Are there any communist or general leftist movements that would accept someone who fully supports the workers expropriating the means of production, but still has chudish views on gender and race? Basically I think anything related to transgender stuff is a meme, and I think there are genuine differences in intelligence and rates of violence between races caused by genetics, but I also support the working class seizing the means of production from the bourgeoisie. Is it possible to reconcile Marxist economic views with being a chud on social issues?
>>2260816>Basically I think anything related to transgender stuff is a meme, and I think there are genuine differences in intelligence and rates of violence between races caused by geneticsOnly socialism you’re going to find is your body in a communally run grave yard.
Fuck off.
>>2260816>Is it possible to reconcile Marxist economic views with being a chud on social issues?I don't give a shit frankly and believe you need to think for yourself.
I'll just say that Marxism argues that base (economics) determines superstructure (law, politics, family structure, ideology, etc.), so a fundamental change in the economy will eventually reshape everything else. A revolution in the economic base is expected to bring about revolutionary changes in all other areas of society. What you or I as individuals think about the changes, or our personal preferences, doesn't really matter because it's happening on huge scale. It's entire countries and it's also global.
Take gender roles in pre-revolutionary China. The society was deeply patariarchal. Women were considered subordinate to men and expected to obey the "three obediences" (to their father before marriage, husband after marriage, and son in widowhood). Arranged marriages were the norm (brides were bought and sold). Love or personal choice played little role in it. Women had virtually no rights, and getting an education was rare. I think the main reason things were like this is because China had been a primitive agricultural society for thousands of years.
Then the economy began changing really rapidly. The late Qing and then the Republican government (before the communists) were building railroads, bringing in foreign investment, and major cities (Shanghai, Guangzhou, Beijing, Wuhan, etc.) exploded in population. But a lot of this investment benefited a tiny elite and foreigners who exploited China's huge labor force, including many women now working in factories, yet a lot of these traditional, pre-revolutionary patriarchal values still dominated. That was a contradiction eventually played a part in the Cultural Revolution which was a pretty radical attack on China's traditional values that many Chinese revolutionaries deemed as holding the country back.
But back up a second and think about what I said about the base and superstructure. It was the change in the economic base first that produced this "explosive" change in the superstructure. And it happened very fast there, compressed in a much shorter timeframe than a similar process that occurred in Western countries.
>>2261064>western capitalistneed i remind you of the gdr? the DPRK obviously has different cultural dynamics than the typical imperial core state, yet as a western leftist you should be aware that "chuddish" views on gender are ressentiments serving to divide the working class and enforce patriarchy, despite being able to coexist with lower-stage socialism. ultimately we can't even tell what the real conditions look like, remember that video by someone who actually was gay in gaza?
>>2261096>glowzek crying about muh not real issuestypical wrecker behavior
>>2261065You're welcome
I made a typo, but I assume you figured it out yourself. :)
>>2261009majority of third world people are "conservative" and majority of communists are in the third world.
i don't think its a desirable thing but its what it is
What's stopping from people organizing into relatively homogeneous communes based on ethnicity? That way there would be no animosity stemming from genetic propensity for different abilities and behaviors.
Well, I guess I know the answer, the communes that underperform will cry about MUH RACISM and demand handouts, the same way they do in our capitalist society.
Like, you people are so far in denial about the realities of ethnicity. Even if you want to pretend that there are no genetic influences on behavior, intelligence, or decision making, the simple fact that glaringly obvious physical differences, i.e. that some ethnicities are clearly larger and/or stronger and/or faster and/or require less food, is sufficient on its own to prove that different ethnicities are going to naturally have different abilities and therefore produce unequal outcomes in ANY common system.
No form of marxism/socialism/communism will ever be achieved so long as the politically dominant marxoids cling to their religious belief in tabula rasa. Its what makes class reductionism excessively reductive; genes have both direct and indirect influences on needs, abilities, values, desires, et cetera. 20-40% of the human genome is involved in the structure and/or function of the brain, you do the math. The unfortunate truth is that some socioethnic groups will ALWAYS be lumpenproles when forced to live with other groups under the same set of rules.
Sorry marxbros, ethnic heirarchy (implicit or explicit) is inevitable in any organized and functioning multiethnic civilization. The sooner you accept this undeniable fact, the sooner you can get closer to an actual functioning marxist movement.
>>2261338did you have an argument or..?
>>2261346Yeah, imagine wanting to understand reality as it is, and the bounds it places on what sort of political ideologies are actually possible. What a weirdo amirite? Better to be in a safe and intellectually non-threatening denial like all the other "normal" people.
Blank slatist beliefs are a result neoliberal indoctrination. I hope you "marxists" realize that in clinging to biological denialism so religiously, you are helping to perpetuate modern neoliberal capitalism and undermining your own cause.
>>2261380Agreed.
But this and this take the cake. I fear the chud's metal state. Although my Stasi Grandpa did use zersetsung and thought it was fucking funny.
Also:
>the cultural revolution destroyed chinese artefacts, oral tradition, temples etc. completly fucked the country up. japan is western-capitalist, conservative, still has housewifes, architecture is a nice blende between ancient and modern, shintoism still strong, monarchy still in place and strong borders. japan is better than chinalol, salty buddhist
>>2261375>And as for gender stuff, I feel like I have most Marxists throughout world history on my side when I say I simply don't buy it, what would Marx or Engels even say about such things?Engels wrote a book about it called "The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State." The basic argument is that family structures and gender roles are organized around economic systems. Patriarchy really came about with the rise of agriculture and private property (in things like land and livestock), so the family becamce like a microcosm of the society as men sought to pass property down through their male biological descendents.
He also extrapolated ideas about gender and family structures in communism and that basically there would no longer be monogamous, patriarchial families because there would no longer be private property and thus no inheritance of it. Women would enter the workforce on an equal footing with men, and marriage would be based on mutual affection and not economic necessity or social coercion, but all of this was speculative. All he was certain in saying is that things like the patriarchal family and gender oppression would be abolished and wasn't certain what would replace it because the new social conditions hadn't emerged yet.
>>2261395>still not an argumentWhat a convenient cop-out
>>2261373Well, the fact that our measurements are imperfect (thanks in no small part to the dogmatic, society-wide race-denialist orthodoxy of the last 60+ years) does not imply that meaningful ethnic differences do not exist and influence multicultural social relations (and international relations when nations are relatively homogeneous). I imagine you would agree that susceptibility to various diseases is strongly correlated with genes, as are purely physical attributes that make some groups better soldiers, or better farmers (at least when physical labor is necessary), better athletes, etc. How could anyone seriously argue that these ethnic differences are limited to physical traits when the structure and function of the brain is also ultimately encoded in heritable DNA?
If animals of different breeds (and obviously species) have different instincts and behaviors in similar situations, why are humans magically immune to these same evolutionary pressures? Did the human brain stop evolving the moment the first "anatomically modern" human stepped foot out of africa? That's before you even consider the geographically heterogeneous interbreeding between homo sapiens and dozens of other known and unknown homonid species…
>>2261411And what's the word for someone naive enough to believe that the realities of the material world do not place constraints on civilization? Isn't marxism all about materialist analysis anyway? How can a materialist analysis be valid if it denies the material reality of the influence of genetics on the human condition?
>>2261407This is vulgar materialism, the basis of transgenderism has nothing to do with the capitalist medical-industrial complex. Do transgender people use medicine and procedures which are provided by the medical industry in capitalism? Yes, but this applies to everyone. This doesn't translate to self-identification with another gender, or the ideas behind the deveopment of "trans" as a descriptor, which existed before transgender recognition.
>>2261412Go back to your dead mod club lol.
>>2261430>Well, the fact that our measurements are imperfect (thanks in no small part to the dogmatic, society-wide race-denialist orthodoxy of the last 60+ years)Race is itself an "imperfect measurement", "race denialist orthodoxy" has nothing to do with "race" being an inherently flawed socially constructed categorization. The study of genetic ancestry has done fine and made leaps and bounds without the use of "race".
>does not imply that meaningful ethnic differences do not exist and influence multicultural social relations (and international relations when nations are relatively homogeneous).They largely do not in a genetic context.
>I imagine you would agree that susceptibility to various diseases is strongly correlated with genes, No one on the study of genetic ancestry denies this, this point is always brought up as a "gotcha" to try and slide in other unsupported presumptions about human genetics.
>as are purely physical attributes that make some groups better soldiers, or better farmers (at least when physical labor is necessary), better athletes, etc.Applying the "division of labour" to ethnic groups isn't "science" lol. Humans, by and large, are defined by how broadly adaptable they are, not in their specialization in socially defined roles. Our division of the labour we engage in is largely a modern on as well, people in the past would be all of those things.
>How could anyone seriously argue that these ethnic differences are limited to physical traits when the structure and function of the brain is also ultimately encoded in heritable DNA?There is a broad spectrum of physical traits in a studied genetic grouping, at least in the context of what you are talking about about. The structure of the brain is itself highly complex, and to say that such a structure is solely shaped by genetic grouping is not a very verifiable one.
>If animals of different breeds (and obviously species) have different instincts and behaviors in similar situations,Humans diversity due to genetic bottlenecks is very much not equivalent to either species or breeds.
>why are humans magically immune to these same evolutionary pressures?Bottlenecks largely, and that the evolutionary pressures applied to different human genetic groupings have been relatively subtle.
>Did the human brain stop evolving the moment the first "anatomically modern" human stepped foot out of africa?From studying early humans, we can actually say that humans in terms of "intellectual capacity" have changed very little, if at all. That's a wild thing to think about, but early humans weren't thinking and creatively drawing conclusions in any wildly different ways then we would in their situation.
>That's before you even consider the geographically heterogeneous interbreeding between homo sapiens and dozens of other known and unknown homonid species.The differences between us and the other hominid species we interacted with is vastly overstated. Neanderthals, for example, were a lot closer to us socially and intellectually then early science and anthropology thought.
When you get the time, see if you can sit in at a local college for a genetics class (many will let you do so for free if you live in the area), or talk to a student (I have the benefit of having family in the field).
Anyone who cares about idpol issues enough that they're willing to bring them up in the same context as being a communist is a bad communist, full stop. I've dealt with more than enough of you people to know that, when push comes to shove, you will always prioritize your own retarded extra adjectives over being a communist. I don't give a singular petrified what you think about blacks or gays. I want to create a world where everyone is housed, fed, and educated and employed. If that isn't your top priority, neck yourself before I do it for you.
>>2260949>>2261024Cuba, vietnam, and Laos all disagree with you, and China and NK, while not traditionally "liberal", approach these issues in a way that has nothing to do with Western conservatism.
In order to understand the world, you need to get out of America's hypnotic aura. The US has its tendrils everywhere that isn't an AES state, to the point where it's inflicted braindamage even in most of the Third World, so try to keep your news consumption as limited to stuff operating out of AES states as possible.
>>2261061>>2261065>>2261175Oh No No No!
>>2261430>And what's the word for someone naive enough to believe that the realities of the material world do not place constraints on civilization?Materialism isn’t the same as biological determinism. Marxist materialism is historical and dialectical, not mechanical or reductionist. It examines social relations, labor, class struggle, and the mode of production as the real forces shaping civilization—not race or inherited genes.
>Isn't Marxism all about materialist analysis anyway?”Yes—but Marxist materialism is not about boiling human behavior down to DNA. It’s about how humans transform nature and themselves through labor. Human consciousness, institutions, and capacities are shaped by productive activity—not by immutable genes. Otherwise, there’d be no history, only repetition.
>How can a materialist analysis be valid if it denies the material reality of the influence of genetics on the human condition?Because genetics are not the primary driver of social development. That’s what bourgeois ideology promotes to naturalize class inequality. Marxism explains how humans make themselves through class struggle, collective labor, and changing material conditions. Your framework is vulgar materialism—a one-sided view that isolates biology and ignores the dialectical dynamics of social development.
>>2261712
>Anyone who cares about idpol issues enough that they're willing to bring them up in the same context as being a communist is a bad communist, full stop. I've dealt with more than enough of you people to know that, when push comes to shove, you will always prioritize your own retarded extra adjectives over being a communist.This is key. Idpol obsessives, no matter which side they chose, are a liability.
The pendulum tends to seing a bit back and forth between lib idpol and con idpol in terms of which is more dominant, but it is always corrosive garbage.
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UNDER SOCIALISM, YOUR IDENTITY IS BULLDOZED, TO MAKE WAY FOR GLORIOUS TRACTOR FACTORY!
>>2261712>Anyone who cares about idpol issues enough that they're willing to bring them up in the same context as being a communist is a bad communist, full stop. I've dealt with more than enough of you people to know that, when push comes to shove, you will always prioritize your own retarded extra adjectives over being a communist. I don't give a singular petrified what you think about blacks or gays. I want to create a world where everyone is housed, fed, and educated and employed. If that isn't your top priority, neck yourself before I do it for youClarify this, because if you think communism is when you refuse to discuss social issues and relate then to the larger system of capitalism, then implore you to read to any communist of the last century. Also, communism isn't when "house, food, education, job", we aren't milk toast socdems.
>>2261388Lmfao, this is almost adorable. These people think they're so cool because they read leftypol shitposts and think they're performing intelligence gathering for the culture war. What a bunch of goofy autists. The schizobabble is the cherry on top.
>>2261064Funny that this poster had to go to Korea and not their far more sizable and successful neighbor that is generally socially progressive and trans-humanist.
>>2260850>a movement that accepts privately held chuddy viewsif you keep them to yourself how does the movement accept them?
>>2260856>differences between human races, it would be weird if there wasn't considering how universal evolution and natural selection arethis isn't the same as
>>2260816>in intelligence and rates of violence between races caused by geneticsthis which is a pretty hard no at least for any type of marxist communist if you think those differences are something meaningful enough to care about. its also unscientific. intelligence and rates of violence are effected by environment as much as genetics and for the most part the differences in similar environments are negligible. for you to bring it up you must think its more than a 1-5% variance meaning something like you think the average person of one race is more than 99% prone to the same amount of violence with outliers being more than 95% or something like that. unless you are talking about how things are while accounting for environment and not talking about determinant capacity exclusively related to genetics.
>capitalist medical-industrial psyop.do you mean consciously? because from some perspectives that might be true but not consciously and its more of an emergent property of social production. capitalism needs machines and division of labor that erases the meaning of biological differences with respect to its ability to generate profit for capitalists, but thats not something that will go away with communism, it will only intensify as technology makes those differences ever more meaningless, as marx says 'all that is solid melts into air'. its not that these are some kind of aberration to the natural being of what is human but that humanities increasing ability to manipulate its environment has a recursive effect on its capacity and what it means to be human. from a certain perspective this gives us more freedom to be what we really are without constraints, what is left behind was not really essential but historically transient
>>2261308>But I also don't think human biology and psychology are a tabula rasa where inherited genetics means absolutely nothingits a flip flop again. communists dont believe that either. there is a dialectical relationship between genetics and environment something like where genes determine a min-max and environment determines where on that scale you fall. you have have 200 i q genes and wont actually get that if you start drinking at 5 yo. differences between individuals of the same race are larger then differences in averages between races which are almost entirely due to poverty/capitalism, again assuming capacity and not how-things-are it would indeed be stupid to say there is no difference between people who grow up with indoor plumbing and electricity and people who grow up malnourished in a war zone.
>>2261430>are purely physical attributes that make some groups better soldiers, or better farmers (at least when physical labor is necessary), better athletesyou know historical avg heights for the same race fluctuate massively with agricultural revolutions? yes a country that has food abundance for ten generations will have better warriors that is not genetics.
>breedsaren't races unless you think the habsburgs are a race?
>>2260816What stops you from just attending the labor related things? It's not a social club. Like if you have an org that conditions unionizing, for example, on attending events in support of LGBT issues then you just have a shit organization which is hostage to the culture war. It's not a matter of your taste or anybody's.
If, on the other hand, the problem is that you are so butt-hurt about this other stuff that you cannot possibly tolerate being around it… then clearly the problem is you putting those same things you decry as irrelevant over class struggle, not the org.
>>2265140 (me)
That said, you are naive if you think any sort of socialist success will reward your opinions on race. Hopefully, participating in an organization would develop your curiosity to separate the chaff from the wheat around social issues. Because while I doubt anything "woke" can do much better than courting liberals, your racism is still purge worthy.
>>2264971>because if you think communism is when you refuse to discuss social issues and relate then to the larger system of capitalismThere's a very big difference between that and "I'm an anti-woke communist" Twitter profile adjective stew.
My end goal is to achieve a world where everyone's basic needs are met and the will of the people represented, and communism is the political manifestation of those goals. That's the end of it. I'm more than willing to work with people who have vastly different opinions on race, religion, and sexuality than I do if it means making progress on the important part. The problem with people like you is that you can never put the extra shit aside and focus on what actually matters. You get sidetracked by your hatred of blacks and transhumanists, and end up making that what defines you, rather than what actually matters.
>milk toastLmao
>>2265030The difference is that Lenin and Stalin didn't build their entire politcal existence around identity politics. To the extent that they did, it should be viewed as flaws, not virtues.
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