, not the natural conclusion of historical materialism.

>Marxists claim class struggle is an essential and timeless truth.

No we don't. Class struggle is only an essential part of a class society. Class struggle is the fundamental driving force behind class societies, but did not exist in societies without economic classes (such as in primitive communism)

 

>>1868572
Sorry, this post was meant for >>1860440

 

>>1858949
I don't really believe that the "pro-life" movement is genuinely driven by religion except maybe among Catholics (who are a minority and less influential than Protestants). Instead, I would argue that the pro-life movement is driven primarily by petty bourgeois resentment, and justified with religious talk because talking about the souls of the unborn sounds better than saying that you think your lessers have it too good and need to be put back in their place.

Marx mentioned this tendency.
>By counting the most meagre form of life (existence) as the standard, indeed, as the general standard – general because it is applicable to the mass of men. He turns the worker into an insensible being lacking all needs, just as he changes his activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. To him, therefore, every luxury of the worker seems to be reprehensible, and everything that goes beyond the most abstract need – be it in the realm of passive enjoyment, or a manifestation of activity – seems to him a luxury. Political economy, this science of wealth, is therefore simultaneously the science of renunciation, of want, of saving and it actually reaches the point where it spares man the need of either fresh air or physical exercise. This science of marvellous industry is simultaneously the science of asceticism, and its true ideal is the ascetic but extortionate miser and the ascetic but productive slave.

Sex is something that most human beings enjoy and is free, and so in consequently enjoyed equally by the rich and poor alike. And this makes it intolerable to the petty bourgeoisie. The petty bourgeoisie are squeezed between the proletariat and higher, proper bourgeois class and one of the consequences of this is that they are made vaguely aware of the general exploitative, zero-sum nature of capitalist society, but they have a tendency to internalize it as essentially "Emodynamics" from Xavier Renegade Angel and literally believe that the pleasure of their lessers is somehow had at their expense, and stamping out the illicit pleasures of their lessers becomes something of an obsession for their class. It's what drives them to make employees do pointless busywork instead of relaxing during downtime, or insist that prisons be stripped of even the most basic of creature comforts regardless of actual practicality.

And they're fairly open about this. In the immediate aftermath of Roe v Wade being overturned, were they celebrating God's law finally being honored? No, at least not as far as I saw. What I saw was people celebrating the lower classes and people they had social resentments towards (like PMCs and the intelligentsia) no longer being able to freely have sex and if they did, being forced to deal directly with the supposed natural punishment of their transgression. Its only afterwards when they sobered up that they started mumbling about God and baby's souls again.

It's also worth noting that the Bible doesn't actually say anything against abortion. In fact, there's a ritual in the Bible meant to induce a miscarriage.

 

>>1868585
If the rightoids want to eliminate recreational sex, then we will engage in recreational destruction of everything they have ever loved.

 

>>1860297
>As for the american occupation breaking up feudalism the closest thing I can think of that you're referring to is them breaking up the Zaibatsu/megacorps but thats not anti feudalism its anti trust.
It's hilarious that American Market Anarchism gets to pretend to be anti capitalist. Rather than letting productive forces and coordination develop to its highest levels they just break everything back up into a mess and reintroduce "small competition" which they fetishize. Lenin always made the point that nationalizing monopolies was a precursor to socialism. American anti-trust legislation actually saved capitalism from itself just as much as its New Deal. A bunch of scheming oil companies that used to be Standard Oil get to pretend they're no longer fucking up the public just because they go by 12 different names.

 

>>1868592
That's the spirit

 

>>1868739
>Rather than letting productive forces and coordination develop to its highest levels
Actually, I think we'll rape these capitalist stalinfags to death

 

>>1861943
They reject the idea of civilization becoming "more civilized" over time, but this is not what Marx was proposing.

 

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I was just reminded of this old subnormality comic that depicted the "Four Horsemen" of nuAtheism apparently coming to save liberalism and like three of them wound up becoming arch-reactionaries.

 

>>1873911
hmm, was that richard dawkins, jc dennet, sam harris and chris hitchens?

but yeah pretty cringe in retrospect, I too remember when I thought atheism would solve our problems lol

 

>>1873912
daniel dennet apparently, he's the only one who stayed 'progressive' I guess and turned into an uber radlib

 

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>>1873912
>jc dennet

 

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>>1873919
lol yeah probably where my mind got mixed up.

 

>>1873917
Yeah, as far as I can tell he mostly broke into politics to complain about Trump during the last years of his life.

 

>>1873922
well AFAIK he was one of the primary splitters who wanted to create atheism+ and the backlash was too much and he became a hate figure. in retrospect maybe I have a little more sympathy of atheists+ than I had at the time but they were still rampant idpol libs.

 

>>1873923
now what we NEEDED was atheism☭!…

 

>>1861493
Marx wasn't exactly anti-religious himself. He expressed views very sympathetic towards religion, but ultimately believed that rejecting religion would cause people to reevaluate the world around them and reject their current circumstances.

 

>>1873927
>the state as god
The True Atheists™ are way ahead of you.

 

>>1875754
I don't believe that implied the state as god.

 

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