decades of red scare telling them da commies are gonna nuke them
In the end, it is essentially a mix of cold war/red scare propaganda, leddit meme platitude arguments like "Communism is great in theory, good in practice" which are rooted in red scare propaganda and the internet in general allowing chinlets to speak.
>>1888081>good in practice*bad in practice
sorry, brainfart there
Hell they're terrified of liberalism even.
My question is though what do we do about it?
>>1888079Do people hate living objective better lifes? No, so they dont hate communism, but the fear of losing the litle they have. People dont fear communism, they never lived anything close to socialism themselves
>>1888079A lot more people would agree that worker's rights, wealth redistribution and an actually democratic political system are good things, than they would with socialism. When politics is concerned they see the culture war and when socialism is mentioned they see the grey filter of an alien faraway system. Even if they have otherwise reactionary beliefs products of false consciousness, because pretty much everybody has to work, organize their life around work, and would want to have it better.
IMO liberal politics have become so detached from class and materialism that those are seen as merely tools to advance ideology rather than the point. In that framing, any perceived benefits to workers are just the "bribe" that communists use to advance their ideology. So with the materialism removed, what remains of this proyect what they are advancing? The grey filter, the red scare the culture war slop version of it.
>>1888079america being a settler colonial power skipped feudalism entirely and was a mixed capitalist/slave economy for the first 87 years. Manifest destiny and the slaughter of indigenous (along with their decimation by smallpox) meant there was more land to go around per capita than in all of Europe/Asia. This led to the "American Dream" which originally meant being a self-sufficient yeoman farmer but then evolved into meaning being a petit bourgeois suburbanite. The wide availability of land and the nonexistence of feudal institutions created a unique depressurized form of capitalism in a settler colonial continental environment unsurrounded by rival powers. This meant capitalism was free to develop more quickly than its contradictions couldbe reckoned with. Americans are also innovators in the idealist philosophies, coming up with all sorts of nonsense (like mormonism for example) in a misguided attempt to make old world religion relevant in a new world context. So Americans were economically developing faster than Europe, while ideologically developing slower than Europe. The prospect of everyone being petit bourgeois or "middle class" actually seemed realistic to them so you have the development of the "temporarily embarassed millionaire" that steinbeck complains about. Nobody is a prole. Everyone is just a capitalist down on his luck. then once america was no longer able to rely on manifest destiny it started relying on the monroe doctrine to stretch out that petit bourgeois mindset and make it last longer by creating a flow of imperial gibs for the citizenry. Let me not also complicate matters by talking about the internal colonies of black and indigenous, or the use of the prison population and undocumented labor. Point is there's a lot of tools the american empire uses to divide the proletariat, distract them from capital, and keep capitalism "depressurized" so that its contradictions go unnoticed for a bit longer. Then even once class consciousness started developing it was destroyed through not just the red scare (that was rather late in the game) but through early campaigns like the palmer raids.
>>1888103>any perceived benefits to workers are just the "bribe" that communists use to advance their ideology. ironically the communists advocate for the proletariat to seize political power through revolution, while it is the liberals and social democrats who attempt to postpone revolution by bribing workers with reforms.
good in theory
100 million dead in practice
repeat ad nauseum
You can't build socialism on stolen land
>>1888113this is pretty much the correct answer. attributing it to red scare propaganda isnt necessarily wrong in terms of a discrete recent cause, but the red scare's success is also the product of a much longer and more deeply rooted tendency coming out of the US economic and political peculiarities. if you look at the mid-19th century labor movement in the US compared to europe, it was already much more conservative in its demands and horizons because there was so much cheap land available that living better within your lifetime and class mobility were far more realistic prospects than in europe. marx identified this very clearly in the last chapter of capital volume 1. this is also why american labor in the mid-19th century was deeply opposed to slavery spreading but was rarely opposed to it on principle, because both expansion of slavery west and freeing of the slaves would both mean competition for land and jobs for free laborers.
>>1888125but, you can tough?….
the 2 fast growing economies in the world were the 1920-1930 soviet union and 2000-2020 china.
the cooler your communism, the more epic is the line growth. Then you redistribute this wealth to the people. Shrimple as that.
>>1888127Name one instance where it's happened
>>1888125So what are you putting forward aside from snide remarks?
>why are people who own reserves and assets (the middle-class) scared of communism
i wonder why
>>1888125under socialism the concept of "stolen" land makes no sense - i mean it doesnt even make sense under capitalism either lol
>>1888148Socialism cannot happen in settler colonies, not until the settler state is destroyed
>>1888153You know full fucking well what I'm talking about
>>1888157Just create a new socialist country where Canada and the US are, EZ
>>1888153Can Israel be socialist?
>>1888119lysenko froze all the grain
and then stalin paid the clouds not to rain
>>1888157So what exactly does that look like? I'm genuinely curious.
>>1888165What is socialism?
>>1888165>socialism in one countryxd
>>1888157land back is lib bullshit and nothing to do with communism. funny how the idea of a global proletariat goes out the window with third worldist retards
>>1888167A plurinational state led by a JDPON for at least the first decade
>>1888169Not whatever the fuck David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir were doing
>>1888173And you're a crypto zionist
>>1888175nice buzzword. you will never be a communist
>>1888175The only two positions in life according to you: be a zionist or be a #LandBack retard,
>>1888173The right of nations to self determination is a requirement of communism, the presence of settlers on land they ethnically cleansed natives from is a suppression of the rights of said natives to self determination
I'm not a communist but isn't Cuba an example of socialism on "stolen" land?
>>1888186>rights are a requirement for communismYou are incredibly stupid.
>>1888188All the white planter class voluntarily left cuba and it's revolutionary government eliminated race as a factor in social life there
>>1888188All land is stolen land if these faggots weren't arbitrary in their bullshit definitions.
>>1888192Capitalism cannot be dismantled without destroying colonialism
>>1888196>you can't get rid of capitalism without attacking its effects firstDoubling down on the stupidity, huh?
>>1888199Colonialism is the base, not the superstructure
>>1888201Oh you're baiting. Carry on.
The russian empire conquered lots of different cultures and peoples. With the destruction of the Tsar regime and the victory of the soviet, it was created the Union of soviet socialist republics. The russian empire didn't go full "balkanization", being divided in multiple ethnostates, but the relation of imperialism of a metropole and a colony was dismantled. Some nations were formed, and their people gained some forms of independence.
The nature of the land does not imply that socialism can or cannot work. It must adapt to the circumstances of the moment, and abolish capitalism. The land should be of public and collective ownership if possible. The territory must be protected and preserved from foreign invasion. The union of socialist republics must work to eliminate distractions from the class strugle.
>>1888208All responsibility and blame is to be laid on subjective actors working out of bad faith. Everything is caused by 'the West', 'imperialists', 'colonizers', supremely greedy parasitic financiers, politicians with evil in their hearts and 'traitors' to the 'nation', etc. These people don't even try to make it sound materialist.
>>1888188Well no, you see Spanish people are brown so they can't be colonialist.
To be serious this anon is right
>>1888113 All of that is coming to a end though. There's a reason why there's a resurgent's in the popularity of socialisms. The "middle class" is being proletarianized and because more and more nations are becoming nuclear powers neo-colonlisim is starting to collapse too. What this means for the U.S future? IDK I don't think its going to split into a bunch of little ethnostates as some anons on here are fantasizing about. I also don't think its going to devolve into fascism at least not in the long term. If the U.S were to devolve into fascism it would have happen in the 1930s and by fascism I mean the Nazi kind not the Italian kind.
>>1888211>All responsibility and blame is to be laid on subjective actors working out of bad faith.The causes of their crime is not the major concern. The fact is that they committed genocides and crimes, there is enough evidence to back those claims, and they shall be punished accordingly.
Some "nations" committed more recent crimes, in different proportions. But there is also an individual guilty for everyone. Major figureheads will have higher penalties, less influential characters will have lesser penalties and so on and so forth.
So, why does people say there is a "West"? Because there is a set of nations that in recent years have more responsibility in "imperialism", "genocide", "exploitation", etc. Politicians, parasitic financiers, all of them are not only "obeying orders". If they are evil or not, is not important, they chose the wrong options, and shall be wall-ed. The system is bad, capitalism is bad, but that can get only get you so far in the international court.
Speaking as an American that’s discussed Communism openly and talked with older comrades who brought up old red scare shit.
The Old Propaganda
>”Communists literally eat babies.”
>”Communists worship dictators.”
>”Communists literally want Janitors to be paid the same as doctors.”
Modern Propaganda
>Modern Capitalism is actually communism.
>Capitalism means the freedom to get paid for how hard you work.
>Communists are all soy and want to force you to give your house to Black People.
Of course younger people are warming up to the idea, mainly because they can see business and the rich fucking them over, the problem though is that warmth to the idea isn’t enough, there needs to be an institution to direct things. I mean the CPUSA has the advantage of being one of the first results if you type in “Communist Party in America” in google, but even within the context of the party itself, there’s a real issue with geographic divisions. Sure 100 people can join the party in, say, NYC, but if they’re spread out all over the city then doing in person organizing is difficult: like the term is Communism but a lot of American Communities have wholly fractured.
But you’re asking about the hate and fear towards Communism. So to focus back on that, Communism is presented in terms of what and who you’ll lose, rather than what you’ll gain. Like I work in a grocery store, we’re exploited like any other workers, but in regards to Communism (rare as it is when it comes up) plenty of working class individuals, Black and White, have expressed hesitance or even opposition to it. People are an intersection of various social groups, not just work. What’s Communism mean to one of my coworkers, the “store mom” who’s deeply involved in her local Protestant parish? What’s it mean for the Iranian expat who wants her mom to emigrate to America? The Hispanic father working two jobs to support his family? The recovering heroin addict in the punk scene?
Like even speaking as someone in Communist spaces, it often feels like the movement is more for “other people” in rhetoric than the people around me.
>>1888116Tbh the autonomists and the queer theorists have done more work setting up the social relations for life after capitalism than any "org" in the past 50 years.
That their prescriptions have been bent into serving capitalist ends is a separate concern, and there's not much the autonomists and queers could have done about it. There is no uncorruptible theory.
>>1888201>>1888204Colonialism
is part of the base. Specifically this part.
>>1888252what does all those green bubbles mean?
>>1888125this is such a fucking ridiculous thing to say for a communist. if youre a relatively orthodox marxist you fundamentally dont think land is something that can be "stolen" in a way that is potentially pedantic but consistent, and if youre not and you're still actually anti-capitalist in some other way you think that private property is the worst kind of theft in a way that might not be consistent but strongly resonates. i am strongly in favor of some kind of effort, even if imperfect and inconsistent, to give natives land and leverage. but was the russian peasants land any less stolen through serfdom, the british peasants land any stolen through enclosure? it would be generous to call this bait because i think you might have actual brainworms
>>1888201>>1888252absolutely agree with these statements, colonialism is primitive accumulation on a global scale justified with racialist ideology. what do you make of fanons statement that "when the corrupt regimes of the third world are finally overthrown, it will be seen that everything still remains to be done"?
>>1888125>You can't build socialism on stolen landgo back to twitter
>>1888178>Well no, you see Spanish people are brown so they can't be colonialist. some the colonialist saw themselves as white and shot and raided natives, the Taíno were still killed in slavery. Colored or not, they're still slavers
>>1888080>>1888103>>1888113>>1888126>>1888234These posts are correct IMO (i probably missed a few but you get the gist)
To dumb it down even more, some people still live with the mindset that "the strongest will survive!!!" and that trite and view gommunism as "weak and feminine."
The modern "American dream" that most would love to achieve is also based off of just fucking over whoever gets in your way just to get that sweet green. The typical American still believes in the gospel that if they just grind hard enough, they'll become the next Elon Musk/Bill Gates/insert millionaire here. Hell, when I was in school my parents (and many others) were practically setting us all up to go into a prestigious university. To most Americans communism is just this scary force that'll take your (and your childrens') dreams away
To be honest, some of this could be resolved if leftists (in America) weren't so petty and weren't infighting all the time and focused on overthrowing the right's hold on the media scape (where are my leftoid scare ads people?)
>>1888125I don't know much about the landback movement but if you're suggesting to kick off all "settlers" then I'm gonna be real with you and just say you're like 200 years too late lol. Educate me more if my assumption is wrong tho
>>1888248i was talking about liberals and social democrats, not autonomists and queer theorists.
i'll let someone else judge whether they're the same
>>1888269>I don't know much about the landback movement but if you're suggesting to kick off all "settlers" then I'm gonna be real with you and just say you're like 200 years too late lol. Educate me more if my assumption is wrong thoYoure absolutely right, it is certifiably insane to think that everyone or euro descent, or just the bad ones, can somehow be identified and retvrned. i dont even think its virtue signalling necessarily, i think its just a product of being cornered into a weird internet space where you either need to pretend that the genpcide of natives is a non-issue and they dont exist and dont need to be considered, or you pretend that Metacom could still win King Philips War and drive the puritans into the sea
god i wishits magical thinking. the US is a genocidal empire, it is the 4th or 5th (idr) highest population in the world, majority of that population is majority euro descent. ngl i sympathize with natives & people who grew up around them for being resentful of that, anyone else you need to deal with it for better or worse. read ignatiev, read ted allen, warts and all its worth reckoning with, and then ESPECIALLY read DuBois. ironically (or maybe not bc he doesnt have as much baggage) DuBois gives the most objective account
>>1888079Because Leninists, radlibs and lifestyle anarchists have astroturf communism so the average person is understandably repulsed.
>>1888301And what is the correct form o wise one?
>>1888304Going direct to the source
>>1888305So you're a Marxist-Marxist. Incredible.
>>1888306Well if you want to understand what communism is without adjectives it would make them much more receptive to communism in general no matter the strain but people only have the popular culture to refer to in regards to how it has manifest.
>>1888306Non-ideological Marxism is where it's at
>>1888318that's not the point, people first have to understand what communism is not what's claiming to be communist instead of being an edgelord trapped in aesthetics.
>>1888293>it is certifiably insane to think that everyone or euro descent, or just the bad ones, can somehow be identified and retvrnedLet's be real, if the US government was overthrown by any socialist force, there's a considerable chunk of the white population that will flee for Europe voluntarily the same way Pied Noirs went back to France after the FLN's campaign
>>1888325Nta but communism is whatever I'm doing right now and you'd ALL better fall in line
>>1888125what a dumb thing to say.
>>1888329Communism In One Person was always the logical conclusion.
>>1888079Because gommunism is when you dont have freedumb.
>>1888086Not true at all. They are fanatically (classical) liberal.
>>1888079>Why exactly ARE Americans so terrified of communism?Well let's establish the premise: are they terrified of socialism?
Statistic polling (take salt) has shown that the word 'socialism' is approved of by at least a quarter of the population.
Pic unrel: it's UK equivalent of the Victims of Gommunism YouGov poll.Burgerreich citizens:0) Urban or rural? Red state or blue state?
1) Have you been openly socialist in public?
2) What were the reactions you received?
>>1888338inb4 'but its not real socialism!'
That's true and irrelevant. OP is talking about people being terrified of a myth, not the ideas behind
communism happyworkerism.
>>1888336>Not true at all. They are fanatically (classical) liberal.I mean that kind of proves my point. Americans may say that they're "classical liberals," or that they're "socially liberal and fiscally conservative," but aside from your Democratic activists I think you'd be hard pressed to find many Americans who openly admit to being followers of liberalism with no caveats. What I'm trying to say is that while many Americans may hold liberal views they view liberalism as an ideology itself as something abhorrent, basically a socialism-lite.
>>1888343Its ironic that americans think liberalism is socialism while being fanatically liberal. Democracy and freedom are classical liberalism.
>>1888334It's the only way to be sure.
>>1888348Does classical liberalism imply capitalism?
Does anarchism (or should we say, libertarianism) intersect with the fundamental ideals of liberalism?
>>1888356May the body overthrow the brain!
inb4 someone points out that that the human body is peak corporatism and therefore Fascism is human nature
>>1888348>americans think liberalism is socialismit's because american political lexicon evolved separately from brit/euro political lexicon. the words were inherited but their meanings were not. also the education system was always inferior and designed to stifle class consciousness. plus the ocean divorced the context that the words evolved in. americans only know "liberal" and "conservative". most of them don't know "bourgeois," "proletariat," "reactionary," "revolutionary," etc. They don't know what modes of production are because America was born with a freakish chimera mode of production that was simultaneously proto-capitalist and based in slavery. America never had hundreds of years of feudalism like Europe did, nor did it ever have an indigenous primitive communal mode. When Americans become away of anything revolutionary they lump it in with "liberals" because "liberals" were still revolutionary when America was born way back in 1776. When Americans become aware of anything reactionary they lump it in with "conservatives." They cannot understand that their political spectrum is limited to bourgeois political economy because they don't know what those words mean. Anarchists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Communists, Trade Unionists, Civil Rights Activism, Animal Rights Activism, Veganism, it's all seen as "liberalism" in America.
>>1888428Luxembourg was infantile in her stance towards Poland.
>>1888428Counterpoint - Rosa ended up in a ditch whilst Lenin and Stalin built socialism in many nations and provided the right of self determination to nations to settle the National Question and great nation Chauvinism
>>1888428Honestly, right-to-determinationfags, if push comes to shove will you support communist states or the countries they inevitably exploit to help them combat the entire NATO alliance?
>>1888446>Counterpoint - Rosa ended up in a ditch whilst Lenin- got shot.
Cold War?
I mean, if the CIA psychologically carpet bombed your country for decades, you'd probably hate communism too
>>1888485>countries they inevitably exploitnever happened and will never happen
>>1888654
They all got a decent pair of boots though which is something. Other people had to shair boots.
The Free Market Pravails!!!
Because they think ML revisionism is communism
cold war brainwashing of boomer generation with duck and cover, mccarthyism, etc.
>>1888654
You ain't fooling anyone with your Calvinoid social order simping, Lear
something something red scare
something something mccarthyism
something something you can't take muh freedoms (is not free at all)
The US government has been pumping the country with anti-Socialist propaganda for at least a good 6-7 decades at this point. Most people are completely unaware that a huge chunk, if not all the information they consume about socialist/communist nations from grade school and up is, top to bottom, intentionally falsified.
Americans are afraid of communism because they are quite literally programmed to be from birth. Undoing said programming can be actively painful for many of them and it is a project that honestly takes a pretty big amount of self awareness. The horrors and reality of "late stage capitalism" are finally starting to settle in for anyone that is even remotely paying attention, and what we are seeing now is a lashing out from people who misunderstand where the pain is coming from and who is causing it, so we have legions of conservatives having absolute meltdowns and being easily weaponized by Corpo-Fascists.
>>1888359>Does classical liberalism imply capitalism?Absolutely. Liberalism is the result of capitalism and not the other way around.
>Does anarchismAs a more progressive ideology yes.
>(or should we say, libertarianism)Libertarianism is just ultra liberalism.
>intersect with the fundamental ideals of liberalism?Yes.
>>1888359>Does classical liberalism imply capitalism?it implies the transition from feudalism and absolute monarchy, to capitalism and republicanism/constitutionalism
>>1888113its arguably the post civil war reconstruction/redemption period sharecropping was arguably semi feudal tenant farming anon. So america was semi feudal from 1865-1950 at least
Because "the left" is genuinely alien and antagonistic to common civic life
>>1888899true, my grandpa was a child laboring black sharecropper who ran away from home at 15, forged paperwork and lied his age to join the military, and ended up on the ground in the korean war
Because people dont seem to care that much about themselves or others, not because of human nature, but because that is how capitalism is. People can imagine the end of the world more easily than the end of capitalism
That’s because the liberal elites and neo conservatives have brainwash people to think that communism is bad
>>1888328Sure, but any circumstances that actually allowed for socialist revolution in the US would cause mass migrations of all sorts out of the country anyway before any potential victory
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