>>1870100agreed, but, a certain level of proletarian nationalism does make sense if you're in a socialist country
>>1870100[X] don't give a fuck, because: discussion predates the First international
The state represents the possibility of political universality so i disagree
>>1870108Its all a big circle-jerk. Watch the same thread and same shit over and over again
<The Communists are further reproached with desiring to abolish countries and nationality. The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word. National differences and antagonisms between peoples are vanishing gradually from day to day, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto. The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilized countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat. in proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.https://www.marxists.org/archive/rosdolsky/1965/workers.htm#01https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
kinda. but this is always exploited by wreckers and shit stirrers to say that you shouldn't support nationalist liberation movements being oppressed by the USA+puppets
>>1870100China, Russia and Palestine are based, i could cite more nations, but those are the main ones people should support, or at least support the people inside those nations that suffer from imperialism and xenophobia.
"A state" does not automatically imply the existence of a national/ethnic/religious identity that inevitably clashes with communist universalism. You're thinking of "country".
>>1870100Nationalism contradicts communist goals (being, among other things, the call for a stateless society) but it does not contradict communism, that is, the movement towards building a communist society.
>because states need slavery from poorer countries in order to exist.This is a self-contradictory statement (how does the poorest state exist?). But even if it was true, how is this relevant? How do you propose we defeat capitalism while avoiding the exploitation of workers? The revolution will not be ethical.
I will also add to that: nationalism is a spook and I do not support it.
>>1870116Do you believe it is a
necessary stage of development?
Rootless cosmopolitan thread
>>1870117>National differences and antagonisms between peoples are vanishing gradually from day to dayyeah how's that going for you buddy
>Nationalism is inherently anti-communist. If you're a simp for any states then you're anti-communism,
Agree
because states need slavery from poorer countries in order to exist.
Don't agree. This is a turtles all the way down argument.
>>1870437Very well actually, it's undeniably true and becomes more true every day. Globalisation has been very successful and progressive in this regard. Can't imagine why you'd think otherwise tbh.
>>1870437>yeah how's that going for you buddyPretty good.
The USA has assimilated all its former constituent peoples, China has assimilated all the Chinese speaking peoples into the mandarin culture. Europe is for all intends and purposes mostly culturally and economically assimilated. People all over the world watch similar or the same movies, listen to similar or the same music, which is no longer divided along ethnic lines.
>>1870411first day to marxism?
>>1870411haz retard detected
>>1870100So what happens when these slaves use nationalism as a tool to lose their shackles? Nationalism in the global south is not inherently anti-communist, in fact its often the opposite.
With countries in the imperial core it's difficult. You have cases where nationalism can be a good thing, like in Portugal where it stands or stood in opposition to fascistic globalist lusotropicalism, or Ireland and to a degree also Scotland, where nationalism stands in opposition to Unionism.
>>1870443>>1870444last time i checked oinkraine and russia were having a brothers' war, china and amerikkka were on the brink of another cold war with the third world divided between them and isn'treal and iran on the brink of a regional war as well
>>1870100communists gotta pick up the banner of nationalism or else the rightists will
>>1870783rightists already did that, or have you missed how in all revolutions the nationalists have always waged war against the communists?
nationalism precedes internationalism
>>1871471We've ticked the box more than enough times, will you kindly start the train please
>Nationalism is inherently anti-communist.
Lots of communists disagree, including the big ones. Specifically on the issue of one nation being subjugated by another.
>If you're a simp for any states then you're anti-communism
Including communist states?
>because states need slavery from poorer countries in order to exist.
No they don't? I don't even think states are good (anarchist) but this is just incorrect. Plenty of states do subjugate other countries and plenty of states don't. All states subjugate people, but that's different from what you're saying.
>>1870446What you are pushing is zionism not Marxism. The main line of Marxism is anti-imperialism above everything else. The next line is that nothing really unites the imperialized and the imperialist nations at the moment. This is a logical conclusion from Lenin, in the same way Lenin's conclusion is the logical conclusion of Marx/Engel's historical materialism. The next line is the line on the national question. Even before Lenin died, Stalin laid out the groundwork that communism IS nationalism, especially in imperialized or stateless nations. Stalin 1918 to the others in the party- the fight for Soviet power is essentially a fight between the representatives of different classes about who is the authentic nationalist.
Engels in Condition of the Working Class in England- around the middle of the book he writes that true nationalists are the proletariat and that the bourgeoisie form something like a separate rootless cosmopolitan nation, which is the foundation of bourgeois nationalism. Mass migration, labor aristocracy, etc. That is the parasitic "garden" basically as opposed to the rest of the world. The governments of europe and america were never truly nationalistic since the 19th century, nor is their "nationalism" speaking about actual existing nations. They dont just imperialize the third world, but also their own nations at home.
But because the state of the board is so fucking sad, it's full of zionist faggots from reddit ,just like you who discounts national realities altogether by lumping everything in one and equating nationalism with "racism" or "chauvinism" or "imperialism" a priori. This is the ultimate form of social fascism in the original sense, and does nothing but serve imperialism to begin with. Nations exist, they are real, wake up and smell the coffee. Based on the Bolshevik line without nationalism there is no internationalism. The nation is based on a common culture. Your borderless westernized post modern shit hole you live in has no roots in common culture, it's cosmopolitanism.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm
>>1871503>muh cosmopolitanismKeep up, tailist
>>1870100Agree. It is such a plague in human politics. I guess it's an advancement from tribalism and city states.
Can anyone here define what a 'nationalism' means? I feel like people are just talking in circles about this topic.
>>1870777russia-ukraine has been at an impasse for a couple of years now
russia itself is still a fairly globalized country anyways even despite sanctions
>>1870437all nationalist movements nowadays are just neoliberalism in disguise
look at reagan and thatcher
>>1870100nah, because it always depends on the concrete conditions and not on the metaphysic laws
also
>states need slavery from poorer countries in order to exist.isnt true at all
>>1870117>Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the wordsocialist nationalism is a necessary step for dotp
furthermore thread/
>>1870100>because states need slavery from poorer countries in order to exist.This isn't even true of most capitalist states wtf are you smoking
that is imperialism
>>1870117Marxism has turned into a militant political religion rather than a vibrant source of intellectual and revolutionary ferment.
>>1872523I take my advice for modern warfare from Civil War reenactors
>>1872533>>1872531prove marx wrong
pro tip: you cant
>>1872549Maybe you should read him instead of the fascists who stole his name.
>>1872572The Introduction is sufficient but the rest is good. You will not find 40 pages in the canon that provide greater and broader insight into Marx's total understanding of economics *and* society and how they shape and maintain one another.
>>1870100Disagree.
A socialist nation needs grassroots cultural protection or else you end up like the Ottomans where the British empire sets loose a few bad actors and then it's GG. To survive, a socialist nation needs to cultivate anti-liberalism sentiment at an equal level as America has anti-communist sentiment.
The state also exists so to deny it is utopian and thus a loser idea. I don't think you actually care about winning though. I think this is just "fitting in with my breadtubers" rhetoric. Nationalism would go away at the same time the existence of the state wither away under Marxist theory. So, to bitch about it now kind of shows your card as an anarchist (loser)
>>1872723Is there anything on this website that isn't fascists trying to make excuses for themselves in Marxist language? Serious question.
>>1872723>I think this is just "fitting in with my breadtubers" rhetoric.Doesn't Contrapoints have that annoying meme about how leftists don't want to "win" by fitting into the established system or whatever? You sound just like her lol
>>1872732Well you're mostly gonna find that in a thread about nationalism obviously.
>>1872732no revolution is done by a party but by a nation
>>1872723>The state also existsAnything that is created can be destroyed. Who ever said otherwise?
>Nationalism would go away at the same time the existence of the stateThe nation-state died in 1947. The market-state is what neoliberalism has left to us. Even Hungary is going to have to contort itself to foreign investors someday.
I do wish people would get over their phobia of the New Left so that we can have some competent theory against neoliberalism that isn't futile or made entirely of reified buttblast.
>>1872572is posting frogs not allowed now
>>1872732>anything i dont like is fascismwhy are fascists like this?
>>1872913>The nation-state died in 1947. The market-state is what neoliberalism has left to usdelussional
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