> Claim to want to live in peace
> Move into Palestine
> Colonize Palestine
> Start a war and then claim victim status
> Proceed to genocide local people
> Get constant support from every Western power
Why do they get away with everything? They're the only country that commits a genocide in the modern day and actively gets rousing support from the Empire of the US. They're the new Nazi regime just with a star of David instead. I'm seriously fucking sick of it.
Free Palestine!
>>2251962>>2251964It's false because this isn't a conspiracy.
The national bourgeoisie of Israel and the US have a mutually beneficial relationship, Israel is a military base of the US, this isn't rocket science. There isn't an evil cabal of Zionists plotting for world domination or something, you just want to spread your JQ bullshit amongst leftists.
>>2251965When are Israelis punished for saying America bad or writing articles about America bad? Please cite
I am not going to fall for your bullshit of screaming anti semitism over any claim I just watched Ethan from h3h3 call Hasan and anti semite well over 100 times. Fuck off
>>2251975Show me Israel government punishing Israelis for saying America bad or writing America bad
I can give you a ton of sources of American government punishing Americans for saying Israel bad or writing Israel bad
Provide it now
>>2251975There is no such thing as an Israeli proletariat
They are all lumpen baby killer reactionaries or bourgeois genocidal maniacs
>>2251978My bad, I just misread your post :^)
I don't know that Israel punishes their citizens for criticizing America, I don't think they do. I'd say in the case of America, that specific country is just going in a more authoritarian direction in general, I don't know how the situation is in Israel/Palestine, I know Arab Jews are very oppressed.
>>2251987I just disagreed with you, and I'm anti-Zionist, it's an ethnically/religiously supremacist ideology, I just think "THEY'RE CONTROLLING THE BANKS AND THEY'RE PLOTTING FOR WORLD DOMINATION!!!" is so obviously just using the word "Zionist" in place of "Jew"
>>2251995Okay so we have established an American gets punished for questioning Israel in the USA and you are unsure if this happens to Israelis while it's pretty clear it dosen't.
The Israeli government is plenty authoritarian so it isn't a matter of them giving more free speech to their people than Americans give to their people. There is clearly a component you are missing and you reflexively call anyone who talks about it and anti semite. Do some introspection
> Claim to want to live in peace> Move into (territory)> Colonize (territory)> Start a war and then claim victim status> Proceed to genocide local people> Get constant support from every Western powerThere, I just gave you the history of every settler colonial project and why all of them implicitly allow future ones, because questioning it would be questioning their own existence.
>Why do they get away with everything? They're the only country that commits a genocide in the modern day and actively gets rousing support from the Empire of the US. 946,000 to 1,120,000 people died as a consequence of the Iraq War, and all the US had to say for it was that it completed it's objectives. Indonesia killed 1 million to 3 million people with support from the US government. And you question why the United States would be at best apathetic and at worst supportive of what Israel does?
The dry and unfortunate answer is that Israel isn't unique. It isn't new. It's just the latest colonial project allowed to continue after WW2, and exists not in contrast, but in perverse symbiosis with the United States. Actually pay attention to both US and Israeli politics, and you'll see two sides trying to swerve policy for immediate interest.
>>2251971>When are Israelis punished for saying America bad or writing articles about America bad? Please cite There would be no point to this, there is nothing said articles could do.
>I am not going to fall for your bullshit of screaming anti semitism over any claim I just watched Ethan from h3h3 call Hasan and anti semite well over 100 times. Fuck offNewfag, we've been against Zionism and studying it far longer then your e-celeb addled brain.
If any of you payed attention for the last two decades, instead of having this kind of collective amnesia, you would know that it's a talking point in Israeli politics about how they historically have been unable to go far without US go ahead. Every time Israel has tried to go full tilt, the US for multiple administrations (hell, even the bush Sr administration) has leveraged them to stabilize and get things under control. Yes, the Israel has a political presence, but so does the US, to the point that Bush Sr was just able to say "No" to Israel demanding certain loans that the US wasn't ready to give, and despite rallying AIPAC, completely folded. This has been repeated for Clinton, for Obama, and for others. If Israel had an absolute say as some pseuds claim, it would have taken the West Bank decades ago, during the first and second intifada. The UN and partially the US obstructed them from that. It's why Israel, wildly enough, has considered multiple times just cutting off the US and trying to do its own thing. But it largely can't, and so keeps the partnership as is.
This administration, both first term and second, is a radical change though. At no point before has this much go ahead been given. As much as the Biden administration permitted effective aparthiad and looked the other way to implicit incremental ethnic cleansing, you could tell by policy they were following the "vent then stabilize" policy of previous administrations to get Israel eventually back on track. This one is all in, which means that you can expect policy elsewhere, including within the US, to be all in as well.
>>2252000It's a labour aristocracy thing, I'm pretty sure.
I was calling someone an antisemite for posting about "elite bankers" plotting for "world domination" and for someone calling me "jew boi" after criticizing it, not for discussion about Israel's labour aristocracy.
>>2252008This is hilarious that guy told you to go back to r/Jewish and you literally posted a reddit comment from r/Jewish
That poster post there non stop. You can't make this shit up. Go back to your reddit Zionist
https://www.reddit.com/user/Regulatornik/r/Jewish is the most rabidly pro Zionist place I have browsed and of course the person who runs in here to call everyone an anti semite used it (you)
>>2252008That poster you linked literally defended the Ben gvir Jewish fans there attacking a woman telling her death to all Arabs
GO FUCK YOURSELF ZIONIST CUNT
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1ka9bx9/the_attack_on_the_woman_in_brooklyn/ >>2252021You are the only person who brought up the jq you fucking retard. Go back to your h3h3 reddit.
Zionist clearly create laws against criticizing Israel in the USA. Clearly shape foreign policy to benefit Israel. Clearly push policies that are not popular at all with Americans to benefit Israel too
Israel does not censor Israelis when they say fuck the USA. The USA does punish Americans if say fuck Israel. Go fuck yourself. This is fact.
>>2252025>This is hilarious that guy told you to go back to r/Jewish and you literally posted a reddit comment from r/Jewish The point wasn't support you idiot, it was to show the discussion going on in liberal Israeli circles.
>That poster post there non stop. You can't make this shit up. Go back to your reddit Zionist >https://www.reddit.com/user/Regulatornik/You didn't read anything I said, did you actually think I was condoning that poster? Did you read anything in my post?
>r/Jewish is the most rabidly pro Zionist place I have browsed Yeah no shit, its a reddit in which (from what I know) banned all dissenting opinion at the beginning of the offensive. I posted how they were beginning to do Kahanist apologetics in the Israel/Palestine thread.
>and of course the person who runs in here to call everyone an anti semite used it (you)Where did I do that you child? Where did I say that in my post? How is using a post as an example of Israelis complaining about how the US prevents them from "doing stuff" and example of me calling people anti-semetic?
>>2252031>That poster you linked literally defended the Ben gvir Jewish fans there attacking a woman telling her death to all ArabsYeah, because they're a fucking Zionist you idiot. What do you not get about an example?
>GO FUCK YOURSELF ZIONIST CUNTBitch, where did I condone Zionism?
This is what I mean, you people don't read. You look at an image, don't read the post to understand the context of why it was used, and then wild out. Literally first few sentences is saying that Israel is a settler colonial project, on the same scope of other settler colonial projects. You retards.
>>2252037>You are the only person who brought up the jq you fucking retard. We literally had anons do that you fag.
>Go back to your h3h3 reddit. The fact that you keep bringing up this shit puts you as a newfag.
>Zionist clearly create laws against criticizing Israel in the USA. Clearly shape foreign policy to benefit Israel. Clearly push policies that are not popular at all with Americans to benefit Israel tooCool, never denied Israel tries to influence the US. Just not as much as you non-marxist newfags thinks it does. And heres the thing, as much as you don't like it, a lot of Americans are at most ambivalent to it. Only 9% of Christians in the US, of all denominations, have issue with what Israel is doing in Gaza. That's fucked, but that's the truth.
>Israel does not censor Israelis when they say fuck the USA. The USA does punish Americans if say fuck Israel. Go fuck yourself. This is fact.Because there is largely no strategic point, and the Israeli government has already considered cutting ties with the US. It can't, because it can't find any avenue to divorce itself. If there was a large enough issue that necessitated the Israeli government shutting down anti-US rhetoric, then it would happen. But it isn't, because wtf could even happen, what could that even do? It's meaningless noise in the context of Israel politics.
>>2252067
Jewish Bolshevism doesn't concern mere questions of empirical reality. So when you ask for "sources", it won't make much of a difference. Jews were disproportionately present relative to their populations among Socialist leaders (ONLY in some countries) since the Second International. Many famous heroes of our tradition were Jews. This is not by accident – how one explains this, however, relegates to one's position in the wider struggle. How do we explain it? Simple: The dissonance wrought from particularism/universalism and its relationship to the enlightenment. When the individual Jew cannot approximate the particularities of Judaism (which are too narrow, confined to the ghetto, etc.) to a wider culture (for example, a university/gymnasium), it becomes possible for him to adopt a universality. When individual Jews, faced with rabid anti-semitism, recognize that their salvation lies in the negation of nationality itself (INCLUDING their own!), they become predisposed to the ideas they follow. For example: I am of Arab origin and I grew up in a predominantly white setting. It is above all for this reason that I eventually became a Communist (Not anymore obviously, but this is what LED to adopting the ideas). So the reasons why members of the intelligentsia become Communists are – so to speak – varied and trivial, I should add. Because the people these "Jews" helped mobilize were of several different nations and tongues (Jewish MASSES were no more attracted to Communism than others – in fact they were a stark minority in the Bolshevik party as a whole). Communism is irreducible to being the Jewish identity, though the Jewish identity (in the past) could have been a stepping stone for intellectuals to become Marxist. The Socialist intelligentsia, which of course can never be a huge demographic, of course will have such stark disparities. This is generally found in most nations, anyway: Minorities in general AS INTELLECTUALS (NOT AS MASSES!) might be more predisposed. This includes not only national, but sexual, religious, etc. minorities.
Jewish Bolshevism, like anti-semitism in general, is pathological. That means even if every paranoiac claim of the anti-Semite was empirically true, there is no connection with the belief in the claims – and its actual reality. It is its own autonomous, pathological force. The Jew is simply not a tangible figure – he is everywhere and nowhere, and every single specific attribute retroactively structured toward the Jew is followed by its exact opposite. The Jews are too dirty, and at the same time too arrogantly clean. Jews are deadly cosmopolitans at the same time as being chauvinistic war-mongers. They're too invested in "polluting" other nations and races with their blood, and at the same time become too reserved in an un-assimilated.
It's not just contradictions that exist on the level of "malleable" practical matters that can vary if the consistent goal is "world domination". It's what defines the connotations, the meaning of this so-called drive for "world domination" in the first place. And there is not a shred of consistency in it. In the U.S., the inter-faith marriage rate is 50%. The Jews will probably be accused of trying to infiltrate society. If the rate was 5%, they would be accused of "Jewish supremacism".
There is, however, a thread of consistency in the pathology of anti-semitism. Hegel told us that the evil is in the gaze that sees evil all around it. Those who want to distance themselves from their own complacency in what they deem evil must simply, blindly condemn it. The same religious conservative who fantasizes over the hedonistic, sinful lifestyle of the secular Atheist visits the strip club. The same society which approaches pedophilia as if it is an external intrusion, i.e. "Get it out! Just get it out of my face!" is the same society which produces the pedophile. Degradation, filth and corruption is not simply something PRODUCED by capitalism as a by-product, it regularly necessitates these to sustain its own understanding of virtue.
And likewise, let us analyze the claims of Jewish-Bolshevism: That Jews used the revolution to enslave and dominate the "host" peoples. The "Jew-Bolsheviks" engage in the most horrendous, grotesque and sick murders, rapes of mass populations in their terror. The leather-claden Jew-Bolsheviks bring destruction and misery – demons straight out of hell. The descriptions of "Bolshevism" given by German propagandists, evident not only in their posters but in their prose, are very thorough – an often and recurring theme is how "Jewish NKVD" agents nail people against walls, specifically children, mutilate bodies, etc.
But it is not a question of confirming, or not confirming these claims empirically to destroy the pathology. Of course empirically facts blatantly contradict them. But it won't make a difference for them – because again, the Jew is not a tangible figure. One must instead understand the relationship between the ideological fantasy and the mind from which it is wrought – the Nazi ideologue. What underpinned the horror of their "race", now, implicitly, to the Nazis concern the people? Jews as untermenschen, malleable animals which can be manipulated and cynically structured to death for the war effort. Finally, what was the character of the atrocities of the Nazis? Horrific mutilations, humiliations of women, the Nazis raped approximately 10 million inhabitants of the Soviet Union, forced brothels, etc.), rabidly violent misogyny, butcherings of children and women arbitrarily carried out at the actions of partisans, mass death and destruction.
So to summarize for you, the Fascists were the most spiritually weak, cowardly and feeble cowards. They could not devour, approach with their chests held high, the enigma of Communism. They instead projected from their rotten black hearts the most vile claims upon Communism – they filled them with the most disgusting and sordid lies. They created a mythos that, by default, in their mind is supposed to be reality. In other words, the Nazis were CYNICS – there is no real truth behind the MOTIVATIONS of these ideologues in something they could confirm in themselves. The Jew is a cipher. The Jew is fake. The Jew conspirators became them, their own hidden historical self-consciousness. They did it to JUSTIFY THEMSELVES, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE "JEW-BOLSHEVIKS" CAN EASILY BE ATTRIBUTED TO THE GERMAN FASCISTS. They COUNTERED the ideological power of Stalinism – by appropriating what THEY believed was its own mode. They appropriated its aesthetic, and they were more Stalinist in bounds to kill Bolsheviks than not, some Nazis called themselves "We Bolsheviks of the Right!" and so on. Some nothing-above as long as it fits in their ranks of the German Nazis. The Fascists are some of the most perfectly self-conscious of their filthy lies too. For example, I forget who – in Italy, they claimed something along the lines of "Even if the Protocols is forged, it is still profoundly true". Go on the web and see all the fing S they make up – from forged quotes to forged "facts". They don't care. The "truth" is to be fixed" in accordance to their pathology. We call them opportunist culture of MOVEMENT! Unfit that pervades reactionaries and conservatives as a whole.
>>2252108As opposed to
>In the midst of a Palestinian genocide it is of the utmost importance thar I scream about da jooooos on a leftist discussion forumBe honest, you don't do political action or organising, do you?
>>2252102>Imagine running defense for Zionist. Useful idiot at best<Calling for the dissolution of Israel is running defense for ZionistsRead more.
>>2252108>Actually analyzing the situation instead of just implicitly condoning every imperial power as innocent means you actually support Zionism>If you call out myopic statements about "muh jews" when you get fags saying "Jews are the problem and exceptions only prove the rule", you're actually running defenseGet off the site liberal
>>2252138>Using Google to snapshot memes Wtf the fuck are you doing lol. Also,
>Left>Sponsered by the CIA after Vietnam Dumb meme, dumber use of a Marx shitpost to imply dumbest conclusions of what should be.
>>2252147>The way some people talk about Jews nowadays makes you think that they believe all problems would be solved forever if Holocaust 2.0 occurred.It's always been implicit apologetics for previous captialist failure and atrocity. The US engaged in Palestine times 10, and you still get JQ infants trying to lay the blame for that on Jews, as if Jews whispered in the ear of every "pure blooded" Anglo Saxon of the time to ignore their crying conscience and genocide a continent. The US was even sterilizing populations before Israel was a glimmer in Herzl's eye (
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Latinas)
>>2251942Israelis are smart, they understood from the very beginning that if you are on the side of the Americans, you can do whatever the fuck you want. No wonder they pissed on the USSR immediately after getting their support for recognition in the UN.
Since then, they have masterfully tied their interests with that of the USA. Too many small brains think that the zionists 'control' the US government. No, that is not the case. They have simply created a state of affairs for many decades where supporting them is extremely beneficial for American imperialism.
In short, Israel is the vanguard of American imperialism.
>>2252744You are oversimplifying it.
It's true that US imperialism benefits from Israel's existence to some degree, but it's also true that AIPAC lobbies the SHIT out of the US government and floods elections with cash. They try to destroy any politician or candidate who is even remotely critical of Israel, and are often successful.
>>2252783>The preponderance of evidence indicates the opposite of your claim. There is a powerful lobby that controls US politics. The Israeli lobby doesn't fully refute his claim, lobbying works to cement and reify existing relations, and attempts as well to swerve policy.
>There is nothing subtle about it. There really isn't much to indicate a benefit to US imperialism provided by Israel.That isn't true at all, I don't know why people state this. Not even the most brutal "realpolitik" insiders like Kissinger thought this. Israel is beneficial as a bulwark, a fulcrum to pivot and leverage around to maintain controlled tension (this isn't as obvious anymore currently, but was how earlier administrations used it when dividing the Arab world and trying to work in Egypt to create a united bloc with Jordan and Israel), and as an information asset. Israel is also "good" to keep around as an ally, at a bare minimum, just to deny it to US opposition. Russia has ties to Israel too, as much as Z posters will downplay it, and even China before current events engaged in relatively off and on relations. If the US dumped Israel tomorrow, you would likely see Israel go full tilt to consolidate regional control, and/or create alliances with more BRICS countries.
I'll reiterate, as I stated earlier in the thread, the US has more influence in Israel then anons give credit, with Israel being largely prevented in the past from moving completely forward with certain operations, and Israel considering multiple times cutting ties so it doesn't have to be beholden to US go ahead. If nobody believes me the degree of control the US leveraged prior to the obscene amount of go ahead practiced by the Trump administration currently, then one only needs to look at Ariel Sharon and the direct influence US aligned political realists had in forcing a 180 in Israel's occupation in Gaza. You had an administration led by a man who had actively championed both occupation and settlements in Gaza, who was largely responsible for the second intifada emerging as it did, and has previously been responsible for some of the worst massacres in Israeli history, change his entire policy on the war into one of unilateral disengagement and the deconstruction of Israeli settlements. Now, unless you think he had some sudden change of heart, and the bastard just decided he no longer wanted to finish the job, it's obvious that the US (and other national political actors) had an immense influence in pulling Israel back into a controlled position. This also set the stage for the rise of Netanyahu, as a lot of Netanyahu's earlier popularity came from the fact that he was willing to push the boundaries of the Israel/US relationship and simply act, a kind of "man of action" in comparison to the timidity of previous administrations.
>>2253077>Russia has ties to Israel too, as much as Z posters will downplay itThis has been a sore point in some of the pro-Ukraine crowd as well. Israel has stayed neutral on the Ukraine war. Bibi took part in the Immortal Regiment parade alongside Putin a few years ago (holding a portrait of Volfas Vilenskis). Oh before I forget, one of Israel's recent Eurovision singers ended up on Ukraine's "kill list" (!) for performing in Crimea (she's Russian by birth).
>If the US dumped Israel tomorrow, you would likely see Israel go full tilt to consolidate regional control, and/or create alliances with more BRICS countries. Absolutely. India especially comes to mind.
>>2251942>Why do they get away with everything?I think a lot of people who support the Palestinian cause don't want to be critical of it or acknowledge the mistakes the Palestinian leadership and their organizations have made over the years. I have my own views on that but I'm only half-educated on it, and there are understandable reasons why people in solidarity with Palestine don't want to be critical – and, like, what would you do? That doesn't mean the cause isn't just, and it might have been the case that they have been facing a lose/lose situation over a long period of time. It can come across as acting in bad faith or concern trolling. That said, look up Noam Chomsky's criticisms of the PLO.
>>2253077good post
I would also add that Israel is a way for the US to launder its own (clandestine or overt) operations like bombing or sabotaging Iran
>>2253247>They would try for as long as it takes for the lack of all of the US's military and economic aid to cause irreversible damage to the project and of which no regional or global superpower would be willing to go to the same lengths as the US has in order to make up for such an absence. The US may have leverage, but that doesn't translate into power if the US doesn't use it. Which we can see historically has been the case. By the time you reach the position of president, chances are you've drank the zionist cool aid if not just for pragmatic politics cause it's easier to throw Palestinians under the bus. That or you've been blackmailed by Epstein. The times you mention the US pulling the entity back into a controlled position is largely dependent on the administration in question, which is ridiculous when you think about the theoretical disparity in power between the two, which imo can only be explained by the existence of the US's domestic zionist lobbies.I don't think you've really read on this topic at all, so at risk of repeating the oft repeated Mao quote, I would say you need to read up on prior foreign policy and the geopolitics of the 2000s. Most BRICS countries have amicable (and if not amicable, at least amendable) relations with Israel, though some of this is in question with recent events. We aren't really talking about recent events though, as we are discussing the idea that Israel has always been the one at the lead, and as mentioned before, the degree of "go ahead" we are witnessing now is largely an anomaly. On the topic of new allies though, if the last two decades is proof of anything, there are no hard no's in geopolitics if an edge can be gained, even if just by tolerating each other. If China or Russia accepted working with Israel, other BRICS countries would largely have to accept it. Saudi Arabia already does so with the US.
You are also largely incorrect on the point of presidents, if you are trying to say that previous administrations have submissively or over-generously allowed Israel to act without impunity due to adopting a Zionist stance. Do many president accept Zionism as "valid", or describe themselves as Zionist or Zionistic? Yes, but this is hardly a surprise and you don't need a blackmail conspiracy for this. You don't need to "drink the cool aid" on your way up, most white Christian americans are already ok with Zionism. It's the "safest" position to adopt and as you alluded to, a pragmatic postion to take because all it requires you to do is throw a minority with little power, in a region you will never see and never interact with, largely of a religion that many Americans treat with suspicion or disdain, under the bus. Regardless though, presidents have absolutely just said no to Israel, or pressured their administration, and succeeded in obtaining what they needed for the moment. If Israel had as much say as anons make it out to have, the second intifada would have ended with Gaza as it is currently and the settlements would be "cities" by now.
And of course what US administration is in power can play a role, and nothing about the "theoretical disparity" between the US and Israel makes it "ridiculous" for the US having to politik to get Israel to reel things in. That's part and parcel, the US was doing that throughout the world since forever, having to both appease and pressure to get what it wanted out of allies of convenience. But the fact that the US can swerve Israel's policy on Gaza from "burn it to the ground" to "we're going to leave and deconstruct all of the settlements", force them to wait on a loan until guarantees are met even when they rally AIPAC for it, and make them entertain forming a bloc with Egypt of all countries, shows how the relationship isn't as one way as it's made out to be. Do Zionists lobby? Absolutely, I don't think anyone has denied this. But is the dynamic one of only the Zionist lobby as the sole actor? No, that would be myopic.
>>2253241>I do think Israel and pro-Israel political forces in the U.S. (many Jewish) do try to push U.S. policy in a direction to serve Israeli interests that are not in U.S. interests.I can agree with this, but I think this is just standard for geopolitics. There will come times when you want your allies to support policy that is just what you want, and have to put it in a way that makes it sound like it's what you both want. The US has interests, and Israel has interests, and their capitalists so too. They can overlap, but in an "ideal" world for either power, a single policy line would be followed, and any overlap would be coincidence.
>The invasion of Iraq being an important one. Now, the U.S. might have done it anyways, but if you look into it you'll find Israelis and Israel-aligned Americans who were really pushing hard on that after the 9/11 attacks. Iraq and the history before the invasion is so complicated that we should really have a thread for it. Suffice to say, while Israel did support the US getting involved in Iraq, it took a lot to get there. You had the Iran-Iraq war prior, where the US backed Saddam and Israel backed Iran, you had the USSR on the brink of collapse and the US trying to secure it's position in the region, you had Saddam a few years later invading Kuwait (which caused issues in the international oil supply chain) and then trying to swap sides to ask the now dissolving USSR for support (I still do not understand this decision), you had the US forming a coalition that specifically left Israel out to get the Arab states on board (which left Israel for a period having to operate without support in quite a few things), then you had Saddam stating support for Palestine to try and disuade some of those states in that coalition from joining, then you had Saddam pull out, then you had this period after the war where Saddam thought that because he hadn't been disposed that his position as a counter weight to Iran had made him necessary to the US in the region, then you had Saddam burning all of bridges with every other Arab nation, then a small attempt for Kuwait again, then 9/11, then the Iraq War. There's a lot left out in-between, but like I said, it's complicated.
>The Second Intifada was going on, and Saddam has put himself forward as a stalwart for the Palestinian cause, and Saddam Hussein remains popular among Palestinians from what I understand. (The Israelis claim he financially supported terrorism by Palestinian groups but I'm not getting into that.)He did, but until I can find something saying otherwise, this seemed to be largely opportunistic. Israel already had issues with Saddam before this, this just kind of added to the fire. Interestingly enough, from what I understand, the US didn't actually address the Israeli accusations during the time due to the coalition.
I agree with the rest of what you stated though, you can believe that Israel does try to influence the US in certain foreign policy decisions while also not going the route of Jewish sorcerers.
>>2253334This specific line of argument is very weak it basically says that Israel is so important to the USA that it basically controls the USA and therefore Israel doesn't actually control the USA.
>Israel is the US's puppet>but it is such an important puppet it is basically the puppetmasterLOL
>>2253394Wow, you are so cool and amazing USA!!!
Always making people listen to you in one way or other and winning at the end. Thank you for benelovently leading the free world!!
A-and I want to be useful for you too just like how you always take care of us!!
Like um.. I can do…
M-maybe you can send your immigrants to our death camps so you will have less people to deal with? I really want to be useful!!
>>2253419>This specific line of argument is very weak it basically says that Israel is so important to the USA that it basically controls the USA and therefore Israel doesn't actually control the USA. Who said this? You're the only one coming to the conclusion that Israel controls the USA, the post you're replying to is in regards to capitalist interest in the region. I don't find that to be an honest counter argument to the earlier posts either, if that's what you're replying to. Not only is something being important enough that policy is built around it not an example of "control", but nobody even implied that it was important enough that it "controlled" the United States to begin with.
>Israel is the US's puppetIt's an asset and certainly a beachhead of US imperialism in the region, but I don't see any post which stated that it was out and out a "puppet".
>but it is such an important puppet it is basically the puppetmasterNobody said or implied this. I think some of you people who argue like this have a very myopic view of geopolitical relations, where relations are transactional in only one direction. Either the US has complete control of Israel, or Israel has complete control of the US. There is very little room for nuance.
>>2252783>>2252879An Israeli lobby exists, just like there is a Saudi lobby, a Qatari lobby, a Chinese lobby etc
The only difference is that the Israeli lobby is the master at this game and puts the rest to shame. You missed my point entirely, it is precisely the skill of the Zio lobby: to tie their interests with the interests of American imperialism. They started their work way back, before 1947, at the beginnings of the Zionist movement and have since then masterfully played the game.
I wish the Arab world viewed the zionist problem with less emotions and more realpolitik.
>>2253526>>2253529objectively still a genocide but the OP post is extremely insane, there are countless genocides going on in the world, in myanmar, sudan, ethiopia, the congo, etc, to say israel is "the only state that perpetrates genocides in the modern day" or even a more generous phrasing like "israel is the only state that perpetrates genocides and gets away with it" is wrong, sri lanka got away with the tamil genocide, rwanda with its counter-genocide in 1994-1997, and some more i can think of, israel is hardly unique in that regard
>>225412499.9% of leftists would personally execute every Israeli alive(the ones in Israel and the diaspora abroad sending funds and doxxing people), it is the controlled "leftists" that call it bait. Lately the label leftist has been so ruined by Bernie and AOC, leftists are starting to call themselves communists to distinguish themselves from the "left"
Join the American Communist Party
You can tell antifa was controlled ops because they haven't done ANYTHING about the literal Jewish fascists running around doxxing people and harassing people and handing out pagers
>>2251951Elaborate
>>2251942>Evilspooky
>Describes the basic trajectory settler colonialism for the past 400 yearsNow you're cooking
>>2253528bullshit. the material fact is the genocide continues because palestinian blood is is israel's means of production
> security jobs for the working class> stolen land for the petit bourgeois> arms contracts for the capitalistprincipled opposition to settler colonialism is literally in the manifesto, it takes less than an hour to read.
stop pretending to me marxist.
>>2254178Saying the Israel lobby controls US foreign policy is establishing basic fact and without establishing basic fact there can be no meaningful action
the defeatist disingenuous strawman you just put up to knockdown is something you don't even recognise as a fact
>>2254221>Saying the Israel lobby controls US foreign policyno, US senators control US policy and they CHOOSE to accept bribes from israel in exchange for voting them more money and Americans CHOOSE to not wage revolution against them for committing genocide in their name
>without establishing basic fact there can be no meaningful actionThe basic fact is Israel would crumble without US aid and Americans could at any moment arm themselves and march on the institutions propping up this genocide as the Bolsheviks marched on the Winter Palace.
>>2254226>Why do I need to fight AIPAC if they don't control anything?hey stupid asshole. if I give you money or blackmail you and ask you in exchange to do something fucked up, you still have a choice not to do it. That's the difference between influence and control. Do you think saying that US senators have a choice in accepting bribes is defending AIPAC. you stupid motherfucker. Do you think I'm advocating only fighting the US government but leaving AIPAC alone? because I'm not. you stupid bitch.
>>2254237lmao
>replace the disposable corrupt underlings instead of focusing on the origin of the corruptionhahaha
AIPAC Rep - Congratulations on your campaign.
American politician- Thanks.
AIPAC Rep- Well now that you are settled in, we can count on your support I hope.
American politician- I don't really approve of what's going on.
AIPAC Rep- I see, sorry to hear that, you know all of your colleagues support us, you'd really be the odd person out.
American politician- I just want to work for my constituents.
AIPAC- Ahh, how long until you run again?
American politician- Just a couple of years.
AIPAC- You know we can make this your last term right?
American politician- Is that a threat?
AIPAC rep- Just a fact. We can make sure your opponent has millions in their campaign, endless advertising, media coverage and I think we found a partner of yours that swears you were a bit too pushy on that date back in college.
American politician- …
AIPAC Rep- Or, we can give it to you, and a nice gift also, something to elevate your life, move you out of that apartment or house, something for later.
American politician- Are you threatening me and offering to bribe me?
AIPAC Rep- Absolutely not, it's your money after all. American tax dollars are sent to us we're simply giving it back to you so don't feel guilty.
American politician- I will expose you.
AIPAC Rep- Ahh I see, you are not the first one we've dealt with like this. Let me explain to you, no one cares. This little stand of yours, this moral objection you have, no one cares, your own people don't care.
American politician- This is corruption, the American people will find out and…
AIPAC Rep- Stop, listen to me. How many politicians here have scandles, multiple even, over years, decades?
American politician- A lot… too many.
AIPAC Rep- And yet here they are right? Americans don't care, they forget, they move on to whatever we point in front of them.
American politician- So what are you saying exactly?
AIPAC Rep- I'm telling you that you should take care of your family, your kids, your loved ones and yourself. Take our gifts, build a life and future for yourself and family.
American politician- And what about my constituents? What if they find out?
AIPAC Rep- I could show the world video of you taking money from me right now and the people would make it go viral, it will dominate the news on repeat if we want it to. And we can also make it go away as soon as we show them a white cop beating a black suspect, or a celebrity dying or a leader being found dead. We tell the people what to think and we create the stories they care about and are outraged over.
American politician- What if I still say no?
AIPAC Rep- That's fine, but understand you are alone, no one is with you and this WILL be your last term assuming we even let you finish. Also understand that no one will ever know or care about your moral grandstanding. This little stand of yours will never be seen and even if it is your own people love us so you will be hated by them for being antisemitic.
American politician- I just…
AIPAC Rep- Listen, take the gift, why suffer, why deny yourself and family an amazing life for some senseless moral high ground. I promise you, the people won't care, they haven't up until now. They know about it, it's open, they simply either support it or don't care. So the only ones who will lose here and suffer are you and your family.
Either you take our gift and prosper or we give it to the next person who will replace you that is not a righteous fool.
Listen to me closely, your own people do not care, they only want to beat the other side, they don't care how it happens, say what they want, do what we say and you will have an amazing career and be taken care of for life. You won't expose us, you won't beat us, the people literally do not care and even if they did they'd forget by next week as they do with all busniess such as this. Don't suffer for nothing, take our gift.
American politician- You can count on my vote.
AIPAC Rep- Wise decision.
>>2254148>Did the US Secretary of State falsify documents to cover up any of those genocides like it did during the genocide in Gaza? Did he break the Leahy law to send more weapons to accelerate either of those genocides?Indonesia. The Leahy Law has never been enforced.
>Or is Israel "unique in that regard"??? You zog shills need to up your gameYou retards are liberals in every regard. You play apologetics for the US state, implicitly making it out to be some benign entity that has only recently fallen from grace due to Israel. You fellate Kennedy and lament how the US presumably isn't strangling it's proles and the proles of other countries for it's interests instead. You have no analysis, and when Marxists state opposition to Israel, even call for it's dissolution, you fall into hysterics because their analysis for that isn't "everything the US ever does and did has been Israel".
>>2254124>>2254133>It's ACP shills spamming shitMultiple communists in this thread have provided a proper analysis of the situation, it's you people who huffed your own shit so hard that you've somehow come to the obscene and largely non-marxist position that Israel has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with US imperialism, and that literally all of US foreign policy has been entirely driven by Israel. That's what's complete nonsense.
>You can tell antifa was controlled ops because they haven't done ANYTHING about the literal Jewish fascists running around doxxing people and harassing people and handing out pagersAntifa isn't even some kind of organization, and this isn't true. Most anti fascist groups tend to overlap in also being against Israel.
>>2254247This is a cringe eye roll that makes fucking
US senators to be begrudging fallen heros who only ever wanted to serve their constituents before Israel. No analysis whatsoever, just pure narrative rhetoric. It's just AIPAC all the way down. It's not like multiple administrations that were openly pro-Israel were able to handwave them when they needed with little consequence, or that the US military complex, that lobby 10 times the size of AIPAC, has and continues to profit obscenely from Israel and generated tension in the region.
>>2254247>American politician- I don't really approve of what's going on.lol
>American politician- I just want to work for my constituents. LMFAO
>>2254237 (me)
Notice how I said this:
>Do you think saying that US senators have a choice in accepting bribes is defending AIPAC. you stupid motherfucker. Do you think I'm advocating only fighting the US government but leaving AIPAC alone? because I'm not. you stupid bitch...and this PRICK:
>>2254246pretended I didn't
and this PRICK
>>2254243>implied that I didn't but didn't have the balls to respond directly
dishonest fucks I am obviously saying burgers should fight their government AND the lobbyists.
I also made this post:
>>2254178 (me)
I am clearly saying that Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but
influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia.
Americans DO in fact have more agency in this situation than a legless palestinian child in Gaza who is 10x braver (out of necessity) than the average burger is (out of choice).
How many more dishonest interpretations of what I am saying can there be? You are not powerless to fight zionism. You are not under a magic spell. I suspect nazis love zionism because they get to use the Jews (who they hate) as a bludgeon against the Muslims (who they also hate) and they want to sit still until the genocide is over and THEN take action.
In "The Prince" Machiavelli talks about using a goon to do your dirty work for you, and then executing the goon in order to look like a hero, but only after he has done your dirty work for you.
>>2254318>Cool, then you understand that the US and the corporations within it have their own imperialist interests and aren't beholden purely to Israel.you can have that and the entire Middle East policy, dominated by AIPAC/Israel, like this
https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/trumps-nsc-director-israel-iran-formerly-worked-ministry-defense>>2254343this entire process happens in the primaries which is why you get Fetterman Vs. Dr. Oz, both zionist in the pennsylvania senate race. Aipac spends millions of dollars to rid itself of candidates who get out of line and is pending money doxxing students
>>2254361>Are you an AIPAC employee or something?no. bitch. this is my position:
>>2254353 (me)
> Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia. >>2254338>material conditions like this blackmail ring?Explain this
>>2253077 and this
>>2253263. Narrative stories are not an analysis.
>*KOSHER SCREECHING INTENSIFIES*Apparently when you critique Israel, but don't buy into the idea that it's the primary lobby,ignore capitalist relations, or play apologetics for US senators, you're now Jewish.
>>2254372what a transparently dishonest piece of fucking shit you are.
Remember. Nazis and Zionazis go hand in hand.
>>2254372>analyses capitalist influence on middle east policy>finds it to be negligible compare to the influence of the israel lobbyAnd that's stupid as hell. The military industrial complex is one of the largest lobbies in the US and dwarfs AIPAC, and the US has multiple times just turned down the Israeli lobby when trying to pursue interests that at times cause angst among the Israeli state, even in its foreign policy.
>deliberately vague, meaningless smearNothing vague about it, "realists" have always been narrow in how they view the world. Pretending that your views on policy aren't influenced by ideology (in this case an inability to address capitalist relations and viewing states as merely self-interested in a vacuum) is the greatest ideological cope of all.
>>2254390>pointlessly muddying the waters to cover for the jewish lobby controlling the political systemno, here is my position which I have stated multiple times and you do not respond to:
>>2254353 (me)
> Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia. >>2254388>And that's stupid as hell. Mearsheimer did the study. He found the facts. You just don't like them.
He's one of the best IR scholars in the world, you are just some retard on the internet. Know your place. I don't want to hear your stupid arguments again.
>>2254408>ur jewishwhy? Because I'm against zionists committing genocide with my tax dollars and have been repeating that this entire time?
>Besides the baseless smearing of Mearsheimer,I haven't said anything about Mearsheimer. You're arguing with more than one person.
Here is my position:
> Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia. >>2254388>dwarfs AIPACIt's not just aipac. Let us take adelson for example. Sheldon gave Trump over 250 million dollars between 2016 and 2020 and the GOP 415 million including trump
Last election his wife since he died gave Trump over 100 million dollars. There is countless more rich Zionist like this. Aipac is only 1 piece of the puzzle. Adelson said his biggest regret is that he served in an Americans uniform not an Israeli uniform in the military
>>2254428>downplaying the power of israel is elaboratinghey nazi retard, respond to
>>2254413with an actual answer
>>2254398>Mearsheimer did the study. He found the facts. You just don't like them.Mearsheimer did no such thing, and ommits any facet which contradicts the main narrative he tries to weave, that the US has only ever retained it's foreign policy because of Israel, and purposefully ignores all other lobbying interests.
>He's one of the best IR scholars in the world, you are just some retard on the internet. He's an IR scholar. Making him out to be one of the "best" makes you nothing more then every other one note Mearsheimer stan that uncritically adopts the position of one or two of his books to rationalize a position you already held.
>Know your place. I don't want to hear your stupid arguments again.Where do you think you are you entitled Chūnibyō?
>>2254372you oppose jews but support zionism because you're a nazi who wants to use israel to genocide muslims and then deal with the "JQ" aftwards.
I oppose zionism because I'm a communist against genocide and imperialism.
we are not the same.
>>2254388You have no idea how the Israel lobby even works. It doesn't need a lot of money because it has so many agents who will do it for free. That's why they like to compare it to Qatar. Qatar declares all its payments, its donations to universities (subsidies for Qatari students) are in the Qatar government's name, Al Jazeera is owned by the Qatar government. It's all above board and obvious. The money it spends is conspicuous. Israel has Unit 8200 guys in EVERY major US news network, its university donations come from jewish alumni and jewish "charities", its lobbyists don't have to register under FARA, its spies and strategists roam freely in the US like they own the place. The majority of US jews will help an Israeli agent for free out of a love for Israel, Mossad is known for having the best bang per buck of any intel agency in the world. It has Unit 8200 guys embedded in major US tech companies and arms manufacturers. The US signed a deliberately generous trade deal with Israel just to funnel more money to them, they basically handed over the Intel semiconductor company to Israel as a form of tech transfer to make it easier for israel to spy on us.
AIPAC is just the tip of the iceberg.
>>2254454death to all religions but necessarily not the people hypnotized by them.
here is my position:
> Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia. >>2254463>>2254463>He is spamming something irrelevant to the question of whether Israel controls US foreign policy, hint, it doesNo. I am repeating a counter argument that short circuits your brain and you refuse to respond to:
Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag.
This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia.
>>2254429>It's not just aipac. Let us take adelson for example. Sheldon gave Trump over 250 million dollars between 2016 and 2020 and the GOP 415 million including trumpIndividual Zionists donating to Trump does not surprise me. It's still dwarfed by other capitalist lobbies.
>Last election his wife since he died gave Trump over 100 million dollars. There is countless more rich Zionist like this. Aipac is only 1 piece of the puzzle. Adelson said his biggest regret is that he served in an Americans uniform not an Israeli uniform in the militaryThat's a fine thing for you to state, but it isn't a sufficient explanation and largely a handwave. A few rich Zionists could donate during a given campaign, and it still would not compare to the consistent and perpetual lobbying of various capitalist sectors. It's a narrow view.
>>2254470the american govt or the american people?
the israel lobby PREVENTS neither because the american govt has agency. a lobby is an influence, not a source of total control. you act like israel is guilty while americans are innocent. BOTH israel and americans are GUILTY. The American govt. is guilty of taking bribes. The israelis are guilty of giving bribes. The American people are guilty of cowardice in standing up to both their govt. and the zionist lobby. This is the part where you whine and say I'm jewish or ignore my post or call me a zog bot for the 30th time.
>>2254475>You are not even making an explicit claimliar.
Here is my explicit claim which everyone else witnessing this conversation is capable of reading:
Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia. >>2254480it's in the same post, the zionist lobby.
if I give you money, and tell you to cut your dick off in exchange for that money, and you do it. it doesn't mean I control you. stupid fuck.
>>2254445mearsheimer is a very "pure" representative of the realist school, much like how Berkeley and his solipsism is the purest example of empiricism
for what its worth I think mearsheimer is more on the point as a prescriptivist supporter of the american empire than as an academic analyst of geopolitics or american foreign policy
>>2254508i didn't tell you to light yourself on fire you stupid fuck. you really are such a dishonest piece of shit and it's completely obvious to everyone reading this conversation
look at what palestinians are doing to fight israel… while you go "ummm umm i can't do anything I just have to sit here until they finish off the palestinians because umm umm jews control me"
>>2254498We're back to square one
Again, dismissing an argument as as /pol/ or because the triple parentheses were used just looks like cowardice. Because it is. If you could refute the arguments you would.
>>2254512Again with resorting to calling anyone who says israel has power an antisemite.
So so far you are telling me if I say Israel has power I am a rabid anti semite and my only choice is to go shoot up government officials or police officers to voice my views. You are a literal federal agent
>>2254514>corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled"lol you have scare quotes in your
>principled stanceit is obvious that it a subject you wish to totally deny. You start with what you deny and then write a stance around it. it reveals your agenda
>>2254449>You have no idea how the Israel lobby even works. It doesn't need a lot of money because it has so many agents who will do it for free.Oh this is just moving the fucking goalpost. I am well aware of how the Israel lobby works, I just also have nuance on its scope. Is Zionism a "safe" position for a politician to take? Yes. This isn't the same as lobbying to get a politician to adopt a certain position on Israel though.
>That's why they like to compare it to Qatar. Qatar declares all its payments, its donations to universities (subsidies for Qatari students) are in the Qatar government's name, Al Jazeera is owned by the Qatar government. It's all above board and obvious. The money it spends is conspicuous. I am aware of this.
>Israel has Unit 8200 guys in EVERY major US news network, its university donations come from jewish alumni and jewish "charities", its lobbyists don't have to register under FARA, its spies and strategists roam freely in the US like they own the place. The majority of US jews will help an Israeli agent for free out of a love for Israel, Mossad is known for having the best bang per buck of any intel agency in the world. It has Unit 8200 guys embedded in major US tech companies and arms manufacturers. The US signed a deliberately generous trade deal with Israel just to funnel more money to them, they basically handed over the Intel semiconductor company to Israel as a form of tech transfer to make it easier for israel to spy on us.This take is overly presumptive and assumption riddled garbage though. You have to make unsubstantiated claims like the US transfered tech so that Israel could spy on the US better, despite the deal with Intel being a private one, with Israel just paying out to an existing capitalist corporation by means of the typical grants you would see any given western power do. Technology transfer also isn't anything new, the US has historically provided Israel a technological edge in the region, the result being that Gulf States have historically been forced to buy outdated US weaponry and technology to keep up. Your argument isn't very specific either, you just broadly state that Mossad and Unit 8200 are implicitly behind practically everything, as of that's an argument that could even be verified to legitimize or delegitimize it. Also, the point about FARA is moot, it wouldn't do much as most lobbies like AIPAC just register under LDA instead.
>AIPAC is just the tip of the iceberg.There's a lot more under the "iceberg" then zios.
>>2254564Deflection. I don't care what other post they made. The rabid level of support the USA is giving Israel thru this conflict is not helping USA advance their interest at all as I said.
Its costing them global soft power, led the USA population to oppose Israel in polling for the first time in history, leading Americans to actually want to stand up for pro Palestine people and reading regular first world countries people to turn against America for this level of support
>>2254569No, not everyone knows that, our police, our media, our finance, our MIC, and our entire political system is controlled by a jewish mafia. If waking people up to this makes one a liberal, I am a proud liberal.
Obversely, if wanting to cover up this truth makes one an israel shill, you are an israel shill.
>>2254547Donate to the American Communist Party
discourage everyone you know from joining the US military, there are other ways too such as organize to stop weapons shipments and production
>>2254595>Donate to the American Communist PartyI refuse to donate to larouchite grifters whose vision of "communism" is party members becoming petty bourgeois small business owners and giving a portion of their exploited profits to the party.
>discourage everyone you know from joining the US militaryI have been doing that since the early 00s.
>>2254579Your framing is so disingenuous, the problem is that only zionist politicians make it to the ballot because of Zionist organization.
The problem is the corrupt system only produces a pro-Israel ballot
>>2254630>>2254627samefagging a lazy response to yourself ?
this is my response:
>>2254628 >>2254551>>2254555Current events can not be used in the analysis of long term historical study. Israel absolutely was used for US interest, the amount of allowance given to Israel in this administration is starkly different then the controlled tension of others. See
>>2253077 and
>>2253263.
>>2254635Zionist do control american policy though.
How is this even deniable at this point? Lol.
People are being deported for protecting for Palestine, we have 40 states with laws that ban you from boycotting Israel, politicians regularly have are funded against hard if don't support Israel, USA continues to relentlessly support Zionist causes despite it continually losing domestic support rapidly and costing them soft power I could go on and on. The argument that we don't live under this at this point gets weaker by the day
Archiving this thread so that all the reactionary seething is immortalized
https://archive.is/indZh>>2254642Is the American government guilty of genocide alongside Israel or not? Do you have any right to call yourself "occupied" while Israel ACTUALLY OCCUPIES PALESTINE WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS WHILE YOU DO NOTHING ABOUT IT?
>>2254644Yes of course the US government is guilty of genocide alongside Israel. I would like to see everyone directly involved from the dozen or so countries that actively participated in the genocide to be hanging from the street lamps.
But we are in fact occupied. ZOG is real.
>>2254656No one is claiming Americans are being genocided or live under the quality of life of Palestinians at all. You are doing oppression Olympics type argument.
The horrendous things gazans go thru isn't any argument against the control Zionist hand over USA policy
>>2254672>This has nothing to do with capitalism and it doesn't require a nuanced understanding of geopolitics to understand.We live in a capitalist system, so it absolutely does. Wtf are you doing here, don't you have a Twitter or reddit thread to be in? Why are liberals showing up here?
>Israel tells us what our middle east policy is and we go along with it because they control our country. It really is that simple.That's not true at all though, I don't know how many synopsises of the last 30 years I have to write that none of you will respond to. Hell, try and explain the Iraq-Iran war. You people have done zero broad research on this topic, you just read a position you already agree with and then parrot it.
>>2254679Israel extending the war to kill more Muslims. Pretty simple really. And the fact that we live under capitalism doesn't mean capitalism is to blame for every single thing. There are other forces at play, other agendas besides profit maximisation.
>>2254680You said nothing of substance.
>>2254641>People are being deported for protecting for Palestine,Recent development under the Trump administration, and doesn't explain prior ones.
>we have 40 states with laws that ban you from boycotting Israel, American support for zionism isn't analogous to Israel running the US state.
>politicians regularly have are funded against hard if don't support Israel, Supporting Israel is by far the safest position to take in US politics. Only 9% of Christians have any major issue with Israel, and Palestinians are unfortunately largely of a complexion, religion, and size that many Americans will not care for them. Does AIPAC fund opposing candidates? Absolutely, nobody has made objections to this. But it's overstated how much control they actually have, and how much is just the result of the US having fundamentally settler colonialist roots itself and a population that has largely no issue with Israel, but of which a good part will take issue if a candidate takes issue with it. If 60% of people are neutral on Israel, but 40% support it, then the position to take is support politically. There's also the capitalist interest in maintain controlled tension in Israel.
>USA continues to relentlessly support Zionist causes despite it continually losing domestic support rapidly and costing them soft power I could go on and on.Only recently. Before current events, Israel actually had rather amicable or amendable relations with a lot of BRICS countries. The US had also put Israel in a position where it had to, at the very least, tolerate US aligned Arab allies. The US still had soft power in a lot of region even with Israel, and partially because of the tension Israel created.
>The argument that we don't live under this at this point gets weaker by the dayAgain, Zionists or Christian Zionists being able to swerve policy or an administration being pro-zionist itself isn't "ZOG". ZOG is something that implies far deeper and far longer control in a way that rejects any kind of capitalist role in US policy, and substitutes it for a vulgar liberal one.
>>2254685>Israel extending the war to kill more Muslims. Pretty simple really. And the fact that we live under capitalism doesn't mean capitalism is to blame for every single thing. There are other forces at play, other agendas besides profit maximisation.If you don't think settler colonialism isn't related to capitalism, I don't know what to say to you. The US began it's rise by genocide and sterilization, this is par on course for such projects.
>You said nothing of substance.State specifics, nothing in the post is overly complicated or obtuse.
>>2254730What is the nation of the bourgeoisie?
Israel
Do you mean to tell me capitalists only have 1 nationality?
Yes.
>>2254752old antisemitism: hatred of jews
new antisemitism: criticism of israel
nazoids are the first and usually the second, but decreasingly so
leftists are the second and painted as the first by Zionists
>>22547411948: The invention of capitalism and the bougeoisie race
In all seriousness though, you can't be this retarded. Either you're being factitious and stubborn, or you have a totally malformed view of history and the emergence of capitalism.
>>2254671>implies Israeli state control of all things from the top down with no capitalist say and with no accountability to the US state itselfhow is that implied? you're just making up crap
US populace views on israel/palestine wildly differ from what US representatives act upon and put out as their message, they get bribes from the zionist lobby, they cannot be elected without support from said lobby, the policies that come from this "relationship" are always to the detriment of regular americans in favor of israelis and never the other way around (US pays for their military, healthcare, tech, etc), boycotting israel is illegal in several (i think it's actually MOST at this point) US states, we can go on forrever
this is not up for debate, you can't just keep denying everything and pretend people can't just put one and one together by themselves
>>2254823He didn't mention Jews at all. You keep trying to call anyone an anti semite who talks about Israel
This tactic dosen't work anymore man. You need to actually argue now and make your points not try to a shame game. Calling people words isn't going to cut it anymore. Engage with their point
yeah found it, it's almost the whole thing at this point
>Most anti-BDS laws have taken one of two forms: contract-focused laws requiring government contractors to promise that they are not boycotting Israel; and investment-focused laws, mandating public investment funds to avoid entities boycotting Israel.don't worry about it, it's just capitalism bro
BUT WAIT!! you can't actually analyse this and look for more detail into these firms and donors because it's uhhh a conspiracy theory if you do, just say "capitalism" and suddenly the problem withers away
>>2254823if someone says "the jews" it's antisemitic because it's just 90% of them that are zionists, ok i understand and agree, fair
but if you make an active effort to specify in every post that you're talking about israel and zionists (which include zionist jews and zionist non-jews) then it's still le antisemitic because this retard rolls around and pretends you're saying something else
so why bother? i'm not sure
>>2254824>Engage with their pointit's impossible, there is literally no way to defend this denial without name calling and blatantly lying about what the other person is saying
you can be a republican or a democrat representative on the sole condition that you bow to either "conservative" or "liberal" zionism, you can share 99.9999% on every single partisan thing on your group but if you break with israel you're just gone
the only examples we can point out that escape this rule were either shot in the head or were removed from their positions, what's left are people like democrats like AOCia who vote no on pointless bills but votes yes on more military funds to israel, or some republican who goes on TV and says "uhm why don't we go muh 'merica first and save moni??" and then sends trillions more to israel
>>2254763you want me to say "the jews" so you can take a celebratory victory lap but let's go back over the history of this:
1. The bourgeoisie sets up the modern nation state in opposition to the old feudal patchwork of aristocratic fiefdoms
2. Capitalism normalizes wage labor, commodity production, and industrialization
3. Capitalism becomes imperialism and begins to dissolve the entire paradigm of bourgeois sovereignty as capital itself becomes more powerful than the nation states of the world
4. "The bourgeoisie has no nation" and "The working class has no nation" is a reflection of international class solidarity. The bourgeoisie already have international class solidarty. To combat them succesfully, the proletariat must also have this.
5. To say that "the bourgeoisie has no nation" is not to say that "the bourgeoisie doesn't control the government" it is to say "the bourgeoisie no longer needs the government to sustain itself and its relations to production"
This entire conversation you're having with me is a sleight of hand to get me to admit class relations don't matter and jews control the nations of the world, and the real struggle isn't a class struggle, but a struggle against the jew. I reject this, not only because it's retarded, but because capitalism will remain even if you're favorite boogeyman is gone for good.
>>2254915yeah religions are reactionary. We live in a reactionary world full of terrible systems that must be destroyed but there are certain retarded people who think you destroy the reactionary systems by destroying the people within it, rather than by getting at the root caus of those systems: Class society.
When you kill a vine you kill the taproot, but reactionaries preoccupy themselves with trimming leaves
i unironically see this fucking post:
>>2255107 after puking with the fact that zionazis post calling the mass extermination of palestineans and muslims:
>>2255094fucking kill yourself
>>2255115nukes are a paper tiger and israelis will just flee to the west.
not beating the zionazi allegations
>>2254826>if someone says "the jews" it's antisemitic because it's just 90% of them that are zionists, ok i understand and agree, fairwhy do you do this? no one would trouble you one bit if you bothered to distinguish between bourgeois jew and proletariat jew, between zionist jew, and anti-zionist jew. Everyone knows it's idpol to do otherwise. Lenin understood this in early 1900s Tsarist Russia, so you have no excuse. Every time someone does this shit "I'm gonna say Jew because 90% of them are zionist" the subtext is "I don't care what happens to the 10% who aren't"
It's especially telling when you come into a thread where people are making posts like this:
>>2254372 and you respond to anyone BUT them. you have endless snark and fake nuance for the opponents of
>>2254372 but you can't even muster a "fuck off retard" for
>>2254372You have people saying "death to zionism" in this thread and then 4pol glow anons show up and call them jews because apparently having a shred of class consciousness is Jewish now. But you have no remarks for this. Just slander for the people defending proletarian internationalism and class consciousness, and drawing a distinction between anti-zionism (which is anti colonialism) and anti semitism (which is reactionary bigotry)
>>2255172(cont.)
and then on top of this you claim in this post
>>2254799 that actually nuanced takes that hold american imperialists accountable for bankrolling zionism is "delusional cope" because they refuse to see that the American bourgeoisie isn't "controlled" by Israel but is willingly complicit in genocide. The difference between control and influence IS important because one implies no agency and the other implies some agency. American senators taking bribes from Israelis ARE influenced but NOT controlled. They are NOT off the hook for genocide. They are NOT innocent. They are not merely objects of israeli control, they make a deliberate choice to do imperialism and genocide on behalf of Israel which is a big difference from "control" narrative. That is why you vagueposted in this response
>>2254243 instead of directly replying to
>>2254237You're such a slippery piece of shit.
>>2251942I think it's because they know so many cultures are completely unprepared for the concept of bad guys coincidentally being jewish and/or using the jewish identity as a battle cry.
Many countries are still trying to get people to stop calling the jews evil, but now there are some evil people using the jewish name as their shield, which absolutely short circuits peoples brains, as they don't want to consider the idea that there could be nuance, or independent thought among a demographic.
America, for example, is still in the process of normalizing the idea that jews are just regular people and should not be oppressed, so jews are often made sure to be given a voice, since oppression has otherwise taken their voice away. isreal sees this and gets on the platform being provided for the oppressed, makes the claim that it represents ALL jews, then starts a genocide. now, with isreal claiming all jews as their people and utilizing the stage reserved or the oppressed, it is impossible or the average idiot to engage with it, because they were all taught "anybody who says no to jews are bad" because nobody who taught them had the brain to understand nuance. these people then grow up to run for office, despite having no concept of nuance or individuality.
tl;dr: fucking white people.
>>2255172 >>2254826you will find some issues where like 90% of muslims hold not so lefty views
that 90% of jooz are zios is not surprising to me
I am rather pleasantly surprised that one can find so many anti-zio jooz
I know for sure in other communities, you don't find many who are willing to oppose and confront the problematic beliefs of 'their kind'
>>2255177yeah the US ruling class is not innocent, they are zionists and are committing genocide in palestine, i agree with you
it's a zionist government, you agree with me
the people who live there don't share those views with the people they are governed by, so…. ZOG? yes?
>>2255191It is an eternal edging sesh lol
Palestine is too weak to defeat Israel but it is too strong to be completely annihilated, and its resolve to continue resisting till the end without compromise is unequalled. So the conflict is bound to continue forever
>>2255186>I think it's because they know so many cultures are completely unprepared for the concept of bad guys coincidentally being jewish and/or using the jewish identity as a battle cry.Yeah. The Israeli stuff I've seen is very tribal. It's like "it's either them or us." It's strictly zero-sum logic. They do construct a moral fiction around what they're doing, like this video which starts out with the poor widdle Jewish babies who were killed, but mobsters and criminals can also feel empathy for their own kids, and not for other people's kids.
>America, for example, is still in the process of normalizing the idea that jews are just regular people and should not be oppressed, so jews are often made sure to be given a voice, since oppression has otherwise taken their voice away. isreal sees this and gets on the platform being provided for the oppressed, makes the claim that it represents ALL jews, then starts a genocide. A curious thing about the position of Jews in politics has been through involvement or identification with universalist ideologies stemming from the Enlightenment. Communism is one but also liberalism. American Jews became model American liberals. Before Zionism, Jewish particularity was very much a religious thing for sedentary Orthodox Jews who wanted to live virtually unchanged from their ancestors in 19th-century Lithuania. Zionism on the other hand was fixated on the "New Jew" who rolls around in a tank, virtually indistingushible from the gentiles who had oppressed Jews over the centuries. There are American Jews who oppose Zionism, not out of reasons from ultra-Orthodox religious reasons, but in part because the universalist beliefs they have are not compatible with what they're seeing.
I suppose that's the tension in the Enlightenment project too. It proclaimed universal rights, but also enabled the formation of nation-states which are particular by definition. A Jewish nation-state is a state where Jews have equal rights and shared citizenship but not others.
>>2255195>wait til they learn that their holy text explicitly says that Israel's current existence is an act of defiance against god.Well the name Israel itself means "one who wrestles with God."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_wrestling_with_the_angel >>2255235tone policing is counterrevolutionary CIA-psyop shit
If I hear someone say Slava Ukraini I think the person is a Ukraine supporter not necessarily a genocidal, kill all browns with SS and black sun tattoos
If I hear someone say ZOG I at least know the person is based and somewhat of a freethinker unlike you
>>2255235>cosplays as a revolutionary badass>cucks out at violating the ADL's speech codeKWAB
You will never change the world
>>2254816>how is that implied? you're just making up crapThe entire use of ZOG by those who supported the idea was in regards to all or most policy being dictated by Zionists. Marxists critical of Zionism or Zionists in government never used "zog" as a description of the US state, as it lends one to narrowly examine it's relations.
>US populace views on israel/palestine wildly differ from what US representatives act upon and put out as their message,Until recently, no. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but only 9% of Christians have any serious issues with Israel. Anti-zionism is niche in the public, it's either neutrality on the topic or support.
>they get bribes from the zionist lobby, Didn't deny lobbying.
>they cannot be elected without support from said lobby,That isn't true though, multiple presidents have been elected despite spats with the lobby.
>the policies that come from this "relationship" are always to the detriment of regular americans in favor of israelis and never the other way around (US pays for their military, healthcare, tech, etc), boycotting israel is illegal in several (i think it's actually MOST at this point) US states, we can go on forreverWhy do you continue to think the government exists for the benefit of the people? The bourgeoisie benefits, it's imperial goals are met, Israel is kept in the western sphere as opposed to moving towards more BRICS alliances, it continues to be both a bulwark and a fulcrum to pivot around, etc..
>this is not up for debate, you can't just keep denying everything and pretend people can't just put one and one together by themselvesNobody here denies Zionism or that Zionist lobbies exist, we simply deny the degree of US policy and action you attribute to them, which inevitably end up being everything and anything.
>>2254824>He didn't mention Jews at all. You keep trying to call anyone an anti semite who talks about IsraelNobody called anyone an anti-semite for talking about Israel, everyone in this thread has an issue with Israel. The problem is anons perpetually coming into this thread to state that Israel is fundamentally behind everything the US ever does, and that nothing else shapes the decisions made by the state. I have watched anons be called Zionist because their analysis of the middle east was the traditional Marxist analysis of imperialism.
>This tactic dosen't work anymore man. You need to actually argue now and make your points not try to a shame game. Calling people words isn't going to cut it anymore. Engage with their pointWhy do you only reply with this in regards to claims of anti-semetism, and not when blatant anti-zionists are repeatedly called Jews or Israeli shills for not ascribing absolutely everything to Israel?
>>2255235>I don't disagree with the meaning of what you're saying.you admit that we agree, cool, so why were you insulting me and pretending i'm saying something completely different then? doesn't everything you said at me apply to you?
>"Slava Ukraini" means "Glory to Ukraine" 'which sounds innocent on its ownasinine comparison
slava ukraini, by itself even if you're just meaning to say "i like ukraine the country out of context in isolation to everything else" is still a nationalist slogan, you are describing your love/admiration/etc torwards that nation
on the other hand what i'm saying is a factual description of the government in america, one that you admit is not wrong
We are finally going to occupy the Gaza Strip. We will stop being afraid of the word ‘occupation,'” Smotrich told Channel 12 journalist Amit Segal during a conference organized by the right-wing Besheva newspaper.
“We are finally taking control of all humanitarian aid, so that it does not become supplies for Hamas. We are separating Hamas from the population, cleansing the Strip, bringing back the hostages — and defeating Hamas,” he said, adding that once the new offensive in Gaza begins there will be “no retreat from the territories we have conquered, not even in exchange for hostages.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-israel-should-embrace-gaza-occupation-idf-wont-leave-even-for-hostages/>>2254836>it's impossible, there is literally no way to defend this denial without name calling and blatantly lying about what the other person is sayingYou fags keeps calling anyone who rejects this simplistic view of the US and Israel operating together Zionsits and Israelis, despite being anti-zionist. It's not good enough to say the US and Israel work in tandem, and that both swerve respective policy, unless somebody states Israel solely controls the US state, they are a zionist shill.
>you can be a republican or a democrat representative on the sole condition that you bow to either "conservative" or "liberal" zionism, you can share 99.9999% on every single partisan thing on your group but if you break with israel you're just gone>the only examples we can point out that escape this rule were either shot in the head or were removed from their positions, what's left are people like democrats like AOCia who vote no on pointless bills but votes yes on more military funds to israel, or some republican who goes on TV and says "uhm why don't we go muh 'merica first and save moni??" and then sends trillions more to israelI have given multiple examples of US politicians and presidents reeling in Israel from its stated interests within the last half century. Are many politicians Zionists? Yes, and I have stated as much. But this doesn't require an Israeli in every ear or AIPAC preventing candidates, this is just a safe position to take in regards to both regular civilian perception and the US/Israel alliance. Being for Israel, or at the very least have goals that align with Zionist action, isn't very controversial among white American Christians, but it is quite controversial to be anti-zionist among them.
>>2255285>tone policing is counterrevolutionary CIA-psyop shitThe term "tone policing" in and of itself tone polices anyone who dares say something like "maybe you shouldn't go around saying something that was a nazi slogan for 50 years"
>saying ZOG makes you a based free thinkerdisagree
>>2255294I don't give a fuck about the ADL. the only place I ever saw "ZOG" before 2010 was in happy merchant shit from A. Wyatt Mann.
>>2255299based came from hip hop, namely Lil B The BasedGod
>>2255331OK just don't be surprised when Americans don't get that when you go around saying ZOG that you aren't doing dogwhistles but are "merely accurately describing the US govt."
>why were you insulting me and pretending i'm saying something completely different then?because you entered the conversation ITT when it already had an existing context. Namely me and other saying "yes zionism should be opposed but so should the US govt." and actual retard /pol/yp American supremacists who don't care about palestinians but only opposing Jewry, pretending to be stealthy coming in here and saying "you're Jewish for thinking that" and then have a million snarky responses for me and others but curiously nothing negative to say to them. I notice whenever a thread is full of shit like this:
>>2254372 you don't combat it at all
>>2255331>slava ukraini, by itself even if you're just meaning to say "i like ukraine the country out of context in isolation to everything else" is still a nationalist slogan, you are describing your love/admiration/etc torwards that nationon the other hand what i'm saying is a factual description of the government in america, one that you admit is not wrong
I don't think "occupation" is a factual description for the relation between the US state and Israel, and I don't think you are addressing appropriately what that anon is stating. When ZOG is used, it doesn't mean zionists simply lobby or have influence in US policy, it is a statement on the totality of the US state being controlled by zionists (and more historically specifically Jews) who dictate all policy from the financial to the social. The reasoning and historical context of the term is important. When somebody says "It's ok to be white", there is nothing on the face thats an issue, but it's the implciation and larger reasoning behind the phrase that's a problem.
>>2255342sandi anon has a million snarky reasons "ZOG" is ok and cool despite it's history on the US right for being a nazi slogan, but if you say "oligarch" in front of him he thinks it's an anti russian slur even if you're using it to describe american capitalists. meanwhile people like this
>>2254372 show up and he has ZERO of his signature reddit snark prepared for them.
>>2255356>You are soooo desperate to blame white people for jewish crimes it's absurd"anti zionism is a code word for anti semitism" - Jewish supremacists
"anti racism is a codeword for anti white" - the white supremacists who give them billions every year
you both use the same dishonest tactics. you're mirror images of each other. you also work together.
>>2255356Ashkenazi jews are just larping whities. Anyone outside of Europe understands this perfectly. Opposing Israel to us third-worlders is no different to opposing Apartheid SA or Rhodesia.
There is no such thing as 'ashkeNAZI jewish DNA'.
>>2255342>"populist narrative"this doesn't actually mean anything
>>2255357>dude just reply to everyone, even people who aren't talking to you or about what you're talking aboutvidrel
>>2255380there's nothing to address
>it's simplisticok, so is "free healthcare" or "jobs", doesn't mean that you can't use these things to onboard people into what you believe
you don't need to try and cram super complex concepts into every single slogan or term you use, if it works it works and that's the end of that
>"populist"meaningless libtard thought-terminating cliché + same as above
>>2254173some quotes referenced in that book:
>"the significance of what we did … is the freezing of the political process. And when you freeze that process you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package that is called he Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely" Weisglass also said that Sharon’s plan “is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.”the scary chemical used to preserve dead bodies for scientific examination
>“Mr. Sharon has the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat under house arrest in his office in Ramallah, and he’s had George Bush under house arrest in the Oval Office Mr. Sharon has Mr. Arafat surrounded by tanks, and Mr. Bush surrounded by Jewish and Christian pro-Israel lobbyists, by a vice president, Dick Cheney, who’s ready to do whatever Mr. Sharon dictates, and by political handlers telling the president not to put any pressure on Israel in an election year—all conspiring to make sure the president does nothing.”Thomas Friedman, sir, go on Chapo!
>>2255423>ok, so is "free healthcare" or "jobs", doesn't mean that you can't use these things to onboard people into what you believeMentioning healthcare and jobs isn't itself a narrative. The point is that the "narrative" is simple for what is complex, and that creates greater issues when dealing with terms which already have a direct political connotation. We aren't liberals, we aren't entryists, and we aren't opportunists. We don't say "It's ok to be white" to "onboard" people into discussions about race relations, or talk about the "Jewish bourgeoisie" to "onboard" people into discussion about the bourgeoisie.
>you don't need to try and cram super complex concepts into every single slogan or term you use, if it works it works and that's the end of thatSloganeering and the rhetoric of "it works" is a major flaw in "activism", but I don't think you want to hear about all that. The thing is, it doesn't work, particularly with the historical context of the term. ZOG doesn't communicate anything simply addressing Zionism couldn't, and like that anon stated, only exists to create a populist narrative about foreign occupation.
>meaningless libtard thought-terminating cliché + same as aboveLiberals using the term populist doesn't mean populist is a meaningless term. Marxists have historically rejected the simplicity of populist narratives that obfuscate systemic analysis.
Again, you didn't even address the meat of what he's saying, you just heard "simplistic populist narrative" and turned your brain off.
>>2255492see how the /pol/yp infiltrator retards have no real response to any of the nuance being brought up? They just repeat simplistic slogans (while Sandi and other "comrades" implicitly support them through their edgy trolling).
If I didn't know any better I'd say we are well on the way to the "farce" version of nazism in the United States. The 20th century version was the "tragedy" version. The 21st century version, the "farce" version will be led by Kanye West, Nick Fuentes and /pol/tard memelords. And they will fight the Jews who aren't Zionists harder than they'll fight the Zionists. Because Zionists and Nazis are completely compatible and interpenetrating social movements at this point. It is why Azovites tolerate Zelenskyy as their leader.
I repeat:
"anti zionism is a code word for anti semitism" - Jewish supremacists
"anti racism is a codeword for anti white" - the white supremacists who give them billions every year
you both use the same dishonest tactics. you're mirror images of each other. you also work together.
I repeat:
Americans have a REVOLUTIONARY OBLIGATION to fight the genocide that is being committed in their name with their tax dollars, and under their flag. This includes fighting both the LOBBYISTS as well as the corrupt POLITICIANS taking bribes from the lobbyists who are not "controlled" (which implies no agency) but influenced and complicit which DOES imply they are guilty of being corrupt bribe taking cowards who are willing to commit genocide in order to appease a lobbyist mafia.
>>2255423>there's nothing to addressLiar and stealth /pol/yp. This is your best friend ITT:
>>2254372You fight the actual communists ITT harder than you will fight
>>2254372 because you are a natsoc. It is always obvious when this topic comes up. That is why you make remarks like this:
>>2254826And ignore breakdowns of your BS like this:
>>2255172Nazis in poor camouflage are ITT trying to claim a monopoly on antizionism and Sandi-anon is their comrade enabling them. Nothing could be more obvious to anyone who has monitored and read this thread closely. The nazis hope by repeating simple slogans and denouncing communists as Jewish that they can take over this board and make it nothing more than a 2nd /pol/. They claim that calling them what they are is "Kosher screeching"
>>2254338Tor node was a mistake.
>>2256868Remember:>nazis and zionists are best friends>israel and the USA are the new axis>white supremacists and jewish supremacists work together>nazis are a false opposition to zionism while secretly supporting zionists>nazis denounce communism as "jewish" and try to make communism out to be a "jewish" conspiracy while simultaneously being the biggest dickriders of israel>nazis claim a monopoly on anti-zionism while being secretly zionist because they don't want anti zionism to actually appear reasonable>nazis are actually useful idiots of the zionists and make for perfect propaganda to shut down real, principled, anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist opposition to zionism coming from the international working class>>2257085Nobody on here says Israel has a right to exist. Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Workers OF THE WORLD unite.
>>2254815Yes, capitalism did that.
>>2257089listen librul AIPAC and affiliates are using their money and influence to silence antizionist voices and that is a fucking problem. destroy AIPAC and expel Israel firsters form the government and tech companies
https://www.donotpanic.news/p/the-former-israeli-spies-buildingalso the idea that Israel lobbies the USA to do policy that is already in the USA's best interest is incomprehensibly illogical.
>>2257344>in the USA's best interestThis gives away your game. This is why I keep calling you guys reactionaries. You ONLY want to expel the zionists from the imperialist US government. That's not far enough! The US is a reactioanry government and would continue to be one without the zionist influence. Your entire world view is predicated on "US only bad because zionist infiltration"
LOL US imperialism must be defeated.
>>2254424Are you being stupid on purpose? The pedophilic nature of our politicians is not the main issue here, it's a symptom of a larger problem. The larger problem is that they are bourgeois. The overarching problem is that there is a bourgeoisie to begin with. Stalin should not have stopped at Berlin. He should have stopped at San Francisco.
Here is the issue: you have two sections of people. One section is the Euro-American bourgeoisie. Another section is the illegitimate Settler-Colonial Entity currently occupying Palestine and a number of other parts of other countries.
As for the Euro-American, or Western, bourgeoisie. In principle the class they constitute forms both the vast majority of those who hold high office, elected or otherwise. Secondly, the precise placement of Palestine is, if you look on a map, extremely close to the Suez canal. That is to say, the very placement of Palestine is vital for the flow of oil to the West. Oil carried by tankers flows from the southern middle east and up the Red Sea. It then proceeds through the Suez canal. These tankers move through the Mediterranean and sail right by Israel. Western support of Israel was fucking inevitable, it isn't because of some "international mafia that controls them." That's horseshit.
What is really happening here is these are four legs. Europe, USA, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. They comprise a system of feedback loops which put together do create the conditions for the ongoing genocide in Palestine.
It's their class interest, dude. They LOVE and SUPPORT Israel because it's in their class interest. Not because some Jewish laser put a microchip in their brain, or because "the Jews" have them by the balls or whatever. Israelis are barely even Jews half the time anyways. Literally half of them, or even over half of them, do not believe in God.
It's not that Israel is super powerful. It's actually *because* it is weak that it is doing all of this. If the USA evaporated tomorrow, inshallah, Israel would be forced by circumstance to grow closer and closer to Europe. There, the capacity of the alliance would be far more tenuous, I believe.
So, the point of all of this is that for Americans, to reject Israeli bullshit is simple and easy to do. I do it every day. However, there are very few actions a single American can take against Israel as a whole. There are still indirect actions, which involve putting pressure on US politicians, media, and corporations. This fundamentally requires combination of power, otherwise it's rudderless and out of wind.
>>2257818Dogshit. Brother the US has been imperialist for a very, very long time. The US is a settler colonial entity, about as legitimate as Israel in the grand scheme of things. It was built for a bunch of rich slaveholders and bourgeois cuckolds and it used the ground up gristle of peasants, artisans and proletarians to keep it that way.
The bourgeoisie spends our blood and our money on keeping "our" rivals (really their rivals) in check. The intent has always been to dominate the markets wherever physically possible. Whenever an alternative to capitalism came about, the US bourgeoisie has been united in opposing it. Where possible, they have sent our American sons and daughters and our brothers and our sisters to go and kill our foreign brothers and sisters and sons and daughters in other countries.
Aint no Palestinian ever called me a terrorist. No Vietnamese ever called me trailer trash. It ain't the Chinese that raised my rent or the Cubans who made me starve when I was a young man.
US Bourgeoisie is an imperialist bourgeoisie and Lenin's instruction still holds. Defeatism - utter defeatism. Work towards the ultimate defeat of our bourgeoisie so that our country can breathe at last.
>>2258176Both have "influence" over one another. It's incomplete influence ofc but hey whatever.
Like I said here
>>2258175 the goal should be for Americans to fight American bourgeoisie. Leave defeating Israel to the Palestinians - they're going to win, I think.
It's literally the flag of Moloch.
The hexagram only became a symbol associated with Judaism because Christians forced Jews to wear it to identify them with Satan, which is repeated in the Nazi laws. I can't say I'm an expert but I'm pretty sure any association with icons or idols is a non-starter for Jews and association with that icon in particular has to be galling.
Aside from that, there is a direct line from the Confederacy and the very worst that created the US Civil War and Israel, and that is a fact that the Jews can't escape; the Jewish interest in the slave trade, which manifested strongly in the Zionist movement and its vanguard.
I think a lot of people want to see the Zionists as Jewish Nazis and Germanic, but they are their own evil… and if you really want to get into history, the Nazi regime and its fellow travelers pushing for such a state to exist also come back to the same source, which is the question of slavery, race, and biological politics. To truly understand it, it must be understood that Israel is the world's first purely eugenist polity, and its conduct and ideology are entirely a result of that. Nazi Germany was constitutionally committed to the rule of a eugenist party but had to maintain nationalist pretenses and placate interested parties like the Army and proprietors large and petty who bought in to the German war mobilization and seizure of property Nazism entailed. The Nazi Party was hardline eugenist but had not yet fully made the country a "eugenist country". They didn't last long enough and had to work with the impulses and traditions largely unchanged from their 19th century predecessors. Only the vanguard true believers and their fellow travelers were "true Nazis", and their first task was mandating that everyone who wants to be someone join this vanguard. Said vanguard then ran Germany into the ground, lost the war, and ran off with the gold, which is always what eugenists do. The Nazis were never particularly popular, since it's hard to be popular when your party slogan is "everyone who doesn't agree with our kooky cult is not a real German" and the whole Nazi thing was about cannibalizing a country from within as fast as they could. There's also the inconvenient truth that the backers of the Nazis, the truest believers, thought the Nazis were too soft on eugenics compared to what the creed demanded.
The Confederacy wasn't constitutionally committed to eugenism as such, since eugenism only began after the war. Neither was the UK constitutionally eugenist or dominated politically by a hardline eugenist polity, nor was the post-Civil War United States or the regime that came in during the 1930s. The evil can only be understood when someone sees that all of the evil hitherto known is a pale shadow of what eugenics demands the world must be. We only began to see what the vanguardists want the world to be around the 1970s and especially the 1980s. There was not enough penetration of the eugenic creed into daily life, institutions and the memory of human being until that time. Israel was a vanguard for that movement, founded on a specifically eugenic vision for the Jewish race and its purpose in the world, and exists to impose that purpose on every other countries and obligate their rulers to align with the ruling vanguard. The countries partnered with Israel retained their national and democratic constitutions in some form, or retained a mobilized nation and institutions with aims that were not wholly eugenist. Israel's aims are wholly eugenist and screamingly so. They chose that as the new world religion, and are the first country in the world wholly and ultimately committed to the task.
The ruling vanguard of the US is now eugenist, but the country and far too many of its people abhor the eugenic creed and must because they know their lives have been destroyed by it. Even those who are bound by their social rank and position to the eugenist vanguard are in it for themselves more than the "greater good", and the eugenists in the US have largely relied on mass poisoning and maximal torture to impose their will in the most gruesome manner possible. Israel is given all manner of goodies. The US funds their army and indirectly gives to the Israelis a standard of living that is exorbitantly high, even if it is riddled with fakeness and an illness of their whole society. They receive free health care, and come to American hospitals and have everything handed to them, no questions asked. They do not suffer. It's less a paradise for the "base" of Israeli society, but the Israeli society is one that lived under siege, and has been indoctrinated throughout the living memory of anyone there to believe in the eugenic creed and the inevitability of "Greater Israel". You will find very few Israelis that truly see they must leave the project, and they are the ones forced to stay. "Israel" is of course global in its reach, or close enough to it and can push "proxies" to support them on anything Israel can impose on the countries that have no such ties or favorable treatment of Israel. No other country can do that. It's something that must be remembered when speaking of what "Israel" is, rather than succumbing to the narrative of nation-state essences that "just so" fight. I don't think it's possible to speak of the "wrongness" of Israel and what it is without having seen enough of it and asking how it came to this, and not falling into the trap of saying it was Judaic evil made manifest (a narrative the Zionists promoted early and often because they believed it made them look "tough"). Then you look at Herzl and see he was a madman, barely functional and far worse than Hitler ever could be, which is saying a lot. Hitler had the support of the generally disgusting German hardcores, but Herzl was a whole other level of sadistic evil in one man. The guy oozed an aura of death that leads someone to question why they would follow him. Herzl's problem is that most of Europe's Jews either wanted to keep what things they did have or wanted peaceful coexistence by that point, because they knew the sort of people who were coming for them in the 20th century. They didn't want to submit to an imperial British scheme to make the world suffer and jack up the global death rate, for which they would receive no particular benefit or purpose.
The real evil of course is the eugenic creed and its truest believers, but of the countries extant today, only Israel is "fully eugenist" and has stood for a sufficient length of time to have its own claims, unlike say "Ukraine" whose name is literally Borderland, whose "language" is a dialect of Russian, most of whom would have seen the Russians as their brothers and sisters, and whose government is a joke parliament propped up by the Bush coterie. Their international officials speak English to demonstrate their subservience ffs. That's not a real country. That's an excuse to engineer a bullshit war to kill poor people.
>>2258199>The hexagram only became a symbol associated with Judaism because Christians forced Jews to wear it to identify them with Satansounds made up
<The hexagram does appear occasionally in Jewish contexts since antiquity, apparently as a decorative motif. For example, in Israel, there is a stone bearing a hexagram from the arch of the 3rd–4th century Khirbet Shura synagogue in the Galilee.[14][15] It also appears on a temple on Bar Kokhba Revolt coinage which dates from 135 CE.[16] Originally, the hexagram may have been employed as an architectural ornament on synagogues, as it is, for example, on the cathedrals of Brandenburg and Stendal, and on the Marktkirche at Hanover. A hexagram in this form is found on the ancient synagogue at Capernaum.[14]
<The use of the hexagram in a Jewish context as a possibly meaningful symbol may occur as early as the 11th century, in the decoration of the carpet page of the famous Tanakh manuscript, the Leningrad Codex dated 1008. Similarly, the symbol illuminates a medieval Tanakh manuscript dated 1307 belonging to Rabbi Yosef bar Yehuda ben Marvas from Toledo, Spain.[14]
<14. "King Solomon-s Seal", with credits Archived October 16, 2013, at the Wayback Machine Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs< 15. Dan Urman & Paul V.M. Fesher (eds.). Ancient Synagogues, p. 612, BRILL, 1998<16. Plaut, W. Gunther (1991). The Magen David: How the six-pointed Star became an emblem for the Jewish People. Washington, D.C.: B'nai B'rith Books. pp. 26, 61–62. ISBN 0-910250-17-0. >>2258175Neither the US nor UK or West largely supported Israel early on, Israel, sadly, was largely supported by the USSR and Zionists were armed through Czechoslovakia.
Israel is not a US outpost as much as people want to claim otherwise. If Israel was a US outpost, all lobbying would be going the other way to keep Israel in line for achieving self-determination, there would be massive crackdowns on in Israel for opposing US influence in their politics, but there isn't, because there is barely any if any at all, influence in Israeli politics.
Israel has always been a "Frenimie" to the US. It's never played nice with the United States, it largely does not cooperate with the US when push comes to shove, it has engaged in widespread espionage and subterfuge against the United States. Mossad even harasses US embassy staff. Do you think a vassal would bring his dirty laundry, for the Emperor to clean in his palace? No, yet that is what Netanyahu does to the White House.
The Left keeps coming up with insane amounts of copium for just the simply fact that ZOG is an 100% accurate descriptor of the situation.
The reasons are largely this
1: Jewish people are the most extremely privileged demographic in the west and tonnes of Jewish people basically became the elite power brokers of Western Politics and Elite society. Elite Jewish people dominate Political media networks, Dominate old boy country clubs, advertising and PR agencies, Think Tanks, Finance etc.
People can claim this is a "conspiracy" or "Trope" all they want but it's just blatantly true and easily provable by looking at the last names of any major power broking figures and orgs from the US to the UK to Australia to France etc. The reality is this isn't even "hidden" as well, read the autobiography of political powerbroker Mark Liebler who openly brags about Jewish sheer dominance of elite society and ability to push through Israel's agenda, or Australia's former Foreign Minister Bob Carr, who said that Zionist figures basically dominated Australian politics and had access to the Prime Minister more than the Cabinet did. If you want a more insidious look at these power broking old Jewish country club network's listen to Maria Farmer's statements about her time working as the PA to Epstein and Maxwell and how Epstein, Maxwell, and their entire billionare elite clique would talk about "Goyim".
The idea that people, who on average are incredibly ingroup biased, and largely ultra-nationalist Zionists, would not use these positions to push certain agenda's, is frankly, incredibly naive and frankly, almost insulting to the point of Gaslighting. Instead, people come up with somehow, it's Christian's responsible for all of this, instead of just calling a spade a spade. So the logic is, Jewish people will never push agendas in power, but Christians will. Someone explain this one too me?
2: What also happens, is because Jewish people make up huge parts of the elite and elite culture, who do the WASP elites all identify with? Is it cletus from bumfuck Idaho? Nope, it's Jewish people. Hence why the typical WASP elite will play along with literally every bad faith crybullying claim of Antisemitism from people who are clearly just spouting nonsense to shut down political opposition. Friends stand with Friends. (Watch the exact same thing happen to Brahmin Hindus when they are criticized for Hindutva more and more)
3: Holocaust ""guilt tripping"" being the "core foundational myth" of the post-WW2 Liberal order.
The Pro-Israel bias is largely a mixture of emotional "Holocaust Industry" guilt tripping of Boomer and Gen X generations who took the lesson away from the Holocaust that "Jews are the most discriminated and hard done by people in history, and they should be mollycoddled and put on a pedastal for our repentance and sins" instead of "Genocide is pretty bad". Elite Solidarity with Jewish people who they see as an elite demographic and a group they identify with more than the average person, and both of these things, being weaponized by extremely narcissistic elite Jewish people, who realize they basically can do anything and say anything and get away with anything they want because all they have to say is "antisemite" and shed a few crocodile tears to opposition to see anything opposing them or anything that even mildly inconvenciences them crumble away.
Note, this isn't all Jewish people, the power brokers are obviously elite people who happen to be Jewish. What I do feel though is that the majority of the Jewish community is all too happy to play along with what is clearly weaponizing antisemitism claims, and these sorts of biases and crybullying to help push a Pro-Israel agenda. Another issue the Jewish community has is pathetically thin skinned victim complex which has blatantly manifested into Ethno-Narcissism. The amount of times I've had Jews tell me, they are the most "discriminated against people in the entire world", is honestly unreal. Yes, so discriminated against the average Jewish person in the West sits on a 6 figure income and is massively overrepresented in every elite position in society, totally worse off than a Native on a Rez, or a poor white in the Rust Belt or a Black person in a Tennessee ghetto lol. Notice as well, any Jew that does not play along with this bullshit, is instantly labelled a "fake Jew" which is pretty much a self-admission by much of the Jewish community, that they have a group-think and pathological ingroup bias.
People can pretend all they want this isn't the case, because of Nazi Germany or whatever, but frankly, it's just either bad faith or copium. The fact is that elite Jews weaponized their privilege and victim status and much of rest of Jewish people play along with it for bias/social/political reasons.
>t. minority who has seen some of these shitty attitudes and attempts to weaponize victimhood in the exact same way numerous times. >>2258362>>2258360Also
>Jews are the richest religious group in the USA, the richest and most powerful country on the planet.>Jewish billionaires are overrepresented in proportion to their total population in the US, and many of the non-Jewish billionaires strongly support Israel.>Same as above but with New York landlords>neoliberal organizations like Heritage foundation and Cato institute are financed by the koch brothers (two jews) and many of the think tanks of libertarianism/neoliberalism/free market fundamentalism are jews (Murray Rothbard,Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, Robert Nozick, David Ricardo)this is the reason why clowns like Javier Milei and other Lolbertarians are so supportive of Israel.etc etc etc
There is a good reason why according to the eschatological prophecies evangelical Christians believe in, the entire world will betray Israel and declare war on them (even their lovers). They believe it's a kind of punishment from God to make them accept Jesus as their Messiah and for Jesus to reset the world at his second coming establishing utopia on Earth. (sorry for the schizophrenic shit).
>>2258360>Neither the US nor UK or West largely supported Israel early on, Israel, sadly, was largely supported by the USSR and Zionists were armed through Czechoslovakia. In addition to that, there was already an existing Marxist critique of Zionism (because it's nationalism) but there were a lot of people on the anti-fascist left that had their formative experiences in the 1930s/1940s who supported Israel in the beginning because they supported the Jews and saw their Arab enemies as reactionary feudalists along with the British. The Palmach, which was the more professional strike force of Jewish soldiers in the 1948 war, was also basically controlled by the Communist Party. But today the left will tend to refer to the more right-wing Revisionist Zionist groups like the Irgun and Lehi (the latter ended up developing some weird nazbol ideology). But it's true, the core of the toughest Jewish fighters in the war (which were the Palmach) were communists. The main force (by numbers) in the Haganah were basically the armed wing of the Histadtrut, a socialist labor federation. The Palmach was like a communist strike force within the Haganah. This is unbelievable to some people but there was also a change in the left where the workers were sort of substituted for by "the party" and then people became disillusioned with "the party" and that was then substituted by third-world nationalist movements as a more authentic revolutionary force and which were in conflict with Zionism.
Now that stuff about Zionist leftists is obviously no longer the case – it was on its way out in the 1970s – and Israeli politics has moved far to the right. And that is doubly traumatic for old Jewish leftists who were into this stuff because you can't support Zionism and be on the international left, you will excommunicate yourself, and then Israeli politics is way to the right now and the rightists have been liquidating the socialist heritage of it. I think it might be less problematic to be into this stuff within a specific Israeli, Hebrew-speaking context but nonetheless that's the context. The movement to the right in Israel is also seized on by anti-Zionists leftists who say "ah, see! We told you so!" That reveals the fascist context of Zionism all along! But it also seems just as much a global phenomenon as well. As Israeli politics was moving to the right, so was American politics, and the USSR collapsed and all kinds of rightoid ideologies reemerged in Russia, and there was the Islamic revolution in Iran, which liquidated the Iranians who wanted to replace the Shah's regime for a democratic, secular and socialist government. And by the 1990s the secular nationalist PLO basically capitulated and set itself up as the corrupt compradors in the West Bank who cooperate with Israel, while Hamas emerged as the faction of armed resistance, and Hamas is an Islamist party.
>Elite Jewish people dominate Political media networks, Dominate old boy country clubs, advertising and PR agencies, Think Tanks, Finance etc.Well the most elite country clubs in my city didn't allow Jews until the 1990s. And this is a city with many prominent Jews. There's a certain kind of discrete WASP-ish antisemitism that existed for a long time, that was like "you're not part of the club." But things have changed a lot. I don't disagree with the rest of your post as brutal as it is.
>t. minority who has seen some of these shitty attitudes and attempts to weaponize victimhood in the exact same way numerous times.I think there are some differences between Israeli Jews and American Jews. Like, a lot of this bellyaching about antisemitism and weaponized victimhood, the Israelis do that too in international arenas, but the average Israeli who is serving in the army seems way chuddier compared to the American ones. Honestly I don't think the average Israeli gives a crap what the rest of the world thinks, it's just the mentality of the place, and they speak Hebrew most of the time so their mentality reflects more what's going on in this internal Israeli Hebrew context than an American political context. I might be wrong but it feels that everyone calling each other racist and antisemitic – or maybe in a particularly American way where everyone is constantly moralizing about it – exists more within an American context where everyone is trying to play this identity politics game. And the Jews in America also play that game. You also see the Republicans now squashing pro-Palestinian speech on college campuses, which allows them to act like the most censorious woke people they have imagined without any bad conscience, because they're slaying antisemites.
>>2258360Americans are to weird about Jews, anti-Semitism is as valid a belief as any anti-theist belief. Not the racialist stuff but any hierarchal organization with limit to no oversight is going to be doing bad stuff. Religions are inherently structured that way.
>It's Christian's responsible for all of this, instead of just calling a spade a spade.They are 80% at fault for our current Zionist occupied government. They are committing treason because they want to fulfill biblical prophecy and or are pedophiles that got scooped up in the Epstein blackmail ring. The other 20% is our corporate overlords that profit from genocide by selling surveillance and weapons tech and use the Palestinians as test subjects.
Outside of that I agree 100% with everything else you are saying. The victim complex is insane, the idea the questioning Judaism in anyway will immediately turn all Americans into goose steppers is ridiculous.
>>2259148>They are committing treason Treason against the bourgeois imperialist empire that is the United States? That's not the problem. The genocide and everything else is. Anyone who prattles on about poor America in this is fundamentally failing to put the US American govt. alongside the Israelis as equal partners in guilt.
>80% of demographicI see numbers ITT over and over 90% if Jews are zionazis, 80% of Jews are zionazis. Which is it and where are you getting these statistics? Any time anyone tries to bring up X% of Jews are zionazis the basic implication is "it's big enough to write off the rest". I'm very suspicious of that kind of rhetoric for that reason. And when I point this out earlier ITT the response to me was "you must be Jewish." No. I'm not. But it's telling that's the first conclusion someone jumps to.
>>2259163If thats they way you want to slice and dice it. The whole thing becomes stickier when Judaism itself is an ethno-religion. You're right in that Nazi anti-Semites and honestly Zionist too, won't make the distinction between a religious Jew and "ethnic" Jew.
>>2259172>didn't read my post I said ZOG is 80% the reasonability of Christians. As for the treason, yeah I do care that my government for how shitty it is and responsible for the situation. Is committing treason because they're either a pedophile and or a doomsday cultist trying to fulfill biblical prophecy. I also think its very important that we keep hammering the fact any Zionist currently holding a position of power is illegitimate and an agent of a hostile foreign government. If for basic propaganda reasons alone.
>>2258360>Israel is not a US outpost as much as people want to claim otherwise. If Israel was a US outpost, all lobbying would be going the other way to keep Israel in line for achieving self-determination, there would be massive crackdowns on in Israel for opposing US influence in their politics, but there isn't, because there is barely any if any at all, influence in Israeli politics.>Israel has always been a "Frenimie" to the US. It's never played nice with the United States, it largely does not cooperate with the US when push comes to shove, it has engaged in widespread espionage and subterfuge against the United States. Mossad even harasses US embassy staff. Do you think a vassal would bring his dirty laundry, for the Emperor to clean in his palace? No, yet that is what Netanyahu does to the White House.>The Left keeps coming up with insane amounts of copium for just the simply fact that ZOG is an 100% accurate descriptor of the situation. The US does play a role in Israeli politics, and saying it doesn't or has never is something that I see some people like you in this thread parrot, but never substantiate. Looking at the 40 years in regards to how the US and Israel have operated and attempted to influence each other would be enough to show anyone critical that it's a lot more complicated then people make it out to be (as laid out here
>>2253077 and
>>2253263), but instead you have anons who will say things like "the US has little influence in Israeli politics" while never bothering to study Israeli politics. Netanyahu as a political reaction to the Sharon/Olmert capitulations would never have occured if the narrative you spin was the case. Ironically, a lot of this "analysis" you and others make is US centric, and I think partially has to do with the fact that the news most people receive in regards to Israel is when Israel does something "grandiose" enough to warrant attention. Otherwise, Israel kind of just "exists", and the internal political situation in the country isn't taken seriously, despite being necessary for a complete analysis. The US having no grip on Israeli poltics definitely isn't something Israelis have been feeling for the last half century, and has been a source of angst among all parties, particularly the right most who's rhetoric has relied on the premise that Israel (until recently) has been too beholden to the US, in a kind of "Trumpist" framing of geopolitics.
I also greatly disagree with the vassal arguement you and others use. I disagree that "vassal" is an appropriate way to describe Israel, but if we are to take the vassal descriptor seriously, history is littered with examples of vassals externally appearing like they are receiving the better deal in the relationship and heavily influencing the political court of the "dominant" kingdom or empire. This happened with England, with the HRE, with Japan, with Poland and Lithuania, with China, etc..
ZOG is a myopic descriptor, we've had multiple posts explaining why and the reason that using such a term is antithetical to our position. You can keep trying to call it copium, but the fact that the posts that explain why get very little response, and instead get short broad handwaves that simply dismiss the honest arguments presented, shows an unhealthy attachment to the term that necessitates rationalizing it despite it's larger connotation being counter to a Marxist analysis.
>>2259796>>2259882Talking about Zionist influence isn't anti-semetic, but "ZOG" and the narrow views it facilitates absolutely is anti-semetic and has anti-semetic context and origins. See:
>>2253241>>2255342>>2255344You can't divorce the use of the term "ZOG" as publically understood from the right wing conspiratorial thinking surrounding it, just like you can't divorce the terms "race realism" or "JQ" from their origins.
>>2260021>They never claimed they were indigenous to Palestine. They claim they came from Egypt and that Israel belongs to them because god promised it to them, hence 'the promised land.' This is true but ignores the first part of the story. The Hebrews in old testament mythology start with Abraham (since he made the covenant with God that's the start of God's "chosen" people in the OT), Abraham starts in Ur (Iraq), ends up in Hanan (Syria), from there he's called by God to Canaan (Palestine), then Abraham moves to Egypt but returns to Canaan and dies there. Jacob and the patriarchs start off in Canaan (Palestine). Jacob's son Joseph is sold into slavery and ends up in Egypt. Due to famine, Jacob and all his sons move to Egypt, where they settle and grow into a large people. Only after all of this happens does the Exodus story take place. So in general yes, they do migrate to the "promised land" but they do so several times over several centuries. Abraham is first given the land due to the covenant with God, and only after repeated exiles to Egypt do they come back and conquer the inhabitants.
It's all bullshit mythology that might loosely be based on real migrations (there was a common phenomenon of seasonal migrant laborers moving back and forth between the levant and Egypt all through the bronze and iron age) but yeah it's somehow even more clusterfucked of a narrative than what you described.
>>2260175>ZOG is the most accurate termhere is its literal origins:
An early appearance of the term was in a 1976 article, "Welcome to ZOG-World", attributed to an American neo-Nazi named Eric Thomson, but Canadian white nationalists also used the term. The concept (although not the term itself) is a major theme in the 1978 book The Turner Diaries by William Luther Pierce, founder of the National Alliance, a white nationalist organization. The term came to the attention of a larger audience in a 27 December 1984 article in The New York Times about robberies committed in California and Washington by a white supremacist group called The Order. According to the Times, the crimes "were conducted to raise money for a war upon the United States Government, which the group calls 'ZOG', or Zionist Occupation Government."
So even if America has a government full of zionists, it has always been a dog whistle for American neo nazis, and American neo nazis accuse everything they don't like of being jewish, even stuff that isn't jewish, like Communism, Socialism, the international labor movement, anti-imperialism, etc.
Make sense?
>>2260465>This is true but ignores the first part of the story. Yeah I forgot where Dishonest Abe was originally supposed to be from but either way, not levant.
>Abraham is first given the land due to the covenant with God, and only after repeated exiles to Egypt do they come back and conquer the inhabitants. Abraham also fought some people for the land.
>It's all bullshit mythology that might loosely be based on real migrations (there was a common phenomenon of seasonal migrant laborers moving back and forth between the levant and Egypt all through the bronze and iron age) but yeah it's somehow even more clusterfucked of a narrative than what you described.Even the Jews admit that Abraham and Moses are mythological characters with no historical evidence, I forget who they claim the first real person in the book is.
Yeah it is all madness that these tall tales are used for the basis for anything in 2025. It's like if the Greeks claimed modern Troy because of The Odysee.
>>2261383Not that anon, but see the previous post here
>>2260030. It's not irrelevant if it's how the world you live in defines and uses it lol.
>>2259148>Americans are to weird about Jews, anti-Semitism is as valid a belief as any anti-theist belief. Not the racialist stuff but any hierarchal organization with limit to no oversight is going to be doing bad stuff. Religions are inherently structured that way. It's not atheism or dislike of religion that marks anti-Semitism, in my view.
It's more like an attempt to explain "the world" through a grand conspiracy, and trying to cope with anxiety and existential dread veering into an irrational psychosis. You see it on the far right a lot, where something they don't like happens, they look for the Jew who is behind it. It doesn't matter what it is. Economic recessions. Homosexuality. Drag queens. Communism. Liberalism. Leftism. Wars. Immigrants. COVID-19. It's a Manichean universe that is strictly black and white. Good vs. evil. One problem is that the world is not actually Manichean and this doesn't reflect reality.
It's not about the specific things, but the Jew as a symbolic representative of all the evil. It's the underlying (irrational) pattern of "thought" that you have to look at.
–
People seek explanations for things but humans are flawed and don't think rationally. Here's an example.
Diamond prospectors exploring a remote part of the Amazon rainforest in the 1960s discover an uncontacted tribe. While a little testy at first, the prospectors and natives become friendly with each other because the prospectors don't want to get shot with bows and arrows, and the natives are attracted to the prospectors' metal tools (which they happily take assuming it's a gift but the prospectors don't complain because they'd rather be on good terms with them). A day later, one of the natives starts coughing. Then more start coughing. Then they start dying.
In reality, they've contracted a flu they've never encountered before. They don't have a germ theory, so they don't know what's really happening to them beyond their immediate sensory experience (what they can see, feel, smell, etc.). Some suspect the prospectors poisoned them. Others think the land they're on (as a semi-nomadic people who move villages every few years) is cursed, and as they debate this, they take a vote and agree to flee the area. That spreads the flu to other uncontacted native villages. Within a few years, 75% of their community and the surrounding communities is dead.
Anti-Semitism – and I mean real anti-Semitism and not simple prejudice – is a lot like that. It results from some collective anxiety or trauma. "The Jews poisoned the well."
>>2261446Well the flag can be a trap because it can catch people out like that. But in debate, the point is to influence the people watching rather than convince the other person they're wrong or whatever. From what I remember, I wasn't blaming Chechnya "for having a Kadyrov" but was trying to make a more structural and materialist argument involving the collapse of the USSR and the disintegration of social infrastructure holding the country together, or trying to, at least that's what I thought was the main difference.
I'd add BTW that I don't think anti-Semitism is actually good for people who adopt it as an overarching worldview. It's emotionally satisfying but look at what happened to Germany when a really extreme and anti-Semitic regime took power there, it destroyed the country. But the society was in crisis and I think projecting all of the Bad onto the Jew can serve as catharsis, and it can also be a way of avoiding the problems, which ends up making the problems even worse.
Anti-Semites are huge moralfags too. I think it's tied in with ressentiment and reactive attitude that desperately needs someone to "blame" rather than taking responsibility. That includes collective responsibility. Recall how Marxists have argued a lot about how moral categories can obfuscate what is actually going on.
>>2261509zionist-occupied government does not exist
American-Occupied Governments however, is prevalent around the world
>>2261509oh, so
now we can lump in the 10% with the 90%?
good to know! :^)
>>2261665right, except zionists in government are a real thing unlike judeo-bolshevism
it's the same thing as going
>y-you sound like a holocaust denier!!!!at someone debunking made up hoholdomor claims, you can tone police all you want but you'll never get me on the facts of the matter
>>2261405the goal is to change the world
-Karl Marx
>>2261734okay
we shall call it ZOIG Zionist Occupied Imperialist Government, happy?
>>2261858LOL
you made the case for ZOG even stronger, the Irish support Palestine and Israel withdrew their ambassador from Ireland. The Irish AMerican community has pro-Palestine groups march in their St. Patrick's day parade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32E3DiPIX5Q 45:15 timestamp
>>2261679>right, except zionists in government are a real thing unlike judeo-bolshevismZOG is not the same as saying that there is Zionist influence, just like Judeo-Bolshevism isn't the same as saying there were Jews who supported the Bolsheviks.
>it's the same thing as going>y-you sound like a holocaust denier!!!!No, it's explaining the context of the term.
>at someone debunking made up hoholdomor claims, you can tone police all you want but you'll never get me on the facts of the matterYou are incredibly dishonest. This isn't equivalent to being told you sound like Holocaust denier because you deny the holodomor was a genocide, it's the equivalent to you going up to someone and saying that you deny the Holocaust, then acting surprised when people group you in with Holocaust deniers despite that not being what you mean. ZOG has historical context to it, and your autistic refusal to recognize that is absurd in the face of people trying to explain that context in good faith. This is on the level of trying to use the term "race realism" with people because you think people are "genetically different", when that's not what "race realism" denotes.
>>2262077I'm not stopping you from saying ZOG. I'm just telling you the history of the term, when it started being used first, and by who. If this offends you maybe you're just sensitive
>tone policingdid I get out my tone handcuffs and beat you with my tone night stick and then shoot you with my tone pistol?
>splitting>attacking"waaaaaaaah i'm being oppressed because you said ZOG has a history of being used by burger neo nazis, this is LITERALLY VIOLENCE. now communism will NEVER WIN." get a grip kid
>>2261731>>2261739there was a famine though, one that was largely the result of soviet policies
doesn't mean the (expatriate) ukranian nationalist narrative of a "targeted genocide as punishment for nationalism" is true
>>2263469Anyone else can read the conversation and see what's happening.
I haven't defended zionism once. I say unequivocally death to zionism and all forms of nationalism which brainwashes the working class.
I haven't defended Judaism once. I say unequivocally death to Judaism and all forms of religion, which brainwashes the working class
But I also say "here is the history of the term ZOG: American neo nazis were the first to use it in the 1970s"
and you cry "NOOOOOOO YOU ARE OPPRESSING ME AND TONE POLICING ME YOU MUST BE A SECRET JEW"
everyone can see how ridiculous this is. death to zionism because death to nationalism. death to judaism because death to religion. workers of the world unite.
Your response? Nothing intelligent thus far.
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