[Last 50 Posts]
I'd like to give my perspective. I'm from a South Asian country. Other than a few brief years I've lived most of my life in my home town, as has my entire family for centuries. I had no problem with the heat and neither did my family. I used to jog in the summer without any issues. However about 4-5 years ago, the heat became unbearable. People in my community have suffered heat strokes, and thousands have already died. The effects of climate change where it starts affecting regular people have happened here, rveryone believes in it, The crops aren't all dead, the oceans haven't sunk cities, but they can feel the pain heat every time of time both day and night and they probably know someone who has suffered from a heat stroke
Now, a criticism I've seen from Westerners is that taking measures to end the painful heatwaves "won't fix the root causes" of capitalism. And listen I know that, but we are in pain here. I'm seeing people suffer as they leave their homes. I just don't see a way in which we can meet temperature goals, and there is no indication that countries are serious about cutting emissions to the extent needed.
Another thirdoid here. Same tbh. My entire lineage has been in the same island for thousand of years, and now i see people of my ethnicity constanly complaining about the absurd heat, the insane weather pattern, etc all the fucking time. They've tried to build reservoirs to contain flash floodings but those don't help one bit. Honestly at this point i don't even mind WEF or World Bank style climate measures if those can even remotely stymie climate change
>>1866038Probably won't work at all.
>>1866053That is a separate assertion from: will we do it or not.
>>1866049>>1866055The thing is, I don't predict it's gonna come from the WEF. It's gonna come from a wealthy Gulfoid billionaire because they are the only retards rich enough and lazy enough to do this
>>1866038geoengineering will be used, and it will be used as a pretext to allow for the continued drilling of fossil fuels
>>1866053Why wouldn't it work? It's a pretty simple concept.
Artificial clouds are very easy to do. Making them can be turned on and off at will.
>>1866073>probably doesn't do shitYou want to have a debate over whether clouds reflect sunlight?
>>1866101I'm talking about cloud seeding you illiterate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seedingAnd no making clouds is not simple at all LMAO. If you can figure out how to do it you stand to make billions perhaps even trillions.
>>1866101>You want to have a debate over whether clouds reflect sunlight?Also you can debate NASA:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/44250/clouds-and-global-warming>Clouds emit energy in proportion to their temperature. Low, warm clouds emit more thermal energy than high, cold clouds. This image illustrates that low clouds emit about the same amount of thermal energy as Earth’s surface does. This is most clearly seen over the Pacific Ocean. The water is nearly white, while the low marine clouds are pale gray, only slightly cooler. This means that a world without low clouds loses about the same amount of energy to space as a world with low clouds.
>High clouds are much colder than low clouds and the surface. They radiate less energy to space than low clouds do. The high clouds in this image are radiating significantly less thermal energy than anything else in the image. Because high clouds absorb energy so efficiently, they have the potential to raise global temperatures. In a world with high clouds, much of the energy that would otherwise escape to space is captured in the atmosphere. High clouds make the world a warmer place. If more high clouds were to form, more heat energy radiating from the surface and lower atmosphere toward space would be trapped in the atmosphere, and Earth’s average surface temperature would climb.
>Clouds impact temperatures in other ways as well. They also reflect energy, shading and cooling the Earth. On balance, scientists aren’t entirely sure what effect clouds will have on global warming. Most climate models predict that clouds will amplify global warming slightly.
>>1866109>This means that a world without low clouds loses about the same amount of energy to space as a world with low clouds.Compelling argument if you live above the clouds.
>High clouds…The proposed artificial clouds to counter high temp are of course
low clouds.
>>1866131 (me)
Also:
>May 30, 2010>This page contains archived content and is no longer being updated.
>>1866131>Compelling argument if you live above the clouds.The point it is has no effect on global temperature.
So you just want localized shade? Well now you really are asking a your country specific question. Nobody is going to come to your country to make localized clouds for you.
If that's your aim you'd be better off installing permanent shades. Trees or artificially.
>>1866136The NASA article compares heat reflection by cloud with heat reflection by the sea. But if an artificial cloud spends significant time of its life over land, heat reflection by the sea is not the sensible reference point.
>>1866242Hombre read:
>This image illustrates that low clouds emit about the same amount of thermal energy as Earth’s surface does.Anyways take a gander at your picture in the OP. Notice how none of those are creating clouds? The only thing they want to do to clouds is get rid of the high ones and trying and make the low ones more reflective. Not make clouds.
I'm Chilean and people here to perceive the increase in heat too but they're so americanized and brainwashed in general that they say its a "natural process of the earth unrelated to glorious #freedom and capitalism".
Its so fucking over for this country.
Can we just switch to an eclectic patchwork of nuclear and renewables? We've known this is what's needed forever
>>1866245>Hombre readTake your own advice. The NASA article is about aggregate effects. And this isn't "my" picture and I'm not the OP and I'm not some ominous "they" who don't want to make clouds. I don't say to randomly make clouds in random spots, so the average aggregated behavior of clouds is irrelevant to the argument. Where low clouds reflect more heat than the ground, more such clouds mean more reflected heat, both locally and for the earth as a whole.
>>1866264You're jumping points. You just said:
>The NASA article compares heat reflection by cloud with heat reflection by the sea. But if an artificial cloud spends significant time of its life over land, heat reflection by the sea is not the sensible reference point.Whether the cloud is over land or sea makes no difference.
>The NASA article is about aggregate effects. So I see you finally learned to read, proud of you, but that has nothing to do with the statement you made before.
<I don't say to randomly make clouds in random spots, so the average aggregated behavior of clouds is irrelevant to the argument.You absolute retard I already acknowledged this:
>>1866136A. It's not possible
B. Even if it was, that has nothing to do with global climate change like you're finally realizing and no one is going to pay for that but your own god damn country.
>Where low clouds reflect more heat than the ground,Oh I see you still haven't learned to read.
THEY DON'T They will shade you but don't reflect more heat off the Earth then ground. I don't know how much more clearly it can be stated.
This means that a world without low clouds loses about the same amount of energy to space as a world with low clouds.Like literally. How can you not comprehend the meaning of the words? If all the fucking clouds in the world disapeared it would actually cool the Earth because the low clouds don't increase the albedo and the high ones trap more heat.
>>1866272>Whether the cloud is over land or sea makes no difference.For this to be true, one of the following has to be true:
1. The earth reflects heat the same way everywhere, whether its a body of water, soil, urban area.
2. The clouds somehow mimic the heat-reflecting behavior of whatever is under them.
Which one do you believe?
If you believe neither, apologize.
>>1866277Bro this is just a fact. It's like you're trying to logic me about whether the sky is blue or not. You imbecile they can see this from space.
>>1866279>Bro this is just a fact.Which one, number 1 or number 2?
>>1866281I see you haven't answered the question in
>>1866277 - sooo, do you believe in point 1 or point 2? Why do you have such a hard time answering that? The question does not look particularly complicated to me.
Clouds can have either a warming or cooling effect, it depends.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page1.php<In our current climate, clouds have a cooling effect overall, but that could change in a warmer environment.And:
<If clouds become brighter, or the geographical extent of bright clouds expands, they will tend to cool Earth’s surface. Clouds can become brighter if more moisture converges in a particular region or if more fine particles (aerosols) enter the air. If fewer bright clouds form, it will contribute to warming from the cloud feedback.The proposed artificial clouds are of course of the bright type.
And:
<most climate models predict a slight overall positive feedback or amplification of warming due to a reduction in low cloud cover.See also:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Clouds<Low, thick clouds primarily reflect solar radiation and cool the surface of the Earth.The proposed artificial clouds are low clouds.
Given that this is what NASA says, how could one disagree with the proposal of these human-made clouds?
>>1866295>Given that this is what NASA says, how could one disagree with the proposal of these human-made clouds?What proposal?
>>1866300<In a world without low clouds, the amount of emitted infrared energy escaping to space would not be too different from a world with low clouds.Most of the surface of the earth is water.
>Using Geoengineering
Blow up Yellowstone, the particulate in the air should reduce temperatures somewhat. Oh and Uncle Sam will probably get fucked.
2 birds with one (yellow)stone.
>>1866262They don't go well together cause an expensive baseload that needs to run 100% of the time approach being economical doesn't work well with renewables, and nuclear is a niche energy source that only some countries can pay for and install. But renewables and storage is the future yeah, and at some point we will have so much electricity it will make sense to use it to run carbon capture plants.
Planting trees is the best way to provide cool shelter.
>>1866526Planting trees is cool but it can't solve literally every problem
>>1866558You can do more than one thing at once if you're not retarded
>>1866564Ok so why are people talking about trees when this topic is clearly about aerosol spraying.
>>1866576>Using Geoengineering to deal with rising heat waves in the Global SouthTrees are geoengineering too. You should see a doctor about your industrialism fetish.
Even if geoengineering is going to be used, which btw has not be tested and will fuck up the chaotic system even more and most of the crap being sold on youtube and 'news' sites are paid startup shit, the problem will continue existing if we dont address the underlying cause.
Meanwhile, there are countless solutions, tested, economically feasible, that arent potentially going to fuck up the whole planet, and are not sci-fi bullshit, but because profit cant be made or because certain interests oppose them, are not being used.
>>1866606What is geoengineering is the massive cutting of trees.
>>1866680Planting them is also geoengineering. You are setting a natural process in motion, right?
>>1866049hautebourgeois globalism save me
I'm from Brazil and these past 2 years have felt unbeliveably hot. Everywhere I go, people complain about it. All my bougie friends live 24/7 with ar conditioning, and my prole friends always have the back of their shirts drenched in sweat. I need to get out of here further into the south. I don't care if people hatecrime me for being northeastern, I just don't wanna get soaked in sweat everytime I leave the house.
Which is insane because apparently the average temperature has "only" risen 0.69C in the last 30 years, is this a heat wave or just mass placebo?
>>1866716How's the humidity?
Triggering a nuclear winter
it can both destroy the capitalist world and provide free air conditioning.
引发核冬天
既可以毁灭资本主义世界也可以得到免费空调
>>1866729Comrade are you actually a Posadist.
>>1866742 It depends on the extent of my aversion to the reality of capitalism.
If my bad mood makes me wish for nuclear annihilation more than Posadas himself.
You know, in the current capitalist world, I'm afraid that the only way to end it quickly is through nuclear war.
But i often think that causing the death of more than 80% of the population is too cruel.
Not everyone can get a Pip-Boy and stay in a vault.
取决于我对资本主义现实的反感程度
如果糟糕的心情会让我比波萨达斯本人更希望核平这个世界。你知道的，现在的资本世界恐怕想要快速终结恐怕只有核战争
但是很多时候我都会认为可能导致大于80%人口的死亡太残忍了一些
不是每个人都可以拿到Pip-Boy待在避难所里的
>>1866716In Dubai, they even had to have bus stops with ACs
>>1866716>>1866719one other aspect is the difference between moist heat and dry heat, In the humid South when the "wet bulb" temperature reaches a certain number, it's literally guaranteed heat stroke or death for even a able bodied fit male if they don't have sufficient cooling. Your body physically cannot cool yourself down when it's that hot and that humid.
>>1866844Shh, let the infrafags set up a rally for stupid and kts en masse
>>1866719>>1866844Fuck, it's 80% humidity here. 60% in the dry months.
>>1866681I never said that, you're just being an imbecile.
Space mirror, it has to be extreme and fast. We don't have time for socialism. The problem is not solved but at least the symptoms will be controlled.
i think one good reason to geoengineer is to stop or slow down feedback loops before its too late, that is only a gauze pad on a deep cut, we would still need further care in form of a giant world wide program to fight climate change,
>>1866748>80% of the populationI don't think anything will make it out of nuclear war, but I think the same goes for capitalism. Advocating for nuclear war has just sort of become a mood for being fed up with pacified liberals and people with views I don't like existing. Or life under capitalism itself with the accumulated sequences of actions and everything ever written on the internet having been stored leading up to a desire for destruction to rebirth. Its a sort of nihilist attitude that it should happen, because if it does then nothing we do and have done would matter and we're about to experience the greatest equalizer as everything else will become insignificant in contrast to it. Every mistake you made, every regret and every potential consequence you could have faced under liberal tyranny and surveillance will not matter when nukes are going off, whoever was hunting you and surveying you will now be crying for their life as the data centers are melted down and the internet becomes eradicated we lose our chains. But I think its easier to just not care and carry on as if nothing matters and as if you're already dead as Nechayev has put it.
>>1868290>will become insignificant in contrast to it.The phrase I wanted to use was shrink into insignificance. Shrink into insignificance.
>>1866748Cringe mentally ill rant. There is nothing more valuable than human life and every must be done to protect it.
>Now, a criticism I've seen from Westerners is that taking measures to end the painful heatwaves "won't fix the root causes" of capitalism
Who the fuck says this? Ever? Did you make them up in your head?
Allegedly some Russians think if they bring back mammoths, they will rampage across actual Siberia and knock down trees to make it more reflective (all snow) and help slow global warming.
>>>/siberia/530193
>>1868830isnt it just easier to cut the trees down though?
>>1868835Mammoths are free once they're there, they don't do stuff like need schools.
>>1868835Mammoths don't need oil and infrastructure unlike forestry equipment.
>>1868302Literally unliveable
>^Fplanning
>0 results
>>1866052>is unable to believe people live outside the first worldanyway OP the real issue with geoengineering isnt that it doesnt "address the root cause", its that all the methods ambitious enough to have an effect are also wildly unpredictable and its not a question of them having unanticipated harmful side effects, its a question of how many and how bad they will be
>>1889661and also the fact that if we were able to coordinate such efforts we wouldn't need those efforts in the first place.
>>1889737Even if we did global eco socialism tomorrow we would still need geoengineering, there's effects that are already too far gone that need to be stopped
>>1889739The point is that you can't have geoengineering without the global eco socialism.
It's cart and horse.
>>1889743I mean I guess but by that logic we might as well not talk about anything because nothing will be fixed unless capitalism ends
>blocks traffic, vandalizes public property
>does nothing to mega yachts or private aircraft
>why do people hate us
>why won't they listen
>>1866748>I'm afraid that the only way to end it quickly is through nuclear war.That or a giant meteor. The real question is how quickly does it need to end? Is climate change that bad? Signs point to yes unfortunately.
>But i often think that causing the death of more than 80% of the population is too cruel.Hard to predict what the death toll would look like, but it's going to be massive regardless. The collapse that happens due to climate change and biodiversity loss will result in mass starvation, probably of billions. So much of the world depends on global supply chain to deliver food, nuclear winter might kill fewer people.
>>1889786>communism is about Spreading Da Good Word Out with individual acts of terrorismAnarcholib moment.
>>1889745>nothing will be fixed unless capitalism endsYes, that's actually how it works. Instead of wasting time picturing The Utopia(tm) actually try to get the proletarian of the world to organize against capital first?
>>1889931>>1889745This is what I was talking about, You couldn't care less about our suffering and death, all you crave is for us to fulfill your delusional fantasies of revolution in nations where the material conditions don't even exist yet
>>1890001How are the discussions of geoengineering any less fantastical when we don't have the organization or governmental desire to enact them? Are we supposed to be doing a Kickstarter to launch orbital mirrors?
>>1890068>Are we supposed to be doing a Kickstarter to launch orbital mirrors?Solar. Freaking. Roadways.
I am truly blessed to own property in Canada I can escape to. Sad to say, but on an individual level, your best bet might be moving to countries far above the equator. It's a depressing state of affairs and every thirdie here has my condolences.
>>1890073Don't worry they'll go to Canada too
>>1868854to be fair a tribe of buryats with axes needs prolly less money than mamoths
>>1890082Siberia seems like a really ineffectual place to do it compared to making somewhere more equatorial more reflective.
>>1866533>picSoviets built their cities with global warming in mind heh
>>1890084grasslands capture more carbon than forests #bringbackamericangrasslands
>>1890107Plant bamboo. it is less picky than trees, grows faster, but provides durable woody goods.
>>1890070>expending labor to encapsulate them ineffectively, instead of suspending them over the roadStupidest grift ever, unless you're DARPA and you're trying to power surveillance equipment somewhat invisibly and indestructibly
>>1889745>>1889739while this is true, its fundamentally different because a proper communist/socialist/DotP governance would be organizing production for peoples thriving, so "geoengineering" would be able to consist as much of rewilding portions of the planet and eliminating wasteful redundencies in production as it would be about magic bullet new-tech solutions. Realistically the term "geoengineering" should refer just as much to planting forests along rivers to control flooding as cloud-seeding etc., but the way geoengineering is currently being talked up and presented is as a way to develop technologies that allow climate change to be mitigated while still organizing human life around profit motive. That would be one thing if there was a reasonable expectation these technological solutions could work and/or would be employed responsibly, but there is no reason to believe thats the case. As the other anon said, if the international coordination and political priorities of liberal hegemons were capable of effectively managing to development and deployment of these incredibly ambitious and incredibly high-risk proposals, they would already be coordinating and prioritizing the wide range of far safer and more demonstrably effective solutions, and these theoretical ambitious high-risk solutions wouldnt be talked about with such desperate hope. But the safe and demonstrably effective mitigation measures would require major changes that challenge the unhindered reproduction of capital, and the world is under a hegemonic regime of capital reproduction. The managers of that regime dont want to mitigate the problem as effectively as possible, they want to mitigate the problem without challenging the underlying logic of capital. Capital will enable genuine mitigation only haphazardly and inefficiently, and ONLY at the approximate rate that the biospheres degeneration endangers the basic social functions that maintain capitals reproduction. The absolute best it can do is keep rough pace, and it is far more likely that instead we will see desperate half-considered failsafe measures that only add to the crises, from cheap contracted sea walls collapsing in hurricanes to cloud seeding inadvertently leading to poison rain devastating crops.
>>1890001>>1889931posting on this site is a form of fuckin entertainment, if you are such a devoted revolutionary you wouldn't be here
>>1890188What do you even mean? Yes, Four Pests Campaign was a product of vulgar materialism, an inherited modernist assumption that parts of the environment can be singled out and manipulated to benefit production without serious ecological consequences. The massive geoengineering projects OP is referring to are following the same logic as the Four Pests Campaign. The difference is that the PRC was doing it for the sake of developmentalism while these projects are now being proposed for the sake of the maintaing continuation the fundamentals of the circumstances of capital reproduction.
Marxists need to reorient away from the 20th century modernism, and apply that ambition for improving the world to an understanding of the biosphere not as simple raw materials to be developed but as an enormously complex circuitry. The metabolic rift between capitalist society and the biosphere is rapidly closing, and unless there is serious effort to understand the metabolic processes of both capital and the biosphere, the closure of that rift is going to create a world most struggle to live in at all.
The US is working on technology for carbpn capture and sequestration with algae that is reasonably efficient and cheap, about 45 dollars per ton. There's a total of 950 billion tons of excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, meaning there's about 50 trillion dollars worth of carbon dioxide to be removed, which, over 30 years, is affordable at about 2 percent of GWP.
Good luck ever getting the political will to do it, though.
>>1891930>geoengineering will certainly be necessary to deal with the climate catastrophe, but it won't happen in capitalism unless it results in a sellable commodity.geoengineering will happen as a result of money changing hands between oil companies and politicians, and will occur alongside further fossil fuel extraction
A few days ago my niece had a heatstroke and thankfully she's fine. But basically everyone I know is going through something similar and most of them are all upper-middle class, so the whole 'the rich can just ignore it' narrative is out of the window. They feel it every second, from the moment they wake up, especially the adult men who still have to work
single nation can do geo-engineering on their own, I think it's inevitable that some nation facing a climate disaster will go ahead and do it at some point. t's the opposite with decreasing emissions, which requires cooperation from every nation.
>>1892111actually rich people can just move to north or hide in bunkers
>>1892115their families live here and leaving their nations would/could mean someone seizing their assetss
>>1890138>>1890947Has anyone done the math on the cost effectiveness of using bamboo as carbon sequestering tech? Would be funny if it's more efficient than every other invention
>>1892116how so? they just pay people to manage them
Geo-engineering is like chemotherapy. Nasty side effects and no guarantee it will work. But sometimes it's your only choice.
I just wish we could stop the Earth from smoking two packs a day, If we had listened to scientists about this in the 1980’s or American hadn't dominated the cold war, we could have made a smooth transition to a low carbon energy economy through efficiency and renewables.
>>1892144It's funny that this turns a profit and everyone is wasting their time trying to make man made solutions less unprofitable
>>1892154It turns a profit and it also provides a solid construction material that means you don't have to produce CO2 elsewhere. Hypothetically you could also produce certain kinds of plastic with it.
>>1892213I've been bamboopilled for a while so I'm on board already, you'd make a fucking shitload doing this so it would probably end up in common plywood eventually. Could probably grow on the shit land they only use for grazing too
Also bamboo scaffolding looks cool, not sure where I'm going with this though, put it up randomly in an effort towards greening the cities?
Bamboo. Freaking. Roadways.
Global warming is terrifying to me. I feel I’ve broken the 4th wall. Uncovered forbidden knowledge. It was supposed to happen this fast.
Revolution must over throw capitalism or to the very least transform our energy system. The latter is more realistic imo. Common bros, do the revolution. I want to live a normal life and not see the collapse of civilization. I don’t want to choose between starving or putting a bullet in my brain
>>1866049The WEF doesn’t offer a real solution.
>>1892481>I want to live a normal life and not see the collapse of civilization. You are gonna see the collapse of the biosphere, dawg.
>>1892481Be the change you want to see in the world and shoot down private jets.
>>1866038Climate change is a real problem that will result in millions of dead. Still my greatest worries are climate change resulting in full nuclear war.
>>1892483They try to do but they are powerless in the face of capital.
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