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File: 1718953760484.jpeg (394.17 KB, 1920x1080, IMG_1410.jpeg)

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What’s your opinion on Joseph Stalin what do you think he was a bad guy or not?
108 posts and 32 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 

>>1896438
>just how rife with opportunism the Communists were, because their philosophy is practically designed to promote it.
First part is just historical fact but what would you say is designed to promote it?

 

>>1896462
I don't particularly care for the "who was the best possible leader" game, because it is storytelling mostly for people who are ignorant about what was going on and why these men fought. I think any other leader, and Stalin pretty well consolidated his power by the mid 30s, would have been changed by the office, whatever they were in our history. Emperors make very different decisions from candidates. But, there would be differences. It's not like the USSR was a cult of personality held together by one man or fear of one man. The people feared the Party more than Big Meanie Stalin. If any leader spoke of surrender like a eugenist fag, they would have been strung up for treason and literally anyone would be drafted to lead the country. Too many people had too much to lose. I don't think any of the contenders who could have ruled the USSR were that fickle, and knew as well as anyone that they were going to have to fight for their existence, along with all of the people who had nowhere to go.

>>1896466
Take a philosophy that is dominated by contradiction, which says on the tin "this is made to destroy ideas". Said philosophy is an inversion of the most reactionary German philosophy and one that is corrosive and invades institutions specifically to supplant democracy. Someone who really studies history and knows what money, politics, and power are would be able to get it, but they'd pass up a chain of command that is given over to conspiracy and insinuation. That's not a good instrument for governing anything, or promoting the qualities of people who will be honest. Lenin is a rare species of man who could square that circle enough - knew what politics was but honestly believed he was righteous and the cause he fought for would win because good would triumph over something so obviously wicked, that didn't even bother to hide its evil and reveled in every minutae of it. That's how bad the oligarchy was. The problem is that humans didn't have it in them - that they really are that evil and this was never going to be a society worth living in, purely because those people chose to make it so, and insists it was stupid and poor people who were the source of the problem. That such a narrative succeeded is final proof that humans really are a failed and evil race worthy of being wiped out.

 

>>1896475
You'd have to get the ugliness of the human spirit to see how the version of communism that existed would turn out, and enough of these people were quite aware of what humans really were. But, I think even the most cynical grasper was surprised at the madness of those who really believe torture is the point and love it more than anything else in the world. They were also surprised at how easy it was for those people to find each other, and how an unshakeable faith in the power of torture united people like nothing else did. It really tells something about humans that this worked so effectively, and the resistance to it was scattered as easily as it was, with nearly no one willing to speak of what this really was. But, the intellectual opposition to this would have meant going against human history as we knew it. I only know now because I have a century of hindsight, where the aims of the rulers are now undeniable unless someone believes there is a secret plan and friend in the halls of power that will make the Bad Man go away. It was harder to see then how it would turn out. I also think the competent communists knew Marxism-Leninism wasn't a governing idea and were trying to find something workable, until they had to settle on pragmatism to win the war. Then Cornholio was just utterly submissive, and this is where a lot of ideologues don't get that the project was scuttled not by a political leader moving his mighty hand, but by the intellectuals who had no further use for the people, and who were already looking to the global society to come - one without pesky democracy or filthy poor people who were too stupid to live in that world.

 

Basically, if you know what eugenics is, you'd see how Marx's communism was pretty much designed to ensure socialism would be destroyed from within, and how it shared similarities to eugenics - because it was developed in tandem. Guy is sitting in London for a reason. If Marx wasn't aware of this fully, he was certainly purposed for that and wouldn't have minded that outcome of history. Guy was about power for people like him and certainly wasn't for the little guy.

 

That said, Marx has the distinction of being right about a great many things, and very clever in how he does what he does. He's not as stupid as the typical eugenist "philosopher" or Fabian asshole. He's the exact opposite - very intelligent and ruthless, and so his thinking or something like it would prevail over the idiotic ideas of the eugenist rank and file.

 

Somewhere along the line, the most basic concept of socialism was reversed, and turned into a struggle of classes - which effectively meant classes united against the despised lowest class, and ensured the lockout could begin.
It would have happened without Marx, since it was already happening, so I don't blame Marx for being the instigator or prime mover of evil. They were usually evil or very hopeful and naive about human potential for goodness. But, Marx certainly did a lot to encourage the breakdown of socialism, when a lot of the socialists were for the usual middle class program but wanted nice things like not killing each other in wars. There came to be less of that because like any middle class program, it was easy to infect with eugenism when the time came, and already carried that stink before the Galtonites consolidate their chokehold over the institutions.

 

>>1893590
> both are "keet" in Ukrainian
No they aren't
і ≠ и

 


 

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>>1891000
Overrated and Overhated.

Stalin undeservedly gets both praise and vittrol hurled at him. The man inherited an already flawed and overly beauraucratised system all the while having to deal with the reactionaries of the NKVD breathing down his neck.
He was complicit in a lot of the crimes that the soviet union did, but to argue that we had some totalitarian/ anti-democratic ruler is often an attribution labelled to him by butt hurt trots. He had a hand in combatting soviet beuaraucratization, which sadly failed.
https://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/clogic/article/download/191861/188830/218717

And yes I know
>Grover Furr
But nonetheless, the man quotes primary sources. There is at least a ground for argument.

Hell even the CIA- the biggest crooks, liars and anti-communists out there admitted to such.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf

Stalin usually gets critiqued for "mass repressions" but I think most of us know a lot of the numbers are grossly exaggerated (Black Book of Communism)

There is however a reason why Stalin is considered a national hero in Russia (but probably less of a socialist one), in the same way MLK is seen as a champion of American Civil rights in spite of him being incorrectly attributed as a pacifist. The bourgoise will distort the histories and lives of figures to suit their agenda. Like in spite of how Albert Einstein is promoted and commodified- do people know he was a socialist? In the case of Stalin in Russia the man is viewed and praised as a strongman who lead Russia into a golden age and against a legion of German Barbarians.

But it can't be denied that his contributions to Russia were at least in part due to him not wanting to rock the boat and keep on the Leninist tradition of industrialising, educating and progressing the soviet union from a flailing backwater feudal power to a relatively progressive industrial republic. He played it safe, ensuring that he wouldn't necessarily rock the boat internationally (which in hindsight, though it's understandable why he did it, it was in fact a silly move), ensuring Russia and the rest of the republics got back on their feet, and ensured that the NEP would be curbstomped.
He wasn't some visionary, he was given an instruction manual and he followed it to the best of his ability, all the while remaining a somewhat competent leader in a time where Russia and the other socialist republics were finding their footing.

However in terms of what we can actually attribute to him in which he did wrong- it's more of a fine line between complacency and direct policy- because as we mentioned- the Soviet Union was run collectively. To criticise Stalin is to criticise the soviet union as a whole. And keep in mind there are valid points of criticism- stalin, surprisingly enough, did wrong.

In terms of what he/ the soviet union did wrong:
>Had a hand in forming the state of Israel
https://www.leftvoice.org/how-joseph-stalin-helped-create-the-state-of-israel/
>Knowingly usurped the socialist factions of the spanish civil war and aided bourgoise republicans in suppressing them
https://socialistrevolution.org/the-spanish-civil-war-and-the-crimes-of-stalinism/
>Complicit in the ethnic deportation of Koreans, Volga Germans and Crimean Tartars (though the direct crime can be more attributed to Beria and the NKVD)
https://insidestory.org.au/crimea-the-tatars-and-russias-war/
https://wolgadeutsche.net/library/item/594
https://www.rbth.com/history/335870-volga-german-soviet-republic
https://globalvoices.org/2024/06/24/koryo-saram-the-long-and-tragic-story-of-koreans-in-russia/
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/07/13/ethnic_koreans_in_the_former_soviet_union_47685.html
>complicit in the USSRs homophobic laws
Yeah I know it's wikipedia but it has citations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_the_Soviet_Union

Stalins realpolitik cost the international communist movement majorly- socialism in one country cost a lot of communist movements dearly.
<but they were licking their wounds from the Nazis
that which they did, and it's understandable, but when you have countries such as Albania, Yugoslavia and fucking China- the latter of which went through Japanese occupation and a civil war- aiding communist fighters in Greece and Korea, it doesn't exactly look great on Stalins record. Would recommend listening to the blowback podcast for that.

I'd even argue that in relation to his purges- they didn't achieve the results that were needed. Revisionism and nationalists were still able to infiltrate the party and while Stalin certainly made an attempt to introduce further democratic reforms- he was ultimately hindered by the system that he inherited from Lenin and the other Bolsheviks that constructed it.

Is this to say we should hand waive stalin aside, of course not.
But it's to recognise that he's vastly overhated and overrated and that to criticise him isn't some liberal/ trotskyist/ fascist plot- in spite of what a lot of Stalinoid dickriders would have you believe.

The fact is, Stalin had a hand in crushing Nazi scum and had a hand in saving most of Europe from their clutches.
Stalin had a hand in ensuring the soviet union would be reconstructed turning it into the prosperous nation that would launch the first man into the man.

Stalin is just that- a man who isn't some bloodthirsty tyrant or some saint of socialism.

He is rather, as the youth of the 21st century would say: mid.

 

Shouldn't have stopped at Berlin. Should've killed more krauts.

 

>>1897137
>crimes that the soviet union did

What crimes? Post the list, we will decide whether you are a reactionary or just a dumbo believing anticommunist propaganda without any proof

 

>>1897282
>>1897137
>Israel
Seriously?

>Complicit in the ethnic deportation of Koreans, Volga Germans and Crimean Tartars (though the direct crime can be more attributed to Beria and the NKVD)

Oh, so deportations (actually evacuations) were a crime? What, you mean Soviets should have left potentially traitorous populations in the reach of enemy armies and let them just like do their terrorist stuff? Preventing mass suffering is now somehow a crime, lmao

>complicit in the USSRs homophobic laws

Oh no, not the gays. What next, are you going to accuse Stalin of being a transphobe?

Come on, list all the crimes. Do it.

>socialism in one country cost a lot of communist movements dearly.

Why is USSR responsible for failures of entities independent of USSR? Even in Comintern USSR did not have the strongest voice, lmao, and when Soviets tried to remove IIRC Polish guy from being in charge of Polish Communist Party that guy just lobbied himself back into power

Overall rating for now: 1/4 reactionary, 3/4 idiot

 

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>>1897282
I listed them in the whole section
>In terms of what he/the soviet union did wrong.
Can't you read?


>>1897324
>israel seriously?
Yes. Read the article linked.

>Oh, so deportations (actually evacuations) were a crime? What, you mean Soviets should have left potentially traitorous populations in the reach of enemy armies and let them just like do their terrorist stuff? Preventing mass suffering is now somehow a crime, lmao

Collective punishment is a war crime. Or have you not been keeping up with what Israel (which the soviet union helped create) is doing to the Palestinians.
Again, these ideas of collective punishment were wrong then and wrong now.

>Oh no, not the gays. What next, are you going to accuse Stalin of being a transphobe?Come on, list all the crimes. Do it.

Persecuting people on the basis of sexuality and considering them pedos is bad, actually. Already listed the crimes. Not my fault you dismiss the resources without any proper refutations. All you've just done is say
>oh so stalin did these bad things, so what?

>Overall rating for now: 1/4 reactionary, 3/4 idiot

We get it, you're a dipshit UNI student who picks fights with anarchists on twitter.
Grow the fuck up and read. The only reactionary idiot here is you.

 

>>1897324
Stop being silly, that's just embarassing

 

>>1897342
You're enormously fucking based my dude, i was sick of the fucking Stalin discussion myself.

 

>>1897342
>Collective punishment is a war crime. Or have you not been keeping up with what Israel (which the soviet union helped create) is doing to the Palestinians.
>Again, these ideas of collective punishment were wrong then and wrong now.
Evacuation isn't punishment! :)

 

>>1898076
NO BORDERS
NO NATIONS
STOP THE DEPORTATIONS

 

>>1898076
Based Israelis only want to evacuate Palestine people to Jordan

 

>>1897137
Good analysis. He was just a mid politician who inhereted a failed socialist revolution in Europe and retreated into nation-building, at the detriment of socialist movements in other countries.

 

>>1897137
Incredibly based and informative response, thanks Anon.

 

He was the most successful murderer of communists we've ever seen. Murdered the majority of the old bolsheviks.

I guess there was no other course after the German revolution failed. Still, pretty sad.

 

>>1898175
Waoh he must've had a lot of free time to kill this many people. Dude had a gun in his hand 24/7

 

>>1898105
>n who inhereted a failed socialist revolution in Europe and retreated into nation-building, at the detriment of socialist movements in other countries.
what he should had done different tho, sacrifice the USSR for the CHANCE of a revolution in other countries ?.

 

>>1897342
>Read the article linked.

It's retarded. Immigration doesn't hurt anyone, but then you people are becoming reactionary over Jews migrating to Israel. Settler state? Oh, that's criminal, alright. Who would have fucking thought that Jews would become Nazis eventually?

>Collective punishment is a war crime.


There is no collective punishment, you idiot. Punishment implies those people were repressed. Do you consider slavs and jews getting evacuated from the Western USSR a collective punishment, too? What about population exchanges? Stop being idiotic. YAY, LET'S KEEP PEOPLE ROOTED TO THEIR PLACE EVEN IF IT WILL LEAD TO GREATER BLOODSHED, because BOURGEOIS law says it's BAAAAAD to move people around, even if people themselves are happy with the changes

>Persecuting people on the basis of sexuality and considering them pedos is bad, actually


???????????????
You are accusing Stalin of 1) not being heavy handed enough as to overrule Soviet democracy 2) of not being clairvoyant enough to foresee that in the future psychiatry, i.e. all the authoritative sources, would stop thinking that gay is a disease. This is idiotic, again

<no socialism in one country explanation


So, you agree that you were a retard over this one, then?

>I listed them in the whole section


That's all your gripes with Stalin? Stalin not being a prophet, and then treating evacuation, i.e. saving lives, as a genocide because Westoids told you so? Fuck you, seriously

 

>>1898103
Who's doing the murder? Israelis
Why are they wanting to move Palestinians away? Because Israel wants to steal their land
Will the "evacuation" save lives? Hell fucking no, there are no accomodations for Palestinians there anyway
Will Palestinians retain their political rights in their exile? Again, no

Why do you retards keep treating Soviet evacuations as if Soviets wanted to genocide the moved people? Soviets were PROTECTING SOVIET PEOPLE, INCLUDING THOSE WHO WERE MOVED.

>inb4 "communist" quoting small nation nationalists in regards to people dying on the trains, and corpses dumped off the side of the railroads in the hundreds of thousands, with no corpses found to this day

>while those same small nation nationalists also try to suck off dead Hitler's dick and claim he tried to liberate small nations from Soviet oppression

Come on, do it. I know you want to claim that deportations caused immense genocide on the deported

 

>>1899119
It was ethnic cleansing man, not all of it even happened during any wars or whatever

 

>>1899120
It wasn't, stop slurping down anticommunist propaganda

Oh no, not during the war! I mean, you know about the afterwar famine? You know about the "partisans" Nazis have left behind, supported by the Westoids afterwards?

Oh, and banditry. Consult the following pic, and also realize that bandits from back then were even more vicious than today's Ukrainian Nazis. If today's Ukrainian Nazis have at least a decency to put people on trial for "betraying" Ukraine, back then they burned whole fucking villages of Ukrainians for "betraying the nation". That's how ethnic mafias and banditry operate, they are a fucking blight on their nationals, and nationals are LIBERATED by bandits getting killed. So, Soviets moved nationals away from bandits' affected areas, and bandits fucking STARVED to death without food and recruits. It happened in Caucasus, it happened in West Ukraine, in happened in the Baltics. That's why worshippers of SS Galicia fucking HATE IT to this day

 

>>1899120
>>1899127
Next. Why did Soviets were ethnically cleansing small nations while letting them have votes in local and country elections? They weren't blocked from writing letters wherever, they weren't blocked from printing their own press, they fucking ran for mayors in their new regions, ffs. New places employed their teachers to teach their language, even.

Why were Soviets so fucking unconcerned by small nations' customs, language and whatever, as if they fucking didn't care for small nations' revenge against the oppressor? And there was no revenge either, as if small nations themselves did not consider it a punishment

HMMMMMMM

 

>>1899113
>I read the article, it's retarded.
>Immigration doesn't hurt anyone.
Only one ousting yourself here as an idiot is you because it covers more than "immigration". It's VERY clear you didn't read.

From the article
<The Soviet Union gave diplomatic recognition to Israel on May 17, 1948, just three days after its declaration of independence. It was the first state in the world to do so — long before the United States.
<The CPUSA and associated publications for Jewish people had always rejected Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state. When the Zionist “union” in Palestine, the Histadrut, tried to boycott Palestinian workers, the American communists referred to it — correctly — as a “Jim Crow” institution. The CPUSA, despite its Stalinist politics, had a proud tradition of struggle against racism — and it denounced the racism of the Zionist colonization project.

<In 1947, however, the Soviet Union surprised the world by announcing that it would support the UN plan for partitioning Palestine and creating a Jewish state.


<Stalin’s shift to support for Zionism was vital — one could say that Israel might not exist in its current form had the Soviet Union not offered its backing. Historians suspect that Stalin hoped to weaken the position of British imperialism in the region — perhaps he saw the Jewish colonists as a kind of national liberation movement. But in reality, the prediction of all serious Marxists came true: the new Jewish state became a gendarme for imperialism.


<Soviet support for Israel was not limited to diplomatic means, either. Via Czechoslovakia, the Soviet block sent arms to the Zionist militia Haganah, which used them to begin the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. In other words, Stalin gave material support for the Nakba. The Soviet-aligned Communist Party, the MAKI, became an important conduit of support for establishing the Zionist state.


So just to be clear the man had a hand in arming and recognising a settler colonial ethno-state which was hellbent on killing Palestenians and genociding them- this is what the whole NAKBA was founded on, and Stalin, idiot that he was decided to support it

<There is no collective punishment, you idiot. Punishment implies those people were repressed. Do you consider slavs and jews getting evacuated from the Western USSR a collective punishment, too? What about population exchanges? Stop being idiotic. YAY, LET'S KEEP PEOPLE ROOTED TO THEIR PLACE EVEN IF IT WILL LEAD TO GREATER BLOODSHED, because BOURGEOIS law says it's BAAAAAD to move people around, even if people themselves are happy with the changes.


Despite, again, evidence contradicting your views, and once again, proving that you don't fucking read. I suppose we should state that Israel isn't committing war crimes because those too are framed under the category of bourgoise law.
Once again, the Stalin dickrider does the whole
<well Stalin did it, so what?

This wasn't a populating exchange, this was a forced deportation and liquidation of their republic and was done with the intent of collective punishment as stated by the NKVD. Here's some more sources which you'll no doubt not read and call "bourgoise propaganda" that clearly point out collective punishment, which, remember is a war crime.

And again, this also carries onto the Volga Germans. Translated from the article linked (which again, you totally read):

<According to reliable information received by the military authorities, among the German population living in the Volga region there are thousands and tens of thousands of saboteurs and spies who, on a signal given from Germany, are to carry out explosions in the areas inhabited by the Volga Germans.


<None of the Germans living in the Volga region reported to the Soviet authorities about the presence of such a large number of saboteurs and spies among the Volga Germans, and consequently, the German population of the Volga regions hides in their midst the enemies of the Soviet people and Soviet power.


<In the event of acts of sabotage initiated by German saboteurs and spies on the orders of Germany in the Volga German Republic or adjacent areas, and bloodshed occurs, the Soviet Government, in accordance with the laws of wartime, will be compelled to take punitive measures against the entire German population of the Volga region.


<In order to avoid such undesirable phenomena and to prevent serious bloodshed, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. recognized the necessity of resettling the entire German population living in the Volga regions to other regions so that the resettlees would be given land and that they would be provided with state assistance in settling in the new areas.


<Areas of the Novosibirsk and Omsk regions, the Altai Territory, Kazakhstan and other neighboring areas, abounding in arable land, have been allocated for resettlement. In connection with this, the State Defense Committee was ordered to urgently resettle all the Germans of the Volga region and to endow the resettled Volga Germans with land and land in the new areas.

<Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme of the Council of the USSR M. Kalinin Secretary of the Presidium of the Supreme of the Council of the USSR A. Gorkin

>inb4 but they were allowed to re-settle with aid of the government

THIS JUST IN FOLKS, THE RESERVATIONS FOR INDIGENOUS AMERICANS WHO WERE FORCED OFF THEIR LAND AND FORCED TO LIVE ON WEREN'T VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE! Never mind how Cherokee people were allocated land to "farm on". That makes it a-okay! No ethnic deportation whatsoever
I guess the indigenous Australians who are """"supported by the Australian government""""" aren't victims of genocide either!


The moustached fuckwit was complacent in ethnic deportations.
COPE

This just in folks: war-crimes and collective punishment and ethnic deportation are a-ok because "something something bourgoise law"

>You are accusing Stalin of 1) not being heavy handed enough as to overrule Soviet democracy 2) of not being clairvoyant enough to foresee that in the future psychiatry, i.e. all the authoritative sources, would stop thinking that gay is a disease. This is idiotic, again

Again, more evidence you don't read. I stated he was complicit in it, in the same way that Joe Biden's complicit in the same way how trans and LGBTQ people are being treated in the USA- what with hundreds of anti-trans/gay bills that are still being put in affect. And again, Stalin to his credit tried to introduce further democratic reforms. Where did you get this fuckwit strawman visage of my argument.
It's almost as if you didn't read the articles linked

>>1899129
Kind of hard to defend that when the Soviets dissolved these republics for these ethnic minorities- you know the republics which were established to protect them and ensure they had autonomy.
Clearly, someone hasn't read Lenin and the national question. But then again, considering you don't read at all, this isn't exactly hard.

>>1899127

>Oh, and banditry.

<muh banditry
We're not talking about the banditry that occurred in the Ukraine you fuckwit, we're talking about the Crimean Tartars and Volga Germans. I'd talk about the Koreans but it's clear that seeing as you haven't read about the previous two groups, or no groups at all it diminishes the purpose.

>Consult the following pic, and also realize that bandits from back then were even more vicious than today's Ukrainian Nazis. If today's Ukrainian Nazis have at least a decency to put people on trial for "betraying" Ukraine, back then they burned whole fucking villages of Ukrainians for "betraying the nation".

But again, we're not talking about the Ukranians dude, stick on topic.

<That's how ethnic mafias and banditry operate, they are a fucking blight on their nationals, and nationals are LIBERATED by bandits getting killed. So, Soviets moved nationals away from bandits' affected areas, and bandits fucking STARVED to death without food and recruits. It happened in Caucasus, it happened in West Ukraine, in happened in the Baltics. That's why worshippers of SS Galicia fucking HATE IT to this day

Again, you talk about "banditry" but at the end of the day, you're using a buzzword. The intent spelled out by the soviet union was clear- collective punishment on the belief that the population was in collaboration with the Nazi party.

And as mentioned, collective punishment is a war crime. If you don't think any of this is wrong, you may as well be siding with Israel when they target Palestenian non-combatants.

 

>>1899129
>Next. Why did Soviets were ethnically cleansing small nations while letting them have votes in local and country elections? They weren't blocked from writing letters wherever, they weren't blocked from printing their own press, they fucking ran for mayors in their new regions, ffs. New places employed their teachers to teach their language, even.
Yes, and Im sure Australia isn't committing genocide on our Indigenous Population!
I mean after all, we teach their history in our schools, their language is being taught, and of course they're allowed to vote in our elections!
No genocide here! No Siree!
Fuckwit.

 

File: 1719636409670.jpg (947.72 KB, 2048x1152, antinatoaktion.jpg)

>>1899146
<fedjacketing
Ok, kid.

 

>>1899143
>Radio Liberty
>"important memoirs" and "oral testimonies"

Stop being a reactionary, lmao

>Stalin supported Zionism

<support the UN plan for partitioning Palestine and creating a Jewish state
You really, really want to see Stalin as establishing Israel, aren't you? Like what, will you pretend that UN plan of partition into two states, with recognition of both, isn't and wasn't the only real solution?

>Via Czechoslovakia, the Soviet block sent arms

Amazing level of proofs.

>This wasn't a populating exchange, this was a forced deportation and liquidation of their republic and was done with the intent of collective punishment as stated by the NKVD

>intent of collective punishment as stated by the NKVD

Ah, you mean from the fake that nobody ever saw in the archives ever again after that one publication by virulent anticommunists? Cool

This is what the Beria's letter only source:
>Бугай Н.Ф. Операция «Улусы». Элиста: Калмыцкое кн. изд-во, 1991. С. 151–152.

Anticommunists aren't a real source for anybody, that's why they try to weasel in fakes, that almost always look something like "hurrdurr i admit to wanting to kill all those innocent people in the millions"

>According to reliable information received by the military authorities, among the German population living in the Volga region there are thousands and tens of thousands of saboteurs and spies who, on a signal given from Germany, are to carry out explosions in the areas inhabited by the Volga Germans.

No, in Russian, it's a completely different sentence, and it's an incredibly wrong-sounding sentence. "according to military rulers", not authorities. No such authoritiries/rulers are mentioned, and the whole idea of "explosions" to be carried out is ridiculous. Hence, fake

>Areas of the Novosibirsk and Omsk regions, the Altai Territory, Kazakhstan and other neighboring areas, abounding in arable land, have been allocated for resettlement. In connection with this, the State Defense Committee was ordered to urgently resettle all the Germans of the Volga region and to endow the resettled Volga Germans with land and land in the new areas.

>State Defense Committee

Oh, but I thought it was the NKVD that resettled people? But it can't be that people in charge of the archives during and after the dissolution of USSR were just falsifying evidence, nooo, it was all truth!

>THE RESERVATIONS

Oh, you mean that Indians were resettled with all their cattle and livelihoods intact, on the newly developed American land that still lacked workers? Amazing analysis as always, you brainlet

>I stated he was complicit in it

Complicit in what, you idiot? In not being tyrannical despot to overrule scientific consensus at the time, which also influenced political and social consensus? Stop being retarded

>we're talking about the Crimean Tartars and Volga Germans. I'd talk about the Koreans but it's clear that seeing as you haven't read about the previous two groups, or no groups at all it diminishes the purpose.


Which all had banditry and spies. Principle is the same

>The intent spelled out by the soviet union was clear


There was no such intent. All proofs of such intent are later day fakes, worded wrongly, misattributed, with ridiculous premises

>>1899144
>bourgeois state does something that looks similar and is regarded as genocide, therefore Soviets doing resettlements done in a super good manner are also genocide!

I remember kurdish retards screeching about Assad constructing a dam and resettling people around because of new farmlands created because of that dam. Kurds spent not a fucking ounce of labor on that dam, and yet they had the audacity to claim the entire new farmland for themselves, claiming that they were genocided, and that the dam itself was constructed for the purposes of ethnic cleansing

 

>>1899153
>stop being a reactionary, lmao
Unless you have any other source that claims otherwise, the point still stands. Post counter source or fuck off.
And where exactly is this "radio liberty"? Looking through the sources, I don't see it linked unless your ever-so observent eyes can show us :3

>You really, really want to see Stalin as establishing Israel, aren't you? Like what, will you pretend that UN plan of partition into two states, with recognition of both, isn't and wasn't the only real solution?

The real solution wasn't establishing Israel in the first place- most Communist entities as well as other Jewish people didn't look upon the establishment of Israel as a good thing. Again, no need to "see" Stalin establishing Israel, he DID help establish Israel. But again, your failure to engage with evidence and just dismiss it with buzzwords and screaming "it's fake" is laughable.

>Ah, you mean from the fake that nobody ever saw in the archives ever again after that one publication by virulent anticommunists? Cool

Well if it's fake, why not prove it? Alll you can do is just scream "it's anti-communist propaganda". If the black book of communism can be refuted with actual evidence and analysis and counter evidence, why can't you?

>No, in Russian, it's a completely different sentence, and it's an incredibly wrong-sounding sentence. "according to military rulers", not authorities. No such authoritiries/rulers are mentioned, and the whole idea of "explosions" to be carried out is ridiculous. Hence, fake

>Oh, but I thought it was the NKVD that resettled people? But it can't be that people in charge of the archives during and after the dissolution of USSR were just falsifying evidence, nooo, it was all truth!

Who do you think gave said intelligence and advice- as covered by the population transfer of the Crimean Tartars. Not hard to put two and two together. Again, if you're actually able to prove that these documents themselves were falsified, let's hear them!

>Oh, you mean that Indians were resettled with all their cattle and livelihoods intact, on the newly developed American land that still lacked workers? Amazing analysis as always, you brainlet

AND HE OUTS HIMSELF AS A GENOCIDE APOLOGIST!
Ethnic deportation is still ethnic deportation.

>Complicit in what, you idiot? In not being tyrannical despot to overrule scientific consensus at the time, which also influenced political and social consensus? Stop being retarded


Scientific consensus my ass, there were plenty of people who realised that trans/homosexual people weren't mentally diseased or fascist in nature- prime example being

<The 1923 report from the People's Commissariat for Health entitled The Sexual Life of Contemporary Youth, authored by Izrail Gel'man, which stated: "Science has now established, with precision that excludes all doubt, that homosexuality is not ill will or crime but sickness. The world of a female or male homosexual is perverted, it is alien to the normal sexual attraction that exists in a normal person"

The official stance from the late 1920s could be summarised in an article of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia of 1930 written by medical expert Sereisky (based on a report written in the 1920s):

<Soviet legislation does not recognise so-called crimes against morality. Our laws proceed from the principle of protection of society and therefore countenance punishment only in those instances when juveniles and minors are the objects of homosexual interest … while recognizing the incorrectness of homosexual development … our society combines prophylactic and other therapeutic measures with all the necessary conditions for making the conflicts that afflict homosexuals as painless as possible and for resolving their typical estrangement from society within the collective

— Sereisky, Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 1930, p. 593

So again, you don't know what you're talking about.
https://archive.org/details/hiddenfromhisto000dube

>Which all had banditry and spies. Principle is the same

Even if this was the case, doesn't justify ethnic deportations and collective punishment- and they were deported on those grounds in the proof that you didn't read.

>There was no such intent. All proofs of such intent are later day fakes, worded wrongly, misattributed, with ridiculous premises

Despite the fact that it was, and the only counter argument you can give was "it's fake" and "muh propaganda"
Prove that they're fakes.

>>1899153
Ah now it makes sense, Are you the fuckwit who said the Arab belt wasn't ethnic cleansing? We got nothing more to talk about if this is the case.

 

>>1899169
And again, for primary sources- if there wasn't an ethnic deportation, why did Kruschev and the governing body of the USSR apologise for it and worked to give reperations for said people? Could it be that they actually KNEW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT AND PRIVY TO IT?

Or you going to dickride Stalin even further and start seething over Kruschev?

https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/soviet-massive-deportations-chronology.html

 

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>>1899169
>Unless you have any other source
I am the source much more authoritative than Radio Liberty. Fuck you

>The real solution wasn't establishing Israel in the first place

"If we ignore it maybe it won't happen"

>Well if it's fake, why not prove it?

I've proven it, though

>Who do you think gave said intelligence and advice

Who? You retards can't seem to grasp the idea of academic forgeries and sensationalist research. Academia, popular pressure and spies demand documents that say this and that, and "authoritative sources" start digging up the required documents. Falsifications are fucking ripe in such a field.

For example, Crimean Tatar "ethnic cleansing" is proven by State Committee of Defence sending a letter to Stalin. You know, when Stalin was a member of State Committee of Defence. Oh, OF COURSE it's a real document that totally happened, it has all the correct markings on it! Except for the absolute idiocy of the very fact of such document existing

And that document is the "proof" that deportations were done against the whole people in a punitive way, and that the whole people supported nationalist bandits, and that nationalist bandits numbered in the tens of thousands (out of hundred thousand total population).

>Ethnic deportation is still ethnic deportation.

You retard just keep on screaming and screeching without producing any actual arguments

>while recognizing the incorrectness of homosexual development

?????????????????????

>doesn't justify ethnic deportations and collective punishment- and they were deported on those grounds

They weren't. Only sources to the contrary are anticommunist fanfiction

>Prove that they're fakes.

I did. You can cry all you want about it, reality won't change

>le arab belt

See? Retards are easily swayed by scary words. Despite the fucking fact that kurdish nationalists have REPEATEDLY raped kurds, idiot still clings to the idea that national banditry, nationalists, are friends of their nations. Let me fucking guess, you think that kurdish nationalists giving oil away to Americans was justified for the protection of kurds, but then you also probably think that if kurdish nationalists got their hands on the farmlands around the dam, they wouldn't have sold it to Blackrock or some such for "protection" against evil arab oppressors, RIIIIIIIGHT?

 

>>1899172
>why did Kruschev and the governing body of the USSR apologise for it and worked to give reperations for said people

Because Khruschev did destalinization and was desperate to find any crimes of Stalin at all. We all remember how it started - from Khruschev accusing Stalin of having a cult of personality, and then down the line they "discovered" all sorts of crimes, from Lysenko to deportations. It's a very hilarious shit, if you actually have the historical understanding of history instead of hysterical like you do

 

>>1899178
>I am the source much more authoritative than Radio Liberty. Fuck you
Again, where did I link radio liberty? You haven't even provided a screen cap of that! It's really easy, dude. I'll recind my use for that source, but again- if you're not going to provide counter evidence to counter the claim- the point still stands.

>"If we ignore it maybe it won't happen"

Not remotely at all what I was stating- the Palestenians were being murdered and the USSR STILL decided to support Israel both in arms and material, a part of the proof you haven't engaged with.

>I've proven it, though

You haven't though. You pointed out some language translation inconsistencies and that's about it. And given your constant illiteracy and refusal to engage with evidence you still have yet to provide counter evidence/ documents or any legal proof that what was saying such a crime wasn't committed. You've only just thrown around buzzwords and screamed "le propaganda"

>Who? You retards can't seem to grasp the idea of academic forgeries and sensationalist research. Academia, popular pressure and spies demand documents that say this and that, and "authoritative sources" start digging up the required documents. Falsifications are fucking ripe in such a field.

Defelcftion, Deflection, Deflection, again, if these are false PROVIDE EVIDENCE THESE DOCUMENTS WERE FALSIFIED. THAT MEANS PROVIDING ACTUAL PROOF AND NOT SAYING NUH UH WHICH IS WHAT YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY DONE, YOU GENOCIDE APOLOGIST PIECE OF SHIT

>For example, Crimean Tatar "ethnic cleansing" is proven by State Committee of Defence sending a letter to Stalin. You know, when Stalin was a member of State Committee of Defence. Oh, OF COURSE it's a real document that totally happened, it has all the correct markings on it! Except for the absolute idiocy of the very fact of such document existing

Again, you're proving anything to actually talk of said document being falsified- you have no proof to prove that it was.

>And that document is the "proof" that deportations were done against the whole people in a punitive way, and that the whole people supported nationalist bandits, and that nationalist bandits numbered in the tens of thousands (out of hundred thousand total population).

Again, with the bandits. Kruschev, a man who was Stalins contemporary was able to point out these deportations were criminal, and again, there's still documents that proove the intent- documents which you've still yet to prove as being false.

>You retard just keep on screaming and screeching without producing any actual arguments

Projection

>?????????????????????

Not an argument, soviet contemporaries knew homosexuality wasn't a diseases, as did others around the world at the time.

>They weren't. Only sources to the contrary are anticommunist fanfiction

You keep saying that word. I don't think you actually know what it means. The sources that I linked "left voice" and "socialistrevolution" as seen here
>>1897137
Are hardly anti-communist. Anti-stalinist, sure, but hardly anti-communist. Again, showing your illiteracy and your paranoia.

>I did. You can cry all you want about it, reality won't change

<proceeds to cry and shit himself over the arab belt and starts shifting the goal posts about irrelevent shit and starts painting all kurds as agents for imperialism
Nice projection, dummy. And racism to boot!

>Because Khruschev did destalinization and was desperate to find any crimes of Stalin at all.

Except the crimes of ethnic deportation :3
>We all remember how it started - from Khruschev accusing Stalin of having a cult of personality, and then down the line they "discovered" all sorts of crimes, from Lysenko to deportations.
Discovered? Dude they knew about it. Kruschev was a slimy political opportunist but he was right to point out the shit the USSR did under Stalin- including the ethnic deportation.

>It's a very hilarious shit, if you actually have the historical understanding of history instead of hysterical like you do

Given your outright historical revisionism, rejection of proof and overall illiteracy, and buzzword spouting the only hysterical, racist, homophobic and genocide apologising idiot here is you. We're done here.

 

Stalin wasn’t his name, he was of Georgian descent and was pretty patriotic about being Georgian, he adopted Stalin because most of his work saw him in Russia rather than his home.

 

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>>1899209
>Again, where did I link radio liberty?
>>1899143

>nuh uh you didn't prove that those documents are fake because you didn't provide any evidence!

I am an authoritative source, therefore my own research is substantative enough. Cope, seethe, whatever.

>soviet contemporaries knew homosexuality wasn't a diseases

<while recognizing the incorrectness of homosexual development

>The sources that I linked "left voice" and "socialistrevolution"

Social-democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. Not surprising in the slightest that they spout anticommunist nonsense

>le heckin based kurds

Armenian nationalists caused massive repressions against Armenians in Turkey and a genocide because they did a terror bombing campaing in Istanbul. Kurdish nationalists are the worst enemies of Kurds exactly the same way. Parroting their narratives is a path towards genocide of Kurds

>Kruschev was a slimy political opportunist but he was right


Nah. Khruschev just lied

>Given your outright historical revisionism, rejection of proof and overall illiteracy, and buzzword spouting the only hysterical, racist, homophobic and genocide apologising idiot here is you. We're done here.

<bourgeois academia on my side, therefore you are wrong

Every fucking time with those idiots

 

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>>1899221
Oh, and in regards to deaths in transit for deported peoples. I guess retarded small nation nationalists don't know the basic fact that people die from old age naturally :^)

 

>>1899221
>I am an authoritative source, therefore my own research is substantative enough. Cope, seethe, whatever.


Sir yes sir, you are a very authoritative source.

 

>>1899229
You've seen how that retard pivoted towards "what's yer source then?" against my argument, with the implication that Radio Liberty, when quoted by socdems, is a real source, and I have to somehow substantiate my opposition to Radio Liberty as a source?

I am authoritative, because fuck those retards who instead of arguing just mindlessly quote bourgeois academia. My research, that's not in any book, IS authoritative enough to any thinking person. Science is not about quoting, it's about following logic

 

>>1899221
>citing an academic who cited radio liberty is therefore using radio liberty as a source.
Again, this doesn't necessarily detract from the other sources that were used- and the academic does compare and contrast the proof used.

Just because he chooses the evidence of radio free liberty to measure statistics doesn't mean that said deportations didn't happen- which they did. Still yet to provide counter evidence to the USSRs arming of Israel and the source that disproves the intent outside of "propaganda".

>while recognizing the incorrectness of homosexual development

What's incorrect about homosexuality? And what incorrectness about homosexual development? Stalin re-criminalised homosexuality inspite of his contemporaries arguing against such actions.

>Social-democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. Not surprising in the slightest that they spout anticommunist nonsense


From LeftVoice:
https://www.leftvoice.org/who-we-are/
>We are anti-imperialists and internationalists. We oppose bombs, borders, sanctions, coups, and the entire imperialist machine, as well as the political parties who build and fund them. We also believe that we must build an international organization, which is why Left Voice is part of the Trotskyist Fraction internationally and part of the La Izquierda Diario news network.

From Socialist Revolution
https://socialistrevolution.org/join/
>Communists must study Marxist ideas, the only set of ideas which can explain the crisis of capitalism scientifically. Communism is not just a good idea or an identity. Communists dedicate their lives to conquering Marxist ideas, intervening in the class struggle, and fighting for revolution. We proudly stand on the ideas of genuine Marxism, represented by Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Trotsky.Marxism is “scientific socialism,” a way of understanding the world, in order to change it. We begin by analyzing the real developments that are taking place under capitalism, and the forces which drive the system into crisis.

>Trotskyists are social democrats now

Look, trots can be spiteful little shits but they're a far cry from being "social democrats"

>Armenian nationalists caused massive repressions against Armenians in Turkey and a genocide because they did a terror bombing campaing in Istanbul. Kurdish nationalists are the worst enemies of Kurds exactly the same way. Parroting their narratives is a path towards genocide of Kurds

Can you stay on topic please, or are you going to continue your incoherent drivel?

>Nah. Khruschev just lied

And still, no proof that said documents were falsified. The best you've got is the author comparing numbers between the official soviet archives and radio liberty and deciding to go with radio liberty.

>bourgeois academia on my side, therefore you are wrong

You also keep using this word, don't think you know what it means, lad. Again, just because something is bourogise in origin such as law regarding war crimes doesn't mean it doesn't hold any weight. If someone murdered/raped someone even under a bourgoise country that doesn't detract from the rape/murder because "the laws are bourgoise".

>Every fucking time with those idiots

<Im not owned, Im not owned

Yeah, because you totally didn't look like a total schizo throughout this entire argument, lol.

 

>>1899239
>You've seen how that retard pivoted towards "what's yer source then?" against my argument, with the implication that Radio Liberty, when quoted by socdems, is a real source, and I have to somehow substantiate my opposition to Radio Liberty as a source?
I deliberately asked you to provide counter evidence, counter evidence mind you which you still have yet to provide- granted, Radio Liberty absolutely should be taken with a grain of salt- but the academic was also using this source in comparisson with official soviet statistics- he decided to favour radio liberty.
Now, the crux of your task, which you FAILED TO DO is to provide counter evidence that there was no intention/ no deportation.
The only thing you've been able to do is scream "nuh uh propaganda"- and provide no evidence that these documents are falsified. If you can prove that there was no intention- do so. But the problem is given the overwhelming evidence as well the Soviet Union's own admission and actual effort to pay reperation to these wounded parties- it's very clear that such ethnic deportations took place.

>I am authoritative,

You're not, lol
>because fuck those retards who instead of arguing just mindlessly quote bourgeois academia.
Again, if you actually had authority, you'd provide evidence on these documents provided BEING FABRICATIONS. The only thing you were able to provide in relation to radio liberty was the number count- but again, this was in comparisson to the number of deportees DOCUMENTED BY THE SOVIET UNION- which means there was a deportation.
>My research, that's not in any book, IS authoritative enough to any thinking person. Science is not about quoting, it's about following logic.
Yeah by making observations and acting on the evidence observed, evidence mind you which you have yet to provide and evidence which you continue to dismiss.

The only fuckwit in the room here is you. :3

 

>>1899240
>>1899246
>but the academic was also using this source in comparisson with official soviet statistics- he decided to favour radio liberty.
Dude, fuck off with your academic. It's a retard who doesn't even realize that the baseline death rate from old age and diseases exists and quotes deaths from transit "admitted" by Soviets as some kind of a smoking gun evidence

>What's incorrect about homosexuality?

I dunno, you kept bringing up how Soviets science supposedly admitted that homosexuality was normal and not an illness or whatever. Yet your own source said that Soviets did not in fact thought about it the way you do

>Stalin re-criminalised

Stalin? As in, personally? So, we circle back to my initial argument about why you are a retard for thinking that Stalin wasn't tyrannical despot enough to overrule Soviet science

>Left Voice is part of the Trotskyist Fraction

>We proudly stand on the ideas of genuine Marxism, represented by Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Trotsky
<Look, trots can be spiteful little shits but they're a far cry from being "social democrats"
Same shit, lapping up same propaganda. Socdems are a moderate wing of fascism, trots are their inside guys

>Armenian nationalists caused massive repressions against Armenians in Turkey and a genocide because they did a terror bombing campaing in Istanbul. Kurdish nationalists are the worst enemies of Kurds exactly the same way. Parroting their narratives is a path towards genocide of Kurds

Repeat after me: Kurdish nationalism is a disease, Palestinian nationalism is a disease, Israeli nationalism is a disease, insertname nationalism is a disease

>no proof that said documents were falsified

I've literally pointed out that the Beria's document is nonsensical because it was a report from the defence committee to it's member. And the other one gave said defence committee an order to carry out "ethnic cleansing" when NKVD were the ones who carried evacuation out in reality

>If someone murdered/raped someone even under a bourgoise country that doesn't detract from the rape/murder because "the laws are bourgoise".

You are an idiot who doesn't understand the arguments being made. Bourgeois academia is the retarded system of proof you are using where I have to find a source within bourgeois academia for you to feel satisfied, where you refuse my logic on the basis of it being my logic, not on the basis of it being wrong logic

Hence, I am an authoritative source that's better than the whole of bourgeois academia. Suck on it

>if you actually had authority, you'd provide evidence

I did numerous times. You are being a retard who doesn't understand how logic works.

>number of deportees DOCUMENTED BY THE SOVIET UNION- which means there was a deportation.

I didn't deny deportations, lmao. You retard keep on trying to sneak in false documents (falsehood proven by incoherent "from" and "to who" as well as incoherent language and basis for deportations) about how Soviets actually did it to collectively punish nationalities. That's your whole fucking point - that Beria did it. I refuted this quite easily, and you started screeching about how I am wrong because of bourgeois academia supporting you, not because you've actually debunked me on proving those documents fake

 

>>1899246
Also, you still haven't answered for your retarded words about "le arab belt" and how the dam was a plot to ethnically cleanse kurds. Protecting retarded small nation nationalists position against assimilation of their retarded small nations into bigger whole, which would prevented deaths of millions, just so that a bunch of retarded academicians and nationalists would be able to profit off cultural studies, is a peak liberalism and anticommunism. Defending kurds against a VERY FUCKING VALID criticism of kurds serving as a bulwark of imperialism against Syria and arabs, causing millions of deaths and immense suffering, all so that a bunch of Kurdish retards could claim farmland, is a peak reactionary behaviour

 

after reading this little debate, my opinions about Stalin changed significantly

 

>>1899368
yea, now i think debates about him are a dead end and retarded.

 

I disagree with plenty of choices he made, but he had some tough decisions to make and had the most powerful societies in the world at his throat. He's still one of the most important communist leaders and theorists in the past century and there's a lot we can learn from his leadership.
tl;dr what this anon said >>1891022 in the range of 70/30 - 75/25.

 

He stopped at Berlin
He failed Spain
He failed Greece
He failed Korea
Is main failure is letting his new friendship with FDR/Churchcunt get to his head.
If the Communist had Spain Greece and all of Korea we wouldn't be sitting here lamenting the fall of 91.


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