many people are rightly coming to the conclusion that you fundamentally cannot fix this. the idea of marxist socialism is just a more efficient capitalism; one without "contradictions", where the rape of the earth and its people will serve an abstract "mankind", even as it is conceptually abolished. we're all being taken on a ride to the extinction of the species, and you are either for it, or against it. this is pure theology - good vs evil. which side are you on?
>>2257389>the idea of marxist socialism is just a more efficient capitalismno, sorry. try again.
>abstract "mankind"no, mankind is a pretty clear and material concept
>this is pure theology - good vs evil.so much is true. narodism seems to still live in despair ridden petty bourgeois anarchoid intellectuals
>>2257539>capitalism which has resolved its contradictionsthis makes no sense because capitalism can't exist without contradictions. resolving contradictions is dismantling and replacing capitalist production with something else. you're sooo stupid
>preservation of the capitalist form of valuebro 'value' has sense only in an economy which alienates labor. how do you measure 'value' in a use-oriented economy? you can't measure all use with the same unit of 'value', but you can when there are
wages.
>without capital accumulation itselfjust throwing words around irresponsibly
>>2257539>>2257543no i very well know about abstractions but here it's not used a scientific but moral abstraction (serve an abstract "mankind" - you can't serve scientific abstract categories, but you can serve moral ones etc.)
>>2257560>this makes no sense because capitalism can't exist without contradictionsneither can socialism, yet you types tend to neglect this fact
>resolving contradictions is dismantling and replacing capitalist production with something else.with what? what is qualitatively different about working in a factory for 40 years, then you die - but under a red banner?
>bro 'value' has sense only in an economy which alienates laboryes, and marx says that in the early stage of communism, labour will be inherently alienated by an inequality of labour powers
>how do you measure 'value' in a use-oriented economy?how do you decide who gets what, and how much?
>wageswhat does an industrial economy without wages look like?
>abstractionswhat is the "material" concept of mankind?
>>2257592right, so you admit that to be a modernist is to be a nihilist - you forget however, that stalin sent many to the gulag, but never himself. same for mao in the cultural revolution. the universal death cult only goes so far, and like all systems, it protects power.
>>2257616>yet you types tend to neglect this factjust making shit up i didn't say. dumb dumb, capitalism without capitalist contradictions cannot exist. it's a contradiction in adjecto.
>what is qualitatively different about working in a factory for 40 years, then you die - but under a red banner?strawmanning what scientific socialism is an pretending like industrial production isn't a prerequisite for socialism (the fact that the soviets and chinese industrialized on western practices is a issue of history and not ideas). again, these were TO BE COLONIZED by western imperialists. this is black on white written in mein kampf. without industry, how do you deal with imperialists? who's gonna teach you industrial production and organization if not bourgeois intellectuals?? like???
>marx says that in the early stage of communismok and? so you agree than in the transitional period of proletrian dictatorship there are remnants of capitalist organization? no one is saying otherwise
>how do you >what doesidk we didn't get there yet and we're not in a position to think about this. but cockshott has some ideas
>what is the "material" concept of mankind?people, people are the material mankind, you retarded ass
>>2257628>socialism depends on industryexcept when it has existed as a natural community between human beings for all of history. this is why i say that you marxists would rather force capitalism on the world than dismantle it, because you imagine that one day, your hand will tame the beast.
>who's gonna teach you industrial productionwho's going to enslave us to machines, you mean?
>so you agree than in the transitional period of proletrian dictatorship…no, you dont understand. communism as you imagine it will never exist, because history begins by a negation of an original primitive communism.
>cockshott has some ideasi wouldnt trust him near a child, nevermind near the seat of power.
>people are the material mankindyoure saying absolutely nothing
>>2257640>existed as a naturalholy shit i want to strangle you i want to strap you down and shove the entire two parts of the german ideology i own down your slimy liberal throat to force feed you some basic materialist thinking you disgusting idealist ecoanarcho rat
>enslave us to machinesLIBERATION IS A HISTORICAL AND NOT A MENTAL ACT YOU RETARD YOU CANNOT IMAGINE ACTUAL PRACTICAL FREEDOM WITHOUT THE SPINNING JENNY
>communism as you imagine it will never existyou should have opened up with this you anti-communist vermin. kill yourself NOW
>youre saying absolutely nothingyeah you have to take your head out of the ideal ass to make sense of practical and tangible concepts.
stop replying.
>>2257646>basic materialist thinking"basic materialist thinking" is apparently denying human goodness and instead preferring dictators to rule your life. youre only proving my point.
>freedom is only possible after war and slaveryare you a fascist by any chance? you are coping like religious people; "things are bad now, but its all just a test, because one day, we'll be in power". absolutely pathetic apologia for the crimes of history.
>anti-communist verminright, its acceptable to dehumanise people you disagree with. you really are a fascist. but see how i already knew that? the industrial mind is sick.
>>2257653is being mature being apathetic about the state of the world?
>>2257645i guess the jokes on us, who have no more pollution…
>>2257670what is your point, literally?
that there is no human goodness?
that there are no crimes of history?
that industry isnt destructive?
>>2257675so you have no actual thoughts? just dogma?
you are a religious fanatic, then.
>>2257691all thats happened is that ive been accused of something without explanation - and now you swoop in for the other anon who realised he's full of shit, by continuing to be full of shit. why?
>asking for sources and explanationsthis is only a bad thing for people who talk out of their ass, like you.
>>2257702>you have been told thingsno, i have been accused of things
>you are demanding that people completely break those things downi asked for a simple explanation
>You should be perfectly capable of interpreting what is being saidhow do i interpret the accusation that im discussing quantum physics without knowing newtonian mechanics, in relation to defending the concept of human goodness? it was a nonsensical accusation, thats why he couldnt explain it. why are you simping for this anon so hard? samefagging?
>>2258621I love bringing this up because it's such an effective filter for retards like you. I appreciate that you had your infographic-tier cliche quips ready, but unfortunately they're irrelevant
What I said isn't a defense of capitalism, it's a defense of industrialization. In order for earth life to survive, we must:
<Accrete industrial capacity<Direct that industrial capacity intelligently >>2257389mods should make an /ecofash/ board for posts like this, they'll make a board about anything as long as they don't have to mod it.
oh and just to be perfectly clear, marxism is pro-rape, we just fucking LOVE rape, just
RAPE the earth!!!
>>2258570>well-beingdoes more of the same misery lead to happiness? we can see how slaves may end up enjoying their captivity, like people using treadmills recreationally. does this make them free, in their ignorance?
>life has an expiration dateand industrial enterprise doesnt? this whole thing is unsustainable. we're not going to mars, bro.
>>2258574>demoralisation thread<stop telling people that theyre in hell, brovery "marxist" of you
>doesnt know what capitalism isthe slavery of the planet to profits
>marxist socialismthe slavery of the planet to an abstract humanity; the sublime anthropocene, which simultaneously abolishes humanity.
>>2264307you cant reason with devil worshippers
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