[Last 50 Posts]
Sme parts of the Western left are misguided in their view on violence as it results to Israel Palestine, especially as they themselves are beneficiaries of imperialism.
There is a current of thought that says 'all Israelis are legitimate targets of decolonisation' and that there is 'no such thing as a "good" Israeli' I believe this thought to be hypocritical and reactionary when it comes from the western left.
Just to clarify, I am a supporter of Palestine and have marched dozens of time and participated in direct action in my country in support of the cause. I am against the Israeli state and want to see a ONE STATE Solution.
However I do not believe that all Israeli's are uniquely evil or complicit. Because I (and a lot of you reading this) are part of the Imperial world order and a labour aristocracy that has benefitted from crimes against humanity. IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICIT.
Yet as firm believer in dialectical and historical materialism, I see the possibility for change, even in the heart of the imperial core. The left in the west is pathetic and complicit, but I don't think that makes them irredeemable either. If we don't believe in transformation that why do we fight?
So, for that reason, I don't see ALL Israelis as targets either, nor do I dismiss the fact that there are good people in that country, who like leftists in the west, have been smothered by a fascist regime.
>IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICIT.
I hesitate to use the word equal, but yeah, similarly complicit. Especially in colonial-settler states like USA, Canada, Aus, NZ. My state supports the Zionist Regime's genocide, and I am legally a citizen. Without further information, I'm in a similar position to a ZR citizen without further information. Of course, me being actively involved in protests and blockades would make me equivalent to a ZR citizen involved in pro-Palestine protests, just with a bit less government oppression so it's easier here.
That said, if I thought leaving my state would help decolonize, I would. But that is just idealistic drivel, so I haven't and won't for the foreseeable future.
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anyway, fuck off to the palestine thread you arrogant tourist. learn about our culture before barging in here.
>>1887560>'all Israelis are legitimate targets of decolonisation'All adult israelis have the means to easily move back to their countries of origin and stop occupying the land and contributing to their regime. The amount of native jewish palestinians is abysmally small since they too were completely colonised by zionists.
> IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICIT. Most of my ancestors have lived here (where i live) since 250 before christ and some of them even longer. Viewing Israel as "just capitalism" is idiotic and makes you lose sight of the situation on the ground.
>The left in the west is pathetic and complicitAh yes, the left in the west thats on the streets protesting, doing boycots, being kicked out of school and beaten by cops, are complicit in israels genocide.
Dumb thread by a dumb person.
>>1887571There's also a grim side to this of Western leftists cheering on 'decolonial violence' while safely in the knowledge that they will never participate in this.
>>1887577Good.
Don't cry that people being genocided wont stop to question each person they encounter in the heavily armed forts build on occupied land next to the concentration camp they just escaped from if they support a one state or two state solution though.
Because thats "why did the resistance kill occupying wehrmacht they are just conscripts" level thinking
>>1887560oh hey its the guy who cried about maoists calling him a kkkrakkker and mayo monkkkey lmao
>>1887582Does this line of thinking also apply to settler colonial states and /or imperial core states too? Or just the civilians of one country that the empire props up?
Cause if you live in the core then your OWN governments are literally supporting the genocide that's happening now.
>>1887584>All of the imperial core is a settler colonial stateAmerican detected.
>>1887585>settler colonial states and /or imperial core states>andreading is your friend, but also, stop deflecting and answer the question. Why is the imperial citizen any less complicit (indeed, given it's the technology of the Empire being used to commit this genocide, we might even argue that the core is MORE complicit in the genocide)
What makes the fascist israeli different from the fascist westerner in terms of genocide complicity?
>>1887584>>1887585Unless you're equating a government of someone supporting Israel and living in Israel itself
Choosing to live on land stolen not even 70 years ago is different from living in your ancestral homeland while being rules by US imposed parasites who support Israel.
>>1887588>What makes the fascist israeli different from the fascist westerner in terms of genocide complicity?That's not what you asked, deflector. You say all people in the west are complicit. In fact you explicitly name leftists are directly responsible.
>I believe this thought to be hypocritical
"hypocrisy" is a bourgeois concept
>I do not believe that all Israeli's are uniquely evil or complicit
no one believes this
this said, there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis who are directly complicit, who must be brought to trial and who must be sent to the gallows. politicians, military officers, police, musicians, pundits, religious leaders etc.
>>1887594I agree with you, but I'm specifically focusing on the people who DO say that all Israelis are complicit and deserve to be targets (there are some in this thread already)
>Yet as firm believer in dialectical and historical materialism, I see the possibility for changeYour conception of change seems to be airy-fairy. If you are
knowledgeable about dialectical materialism (not a
believer, which is quite a telling choice of words btw) then you would also have to understand the necessity of looking at things concretely, what the thing in question is and how it can potentially change in realistically.
>>1887577If they are actual leftists that grasp the settler-colonial nature of Israel, then why don't they leave? They can continue to protest Germany outside of Israel. I think this is a good example of how what makes a "good Israeli" is misconceived. A good Israeli isn't any Israeli with good intentions but an Israeli committing to effective actions against the geater issues that are systemic. Otherwise they are de facto just another Zionist, but with a bleeding heart and a misguided liberal understanding.
>>1887592> You say all people in the west are complicit.All people in the west are complicit in genocide
All people in Israel are complicit in genocide
But there are also people in both places who have acknowledged this and are working, despite the contradictions to transform this situation.
>>1887599> then why don't they leave? This feels very much like a 'Why are you protesting against capitalism if you have a phone?' argument.
Again, assuming you live in an Imperial country, why are you continuing to live there and enjoying taking the benefits of Global South labour and superexploitation (that means people dying to give you cheap goods btw). Why don't you tear up your own passport?
Maybe you'll say "but that's unrealistic", but then you'll prove the point.
>>1887584>>1887588>Cause if you live in the core then your OWN governments are literally supporting the genocide that's happening now.But there is a clear difference in how the democratic state of Israel is reflective of the pravelent political opinions in Israel, while people in the West largely oppose their government's support of Israel over which they have no control over.
>Why is the imperial citizen any less complicitBecause they aren't settling the land in Israel.
>>1887602>This feels very much like a 'Why are you protesting against capitalism if you have a phone?' argument. It isn't though because it's not a necessity for an Israeli to continue living in Israel, meanwhile you can not escape owning products that were produced by the capitalist mode of production in this day and age.
>Again, assuming you live in an Imperial country, why are you continuing to live thereSo you are equating the imperial core with every settler-colonial country after all?
>>1887585I think your fallacy is that you misidentify the essence. Settling (and therefore also living in) a settler-colonial state is the problem in itself and then you equate that to living in the imperial core that conducts exploitation abroad. Living in the imperial core itself is not the problem however, unlike living (settling) in a settler-colonial state.
If you want to apply that argument to Western settler-colonial countries then I wouldn't say that's the same because the process of colonization is complete and it's not realistic to expect 300,000+ Americans to immigrate to Europe.
>Maybe you'll say "but that's unrealistic", but then you'll prove the point.Not really, Israelis can easily leave. Many of them have dual citizenship.
>>1887560what you must understand is that most of these statements are signalling, not empirical observations. saying "all israelis are legitimate targets" does
not materially increase the chances that a "good" israeli is killed - most of the time the people doing the killing have no fucking idea who you are, they're not going to kill or not kill based on what you tweet!
it's a simple game: "not all israelis deserved it" is a pro-israel aligned signal, "all israelis deserved it" is a pro-palestine aligned one. if you try to think in actual moral terms you'll tie yourself up in knots and still wind up defending the indefensible by implication.
even then, most people living in the west are not "equally" as complicit. no, the Irish have not killed as many innocents as the Israelis. No, even if you count the corpse-pile behind every iPhone. Stop being silly.
>>1887601>All people in the west are complicit in genocide>People in London were directly responsible for genocide of the native Americans in 1800 by the Americans because their governments did trade Retard
>>1887560>IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICITNo, millions of them literally chose to move to Israel and kill brown children even though they had normal lives in Poland, Russia, Ukraine etc. Their motivations for this are disgusting even if you forget about Palestinians, because these people are gusano as fuck. Nothing separates them from the average Eastern European except the dead language larp.
>>1887604>and it's not realistic to expect 300,000+ Americans to immigrate to Europe.*300,000,000+
>>1887610Yes, thanks for correcting me.
>>1887603>But there is a clear difference in how the democratic state of Israel is reflective of the pravelent political opinions in Israel, while people in the West largely oppose their government's support of Israel over which they have no control over.I like how this comment implies that Israel is somehow a perfect democracy while the West isn't.
Both these governments are largely undemocratic by design, but in terms of the deeper hegemonic forces, those in the west are happy to consume cheap goods built on the labour of the global south.
>Because they aren't settling the land in Israel.Not a good argument. Complicity is about a relation to power not only proximity. Are you seriously saying that a weapons manufacturer in the UK is less complicit than an Israeli leftist who is protesting against their own government's genocide?
>>1887607>ignoring the fact that western governments are literally sending arms and military support to Israel right nowretard.
>>1887606>"not all israelis deserved it" is a pro-israel aligned signal, "all israelis deserved it" is a pro-palestine aligned one.I support Palestine and I have no problem saying the first one. I get that there's a strong element of people wanting to be part of the in group and these kind of phrases are signalling devices, but I don't find them particularly helpful or ideologically correct.
No movement is exempt from criticism and there is certainly a disconnect from western leftists trying to distance themselves from Israelis when they are also part of a regime that supports the genocide
>>1887613>I like how this comment implies that Israel is somehow a perfect democracy while the West isn't.Israel doesn't need to be a perfect democray, my point was the elected government is a reflection of the praveling beliefs of Israelis, while Western government's support of Israel does not have popular support in the West.
>those in the west are happy to consume cheap goods built on the labour of the global south.Yet again you are equating two different kinds of issues to which the conclusion is not the same.
>Are you seriously saying that a weapons manufacturer in the UK is less complicit than an Israeli leftist who is protesting against their own government's genocide?Without the Israeli settling Palestine such a situation wouldn't even exist.
>Israeli leftistYou are zeroing in way too much on these outliars. I draw my conclusions based on the bigger picture, i.e. systems, and not how morally guilty individuals are. Your reasoning is liberal. And these allegedly leftist Israelis are probably liberals too.
>>1887618>these allegedly leftist Israelis are probably liberals too.What specifically makes you any different?
>>1887620Because I am not advocating for liberal solutions while maintaing the larger systemic issues.
>>1887624The Israeli protesters protesting the German embassy to stop them selling arms…is that a liberal solution?
>>1887624The systemic issues are literally why it's important to call out the West equally as Israel. How do you not get this?
>>1887613>I like how this comment implies that Israel is somehow a perfect democracy while the West isn't.My guy stop strawmanning.
The difference between the imperialist core and Israel is the difference between a German living in Hamburg and a German on a stolen farm in lebensraum Poland.
>>1887617>western leftists trying to distance themselves from Israelis when they are also part of a regime that supports the genocideAh yes all the western leftists in the armies that are killing Palestinians or defending it from Hamas and Hezbollah. Or do you mean all the leftists working at Thales making arms to sell to israelml? Perhaps you mean all the leftists who are part of right wing parties who support Israel?
>>1887632Being a western leftist doesn't mean you aren't part of the labour aristocracy.
>>1887635I am not + not relevant + not what you said + learn to form a coherent argument
>>1887635Arguments like these are just ways for Zionists to justify keeping everything they stole by pretending like Syrian refugees in Germany are just as bad as them.
>>1887626Yes.
>>1887627No where have I said the West shouldn't be called out, I just disagree with your equivocations.
>>1887636Do you think that all Israelis are uniquely complicit, even those actively protesting against the genocide?
>>1887639My guy Israel hasn't existed for even 70 years. Everyone living there either moved there or are direct children of those who did. They're like Germans moving to "virgin lands" in Poland. Actively staying on land whose original inhabitants are still alive or still a warm corpse is fundamentally different from living on the other side of the world in the same place your ancestors have for millenia. Just because your local dictator supports Israel doesn't mean you're the same as the people actively participating in a settler state and are part of its fucking army to keep the original population out or dead.
>>1887637Israeli settler colonialism is part of the imperial capitalist system. You literally cannot separate them.
Making arguments that all Israelis in this system deserve death is fundamentally libera and reactionary as it assumes nation states are the building blocks and not capital.
It's not difficult to support Palestine and be against Genocide without dehumanising and entire population.
>>1887642>Making arguments that all Israelis in this system deserve deathNo one is saying that.
>>1887642>Israeli settler colonialism is part of the imperial capitalist system. You literally cannot separate them.You litterally can. Settlerism is not an unmissable prerequisite for capitalism.
>>1887642>It's not difficult to support Palestine and be against Genocide without dehumanising and entire population.And there we have it. Its just a whiny zionist who is upset people rightfully tell him he should move back to his homeland and give back the place he stole to the grandma that is still alive in Gaza or Jordan.
The Israeli identity is the problem and it depends on if the individual Israeli is willing to part with it. Most won't be even if reeducation is a priority. Which means anyone who has stars in their eyes that decolonization isn't going to be a violent, irrational process is equally delusional.
>>1887641>or are direct children of those who didI know le funni lenin hat copypasta but this is /leftypol/, not /siberia/, those kids aren't culpable for just being born in the wrong spot. Anything less than giving them opportunities to leave and killing their parents that might be coercing them to stay is adventurism.
>>1887650>Anything less than giving them opportunities to leave and killing their parents that might be coercing them to stay is adventurism.Thats why me earlier replied specified adults.
But idk man, if I was born in occupied poland as the son of nazi parents then realised the whole lebensraum genocide thing is fundamentally wrong and found out the poles who used to live in my parents house were still alive in refugee camps I would leave.
You know. Just like how I left home when I went to study, then how I left when I found a job. I am not bound to the soil, Blut un Boden is bullshit.
>>1887646Ok so we all agree that not all Israelis deserve to die for being complicit?
Cause that's all the OP is saying. We can support Palestian liberation and even the destruction of the Israeli state without having a line on violence that makes all individuals legitimate targets
>>1887560You are close to getting rid of anti-imperialist and multipolarist brainworms. States don't represent people, they represent capitalists, like they represented monarchies in the past. It is a tool to be used. You don't fight "people", cause it's too nebulous. You can't fight that. You can't fight Israelis. You can fight the Israeli state. It's funny that people here revert to the nonsense of "why don't you leave" like rightoids say to communists.
The hard truth is that settler colonialism is a short lived fight. It isn't a primary contradiction like class struggle. When one side wins, the struggle ends and it cannot start again. And it is short lived. The Palestine question is a curious case cause it's recent (less than a century) and it's ongoing. So there is still struggle. But the settler conflict in the US has ended. The genocide killed most of the indians and the rest integrated. There is nothing left to do in that regard. And thinking something can be done is reactionary, cause you want to regress into a past that only exists in your head to invoke a race war.
>>1887654>Ok so we all agree that not all Israelis deserve to die for being complicit? How does this follow? Capitalism does not need settlerism. You can seperate settlerism from capitalism, settlerism is just its own special kind of evil.
Every adult israeli is complicit since they are all part of its army, bar the ultra orthodox ones who even oppose the existence of the state.
>We can support Palestian liberation and even the destruction of the Israeli state without having a line on violence that makes all individuals legitimate targetsThis is a meaningless line to hold. For those engaged in decolonial struggles there is no way to distinguish occupiers who engage in settlerism from people who are so delusional that they think they can simultaneously live in occupied lands while saying its bad somehow.
You should read Fanon. Saying "Hamas shouldnt attack xyz israeli despite them also living in armed compounds" is an impossible position to hold, there is no way for hamas to distinguish so called "good ones" from the rest, so the only thing this moralistic line represents is a way for zionists to demonize hamas for not waging a clean enough war against the genocide of their people.
Morals dont matter. Start thinking about the practical situation on the ground, and what you can and cannot do. There is no way to sniff out which zionist living in towns younger than they are with double passports are supposedly anti colonial, just like there is no way for vietnamese people to distinguish whether or not a frenchman in their country was part of the colonial government or just a delusional loser who thinks he can simultaniously reap the benefits of occupation while denying any involvement and contributing to it.
Show me an innocent israeli adult who was supposedly killed.
>>1887674>Morals dont matter.Bicthes say this and the turn around and say how x country was socialist cause it "lifted people out of poverty" (they just moved the rural people into cities to work in industry). I'm tired of these multipolaristas thinking of themselevs as "materialists" and "geopolitik masters" but then resort to moralist ass arguments like "settlerism is just its own special kind of evil". Give me a class analysis of settlerism or go whine about how you aren't actually moralist elsewhere.
>>1887644>No one is saying that.unfortunately many are saying this, for example this anon
>>1887674>Morals dont matter.> they think they can simultaneously live in occupied lands while saying its bad somehow.This is a very confused post overall, as you hop from moralism of "they are complicit, there are no good people" to "well it's war and things are messy in war and good people die. It suggests you haven't really thought this through on a deeper level.
I'd like to ask why you posit that decolonial struggles (and not say, anti-capitalist struggles) need have a strategy of being inherently violent to the extent of there being 'no way' for liberators to distinguish between combatants and civilians. That seems like a recipe for disaster and is morally suspect at the least.
Like why does this excuse for unrestrained violence only get applied to decolonisation struggles and not anti-capitalism or anti-imperialism in the core?
Also, you might want to look at Myanmar where currently there are massive decolonisation wars and it's very broadly accepted by the rebel armies that killing civilians is a war crime.
That's a lot of text for saying nothing of value.
>>1887682>class analysisOnly fascists and crama queens care about "class analysis". Hismat or get on the gibbet
>>1887655>The hard truth is that settler colonialism is a short lived fight.It's a process that took centuries.
>It isn't a primary contradiction like class struggle.Ah okay. Well then screw the current victims of settler-colonialism, even if this "short lived fight" goes on for decades. Let's just wait that one out and allow them to get raped and brutally murdered in the meantime.
>>1887800I said the Palestine struggle is worth fighting cause it's ongoing. On the US and Australia it makes no sense.
>>1887722Hismat is class analysis retard.
>>1887571Ngl I always read that as a moralistic drivel to try to individualize the responsability by shaming
>>1887909Hismat is science that considers social classifications as well as economic ones; it merely specifies a correct point of departure. Class analysis, on the other hand, is economicist rage porn.
>>1887613> those in the west are happy to consume cheap goods built on the labour of the global south. Ascribing a moralistic term such as "happy" to the current flow of goods is nonsensical at best. The porkies unilaterally decided decades ago to just uproot most industries here and move them to the global south, and the working class of the west largely protested such decision at pretty much every corner when it had the chance. So it's less "happy" and more "they're the only things sold here".
>>1887617Either bait or genuinely retarded, not sure
>>1887674It's extra funny that you go from from "this entire population is evil" to "hamas and the resistence can't effectively separate between the two during warfare", expecially since you could have just started with the latter. This is motte and bailey shit
Land back doesnt mean everyone needs to leave or be genocided and to think that is settler propaganda
>>1887560>IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICIT. cope. one can make allowances for leftists in america and europe as most of them don't get to see the imperial shenanigans' on an up an close basis. israelis on the other live like one hour's drive from the west bank or gaza and all the jews, with the exception of the ultra-orthodox leeches serve in the military
Some of this reads like people trying to justify some perfect world phenomenon where only bad people are involved on the bad guy side and they're the only ones who will get hurt or something, and trying to turn this into essentialist critiques.
>>1888326True, edgy behavior should be shamed, it is infesting leftypol to the core.
>>1888321There are literally people in this very thread saying 'all Israelis must leave'
>>1888374> AppleshitPeak petit bourgielabour aristocrat
>>1888370israeli is not a real thing
they're americans, germans, polish, french, etc
>>1888416Any nationality doesn't exist.
>>1887560>However I do not believe that all Israeli's are uniquely evil or complicitBoring, moralistic drivel, who cares which Israelis are specifically and uniquely "evil" or "complicit"? their country operates an apartheid, so they are going to get got when the people their country subjugates retaliate once in a blue moon, it doesn't matter if what their intentions are, as long as the apartheid remains it will continue like that.
>IF YOU LIVE IN THE WEST, YOU ARE EQUALLY AS COMPLICIT. you are retarded
>Yet as firm believer in dialectical and historical materialisminsane choice of words
>So, for that reason, I don't see ALL Israelis as targets eitherWOW congratulations on reaching this amazing and profound stance!
So what? What does that do? Will you now meticulously search through the list of dead israelis and find out which ones were or were not legitimate resistance targets in your personal view?
Then what? How does this help end apartheid in any way?
>nor do I dismiss the fact that there are good people in that country, who like leftists in the west, have been smothered by a fascist regimeThis is so fucking dumb dude, like 80% of Israelis think the government hasn't bombed ENOUGH gazans, that whole population is cooked, but you do you man, keep holding out hope that the 3 or 4 israeli leftists that remain will be able to "transform" that country into a non genocidal one.
>On Legitimate […] Dehumanisation
Infantile.
Our class enemies are humans. And many of them deserve to be shot. The sanctity of human life is a spook.
Uhmmm sweaty Nazi Germany had a working class too 💅💅
>>1888496and it was the capitalist west who went on mass bombing campaigns of the workers there, not the soviets.
>>1888498LMAO
Yeah the soviets neeeeever targeted civilians ever, no soviet war crimes on the east front no sir
Get real retard
>>1888500America dropped nukes.
>>1888509The eastern front saw such actions as the massacre of settlers from Germany who had taken up residence in other countries following the Wehrmacht's purging of the inhabitants, but there was no official soviet policy of deliberately killing mass civilians who were living in their homes in Germany.
>>1888513Mass murder of civilians was an explicit policy by the west in a way that never was true for the soviets or the CPC or really any socialist group in WWII.
Decolonial mass violence simply does not happen nearly to the extent of colonialist violence, with only a few exceptions that come to mind (Haiti, perhaps).
>>1888505Japanese Empire needed a shock
>>1888496Yes, it was violently surpressed and slaved. And then liberated. What's your point?
>>1888537The US was deliberately killing as many civilians as possible. The bombing crews dropping incendiary bombs on cities mostly made of paper and wood was to bomb the perimeter of the city first to make walls of fire that prevented escape and then to bomb the city into quadrants so as to maximize the rate that new fires would spread by thermal updraft and to cut of the fire departments from helping. It was a deliberate attempt to cremate the cities alive.
>>1888551The only thing unjustified about those bombings is they weren't done by Chinese, Korean, or Filipino pilots
>>1888557Socialists have done just fine without resorting to terror bombing of civilians.
>>1888551So you are against punishing all Israeli citizens then? I was arguing against it too in the thread. But the nuclear bombings had strategic value. The firebombings was where they went too far.
>>1888566The atomic bombing was to test out their new toy for subjugation.
It had no real bearing on ending the war.
What i think should happen to Israelis is irrelevant. I won't shed a tear any way though.
>>1888489What country do you live in?
>>1888566>Israeli citizensthey don't exist
>>1888574>Western Communists they don't exist.
Following german deportations after WW2, should all Israelis be deported? Only non-arabs? What would be the requisites? Asking genuinely.
>>1888623
the closest historical analogue to the zionist entity is rhodesia, the next closest is south africa and the next closest is nazi germany.
>>1888753poles into the ocean, semites can stay in palestine.
>>1888510>no official policy<what are war crimes?You think everything has to be put in writing? Lol
>>1888510>there was no official soviet policy of deliberately killing mass civilians who were living in their homes in Germany.Ehh. It's possible 125,000 German civilians were killed during the Soviet siege of Berlin which was probably higher than the number of Germans burned to death in Dresden. I'm not sure there's a real moral difference, just different weapons. There's no real way to take a city like Berlin without aiming artillery at it and blowing much of the city to smithereens, which is *knowingly* going to kill a lot of civilians and they did it anyways. So be it.
The lack of Soviet terror bombing from the air wasn't due to moral qualms, but capabilities.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing of Germans by Soviet armies which included a lot of rape and murder. For that matter, I met a German woman recently whose family was originally from East Prussia and her grandmother was raped with a bayonet by Russian soldiers. It certainly wasn't *good* but the only people who really care about this are neo-Nazis (like Dresden) and, I mean, I think it was both expected given the norms of international politics at the time, and inevitable. The funny aspect of this are the right-wing Eastern European nationalists who want to deny or cover up the expulsion of Germans for their own reasons.
>>1888909
Dresden used to be a bigger deal to humanists in general. Same as nagasaki and fukishima. Now its all "might makes right" liberal supremacy masking modern horrors.
>it wasnt "good"
No shit, it was evil lol. War is hell.
>not all israelis benefit from colonisation
>but all westerners benefit from imperialism
seems like you have some sort of bias?
>>1888929Yes and i think it serves us well by providence that hitler as the soul of germany is the one who destroys its legacy. But all violence is like this. Pride always ends in murder.
>>1888915>The lack of Soviet terror bombing from the air wasn't due to moral qualms, but capabilities.It's worth remembering that they made a few attempts against the Finns:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Helsinki_in_World_War_II#Great_raids_of_February_1944 , backing up the idea it was less because the USSR found the practice unthinkable and more because of logistical issues with doing the same to Germany. (I mean, it didn't even
work on the Finns…)
>>1888915> her grandmother was raped with a bayonet by Russian soldiers. >It certainly wasn't *good*thanks for setting us on the correct moral path there, you are a true Boddhisattva
>>1887614what do u want me to do about that? i was born in the west so its my fault? you act as if proles control the western governments. when you know we dont. retard
>>1888753All Zionists should be deported. That's the most precise criterion.
>>1889880> i was born in the west so its my fault?No, and the same goes for plenty of Israelis too.
>>1888753Zionists get a free trip in a reeducation camp in
Siberia Sinai.
It's funny and cute that you people are still chasing your tail trying to stay relevant. You talk shit about "moralfags" but rely entirely on this pseudo-moral posturing about who the true working class and its leaders are, then have to debate who your enemies are to evade the simple reality of what the enemy has always been if you are genuinely oppressed. If you need to pump yourself up with ideology to hate an accepted target of the day, you don't know true and holy hatred. If you've ever wanted to blow the brains out of the assholes in city hall who threaten to evict you, you're doing the holy hatred right, and the rulers can't stand that hatred. They'll let you have these rallies of faggy hatred on stage. They won't let you hate anything worth hating, and taught the left to police their own thoughts and obsess over optics that they lost a long time ago, that the rulers never care about this much. The rulers make others conform to their insane demands and have no shame about it.
Anyway, Israel knows what it is, and every Israeli has had a triple dose of that ideology, being placed where their existence depends on ruthless exploitative behavior towards enemy and "ally" alike. But, if you think there's such a thing as "just war", you've already lost the farm. There is no way you can make war just or right - only things that will win the war, and whatever moral sense you have independent of war. War is not a spectator sport or a narrative in that way, unless you are sufficiently removed from it.
The people in Israel who can get out, who are the people most culpable in promoting the worst of Israel's existence, are getting out in swarms. There's your "illegal aliens". I get the sense Trump was there to deport the Mexicans to make living space for Israelis who will take all the stuff Trump's cronies stole from the native, "true blooded" Americans.
Since the Israelis are already coming and making themselves as obnoxious as possible, I'm already resigned to seeing this faggotry go on for decades. When they speak of "the empire coming home", this must be what they were really referring to. So, the idea that killing all Israelis will give some visceral thrill is not particularly comforting to me.
It's also a farcical narrative, because the Muslim opposition hasn't committed grand atrocities for the sake of committing them. War, you may be surprised to learn, does not benefit from atrocities for the sake of performance. Slavery does. Managerialism does. War, not being really an economic or political matter, has to contend with something real to be war, and the conduct of war, even at a low level, is always with that in mind. When you see things like strategic bombing in WW2, at the time and after, it was admitted that strategic bombing was worthless in changing the outcome of the war against the Germans. Strategic bombing had impact on the Japanese, because an island nation's industry remained intact, but by war's end, Japan lost resources that would feed its industry. Terror bombing of civilians had no effect, and was mostly done to please the race-faggots in America. Enough of those people were carrying out the mission Hitler dreamed of - to turn against Japan and wage an eternal race-war in Asia. Even then, after the war, the Americans didn't act like this was a glorious act, always made efforts to downplay what they did, let the Japanese keep their emperor and many of the wartime government officials. Only the fags thought any of that was good or glorious. Sadly, fags rule now and steadily rewrite history to justify atrocities.
I wouldn't weep is the Zionist Entity were utterly annihilated, its people destroyed or carted off to slavery. What goes around comes around. That won't happen, and I wouldn't think it was a necessary thing if the Entity dissolved. But, the Entity isn't going away without taking as much of the world with them as they can. There isn't going to be an easy solution that you can make as a policy, after all of the fuckery Israel has done to bring the world to comply with its program. My expectation is that someone in imperial HQ is getting sick of the tit for tat games and wants to do away with all of the imperial satellites - including the United States, which is already defunct for all intents and purposes. You're all going to find how facile the "America is the ultimate evil" narrative was when you see what comes after.
>>1892631>You're all going to find how facile the "America is the ultimate evil" narrative was when you see what comes after.I can't wait!
>>1888915>her grandmother was raped with a bayonet by Russian soldiersdidn’t happen
>>1887560I agree that all westerners are complicit, I just also believe that makes everyone fair game, and openly invite any and all nuclear-capable powers to destroy any and all states with nuclear weapons at any time.
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