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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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I don’t get why, patriarchy is a pretty pernicious and violent hierarchical structure that negatively effects both men and women, makes female workers more easily exploitable and easier to disrupt in organizing, makes men more likely to act as class collaborators with more powerful men against women from their own class and as a whole, is consistently used as a means to establish buy-in for many men into capitalism, with many reactionary bourgeois ideologies targeting young men playing heavily on patriarchal beliefs and norms, and of course, like it or not, but part of the issue with SA and less serious but still harmful forms of gendered and intimate abuse in some socialist parties and anarchist groups like it or not likely come down to patriarchal attitudes not sufficiently critiqued and deprogrammed out of male members

I’d also say there’s no problem discussing it either unless you’re more concerned with alienating potential male chauvinist allies over basically all women that might possibly be interested in radical politics
90 posts and 7 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 

>>1871685
I think there's always been some degree of that but maybe the low traffic made it more noticeable. Idk if I've ever seen a whole thread with that posting style though. (There have been stubborn fools who ignore what people say, but in the "I'm going to interpret this uncharitably" sense usually)

 

>>1871682
Every discussion eventually devolves into implying the other poster is actually a pedophile, a murderer, etc. when they haven't mentioned anything remotely pedophilic or murderous at all. Absolute state of leftypol.

 

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>>1871687
>> patriarchy is (allegedly) just in their interests.
>I am so, so mad at this narrative.
picrelated

 

>>1871688
I told you very directly, there’s a reason I said you pretty much are directly replicating racism and misogyny through how you’re speaking
Like, what even separates you from a Redditor, that would deny having privilege, because they don’t have real power in society personally?

They point isn’t that you have power, the “privilege” isn’t to be an individual with power, the privilege is to be able to unironically claim that issues that affect women and POC are identity politics but issues that affect you as well are “real material class politics”

The privilege is to not be targeted by misogyny or racism in addition to already having to be a worker, these are things that half the population of all workers have to encounter, since half of all workers are women and half of all workers are POC, but somehow issues that affect them are “idpol” and unworthy of political action, it’s a stance that unquestioningly assumes a white man is both the natural center of the socialist movement and also the default “worker”

 

>>1871670
>(((you lot)))
meds
>approach the matter from (more schitzobabble)
So you recognise that the topic can and should be approached from the standpoint of the proletariat and its needs, yet would rather extinguish the conxersation, ensuring only abstract approaches to the topic get explored elsewhere. Wrecker shit.

 

>>1870904
Patriarchy isn't IdPol, it's a mode of production, or an integral, subsumed element of a more generalized one, since the pastoral mode of production in the neolithic age. As it is the case with all modes of production that came before capitalism, that indeed destroys the patriarchal condition over time, remnants of the past still stare back at us. For example, academia is basically a feudal institution. But unlike a purely social machinery, patriarchy is premised by a certain biological reality that capitalism can not transcend.

"Modern" patriarchy (e.g. the time from approximately 1848 to 1945) was in some way needed in capitalism, because while men were double-free wage workers (free of bondage, free of subsistence), women were charged with the reproduction of the proletariat itself. Housework and raising a child is not unpaid labor, technically, because the value of the labor power commodity, what it takes to reproduce it, obviously has to include the worker being able to feed his family. Neoliberalism destroyed all that, hence it destroyed the patriarchy. But now you can say that the worker is three-times free - free of bondage, free of subsistence and free of communal child care, since the extended family has long ceased to exist - doesn*t matter if we are talking single moms or single dads, for example. So this negation needs another negation (sublation) in order to function again, and I am not quite sure if capitalism will ever be up to it, although I am not ruling it out (I have a similar stance on the climate question - maybe capitalism can solve it, but the point is that it will never be in our interest, you are more likely to get eco-Hitlerism than a "green revolution"). And then there are the cultural remnants, like sexism, which still exist, and you'd be a retard to think that it doesn't.

 

>>1871695
>patriarchy is a mode of production
oh my fucking god lmfao

 

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>>1871693
It's always 'anti-imperialist' movements, 'anti-fascist' movements, 'anti-police' movements, 'anti-racist' movements, 'progressive fronts', feminism and everything under the sun, but you won't see them mention communism or even the trade union struggle once.

Even for leftoids their choice of words is more often than not indicative of their reformist mindset. 'Racial capitalism', ergo support for 'decolonialism'. 'Patriarchal capitalism', ergo support for feminism. 'Finance capitalism', so advocacy of reformist regulations on banks. So on and so forth.

 

>>1871696
You could have not possibly been able to read the rest of my post.

 

>>1871698
the moment you called patriarchy a "mode of production" the rest of your post wasnt worth reading

 

>>1871699
That's upsetting, because I clearly stated that it doesn't exist as such anymore and was mostly occurring in the clan societies of the neolithic age.

 

>>1871692
>issues that affect you as well
congrats buddy youre this close to getting it

if its not tied to the proletarian condition, then its identity politics. its that simple, no need to obfuscate what communism is so you can feel less bad over pushing for interclassist reform

 

>>1871692 (me)
Since the point of privilege is to induce class collaboration, and yes, this is something women and POC acknowledge very openly, of course it comes with severe trade-offs, namely, getting white males to politically align with a class whose primary motive is to drive their wages down as far as possible and make them work as long as they can, the problem is, unless you can acknowledge the marginal benefit they do gain from it, namely that things like white supremacy and patriarchy are designed to ensure that in most instances, a white man is made to expect that no matter what happens, a woman’s or black person’s life will likely be worse, and since humans generally go down the paths of least resistance and finding ways to accept one’s lot in life, that assumption makes buy-in with the system easier.

This was significantly easier to recognize for what it was prior to the late 20th Century when these groups facing these additional struggles organized against them, things did change but it’s not like patriarchy or white supremacy ceased to exist, more, solidarity across lines became somewhat easier than before

 

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As long as you acknowledge that class is the primary contradiction talk about what you'd like.
Sadly though most feminists lack any sort of class analysis these days and reduce everything down to a struggle between male/masculine and female/feminine identities. It seems that many of these feminists identify more with the girl who assaulted me rather than myself just because I'm a guy.

 

>>1871701
Notice how, again, you’re repeating the notion that in fact, issues that affect all proletarians outside of white males, are not class politics, which inherently implies that white males are the default human subject.

Idk if
>To be a real communist, you must refuse solidarity with women and non-whites
Is a claim that will beat the allegations

 

>>1871704
lol at picrel

 

>>1871697
>but you won't see them mention communism or even the trade union struggle once.
Then mention it to them. I'm not quite sure what movementism is, but it sounds like that's what you're talking about, and I've seen dialouge about it. You can criticise the way people go about things and get them to stop being revisionist.

 

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As a proletarian trans folk I've got much more in common with a random white straight male prole than some middle-class queer, lol.

Feminism is, by nature, a cross-class movement. It’s very funny to me that people consider feminism, or gay rights, or trans rights, to be somehow inimical to bourgeois states/capital. There are many states which have granted extensive rights to these groups, and corporations enthusiastically embrace them at every opportunity.

I don't think leftypol actually knows what communism is even about. Accurate name if you think about it, I guess.

 

This board completely snaps when someone is trying to discuss women's issues despite it being a longstanding Marxist tradition, which says more about the userbase than the subject matter at hand. And now you fuckers want to bring race into this as well for the ultimate shitshow?

Seriously, get a chick, wash your dick, check with your therapist and read Zetkin and Kollontai or some shit.

 

>>1871713
Ah yes the longstanding "Marxist tradition" (did you not realize the irony when typing this?) of supporting inter-class movements.

 

>>1871713
>SUPPORT PETIT-BOURGEOIS WOMEN OR YOURE AN INCEL
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

>>1871717
((this is the part where the projecting incel brings up proletarian women and you gotta wonder, if theyre proletarian why arent they joining the proletarian movement then?))

 

>>1871695
>patriarchy is a mode of production
WHAT
No it isn't. It's a mode of distributing political power and accumulated wealth but it isn't particular to one mode of production let alone a mode of production unto itself. It's part of the superstructure that deals with the surplus produced by a society and reinforcing the base. It's not the base nor a part of it, although it does strongly condition the division of labor so one might make that mistake I guess??
>patriarchy is premised by a certain biological reality that capitalism can not transcend
Actually no, we can transcend it and on paper we have. The dramatically improved survivability of pregnancy, the improved control of women over reproduction, and of course the existence of paternity tests severely undermine the relevant material factors for patriarchy, respectively: the instability of female rule due to maternal mortality, the risk of unwanted pregnancy disrupting female rule, and the insecurity of male parentage. That said, the social relations were already undermined by capitalism moving the management of wealth and power away from bloodlines and into the realm of business, rendering even these points largely moot.
>Neoliberalism destroyed all that, hence it destroyed the patriarchy.
>And then there are the cultural remnants, like sexism, which still exist, and you'd be a retard to think that it doesn't.
But that's the whole point here. Sexism we see in the "developed" countries today is not a form of patriarachy, which is to say not upheld by a self-sustaining system that reproduces itself through reproducing sexism. The sexism being reproduced today is mostly a cultural artifact. There are only limited ways in which capitalism benefits from reproducing sexism, and those could largely be argued to simply be a function of conservatism - it's often more profitable to keep things running smoothly while changing as little as possible. Conversely, for other businesses it might be more profitable to shake things up. It's in this sense that the struggle happening here is mostly being fed by intra-class interests of the bourgeoisie, who are actually wielding almost all the political power and using sexism and other social issues to manipulate workers into fighting on their behalf (by consuming their products). Any struggle for liberation that has been subsumed by the culture war is really no struggle at all, even if it feels like one, even if you shed your blood, sweat, and tears for it.

 

>>1871688
>immiserated worker, aka a proletarian, gain under Hitler merely by virtue of being German
The spoils of nazi banditry of the jews
Milions stolen made it possible for their quality of life to soar
fuck you

 

>>1871712
>As a proletarian trans folk I've got much more in common with a random white straight male prole than some middle-class queer, lol.
If you’re a white trans person have you considered maybe your stance against POC, women, and other LGBT proles organizing against things like white supremacy, patriarchy, and cishetero supremacy; all things that effect their lives vis a vis their relationship with Capital and the state in unique ways compared to a white male worker; stems from having lived potentially a significant part of your life at least as a white male?

Because the thing is, none of this actually precludes solidarity, anti-capitalism, and explicit promotion of communism. What it does do, and all it does, is alienate racists, misogynists, and queerphobes, and I think it is very very troubling to see how often white male socialists will actively censor or at least socially sanction these other groups to instead try gaining favor with aforementioned potential reactionaries, even though those other groups are far more likely to assist you and outright become communists than, say, white male workers that become severely put off by politicized POC or women or LGBT people

Which isn’t to say you shouldn’t at all try organizing white guys if they’re workers

I honestly feel like pointing to wealthy women, or wealthy black men, or wealthy queers (all of which exists even in the 19th Century as to drain pointing out tokens of all meaning) would be like me pointing to their very obvious racial and gendered chauvinism of the people ITT to discredit Marxism and socialism

 

>>1871688
>what 'privilege' did an immiserated worker, aka a proletarian, gain under Hitler merely by virtue of being German?
dude what
the nazis famously redistributed Jewish (and other) wealth to "true aryans"

 

>>1871712
>Feminism is, by nature
Ah okay, the transhumanist with the anime avater has entered the chat. Amazing. Let's just ignore the entire tradition of proletarian feminism, I guess it's class-collaborationist.
>As a proletarian trans folk I've got much more in common with a random white straight male prole than some middle-class queer, lol.
"Middle class" is an unmarxist term, but even if I'd were to roll with it, yeah, when this applies to trans people then it sure as hell applies to working/unemployed women too. For fucks sake, LGBT shit is BY NATURE way more class-collaborationist because it is much more clear cut since it revolves largely around (de-)criminalization and civil liberties.

>inimical to bourgeois states/capital

One is not like the other, because women are charged with the reproduction of the proletariat itself, the LGBT community is not. Any form of sublation of this seems impossible as the conditions of capitalism in its highest stage don't allow for a work-life balance regarding this.

 

>>1870904
Simple fpbp
>>1870906
Straightforward and adequate tpbp
>>1870909
Fourth and final cherry on top fpbp
>>1870897
Unless you want to take this to certain nation generals in which you can address certain policies the patriarchy more or less does not exist in multiple nations, we are primarily first worlders like it or not, otherwise I reckon our nonexistent Nigeria general would be the biggest threads, yet I see no one from there or Ghana here, so that said we simply have no reason to discuss it.
And for the record the grifter economy is not patriarchy.

 

>>1871713
>read Zetkin and Kollontai or some shit.
Maybe you should take your own advice

 

>>1871723
>What it does do, and all it does, is alienate racists, misogynists, and queerphobes
This "everyone who disagrees with me is just a bigot" line doesn't work anymore. It's not still 2012.


>>1871729
The problem is we're arguing with somebody who thinks "feminism" is just a synonym for anti-sexism rather than a specific social movement situated in a historical context.

 

>>1871707
Not really the response I was hoping for but then again I suppose there wasn't much to my post anyway.
I don't know, I just grow tired of people who want to bemoan the privilege of others while leaving their equal or greater privilege unchecked.

 

>>1871732
No, I think if you are actively against the notion that women and POC should organize against political oppression that targets them specifically and should ignore political movements that target them and refuse to show them solidarity and even advocate political violence against these people then odds are you are exhibiting racial and gendered chauvinism
And you can say
>Well I’m not directly organizing with racists or incels!
Yet the things you argue more or less imply the movement should cater to their worldview enough that it should push out groups agitating against issues that would alienate a white or male chauvinist

I think it’s notable that the only people in the socialist left that foam from the mouth about “identity politics” and claim that political action against racial oppression “divides” the movement are literally white males that call themselves socialists and essentially nobody else

And please, before you post the cherry picked memes of Huey Newton and Kwame Ture I hope you know they would not at all agree with the social chauvinist position and were instead standing against the position of assimilation into capitalism

 

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>>1871736
>No, I think if you are actively against the notion that women and POC should organize against political oppression that targets them specifically and should ignore political movements that target them and refuse to show them solidarity and even advocate political violence against these people then odds are you are exhibiting racial and gendered chauvinism
Well you can think whatever you want, however much or little it aligns with reality. The more you ignore what people say the less reason you give them to care what you think.

I'm all for people organizing around particularist issues within a socialist framework and with the understanding that the bourgeoisie, regardless of their shared identities, are the enemy. These supposed "identity politics" are after all merely extensions of class struggle, and therefore struggling against them is engaging in class struggle. Th problem is class collaboration that comes from identifying with any group above class and serving bourgeois interests under the impression that they are fighting for the interests of women, minority ethnicities, LGBT people, etc. Any such group is overwhelmingly made up of working class people, so victory for the bourgeois members of these categories is not victory for the workers of these categories, and victory for the working majority is a victory for the workers.

 


 


 

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>>1871712
>I don't think leftypol actually knows what communism is even about. Accurate name if you think about it, I guess.
In other news, wild bear shits in forest.

>Because "patriarchy" is by and large just a vague gesture towards sexism. At worst it muddles up the difference between the after-effects of a patriarchy with an actual ongoing patriarchy and/or treats sexism as an essentialist and trans-historical battle between men and women as opposed factions.

Someone hasn't read up on their theory. Patriarchy is the hierarchical norm of social norms meant to reduce the autonomy of non-men and transform men into its soldiers to enforce this uneven, enforcing gender norms and so-called "traditionalist gender roles".
In the social ages preceding civilisation, the organised force of the ‘strong man’ existed for the sole purposes of trapping animals and defence against outside danger. It is this organised force that coveted the family-clan unit that the woman had established as a product of her emotional labour. The takeover of the family-clan constituted the first serious organisation of violence. What was usurped in the process was woman herself, her children and kin, and all their material and moral cultural accumulation. It was the plunder of the initial economy, the home economy. The organised force of proto-priest (shaman), experienced elder and strong man allied to compose the initial and longest enduring patriarchal hierarchic power, that of holy governance. This can be seen in all societies that are at a similar stage: until the class, city and state stage, this hierarchy is dominant in social and economic life.

<In Sumerian society, although the balance gradually turned against the woman, the two sexes were still more or less equal until the second millennium bc. The many temples for goddesses and the mythological texts from this period indicate that between 4,000 and 2,000 bc the influence of the woman- mother culture on the Sumerians, who formed the centre of civilisation, was on par with that of the man. As yet, no culture of shame had developed around the woman.


<So, we see here the start of a new culture that develops its superiority over the mother-woman cult. The development of this authority and hierarchy before the start of class-based society constitutes one of the most important turning points in history. This culture is qualitatively different from the mother-woman culture. Gathering, and later cultivation — the predominant elements of the mother-woman culture — are peaceful activities that do not require warfare. Hunting, which is predominantly taken up by man, rests on war culture and harsh authority.


<It is understandable that the strong man, whose essential role was hunting, coveted the accumulation of the matriarchal order. Establishing his dominance would yield many advantages. Organisation of the power he gained through hunting now gave him the opportunity to rule and to establish the first social hierarchy. This development constituted the first usage of analytical intelligence with malignant intentions; subsequently, it became systemic. Furthermore, the transition from sacred mother cult to sacred father cult enabled analytical intelligence to mask itself behind sanctity. You point to me how the USA/ the UK doesn't have a patriarchal structure when it robs CIS women of their bodily autonomy to have abortions, or how trans women are demonised and considered othered because they don't fit into a gendered binary of cis-hetronormativity.


>Thus, the origin of our serious social problems is to be found in patriarchal societies that became cult-like — that is, religionised — around the strong man. With the enslavement of women, the ground was prepared for the enslavement of not only children but also of men. As man gained experience in accumulating values through the use of slave labour (especially accumulating surplus product), his control over and domination of these slaves grew. Power and authority became increasingly important. The collaboration between the strong man, experienced elder and shaman to form a privileged sec- tor, resulted in a power centre that was difficult to resist. In this centre, analytical intelligence developed an extraordinary mythological narrative in order to rule the minds of the populace. In the mythological world composed for Sumerian society (and passed down through the ages with some adaptations), man is exalted to the point that he is deified as creator of heaven and earth. While woman’s divinity and sacredness is first demeaned and then erased, the idea of man as ruler and absolute power is imprinted on society. Thus, through an enormous network of mythological narratives, every aspect of culture is cloaked in the relationship of ruler and ruled, creator and created. Society is beguiled into internalising this mythological world and gradually it becomes the preferred version. Thenit is turned into religion, a religion into which the concept of a strict distinction between people is built. For instance, the class division of society is reflected in the story of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from paradise and condemnation to servitude.


https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/abdullah-ocalan-liberating-life#toc5


>There are parts of the world that do exist under a patriarchy in the technical sense, but that portion of the world is shrinking. Women's liberation as a process is proceeding more or less, and in some places has reached the effective limits of what can be done under liberalism.

By that logic, we may as well say there are parts of the world where racism doesn't exist!
You're a fool if you think that patriarchy alone effects CIS-women. It effects men too.

Gender discrimination is not a notion restricted to the power relations between woman and man. It defines the power relations that have been spread to all social levels. It is indicative of the state power that has reached its maximum capacity with modernity.

<Gender discrimination has had a twofold destructive effect on society. First, it has opened society to slavery; second, all other forms of enslavement have been implemented on the basis of housewifisation. Housewifisation does not only aim to recreate an individual as a sex object; it is not a result of a biological characteristic. Housewifisation is an intrinsically social process and targets the whole of society. Slavery, subjugation, subjection to insults, weeping, habitual lying, unassertiveness and flaunting oneself are all recognised aspects of housewifisation and must be rejected by the freedom-morality. It is the foundation of a degraded society and the true foundation of slavery. It is the institutional foundation upon which the oldest and all subsequent types of slavery and immorality were implemented. Civilisational society reflects this foundation in all social categories. If the system is to function, society in its entirety must be subjected to housewifisation. Power is synonymous with masculinity. Thus, society’s subjection to housewifisation is inevitable, because power does not recognise the principles of freedom and equality. If it did, it could not exist. Power and sexism in society share the same essence.


<Another important point we have to mention is dependence and oppression of the youth, established by the experienced elderly man in a hierarchical society. While experience strengthens the elderly man, age renders him weak and powerless. This compels the elderly to enlist the youth, which is done by winning their minds. Patriarchy is strengthened tremendously by these means. The physical power of the youth enables them to do whatever they please. This dependency of the youth has been continuously perpetuated and deepened. Superiority of experience and ideology cannot easily be broken. The youth (and even the children) are subjugated to the same strategies and tactics, ideological and political propaganda, and oppressive systems as the woman — adolescence, like femininity, is not a physical but a social fact.


<This must be clearly understood: it is not coincidence that the first powerful authority to be established was authority over woman….


<The culture concerning women that was developed by the monotheistic religions resulted in the second major sexual rupture. Where the rupture of the mythological period was a cultural requirement, the rupture of the monotheistic period was ‘the law as God commands’. Treating women as inferior now became the sacred command of God. The superiority of man in the new religion is illustrated by the relationship between the prophet Abraham and the women Sarah and Hagar.


<Patriarchy was at that point well established. The institution of concubinage was formed; polygamy approved. As indicated by the fierce relationship between the prophet Moses and his sister Mariam, woman’s share in the cultural heritage was eradicated. The society of the prophet Moses was a total male society in which women were not given any task. This is what the fight with Mariam was about.


<In the period of the Hebrew kingdom that rose just before the end of the first millennium bc, we see, with David and Solomon, the transition to a culture of extensive housewifisation. Woman under the dual domination of the patriarchal culture and the religious state culture plays no public role. Te best woman is the one who conforms most to her man or patriarchy. Religion becomes a tool to slander woman. Primarily, she — Eve — was the first sinful woman who seduced Adam, resulting in his expulsion from paradise. Lilith does not subjugate herself to Adam’s god (a patriarchal figure) and befriends the chief of the evil spirits (a human figure who rejects being a servant and does not obey Adam). Indeed, the Sumerian claim that woman was created from man’s rib was included in the Bible. As pointed out earlier, this is a complete reversal of the original narrative — from women being the creator to being the created.


<Family, in this social context, developed as man’s small state.


<The family as an institution has been continuously perfected throughout the history of civilisation, solely because of the reinforcement it provides to power and state apparatus. First, family is turned into a stem cell of state society by giving power to the family in the person of the male. Second, woman’s unlimited and unpaid labour is secured. Third, she raises children in order to meet population needs. Fourth, as a role model she disseminates slavery and immorality to the whole society. Family, thus constituted, is the institution where dynastic ideology becomes functional.


<The most important problem for freedom in a social context is thus family and marriage. When the woman marries, she is in fact enslaved. It is impossible to imagine another institution that enslaves like marriage. The most profound slaveries are established by the institution of marriage, slaveries that become more entrenched within the family. This is not a general reference to sharing life or partner relationships that can be meaningful depending on one’s perception of freedom and equality. What is under discussion is the ingrained, classical marriage and family. Absolute ownership of woman means her withdrawal from all political, intellectual, social and economic arenas; this cannot be easily recovered. Thus, there is a need to radically review family and marriage and develop common guidelines aimed at democracy, freedom and gender equality.


<Marriages or relationships that arise from individual, sexual needs and traditional family concepts can cause some of the most dangerous deviations on the way to a free life. Our need is not for these associations but for attaining gender equality and democracy throughout society and for the will to shape a suitable and common life. This can only be done by analysing the mentality and political environment that breed such destructive associations.


<The dynastic and family culture that remains so powerful in today’s Middle Eastern society is one of the main sources of its problems, because it has given rise to an excessive population, with the power and ambitions to share in the state’s power.


<The degradation of women, inequality, children not being educated, family brawls and problems of honour are all related to the family issue. It is as if a small model of the problems integral to power and state are established within the family. Thus, it is essential to analyse the family in order to analyse power, state, class and society.


<State and power centres gave the father-man within the family a copy of their own authority and had them play that role. Thus, the family became the most important tool for legitimising monopolies. It became the fountainhead of slaves, serfs, labourers, soldiers and providers of all other services required by the ruling and capitalist rings. Tat is why they set such importance in family, why they sanctified it. Although woman’s labour is the most important source of profit for the capitalist rings, they concealed this by putting additional burdens on the family. Family has been turned into the insurance of the system and thus it will inevitably be perpetuated.


<Critique of family is vital. Remnants from past patriarchal and state societies and patterns from modern Western civilisation have not created a synthesis but an impasse in the Middle East. The bottleneck created within the family is even more tangled than the one within the state. If the family continues to maintain its strength in contrast to other, faster dissolving social bonds, this is because it is the only available social shelter.


To suggest that patriarchy, capitalism and the state aren't all connected or INTERSECTING is laughable.

>A lot of sexism is maintained through implicit discrimination that you can't effectively combat through anti-discrimination policies.

Im pretty sure creating policies that actually preserve the rights of women, cis and trans, and ensure that patriarchal structures of power aren't maintained or are at least mitigated might be a start.

>Meanwhile, the reaction against women's rights (e.g. the "pro life" movement) is in a position to make gains in favor of sexism, so the struggle in those cases is one of conservation against reaction. The current "front" in the struggle against sexism and for liberation is the struggle against capitalism. It's not that socialism will fix it, but that the biggest remnants of the problem can't be solved under capitalism.


>>1871727
They ain't the only trans person here who agrees.
<but muh proleterian feminism
If you're going to dickride theory that is limited by the context of its theory without looking at recent social developments, there's honestly no hope for you.

<For fucks sake, LGBT shit is BY NATURE way more class-collaborationist because it is much more clear cut since it revolves largely around (de-)criminalization and civil liberties.

and who is actively taking away and reducing said civil liberties, dumbcunt?
You act as if rainbow capitalism isn't a thing and we aren't aware of it! Actually, come to think of it, how many LGBTQ people do you actually talk to, outside of the "transhumanists with anime pfps" that you probably pic fights with on twitter dot com?

 

>>1871751
also meant for
>>1871719

 

>>1871737
> I'm all for people organizing around particularist issues within a socialist framework and with the understanding that the bourgeoisie, regardless of their shared identities, are the enemy. These supposed "identity politics" are after all merely extensions of class struggle, and therefore struggling against them is engaging in class struggle. Th problem is class collaboration that comes from identifying with any group above class and serving bourgeois interests under the impression that they are fighting for the interests of women, minority ethnicities, LGBT people, etc. Any such group is overwhelmingly made up of working class people, so victory for the bourgeois members of these categories is not victory for the workers of these categories, and victory for the working majority is a victory for the workers.
Am I to ignore how long it took you to finally state this? Have you considered the problem you have is that just because you call yourself a socialist doesn’t mean you have actually dismantled all chauvinistic spooks? Over the years I’ve actually encountered many white socialists that implicitly behave as though labeling oneself as a socialist, finally provides justification for chauvinism, deeply ironic, but I can’t even otherwise explain this shit.
That is, conflating people with marginalized identities, even if socially constructed as capitalism itself is, with actual class collaboration, which in America has historically actually took the form of white male workers assisting the capitalist ruling class in the dispersal of their own class by assisting in regimes of political terror against these groups. Dealing with these issues does not divide the movement nor is it somehow promoting fucking collaboration of all fucking things, to understand that race is a constructed identity is to understand why anti-racism is essential especially to a socialist project in the USA. Not just non-racism, but anti-racism. Because the easiest way to stop the specific forms of collaboration racism encourages (white workers with America’s ruling political system broadly in most epochs, black workers with groups like the NoI and various church organizations and often the Democratic Party) is to actively oppose the hegemonic ideology that forms the backbone for modern racism, white supremacy. It’s similar for the unique form of oppression women workers face. Targeting these oppressions is itself an attack on Capital, sure capitalism can reincorporate some aspects back into itself to quell their radicalism…but the same is true for the Labor Movement itself with trade unions becoming a stable part of capitalism in the West from the 40s onward, even anti-capitalism can be commodified and sold, for fucks sake you can buy anything from Marx to Mao at multiple NYC book retailers
Just bc capitalism can recuperate certain aspects of radical movements doesn’t mean it can actually drain the movement of its most radical edge, hence why the most ardent feminists and opponents to white supremacy tend to be women and POC that either ally with socialists or identify as socialists

 

>>1871771
Leftypol isn't synonymous with the socialist movement, I stated “this board” in my OP
And it depends on the type of socialist party and its composition irl, some parties have this issue, others don’t

 

>>1871751
>>Because "patriarchy" is by and large just a vague gesture towards sexism.
>Patriarchy is the hierarchical norm of social norms meant to reduce the autonomy of non-men and transform men into its soldiers to enforce this uneven, enforcing gender norms and so-called "traditionalist gender roles".
This is the difference between a technical definition of the term and the way it's commonly used, which is what was being responded to. Hence the scare quotes.
>By that logic, we may as well say there are parts of the world where racism doesn't exist!
No, that doesn't follow. There is a difference between patriarchy and sexism in the same way there is a difference between white supremacy and racism. You might abolish the explicit system but some of its effects can remain afterward.
>You're a fool if you think that patriarchy alone effects CIS-women. It effects men too.
I don't nor did I imply this anywhere.

>To suggest that patriarchy, capitalism and the state aren't all connected or INTERSECTING is laughable.

They are all related but they're not simply interwoven together in one mass. In many ways they are in tension with each other, such as patriarchal power competing with bourgeois power. The dialectic of history involves these contradictions playing out like any others, and in some places that process has gone further than in others, to the point that patriarchy has been effectively usurped, as have associated features like rule by blood. These components are of course not mutually dependent - capitalism can function without patriarchy, and patriarchy has functioned without capitalism. The state on the other hand is necessary to both, but for different reasons. It served to help bridge the two in their respective historical developments.

>Im pretty sure creating policies that actually preserve the rights of women, cis and trans, and ensure that patriarchal structures of power aren't maintained or are at least mitigated might be a start.

The point here is that we have more or less reached the limit of what we can do in that regard within capitalism. This has a lot to do with the co-option of the women's movement into bourgeois feminism. Further material gains would undermine capitalism, so it's necessary to force a pivot to immaterial gains. For example, the expansion of parental leave imposes additional costs on employers and takes away one of their most important levers for coercing the employees. The victories that affect capitalism the least are bound to be won first under capitalism, since the bourgeoisie does not have the incentive to really fight to stop them. But once the struggle reaches the point where all that's left is in opposition to capitalism, no further can capitalism permit the movement to go. Indeed, the backsliding we are seeing in the west is symptomatic of this too.

If you can sidetrack the movement with fighting to maintain its gains, you can take the pressure off that they might exert against those policies that matter to capitalism. Additionally in the case of abortion and family planning, the squeeze on profits incentivize the system to produce a glut of cheap labor by forcing the working mothers to produce more children with less investment into each of them. This swells the labor pool, driving prices (wages) down and increasing the proportion of "unskilled" labor. It also increases the crime rate, which then justifies increasing the incarceration rate (including beyond those actually guilty of any crime) so that the de-facto slave labor population can grow.

The issue of women losing reproductive autonomy can then be understood as a byproduct of class struggle and in conflict with the interests of capitalism. Except in this case, we are seeing a movement backwards because the movement forwards has stalled at the boundary and waited for the encroachment of capitalism to start pushing things back. That stalling and subsequent backsliding can be attributed precisely to the failure to radicalize the movements against sexism.

 

>>1871765
>Am I to ignore how long it took you to finally state this?
This is just assumed here. I was replying to your unfounded charges of chauvinism. Several different people have argued against you ITT.
>Dealing with these issues does not divide the movement nor is it somehow promoting fucking collaboration of all fucking things
That depends. It is often a gateway to liberal ideology, much as you point out the "non-bigotry" is a gateway to chauvinism. That's why I stated the importance of understanding that someone from the same group as you does not automatically share your interests, and why it's crucial to understand why class interests override the others, especially when considering members of the bourgeois class. Either deviation remains an issue so long as false consciousness remains an issue.

 

>>1871682
>>1871685
>>1871689
You're right anons. I am certain that the moralism on /siberia/ last night was automated… or perhaps routinized. They don't read links, get "bored" at book excerpts, and phrase their responses in such a way as to specifically elicit engagement.
Going out on a limb, but it's the sort of thing an information operation would do when things seem to get a little restive on a social media site. Mustn't have the poors talking about material conditions like eating the rich.
> >1871705
Yeah, definitely CPanon

 

>>1871705
>patriarchy doesnt affect white males
>big ol ridiculous strawman
kys idpoler

 

File: 1717168833450.png (31.27 KB, 584x476, fig 2.8.png)

>>1871751
>Hunting, which is predominantly taken up by man, rests on war culture and harsh authority.
huh, disagree. Having weapons allow raid and wars, it's not the other way around. I dont see how "harsh authority" is needed for hunting either. Hunting alone is not responsible for the rise of patriarchy.

>It is understandable that the strong man, whose essential role was hunting, coveted the accumulation of the matriarchal order. Establishing his dominance would yield many advantages. Organisation of the power he gained through hunting now gave him the opportunity to rule and to establish the first social hierarchy. This development constituted the first usage of analytical intelligence with malignant intentions

Yeah, not a fan of the framing of the development of patriarchy as a conscious male conspiracy rooted in the power from hunting. I much prefer the cockshott analysis in "how the world works", explaining the rise of patriarchy from the material need for small community to exchange or acquire women, giving them a lower status, it is much more convincing. I mostly agree with the rest though

<For warfare to exist you need something to fight over. Whereas warfare in pure hunter-gatherer societies seems rare [Fry, 2007; Ryan and Jethá, 2012] it has been common in societies with either herding or at least some form of agriculture. It is clear that once cattle or other beasts are herded they can be stolen, and can be the object of a war party. But fighting is not limited to what Smith called Nations of Shepherds, formidable as these have been.15 Nations and tribes that combine some hoe horticulture with hunting have been warlike. Why?


<According to Meillassoux [1981] the motive for the conflict was the capture not of cattle but young women. Pure hunter-gatherer societies are nomadic, with no fixed villages, and mobility of people between wandering small bands. Agriculture ties people down. He argues that the initial form of family in the transition to agriculture is the matrilocal, which means a society in which adult women stay in their mother’s home or community. Insofar as there is mobility between communities, it is the men who move, seeking wives in other communities.


<In principle either sex can move. You can have a matrilocal system where women stay in their birthplace and the men move, or patrilocal communities where the reverse happens. Although these seem logically to be no more than mirror images, their economic effects are actually very different. The reproductive potential of a community is set by how many young women, rather than young men, it has. This has serious implications for relatively small communities, ones that are not yet able to fully support themselves through the whole year by agriculture. Such communities have to be small relative to their hinterland to prevent the exhaustion of the available game.16 Within such small groups the laws of chance mean that the numbers of each sex coming of age will fluctuate.


<Suppose that we have a small community in which each generation coming of age has on average 40 people. We would expect about half of these to be young women, but as figure 2.8 shows, the number of women could vary between 0 and 40. There is about a 30 percent percent chance that in a given generation there would be fewer than 18 women, a shortfall of 4 women relative to men in their age group. This would presage a 10 percent fall in the population over the next generation. In smaller communities the effect is more marked. A community of 8 families would end up with fewer than 6 young women about 22 percent of the time. But a shortfall of 4 women in this small community implies a shrinkage of the population by a quarter, which would threaten the future survival of the community, bearing in mind that not all of these may be fertile, some may die young, etc.

<In principle some of the young men could leave and try to join another community with a surplus of women, but what often seems to have happened, according to Meillassoux, is that the men raid neighboring communities and abduct young women. Given that the community still depends partly on hunting, the men are skilled in the use of bows and arrows, and these skills transfer readily from hunting to raiding.
<This leads to endemic hostility and suspicion between communities. Men acquire the social role of warrior both to abduct women from other groups and to protect their own women. Such societies may remain matrilineal, with children being brought up in a relatively communal household with their uncles playing what we would regard as a paternal role. There may be no system of strict monogamy. But the beginnings of the collective dominance of men over women exist.
<Men as hunters and warriors develop ideologies that represent them as protectors and heroes and which justify relegating women to what are presented as menial horticultural tasks. In particular the abducted women, cut off from their own community, are likely to be in a very subordinate position.

<The combination of hunting with horticulture limits the size of settled communities. Meillassoux claims that the precariousness of reproduction leads to abductions and raiding. Hunters develop warrior attributes and male dominance begins to develop. But this is collective rather than individual. There is not yet the figure of the patriarch, exercising exclusive control over the sexuality of “his” women. The society may still approve of considerable sexual license, with various orgiastic rituals and very blurred ideas of paternity [Beckerman and Valentine, 2002; Ryan and Jethá, 2010].

<The basic contradiction associated with small matrilineal communities could be solved :
<•  by becoming more exclusively agricultural and piscatorial. While growing in size it is possible to form big matrilineal or even matriarchal communities that do not suffer from frequent random shortages of women of childbearing age.
<•  by moving toward a patrilineal and subsequently patriarchal form of family and clan.

<The probability that a community with several hundred people will suffer serious random swings in its sex ratio is very low. Communities like the Neolithic towns of Anatolia would have been big enough, and sufficiently dependent on agriculture, to avoid the raiding and warrior culture that Meillassoux observed in the more recent tribes that combined hoe agriculture with hunting. Such societies would still have had potential problems within individual matrilineal households if there were no daughters. But this is not such a problem for a peaceful community. It could be dealt with by adoption of daughters from other families, as occurs among the modern matriarchal Mosuo [Stacey, 2009]. While we can only speculate as to whether this took place in Anatolia, it could account for what seems to have been a long period of peaceful development of these communities, without evidence of either stratification or gender inequality in the archaeological record.


<What we do know is that later historical cultures with grain agriculture seem to have been predominantly patrilineal and patriarchal. Meillassoux gives a theoretical account of why this happens: The higher output of settled grain agriculture allows a denser population and at the same time makes the diversion of effort from growing things into fighting less attractive. Peaceful relations between adjacent small domestic communities allow the nonviolent exchange of young women to make up the deficits that would always occur by chance. Women moving to another community, where they lack maternal support, are likely to be assimilated to the status that was formerly held by female captives: subordinate to their mother-in-law and husband. Once such transfers become more common, an increasing number of women are in a subordinate status which then generalizes to all brides being subject to the authority of the existing matriarch and the new husband. In the process the general authority of men over women rises.


<It is the procreative powers of a woman that are the subject of negotiation when she is taken into another group for a period generally held a priori to last as long as her fertility. An agreement is reached which decides the devolution of the woman’s offspring since, due to the circumstances cited above, a woman does not procreate for her community of origin (the identity of the family which will benefit from her procreation must be made public while the claims of the other community are restricted) and also because, since the woman does not procreate for her own benefit, jurally constituted patrilineal filiation must replace self-evident maternal filiation. [Meillassoux, 1981, 43]


<The exchanges between communities can become quite complex, involving debts over time: if 2 women go from community A to community B this year, then it is agreed that at some time in the future 2 other brides will come back in return. This makes daughters valuable in an exchange process that has some similarities with trade. The head of the family, perhaps initially a woman, more probably a man, views them as a resource that gives them power and influence. As such, the default assumption becomes that all daughters will take partners outside the community, and exogamy becomes general.


<Since marriage and social reproduction are the main reason for these external relations, marriage, in order to maintain the elder’s authority, must be prohibited within the group so that nubile girls remain available as subjects of these transactions. Paradoxically, this restriction on marriage becomes increasingly necessary and rigorous in that the group, by expanding, could grow through endogamous intermarriage. When reproduction becomes statistically possible through the mating of members of the community, the power of the elders, rebuilt on matrimonial management, is threatened by the very effects of this management which makes expansion of the community possible. Thus political authority depends on a circumstance which it tends to abolish when it reinforces itself


<The authority must, to be preserved, devise and develop a coercive and authoritarian ideology. Religion, magic ritual, and a terrorism based on superstition is inflicted upon dependants, young people and above all on pubescent women; sexual prohibitions become absolute and punishments for transgression increase. Endogamy becomes incest, and sexual prohibition a taboo. [Meillassoux, 1981, 45]


<Religion, magic, ritual, and terrorism based on superstition justified both patriarchy and class hierarchy. Watts et al. [2016] present convincing evidence that religion, specifically in the form of human sacrifice, was deeply implicated in the formation of stratified societies. The Watts study used as their data a large sample of 93 different Austronesian societies, which being island cultures were comparatively isolated.


<Evidence of human sacrifice was observed in 40 of the 93 cultures sampled (43 percent). Human sacrifice was practiced in 5 of the 20 egalitarian societies (25 percent), 17 of the 46 moderately stratified societies (37 percent), and 18 of the 27 highly stratified societies (67 percent) sampled.


<They then performed a Markov model simulation of the evolution of high stratification and human sacrifice superimposed on the phylogentic tree of the language evolution of the cultures, tracing the origins of stratification and the origins of human sacrifice. They concluded that human sacrifice enhances the probability of transition to a highly stratified state, and stabilizes such a state once it exists.


<They conclude:


<Human sacrifice legitimizes class-based power distinctions by combining displays of ultimate authority—the taking of a life—with supernatural justifications that sanctify authority as divinely ordained….


<Our results provide strong evidence for the claim that human sacrifice played a powerful role in the construction and maintenance of stratified societies. Though human sacrifice was practiced in the majority of highly stratified societies in our sample, it was scarce in egalitarian societies, and we find that its effect depended on the level of stratification. Specifically, human sacrifice substantially increased the chances of high social stratification arising and prevented the loss of social stratification once it had arisen, yet was not found to increase social stratification in egalitarian societies. This is consistent with historical accounts that speculate that in order for human sacrifice to be exploited by social elites, there must first be social elites to exploit it.


<Ingham [1984] makes a similar argument using data from Aztec society. With war, patriarchy, religion and hierarchy in place, the scene was set for the emergence of slavery.


>To suggest that patriarchy, capitalism and the state aren't all connected or INTERSECTING is laughable.

capitalism was born out of patriarchal societies, and so patriarchy persist on some level, but it seems clear it isnt dependent on patriarchal relations, hence the rise and success of feminism in the modern area.

>Im pretty sure creating policies that actually preserve the rights of women, cis and trans, and ensure that patriarchal structures of power aren't maintained or are at least mitigated might be a start.

but these policies exist already (in the west at least).

 

>>1871751
class society comes *before* patriarchy, not after it
>the organised force of the ‘strong man’ existed for the sole purposes of trapping animals
<Hunting, which is predominantly taken up by man, rests on war culture and harsh authority
<It is understandable that the strong man, whose essential role was hunting, coveted the accumulation of the matriarchal order. Establishing his dominance would yield many advantages. Organisation of the power he gained through hunting now gave him the opportunity to rule and to establish the first social hierarchy
words written by people who have zero experience with hunting. hunting doesn't require "strong men", but people who are good at cooperating, tracking prey, handling dogs, have good endurance etc.. there's plenty of evidence of women hunters
as best we know, hunter-gatherer societies do not accumulate vast stores of surplus. rather it is the "mother-woman cult" of cultivation as this pseud calls it that is the source of class society

 

>>1872126
>If I assert something…that makes it true!
White MLoids ain’t ever beating the chauvinist allegations

 

>>1872144
Kys neolib

 

>>1872051
>patriarchy affects cis white males too
>no I will not discuss or organize around these issues
Call this what it is. A thought terminating cliche for bourgeois feminists jockeying to elevate their position in society via misandry.

 

>>1872186
>Call this what it is. A thought terminating cliche for bourgeois feminists jockeying to elevate their position in society via misandry.
Imagine thinking your fake and gay Roman idealism has any business existing in the modern industrial world. Emotional faggot

 

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