if the labor theory of value isnt true why dont jobs pay a living wahe?
Ever wondered that?
If the labor theory of value isnt true you could make the argument that youre not being exploited and that taxation theft.
But common sense dictates this isnt true. Common sense dictates there are men sitting on towards extracting everyones surplus labor like vampires.
>>2242462Yes, but taxes are the good theft as it steals from bad people
Aka people not me, pay up petty bourgeois wagie. I need ubi for my menthols
>>2244051my claim is that both are theft, which is true
i never implied anything more, yet you freak out
>redistributionyou mean reappropriation?
>>2244063My apologies I thought you were accusing me of lying in stating that no society has ever done away with both profit and taxation so let's go back to the original claim.
>my claim is that both are theft, which is truebased on what? What authority are you using to put forth this claim?
<inb4 "myself" lol >>2244095[theft]:
1. i have [X]
2. [Y] unrightfully takes [X]
apply this to taxes and profits and people get it.
the claim then is not in the act, but in right. who has the right to steal? commies say the government does, while conservatives say companies do - but in both, what is only argued for is the right to steal.
>>2244136put most succinctly, one earns his property over an object which he fairly acquires. if a man works, he earns his money. if a man doesnt work, he doesnt earn money. this again, is intuitive. why is profit theft? because profit comes from the labour of others, but also, it is unjustly earned, so is unrightful property (and why reclaiming profits is justified).
what are taxes? rents of the state. if you think your landlord doesnt deserve money, why do politicians?
>>2244006So it
could be optimal, but you're starting from scratch.
>>2244209Well he considered it inevitable that it would happen, not that it
should be like that.
>>2242459Marx argued that jobs DO pay a living wage. Because the capitalist needs the worker to stay alive and come back each day so they can continue being exploited. The capitalist also needs the worker to be able to have children and raise them to adulthood so that the working class itself continues to exist for future exploitation. Marx argued that labor power is the capacity for labor, that is sold as a commodity by the worker to the capitalist. Marx argued that the value of this commodity is the subsistence and reproduction of the laborer. i.e. if the laborer needs (for example) 2000 units of currency per month to pay for their rent, and their food, and food for their children, then that is the value of their labor power. Marx argued that wages will hover around subsistence on average but that the worker's labor power must produce more value than this subsistence. The value above the subsistence of the labor power is the surplus value, which is appropriated by the capitalist, and reinvested in expanding production, i.e. hiring more workers, and buying more means of production. Capital is therefore self-expanding value, which is gotten through legal ownership over the means of production, which are the conditions of labor. The worker MUST sell their labor power because they are without means of production. the capitalist has means of production and is able to exploit labor power for surplus value. This is the distinction between the classes, and it creates a class antagonism that will heighten contradictions within the mode of production until it is done away with. That's the simple version.
>>2247850>Marx argued that jobs DO pay a living wage.Wrong. Price of wages falls below its own value, unlike the prices of the articles of consumption which rise above their values.
>Because the capitalist needs the worker to stay alive and come back each day so they can continue being exploited.Wrong. Amazon 150% annual turnover rate. The surplus-army of labor exists to replace worn out workers once capital has exhausted their labor-power.
>>2247857the rate of exploitation correlates with the rate of profit which he argued tended to fall with the increase of constant capital and decrease of variable capital
>>2247874>Wrong. Price of wages falls below its own value, unlike the prices of the articles of consumption which rise above their values.if someone isn't paid a living wage, the die. Capitalists need the workers to live and reproduce otherwise they have nobody to exploit. Refute the central point.
>>2247899>Exploitation is in production, not taxation.Wrong. Taxes which fall on the working people make a big deduction from their wages.
>That surplus goes to the capitalist class, not the state. Utterly wrong. In 1943-4, in the principal capitalist countries (U.S.A., Britain, Germany) taxes absorbed about 35 per cent of the national income. The monopolies amassed fabulous profits during the war. The profits of the American monopolies grew from 3.3 milliard dollars in 1938 to 17 milliard in 1941, 20.9 milliard in 1942, 24'6 milliard in 1943 and 23.3 milliard in 1944. The monopolies of Britain and France and of fascist Germany, Italy and Japan also made huge profits during the war.
>Sometimes it’s used to maintain the capitalist system (police, prisons, bailouts); sometimes to soften its blows (welfare, healthcare, roads).Wrong. Keynesian investments in capitalist welfare, healthcare, and roads is maintaining the system. Welfare further increases exploitation of proletariat by subsidizing reserve army of labor by assuring merchant profits by driving up prices. Healthcare investments sustain exploitable labor-power at cheaper costs to capitalists. Bourgeois road investment forces proletarians to pay for capitalists' roads to maximize surplus-value exploited from producers.
>>2247905>if someone isn't paid a living wage, the die.This happens routinely under capitalism, especially in periods of crises. Even in stablest of times plenty of workers end up homeless and dying despite this "living wage" you speak of.
>Capitalists need the workers to live and reproduce otherwise they have nobody to exploit. Wrong. Capitalists exploit workers to death to maximize exploitation of surplus-value and easily replace worn labor-power with new labor-power. Unlike the prices of other commodities the price of labor-power as a rule, wage fluctuates below its value. The minimum limit of wages under capitalism is fixed by purely physical conditions: the worker must have that quantity of means of subsistence which he needs absolutely in order to live and reproduce his labor-power. If the price of labor-power falls to this minimum it falls below its value since under such circumstances, it can be maintained and developed only in a crippled state. The maximum limit of wages under capitalism is the value of labor-power. Capitalists exploit labor-power beyond its physical limits while affording minimum wage to extract maximum value.
>>2247850correct
>>2247874wrong. capitalists will run out of workers and (eventually) consumers of their commodities if they simply work everyone to death. Death by overwork is more characteristic of the slave mode of production. Capital keeps the exploited class alive and reproducing so it can have a fresh source of the commodified labor (labor-power)
>>2248387>capitalists will run out of workers and (eventually) consumers of their commodities if they simply work everyone to death. Death by overwork is more characteristic of the slave mode of production.You say capitalism is sustainable to the worker? WRONG. The consumption of labour power by capital is, besides, so rapid that the labourer, half-way through his life, has already more or less completely lived himself out. He falls into the ranks of the supernumeraries, or is thrust down from a higher to a lower step in the scale. It is precisely among the work-people of modern industry that we meet with the shortest duration of life. Dr. Lee, Medical Officer of Health for Manchester stated, “that the average age at death of the Manchester … upper middle class was 38 years, while the average age at death of the labouring class was 17; while at Liverpool those figures were represented as 35 against 15. It thus appeared that the well-to-do classes had a lease of life which was more than double the value of that which fell to the lot of the less favoured citizens.”
It is not the normal maintenance of the labour-power which is to determine the limits of the working-day; it is the greatest possible daily expenditure of labour-power, no matter how diseased, compulsory, and painful it may be, which is to determine the limits of the labourers’ period of repose. Capital cares nothing for the length of life of labour-power. All that concerns it is simply and solely the maximum of labour-power, that can be rendered fluent in a working-day. It attains this end by shortening the extent of the labourer’s life, as a greedy farmer snatches increased produce from the soil by robbing it of its fertility.
The capitalistic mode of production (essentially the production of surplus-value, the absorption of surplus-labour), produces thus, with the extension of the working-day, not only the deterioration of human labour-power by robbing it of its normal, moral and physical, conditions of development and function. It produces also the premature exhaustion and death of this labour-power itself. [73] It extends the labourer’s time of production during a given period by shortening his actual life-time.
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