/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

but my right wing counterparts love to talk about those things
the practical experience of organising generally sheds any ethnic narcissism or other identitarianism pretty quick, for those who are redeemable at least
alienating workers for culture war issues little relevant to workers-as-workers is self-defeating, the proletarian movement should be able to accommodate both racist LGBTs AND racialised homophobes (preferably not in leadership roles, should their bigotry show in public)

>>2245679
>that image
Class reductionist horseshoe theory and a pile of straw men.

>but my right wing counterparts love to talk about those things
You are acting obtuse. They attack and disparage it. I‘m talking about learning about it.

>the practical experience of organising generally sheds any ethnic narcissism or other identitarianism pretty quick, for those who are redeemable at least alienating workers for culture war issues little relevant to workers-as-workers is self-defeating, the proletarian movement should be able to accommodate both racist LGBTs AND racialised homophobes (preferably not in leadership roles, should their bigotry show in public)
Not only have you little success to show for but the last statement blatantly displays how little you understand what you are talking about

>>2245273
true, we should say, yes yes, all you want: you want this lgbtq shit, you got it, now we focus on the state and how we are gonna handle it. no reason to deny this, lets go straight to the point and let these people have whatever they want, we dont have time for that and in a lot of things they are right, only that they are wrong to primarily focus on that. On a lot of things they are flat out wrong, like 10 year old hormonizing and trans girl fighting with cis girl in olympics…

I was inclined to agree with you, until you made comments revealing you are simply another identity-reductionist. Even still, however, I don't think identity politics can or should be ignored, but class and materialism must simply always be the core of analysis.

I think it's fine to criticize identity politics as long as you're consistent about it. None of this critiquing LGBT stuff while glazing Islamism or Ulster loyalism or whatever form of identity politics is actually glorious and not faggy. I'm not letting anyone get away with that any longer. That also goes for American patriotism too. Sorry, it's all faggy. You're all gay. Everyone is gay.

What all of these things have in common is always some subset that's carved out of the population (which includes nationalism because it carves up the human population into different national groups) defined against something else (this is why we need aliens to invade and unite us all). Also people have different identities but identity politics assumes that people have one dominant identity which dominates the person's politics and has supreme importance. But that makes no sense and people's identities can change over time.

Also communists being *just* for industrial workers is also retarded. When labor unions were reduced to advocacy for just industrial workers like in Britain in the 1970s, they lost influence and ended up offending everyone who wasn't an industrial worker. The political project of the left is supposed to be universalist, it's for *all* human beings. Now it doesn't mean you shouldn't support industrial workers, or shouldn't support many identity groups, but the left has to be based on universal values which came from the Enlightenment otherwise it's going to result in disaster.

>>2245273
>don‘t simply fade away just because you wagged your finger at its existence
It did literally fade away when the communist parties enacted appropriate policies, then came back when the communist party was no longer able to maintain said policies. The conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan is a good example.
Of course, there are also things too big to remove just like that, like patriarchal culture. Socialist countries still made progress the likes of which feminists in bourgeois countries couldn't dream of. The communist approach is just immeasurably better, that's why so many minorities and women looked up to the socialist camp back when it was around.
Modern societies are also literally not reproducing themselves generation after generation or are on that track. Marx didn't even consider that as a serious possibility for any long period of time. Modern sexual and family relations are uniquely broken, and as such we are in no good place to talk about sexuality of any kind. We are all just wrong as a society in this regard, in no small part thanks to capitalism.
>inb4 but who cares if production and reproduction of real life is slowing down?
>No I haven't read Marx, I just have to deny the problems with modern society because reactionaries also point them out

Trying to avoid "idpol" by not talking about anything related to non-labour issues is obviously moronic, but it should be approached from a perspective of specific policies that have impact on peoples lives. When the discussion is between trans people demanding healthcare and basic legal protection, and some mouth breather complaining about too many genders, it is obvious on whose side should a principled communist stand.

>>2249405
>identity-reductionist
I'm not, but point out the exact section in the OP that made you think that.

>but class and materialism must simply always be the core of analysis.
Never disagreed.

>>2249469
>It did literally fade away when the communist parties enacted appropriate policies
You didn't understand what I said.

>Of course, there are also things too big to remove just like that, like patriarchal culture.
I think you are merely displaying your own ineptitude. Patriarchal culture is not "too big to remove".

>Socialist countries still made progress the likes of which feminists in bourgeois countries couldn't dream of.
>that's why so many minorities and women looked up to the socialist camp
Never stated otherwise. And the discussion isn't socialism versus capitalism, but "anti-idpol" Marxism advocating to ignore superstructural issues and blaming those oppressed for caring about it versus a Marxism that learns about superstructural issues and engages with them intelligently.

they invented a solution to your problem op, it's called intersectionality.
using this marvelous tool you can understand how oppressions intersect while still ensuring that class struggle is centered.
you need to address both the base (class struggle) and superstructure (idpol etc.), anything short of that is liberal half-measure bullshit. i don't know what kind of strawman you've proposed that only attacks the base, but i will call them liberals just as well as i will attack superstructure-focused liberals, and i advise you to do so as well

as to you personally, you have your own brainworms to examine.
you really don't see the irony in critiquing the "cis hetero male"'s focus on economics when you seem content to lambast the monolith you'd created in your head on issues of sex and race? have you ever discussed base here yourself, or are you going to post crime statistics again?

>>2245273
marx was wrong, superstructure is bullshit, people who talk to me about this should be bullied.

>>2245273
I just don't want reactionaries to kill gays and trans

>>2249869
It wouldn’t be better if communists were doing it either, that’s why Fidel shut down the UMAP camps

>You would be able to handle this dilemma better if you actually looked into race & racism, misogyny & the patriarchy, and queerphobia & heteronormativity
sure, okay, i-
>you are not interested in doing that because you are cis het white males who detest talking about these things for the same reasons as your right wing counterpart.
oh.
in other words, i have original sin?

>>2245273
No disagreements here OP. Problem is, /leftypol/ is at a cross roads on wether it cares more about trying to convert former /pol/yps and act like edgelords, or actually engage in communist theory which focuses on said minority groups. It'd mean they have to socialise with these people as opposed to trying to make weirdo arguments about the "liberal ideology" of trans liberation.

Every single day they try to hold on to the glory days of 2017 leftypol has only deteriorated the community.

>actually engage in communist theory which focuses on said minority groups
any examples of said theory?

>>2278651
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/
I do like Nancy Fraser though.
Also read some Black communist work
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Against_Bourgeois-Liberal_Distortions_of_Leninism_on_the_Negro_Question_in_the_United_States
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41163604

>>2280316
Also I guess I'd recommend Robert Chapman's "Empire of Normality." Also "Health Communism" by Artie Vierkant and Beatrice Adler-Bolton.

>>2278693
the contrast between the yerba mate zoomie and this lady, the actual author who used to work at google and has no formal education in sociology or akin fields always gets me

>>2245273
>Another hard pill to swallow is that you can‘t solve the dilemma of identity politics dividing workers by ignoring identity politics and asking those superstructurally oppressed to also ignore it.
The structurally opposed are the people selling their labour to the people purchasing labour. Any subdivision from that is a very successful bourgeois ploy to make the working class fight itself instead of them.

>>2280423
That would be a great argument if it was the superstructurally oppressed spontanously dividing themselves opposed to it already being systemically established where the superstructurally privileged are socialized into believing these constructs to be real and acting to discriminate and abuse those oppressed themselves.

>>2280454
No they didn't "spontaneously divide" they were divided in the first place by the ruling classes, they have always tried to make the classes below them fight each other. Feudal kings actively encouraged their vassals to fight each other instead of their sovereign.

>>2245273
CIA-coded thread

>>2280472
No shit.

>>2245273
Thanks, COINTELPRO