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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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tldr: Martov argues that, contrary to Lenin's interpretation, Marx and Engels saw the democratic republic—not soviets—as the essential and specific political form through which the proletariat could achieve and exercise its dictatorship, transforming the state into a truly democratic instrument of class rule.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/martov/1921/xx/decomp.htm

>Psychologically the most characteristic thing about the rush of the “extreme leftists” toward “sovietism” is their desire to jump over the historic inertia of the masses. Dominating their logic, however, is the idea that soviets constitute a new, “finally discovered,” political mode. This, they say, is the specific instrument of the class rule of the proletariat, just as the democratic republic is according to them the specific instrument of the rule of the bourgeoisie.


The Communist Manifesto declared: “We have already seen that the first step in the working-class revolution is raising the proletariat to the position of a ruling class, the conquest of democracy.”

In 1852, in Eighteenth Brumaire, Marx wrote:
Every previous revolution has brought the machinery of State to a greater perfection instead of breaking it up.
On the 12th of April 1871, in a letter to Kugelmann, he formulated his viewpoint on the problem of revolution as follows:
If you look at the last chapter of my Eighteenth Brumaire, you will see that I declare the next attempt of the French Revolution to be not merely to hand over, from one set to another, the bureaucratic and military machine, as was the case up to now, but to shatter it. That is precisely the preliminary condition of any real people’s revolution on the Continent. It is exactly this that constitutes the attempt of our heroic Parisian comrades.

It is not for any idle reason that Engels wrote in 1891, in his preface to Civil War in France:
<… the State is nothing more than a machine for the oppression of one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less than in the monarchy; and at best an evil inherited by the proletariat after its victorious struggle for class supremacy whose worse sides the proletariat, just like the Commune, will have at the earliest possible moment to lop off, until such time as a new generation, reared under new and free social conditions, will be able to throw on the scrap-heap all the useless lumber of the State.

The proletariat lops off “the worst sides” of the democratic State (for example: the police, permanent army, the bureaucracy as an independent entity, exaggerated centralization, etc.) But it does not suppress the democratic State as such. On the contrary, it creates the democratic State in order to have it replace the “military and bureaucratic State,” which must be shattered.

<If there is anything about which there can be no doubt it is that our party and the working class can only gain supremacy under a political régime like the democratic republic. The latter is, indeed, the specific form of the dictatorship of the proletariat, as has been demonstrated by the French revolution


That is how Engels expresses himself in his critique of the draft of the Erfurt program. He does not speak there of a “soviet” republic (the term was, of course, unknown), nor of a commune-republic, in contrast to the “State.” Neither does he speak of the “trade-union republic” imagined by Smith and Morrisson and by the French syndicalists. Clearly and explicitly, Engels speaks of the democratic republic, that is, of a State democratized from top to bottom, “an evil inherited by the proletariat.”

This is stated so dearly, so explicitly, that when Lenin quotes these words, he finds it necessary to obscure their meaning.

<Engels – he says –repeats here in a particularly emphatic form the fundamental idea which, like a red thread, runs throughout all Marx’s work, viz., that the Democratic Republic comes nearest the dictatorship of the proletariat. For such a republic, without in the least setting aside the domination of capital, and, therefore, the oppression of the masses and the class struggle, inevitably leads to such an extension, intensification and development of that struggle that, as soon as the chance arises for satisfying the fundamental interests of the oppressed masses, this chance is realized inevitably and solely in the form of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of the guidance of these masses by the proletariat.

(State and Revolution, Chapter IV.)

Engels does not speak of a political form that “comes nearest the dictatorship,” as is interpreted by Lenin in his commentaries. He speaks of the only “specific” political form in which the dictatorship can he realized. According to Engels, the dictatorship is forged in the democratic republic. Lenin, on the other hand, sees democracy merely as the means of sharpening the class struggle, thus confronting the proletariat with the problem of the dictatorship. For Lenin, the democratic republic finds its conclusion in the dictatorship of the proletariat, giving birth to The latter but destroying itself in the delivery. Engels, on the contrary, is of the opinion that when the proletariat has gained supremacy in the democratic republic and thus realized its dictatorship, within the democratic republic, it will consolidate the latter by that very, act and invest it, for the first time, with a character that is genuinely, fundamentally and completely democratic. That is why, in 1848, Engels and Marx identified the act of “raising the proletariat to a ruling class” with “the conquest of democracy.”

>>2250988
>not Soviets
Soviets didn’t exist in Marx’s time. It is true that Marx saw the democratic republic as the best government for workers to do their political work but he was comparing the democratic republic to fucking imperial states of the 19th century which do not exist today.

>>2250988
History has proven Marx and Martov wrong, and those who follow still are failures stuck in the past.

>>2250994
Uhhhhh huh

>>2250988
Hitler was the greatest Menshevik

OK OP I finished reading what you said. Let's say you are correct. What do you want us to do about it?

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>>2251009
Study the factory laws. Question the workers. Find out what their grievances are. Then we can use those grievances in our propaganda. We must find ways of distributing leaflets, arrange meetings. When the workers see we are identified with their everyday needs, then we can organize them, develop political consciousness. We'll do nothing if we sit here and talk like a heap of university liberals. We must go out and obtain the confidence of the people and the power of the people. Only they can challange the militaristic state and the bourgeoisie which supports it. We must show the people the structure of society, so that they can pull it down with their bare hands.

>>2250988
>if you don't allow bourgeois parliamentarism (to let us legally oppose will of the people), you go against leftist god!!1

>>2251030
he really was such a showstopper in fall of eagles. same the show was mostly about aristocrats

>>2251264
Come to think of it, does this mean that Lenin was helming the USS Enterprise?

>>2251275
distant descendant? or maybe its picard RPing in the holodeck as one of his favorite historical figures

>>2251284
Stewart played Lenin, also played Picard.

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>>2250988
>democratic republic
But that's not democracy at all. Just elected dictatorship. Also Lenin was a liberal republican contrary of what this person claims.

>>2251009
>What do you want us to do about it?
I want you to murder people who are against collective democracy of the working class.

>>2250992
>Soviets didn’t exist in Marx’s time.
Neither did they during Lenins time as he disbanded them.

>>2251009
Zasulich was right, Axelrod was right. By god, you think you are Robespierre!

Soviet is just russian word for council, though

>>2251676
in the united snakkkes that would involve murdering most people and i'm afraid i don't have time to fit that into my busy schedule



>>2251671
yes "this person" martov clearly never read or knew anything about lenin

>>2252547
I'm getting the sense this guy isn't a big fan of the bolsheviks

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>>2252547
I went back and watched his earlier videos leading up to that one and this moment made me laugh


>>2252954
bukharin fully deserved the bullet then .
there is a God after all

>>2253564
Oh no, not the evil bukharino

>>2253564
except Stalin and everyone else agreed with Bukharin in that situation.

>>2250988
Practice >>> theory
This is irrelevant.

>>2250988
>essential
"Metaphysics, Julius?"

>>2253564
>the entire central committee should have been shot

>>2250994
Behead all revisionists

>>2251064
>to let us legally oppose will of the people
So then I assume you prefer direct democracy? Because the more you abstract yourself away from that, the further you get from a government that actually represents popular opinion.

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>>2252983
Noj Rants actually reads Russian and has traveled to the Russian archives and gotten out dusty primary sources by hand with the latex gloves and read them aloud on camera directly to his audience. He compares many different sources and tries to reach an academic conclusion by considering the motivations of each party, the shortcomings of each party, and the veracity of each claim, while FinnBol just says Bolsheviks, especially Lenin/Stalin, were always right no matter what, and only cites sources that already agree with his conclusions. Which method of historical investigation do you think is more fruitful?

>>2253677
So many self-described "anti-revisionists" do themselves a disservice and reduce themselves to fans of historical Great Men by getting swept up in all the hagiographic gigachad Socialist-realism portraits, and thus they fail to truly love respect, or understand the actually-existing-historical persons behind the Great Men whose mythology they have fallen for. The historical Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Trotsky, etc. were all interesting people with a lot to say but they were also only human, and working on a collective team with a lot of other humans. Marxism is the movement to sublate capitalism, which is a system, and yet I see over and over the mistake of avoiding systemic thinking, and making it about Proletarian Heroes vs. Bourgeois Villains. This is a reassertion of bourgeois individualism and metaphysical idealist (as opposed to dialectical materialist) Great Man narratives in the class struggle itself… it has been very sad to witness this among Marxists who for the most part are very intelligent people who care deeply about the advancement of mankind.

Read Plaidoyer pour Staline

>>2255024
Lenin and Stalin were always right though
Too bad Noj Rants does not have the brain to process what he can read

>>2250988
this is absolutelt naive, even more naive than anarkiddies who at least recognize that any form of patlimentary democracy is just bourgeoise bullshit. According to your account, Switzerland is the most communist country of the world, but it is not at all and far from it, it is a finantial shithole of a watchmakers country. So either you or engels or marx are wrong, and history show it: no democratic republic has been a good ground for a communist revolution EVER, Allende in Chile and Moro-Berlinguer in Italy (a mere compromise between a communist party and a coincidentally left leaning christian democracy party, the best western democratic republics ever got to) shows how useless communism by democratic means in the face of geopolitical constraints is, they just get annhiliated instantly by CIA. For fuck sakes even de Gaulle in France was more useful than communists in democratic republics, with its anti NATO policies. Truly naive take, either yours, engels', marx's or that martov's, doesnt matter

>>2255055
>Lenin and Stalin were always right though
Lenin and Stalin were normal human beings who sometimes made mistakes, admitted as much while they were still alive, and rejected this kind of sycophantic hagiography and cult of personality.

I have illustrative examples of both:

Lenin when describing the New Economic Policy admitted some aspects of the previous policy were mistaken:

>At the beginning of 1918 we expected a period in which peaceful construction would be possible. When the Brest peace was signed it seemed that danger had subsided for a time and that it would be possible to start peaceful construction. But we were mistaken, because in 1918 a real military danger overtook us in the shape of the Czechoslovak mutiny and the outbreak of civil war, which dragged on until 1920. Partly owing to the war problems that overwhelmed us and partly owing to the desperate position in which the Republic found itself when the imperialist war ended—owing to these circumstances, and a number of others, we made the mistake of deciding to go over directly to communist production and distribution. We thought that under the surplus-food appropriation system the peasants would provide us with the required quantity of grain, which we could distribute among the factories and thus achieve communist production and distribution.


In an interview with Lion Feuchtwanger, Stalin was asked about his cult of personality. He said he tried his best to put an end to it, but that the CPSU would override him:

>Feuchtwanger: As a person sympathetic to the USSR, I see and feel that the feelings of love and respect for you are completely sincere and elementary. Precisely because you are so loved and respected, can’t you stop with your words these forms of delight that confuse some of your friends abroad?


<Stalin: I tried to do this several times. But nothing works. You tell them it’s not good, it won’t do. People think that I am speaking out of false modesty. They wanted to hold the celebration on the occasion of my 55th birthday. I passed through the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) the prohibition of this. Complaints began to come in, that I was preventing them from celebrating, expressing their feelings, that it’s not about me. Others said that I was breaking. How can these manifestations of enthusiasm be prevented? Force is impossible. There is freedom of expression. You can ask in a friendly way.


Looking at these texts you see humble human beings who do not see themselves as all omnibenevolent. So why do you enagage in sycophantic hagiography on behalf of people who would much rather you not do so?

>>2255067
>According to your account, Switzerland is the most communist country of the world
I don't recall OP saying this. Are you able to respond to what they actually said?

>>2255138
Lenin and Stalin were always right, they were right in committing the mistakes that they did, and they were right in admitting that these were mistakes. When they did not admit, there were no mistakes, and thus they were right to not admit.

>>2255138
>Lenin and Stalin were normal human beings
No, you and I are normal human beings, not Lenin and Stalin. Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin are the only 4 ubermensch to actually exist. They are above us. They are eternal.

>>2253640
>"Metaphysics, Julius?"
Metaphysics, Julius!

You must have a pannekoek.

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>The proletariat lops off “the worst sides” of the democratic State (for example: the police,

I watched Fall of Eagles before reading much about Lenin/RSDLP history. I knew it wasn't 200% accurate, it's a drama based on the history, but ah hahaha

>One of the delegates, Posadovsky, asked the Congress whether the party ought to subordinate its future policy to this or that basic democratic principle, as having an absolute value, or “must all democratic principles be subordinated exclusively to the interests of the party?” Plekhanov gave a clear and decisive answer:

>"Every democratic principle must be considered not by itself, abstractly, but in relation to that which may be called the fundamental principle of democracy, namely salus populi suprema lex. Translated into the language of the revolutionist, this means that the success of the revolution is the highest law. […]"

>>2250988
I FUCKING HATE LIBERAL REPUBLICS SO MUCH ITS UNREAL

>>2259933
>>"Every democratic principle must be considered not by itself, abstractly, but in relation to that which may be called the fundamental principle of democracy, namely salus populi suprema lex. Translated into the language of the revolutionist, this means that the success of the revolution is the highest law. […]"
>the success of the revolution is the highest law
I am so hard right now, I can't even describe it. Leaking precum everywhere.
>>2255034
True
>>2250988
AFAIU the soviets failed and a democratic republic was created instead. The soviets were dissolved. Lenin eventually agreed with Martov, no? But from what I gather, Martov was against the state as it developed in the soviet union, and instead wanted something more parliamentary? But on the other hand, he seems to be aware of the need to use state power to squash the counterrevolutionary tendencies. I don't quite get the text or his position.

Martov says
>In accordance with the tradition of Babeuf and Blanqui, Marxism recognizes the State (naturally after its conquest by the proletariat) as the principal lever of this transformation. That is why already in the 60’s the Anarchists and Proudhonians denounced Marx and Engels as “Statists.”
So he admits here that seizure of the state as is, is necessary.
>[Proudhonists and anarchists] did not realize that capitalism has created, for the concentration of the means of production and distribution, so huge an apparatus, that in order to lay hold of these means, the working class would require effective administrative machinery extending over the entire economic domain that was previously ruled by capital. They had no idea of the immenseness and complexity of the transformation that would come as a result of a social revolution. And only because they did not understand all these things was it possible for them to think of the autonomous “commune” – itself based on “autonomous” productive units – as the lever of such a transformation.
This seems to imply that the Soviets/communes were more of a Proudhonist idea. This passage also seems to imply that the idea that any autonomous worker control of the productive forces is an anarchist ideal. Which is agreeable. He also admits elsewhere that this riled up the revolutionaries, which speaks to the class consciousness of them and the problem of a lack of deep understanding of theory in the masses. The idea of the soviets, however misguided, was a rally for the proletariat.
Here he is quoting Mehring, who Martov seems to agree with. Marx and Engels had contradictory ideas, he argues, on the usage of State power and the communes/soviets.
>Franz Mehring: According to these conceptions, the decomposition of the political organization referred to as the “State” evidently belongs among the final accomplishments of the coming proletarian revolution. It will be a progressive decomposition. That organization has always had as its principal purpose to assure, with the aid of the armed forces, the economic oppression of the working majority by a privileged minority. The disappearance of the privileged minority will do away with the need of the armed force of oppression, that is, State power. But at the same time Marx and Engels emphasized that in order to achieve this – as well as other, even more important, results – the working class will first have to possess itself of the organized political power of the State and use it for the purpose of crushing the resistance of the capitalists and recreating society on a new basis. It is difficult to reconcile the General Council’s lavish praise of the Paris Commune, for having commenced by destroying the parasitic State, with the conceptions presented in the Communist Manifesto
History has proven that soviets/communes are crushed. Any dissolution of state power means the victory of reactionary forces. In that sense, we can all agree. So the State must be seized and used against reaction. This is pretty basic, even though anarchists and ultras disagree.

>From the ground provided by such economic illusions, we see rise again the fallacy that the liberty of the working class can be accomplished by the. destruction of the State and not by the conquest of the State. This belief throws back the revolutionary

So here he also agrees in the seizure of state power, seemingly as is.
So again he agrees with the seizure of state power.

Why then is he against the State that formed after the revolution and dissolution of the soviets? The democratic republics is what happened after the fact. No?? Am I missing something? What the fuck is he disagreeing about then.

I would appreciate some clarification, thank you

Bump?

>>2251009
John Oliver did a great job as Martov

democracy is bourgeois you fucking nonce read for once

unfortunately for you Marx clearly understood this very simple concept but since you utter retard(s) have never read him so you'll forever remain ignorant as to anything he ever said

>>2251676
">collective democratic of the working class"
ridiculous


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