/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2262528
WHAT FASCISM IS NOT: Some metaphysical standing point on reality when you are the motherfucker that identifies himself by negating the other, scapegoating some minority or neighboring nation or some shit. Why? because if this is so, fascism is the most successful political ideology ever, being held from the dawn of time. Also, liberalism would be fascism, fascism would be so many things it would just become some circlejerk form of talking shit to one another, like "motherfucker" or "piece of shit".

What IS fascism: the political movement that took power in the axis states in the aftermath of ww1, alongside the copycats and puppet states that couldn't do it by themselves, in that specific time under those specific conditions, with specific economic and geopolitical strategies that answered specific problems at that time in that specific way… etc; and that lost in world war 2 aside from some pockets of pseudofascistic entities which were never fully fascist, like Spain Portugal and Greece (entities which gradually became only ceremonially "pseudo-fascistic" while at the same time working virtually the same as any other similar country) and which has since then only survived in some fringe small groups that have no political influence whatsoever.

Most of what people call fascist, like Meloni, Trump, the german ones, you name it, are just neoliberals with a xenophobic, reactionary, extremeley conservative or otherwise old-ass discourse in social and cultural matters. Some fags that use the term fascist left or right if dropped in any 18th century state would die from a scandal-driven heart attack or seizure: the whole god damn world is fascist! fascism has won! *dies*. Picrel was not much economically liberal, but that and the fact he was an anticommunist doesn't mean he was a fascist: he was just some interventionist, anti-communist, authoritharian autocrat in control of a state with his political friends (nobody holds power alone) and pivoting on daddy usa. Fascism is not even a marxist proper category, just another dumb ass ideological configuration of a bourgeois state with an ancien regime flavour to fit into ancient regime countries, and some other historically dependent funny unique characteristics. Give same techonology to an 18th century state and shit might have gone just as bad as holocaust, and shit has got that bad since without the need for fascism. It is more of a liberal term, more concerd with civil liberties and such, just as totalitariansim and other politically socioeconomically braindead terms. Also historically brainded might I add

It's time for the left to drop this god damned terminology stuck in ww2, communism is in dire need of new categories, some really new outlook because this is getting so tiresome, the same arguments for the past 80 fucking years…

>>2264898
Your 'why this cannot be the case' doesn't make logical sense. It being the most successful ideology as a conditional wouldn't render the matter altogether inconceivable, it would just mean you've lost by contrast.

Fascism is the highest stage of workers movement supression

>>2264903
Yes, because it is assumed that fascist germany, italy and japan are the especially fascist entities, which have a definite set of characteristics accountable on the conditions that were there when they rose. But the use of fascism that I'm critizing applies the label to almost every political entity ever (funny enough, only exceptions would be some liberal parlimentary democracies and some "heterotopies" that anarkieddies, which are criptoliberals, always shill about). Therefore, there is an inconsistency in referring to both things at the same time: fascism in the general sense make so that germany, italy and japan were not especially fascist, they would only be special inasmuch as industry at that time made them make a lot more noise than hitherto possible. Making so that both Stalin and Trump, or Videla and Franco, Pinochet and Netanyahu (in my opinion the best candidate for the label but still not strictly applicable) are fascists, turn fascism into a meaningless term that actually does not especially refer to anything worth compiling into a single term, both for practical and theoretical ends. And on the other hands if we focus on the very special conditions which germany, italy and japan partook in, then we are no longer able to generalize the term. Not even Netanyahu's Israel would be fasicst, a guy that is in my opionion the current best candidate because of his ethno bullshit, but mass killing and political-economic interests manifested as ethnic conflict has been there from antiquity, so, not fascism.

>>2262961
This is what happens when you use "fascist" outside the specific historical context that run through the 1920s until the end of ww2: abstract and liberal-values-oriented conflations of the most braindead kind.

>>2262528
I'm gonna put it plain and simple: fascism was just the ideological flavour that filled the protectionist, interventionist, cucked-syndicalist, industrialist, militarist, you name it, state policies niche available at that time due to 1. great depression, hence "state capitalism" and all that jam everywhere in all geopolitical blocks (liberal, fascist, communist) 2. fresh military industry advancement like never before 3. axis powers lost, this and point 2 explains militarist expansionist shit 4. colonialism situation, also explains warmongering. So, due to this conditions, in some countries that had either lost in ww1 or ideologically struggled to adapt to modernity due to a too fresh ancien regime past, which also includes ww1 loosers (hence the social organic discourse of the state and the apparent hostility towards civil society), rose an ideology that filled that specific general niche in those specific particular countries with that were in that situation. The rest was just aesthetic flavour, inspired in rome, in this or that… not politically relevant (the politically relevant terms are only class and empire, and nothing else, everything else is just flavour, an accident ignorantly considered to part of the substance). Holocaust does not make them special either, due to the fact that many events that have since then happened show that genocidal tendencies are not exclusive to them. Their genocidal way is sometimes considered special due to its technicality, but that says nothing to me, they were trying out the new systematizing tools that modernity offered them, nothing special about that. The special thing about that would be industrialization, science etc. which provide the capability to both fascist and non-fascist states to act in that sort of way, some things that were happening in some states decided to just fill that niche, and? congratulations. Some ancient state would have loved such tools instead of passing old people, women and children through the knife en masse, which is the same shit but slower and less efficient.

So, let's call a spade a spade, let's not refer to capitalism's ideological "cherry flavor" as "strawberry flavour" just because it's colored red, let's not call dirt and shit both shit just because they are both brown… Let's not call some stupid economically center-right neoliberal faggot party a fascist party just because in it's media electoral discourse it choose to play the old scapegoat card or just because it has some imperial ambitions, or just because they do some unconstitutional or unlawful shit (we should do that too as communists), or just because they have a populist weird guy as the frontman… Don't make me laugh, such sensibiloid liberal discourse all the time with this fascist shit, it is not even practically relevant as a category and has not been since the end of ww2.

The mistake lies on focusing on the entities and extracting from them some stupid eternal quality applicable indiscriminately everywhere regardless of history, economy, class state empire, you name it. One most focus on the conditions, the rest are just filling out niches provided and the actual movement, call it force call it contingency call it how you want, that then actually goes and fills in those niches, because they are the things that work and other dont. Lesson: stop focusing on this supposed entity called fasicsm, focus on the conditions.

>>2264957
Also, somebody explain why are the items grouped under the generalist conception of the "fascist" are EXACTLY those political configurations that are too salty for the delicate taste of liberal values to digest? Is this a mere coincidence? Does this mean that liberal are sensible to detecting items that fall under fascism? Should we have a little liberal pet as a fascist-detector?

Yes, some liberals call putin a fascist while not calling israel fascist, but this is not because they use the term differently, but because due to propaganda they believe the term to be applicable to x and not to y, while for leftists users of the term is the opposite. They see putin as violating ukrain's rights and freedom, and in turn leftists users see israel as violating the rights of palestine and etc.

>>2262906
>I'm pointing out that monopolistic capital was a thing before "fascism" appeared. According to Lenin, in Imperialism.
Yes imperialism is a pre-requisite for fascism.
>>2264273
>When you expand "America" past "America" fascism becomes a more reasonable
As an internationalist should.
>>2262528
>But is this really a meaningful difference to liberalism?
Good question, ultimately I think the answer is basically no, but its more that liberalism is the ideological competent of capitalism as a system, and imperialism being the highest stage of its logical development, so more important is whether there is a difference between fascism and imperialism. One definition of fascism is that it is imperialism turned inward, and Lenin says that imperialism is capitalism in decay. He says this because initially compared to feudalism, capitalism is a progressive force because it increases the means of production and gives a society more capacity for freedom, but this has a limit found inherent in capitalism itself. Market competition leads to consolidation of productive forces into monopoly and when technological innovation becomes saturated the rate of profit falls due to the increase in the organic composition of capital and resulting falling rate of profit it ceases to be progressive and instead comes to live off rent from existing infrastructure which provokes a crisis of overproduction as workers become unable to afford what they produce. This leads the monopoly capitalists to expand into markets outside the legal territory of their nation which in turn results in war that redivides territories and you have imperialism. Nobody called the British, Dutch, or Belgian imperialism fascist, but as soon as Germany started doing it in Europe they made a new term. And this is the key difference between fascism and liberalism, Germany's imperial colonialism didn't work, they were shut out by rival imperialists. This forced the German monopoly capitalists to the last resort turning inward to the final and ultimate source of profit, labor, implementing brutal austerity to increase profits at home. Which is the next key part of fascism, as a reaction to a failed socialist revolution due to underdeveloped class consciousness and lack of organization. If the workers simply accept the austerity then you have neoliberalism. It is only when they fight back and lose that you get fascism, which by eliminating the only solution to the inevitability of falling profit rates under private ownership starts enslaving the reserve army of labor and working them to death directly turning life into money and bringing capitalism to its completion by consuming itself. Just as imperialism transforms yet repeats capitalism at a higher stage internationally fascism is a repetition and return of imperialism but at a higher stage and domestically.

>>2265101
>Yes imperialism is a pre-requisite for fascism
no, the possibility of proletarian dictatorship is - see >>2264186
was poland or yugoslavia imperialist in any meaningful sense?

one thing we know for sure and we all agree upon is that

The USA is fascist.

>>2265115
Are you talking about under Nazi occupation or something else?

>>2265115
Both? Both. Both is good

>>2265130
Cause otherwise i dont disagree that it is a component

1) highest stage of advanced monopoly capitalism
2) failed imperialist expansion
3) austerity
4) crisis of overproduction
5) failed proletarian movement
6) open terroristic dictatorship of finance capital

i'm just situating it historically and explaining why the proletarian movement comes from crisis of overproduction and falling rate of profit, class consciousness rises out of declining conditions. colonial policy applied to the domestic citizen and communist revolution are the two ways to deal with the "sovereignty of the bourgeois state" affirming or negating it resulting in barbarism or socialism as capitalisms final form that either way abolishes and overcomes its liberal foundation

>>2262528
If we're defining it as a government:
An Authoritarian state with a Corporatist Economic model combined with intense nationalism seeking to maintain its hegemony via imperialism, ethno-statism, racism, authoritarianism, patriarchy, and anti-democratic/ anti-socialist policies.

>>2265186
*totalitarian state

The Comintern concisely defined communism nearly 100 years ago but still people insist on lib definitions ("Fascism is when xenophobia") or (wrongly) identifying fascism with the petite bourgeoisie.
Make no mistake, the petite bourgeois are drawn to fascism, but they're mere foot soldiers in the hands of finance and industrial capital, which are the driving forces, as they were in Germany, Italy and Japan.

This and the genocidal expansionist violence is what sets fascism apart from ordinary liberalism. Fascism is what happens when capital is incapable of growing except through violence. And to no surprise, fascism coincided with energy and resource crises in (upstart) competing imperialist powers.
It's also why fascism isn't mere anti-communsim either. Though all fascism is anticommunist.
>>2262787
Definition like these are idealist, because they pretend fascism follows from "ideas".. The ideological content of various "fascisms" is contradictory nonsense. What matter is what it entails structurally and terms of actions.
>>2264898
Trump and his other oligarch backers are fash not least because they're motivated by capitalist crisis (including competition with China) and anti communism.

tl;dr; stop being idealists

>>2265115
I don't know about Poland but as for Yugoslavia fascism never took off. The last prime minister before the outbreak of WW2 in Europe Milan Stojadinović was in charge of a fascist coalition-party (Yugoslav Radical Union) which wished to model ᴉuᴉlossnW and seek greater economic integration with Germany but
<The British historian Richard Crampton wrote that the basis of Stojadinović's power rested on "political jobbery" and corruption as the JRZ functioned more as a patronage machine of a type very common to the Balkans rather than the fascistic mass movement that Stojadinović had intended.
<In late 1938 he was re-elected, albeit with a smaller margin than expected, failed in pacifying the Croats, raised a military-like legion of his own followers ('Green Shirts'), and did not formulate any clear political programme, providing the regent Paul with a welcomed pretext upon which to replace Stojadinović, on 5 February 1939, with Dragiša Cvetković.[46] Prince Paul had by early 1939 come to see the ambitious Stojadinović with his dreams of being a fascist leader, as a threat to his own power.[46].
And Stojadinović was thus removed from power by the prince regent, detained, and given to the British to be kept in exile for the entirety of WW2. The Yugoslav Radical Union wasn't banned but with the disappearance of Stojadinović it ceases to be mentioned, presumably falling into obscurity.

The Croatian anti-Yugoslav Ustashe, meanwhile, never came to power before the Axis occupation and partition of Yugoslavia. In occupied Serbia, the Government of National Salvation was a Quisling regime without support from Serbians. Serbian fascist Dimitrije Ljotić and his party is famously remembered as being politically irrelevant.
<Founded in 1935, it received considerable German financial and political assistance during the interwar period and participated in the 1935 and 1938 Yugoslav parliamentary elections, in which it never received more than 1 percent of the popular vote.

In summary, outside the Ustashe (and only with the help of the Axis), there was no serious fascist current in Yugoslavia.

>>2265186
retarded liberal definition as expected from YPG flag

>>2265213
>for Yugoslavia fascism never took off.
In Yugoslavia it was known as monarchofascism. It encapsulates the time of Obznana (when the communist party was forbidden to operate, given that in the first free elections they got a third of the mandates and a few years before there was the affair Diamantstein, when it was leaked that the comparty is organizing a revolution) and the period during the January 6th dictatorship till his assasination. Stojandinović was just a muppet. Even Ljotić. No, when we talk of fascism in Yugoslavia, we mean the period 1921.-1934.
Poland's fascist period is refered to as the Sanacja. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanation

>>2265838
>till his
regent Alexander's*

>>2265838
But are we not arguing in this thread that it is not fascism if there's no mass support from the petty bourgeoisie, peasantry, lumpen?

>>2265895
No? I think it's clear that fascism tends to build up on actual worker and petty-bourgeois discotent (the worker because she is starving and the petty-bourgeois because he might starve) and tends to act where communists fail to do so. Italy, for example. Or during WW2 with the fascist paramilitaries that (if their propaganda is to believed) wanted to help the worker and the enterperneur without harming the nation.

So when workers took over the factories in italy they were violating le law and giving middle finger to the bourgeosie state? So le state made an exception for le fascist to break the law and even assisted them?

>>2264315
>>2264364
All are shit. There's USA, there's other Western countries, and then there's Third World

>>2266552
The ministry of the interior put up ads to recruit volunteers to break up strikes. It all escalated from there.

>>2265895
Fascism doesn't have support from the petty bourgeoisie, peasantry, lumpen. This is the lie liberals sell you to claim that "populism" is bad and is leading to fascism, and therefore it is required of liberals to protect democracy by denying voting rights, create undemocratic aliances, fool the voting base, not to pass "populist" legislation to avoid empowering fascists, etc etc. Fascists don't have support of anyone but the higher rungs of bourgeoisie, who resort to terroristic means to keep workers in chains

>>2266567
>who resort to terroristic means
colonial means
terrorism today means any non-state anti-imperialist (not necessarily communist) organization that threats 'global stability' (mobility for western finance capital)

Liberals are mad about nazism not because it was an horrid and dehumanizing event but because they were ashamed to have been subjected to the same colonial process they once used in Africa. What liberals hate deep down about nazism is the fact a white man applied white man racism to other white men, and treated them as subhumans

>>2266611
On the contrary, my impression is that Westerners don't give a shit about the suffering of Eastern Europeans at the hands of Nazis.
In fact, my impression is they are barely taught about it. A legacy of the Cold War, I'm guessing.

>>2264234
>I need to remind you that fascists often draw from ideologies that are considered moral and forward-looking in different eras.
Reminder that the BUF was pro-women's suffrage.

>>2266611
>"You are more mad at bad thing when you are the one being raped!"
I mean yeah lol

>>2266567
>Fascism doesn't have support from the petty bourgeoisie, lumpen
Historically false, fascism needs a social base to function.

>>2262528

Liberlism commits all of that (anti-communism, anti-organised labor, colonialism, genocide) against the [cultural/historical and political] strangers. Fascism commits all of that against the [cultural/hitorical and political] allies and ultimately against their own population. Next question.

>>2266567
>Fascism doesn't have support from the petty bourgeoisie
AHAHAHAHAH. The whole fucking reason fascism gained power was from the anxious middle classes you massive retard.

>>2262528
Fascism is a form of capitalist decay, one of its features involves the abolition of democracy for the bourgeoisie and military organized suppression of the proletariat

>>2266759
Well it's one of those things that leftists do to "shock" a reader. Did you know the Nazis did to you what you did to Native Americans??? Makes you think. It's not really "wrong" but I'm pretty sure the Nazis were also fine with what the Americans did to the Native Americans.

>>2267067
This is just retarded lib sloganeering and not actual analysis.

>>2266760
>>2265895
'having support' from the petty borg and being led and funded by the big capitalists isn't mutually exclusive

>makes thread picture park chung hee
be careful you might anger the park chung hee schizzo

>>2267092
it contains analysis if you know what it means. capitalism in decay is stagnation due to consolidation of the means of production into monopoly through market competition and the resulting tendency of the rate of profit to fall that forces capitalists to decrease wages through austerity to increase profit as a last resort that in turn results in working class organizing that provokes the capitalist state into open terrorism to defend the profit motive. that is what capitalism in decay means and why it is also imperialism turned inward when there are no available routes of profit for externalized imperialism whether thats due to the weakness of a particular imperial state or the strength of their rivals. it fits perfectly with the historical example of germany getting left out of the scramble for africa and having to then colonize itself and its european neighbors all driven by the financial monopoly cartels that control german banking and high industry that propagandize downwardly mobile petty bourgeoisie and workers

>>2267343
Yes. But the incidents in interwar Yugoslavia being referred to were the actions of the liberal government/the king. There was no mass movement. It's kind of like COINTELPRO, for example. Is COINTELPRO fascism? And we go straight back to the point being made in the OP, that liberals have done and continue to do everything associated with "fascism", like holding up a mirror.

>>2267368
>that liberals have done and continue to do everything associated with "fascism"
yeah i agree my basic thesis is that the distinction of fascism is while technical and narrow, also inherently chauvinist as it puts imperialist/colonial oppression done by a state to its own citizens in a different category to when it does the exact same thing to non-citizens. its still slightly useful because it highlights the contradictory nature of the bourgeois state and the inability to uphold even the capitalist foundation of private property for individuals when it conflicts with the natural occurrence of monopoly capital. so we can keep the technical side to point out that fascism is inherent to capitalism itself while also identifying it as something liberals already do outside their borders. thats why i wouldn't call comprador regimes fascist or imperialist on their own, they are fascist or imperialist puppets because their violence is not self driven but externally coerced by foreign finance, its why pinochet was a neoliberal not a fascist which highlights how neoliberalism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, its just capitalism returning to a mode of primitive (re)accumulation and why fascism invented (re)privitization of public assets as one method of resetting the trpf and imperialist war as another.

>>2267343
What is your point? I never said they weren't bourgeois led, I just said the social base are layers of the middle class, lumpen, etc.

>>2267436
people are arguing whether fascism is led by the petty borg and middle classes(trotsky position) or if its directed by the monopoly finance capital(dimitrov position). im saying that it is led/directed funded by monopoly finance capital and the social base is determined by that. you have to understand how this social base is materially reproduced. a materialist understanding of fascism is required for attacking it at its source instead of treating the symptoms. to get rid of fascism you must attack the henry ford not the skinhead with a bat.

>>2266654
>In fact, my impression is they are barely taught about it. A legacy of the Cold War, I'm guessing.
I know this is going to sound antisemitic, but it seems everyone knows of the 6 million Jews but little know of the 5 million non-Jews that were killed in the Holocaust.

>>2267469
and this is why fascism did not go away when the soviets defeated the nazi army, because the US and NATO preserved Krupp and IG Farbin with the nuremburg sham condemning soldiers instead of their capitalist backers

>>2267469
well it's i think pretty clear that big capital finances fascist movements which take root among the pauperizing petty-bourgeoisie to 'organically' have dominion over the economic base, but that trotsky's line puts the cart before the horse (i.e. confuses the superstructural change from liberalism to fascism) while dimitrov actually indenifies fascism as actually starting with economic organization when big capital starts to dictate everything around

>2267480
Well, the problem is that for starters, it's unclear if the Holocaust refers to only Jewish victims or non-Jewish victims as well. The Western historian consensus seems to be that the different genocides shouldn't be "lumped together" due to different methods and different Nazi groups being responsible. However, the problem is that the Jewish Holocaust itself involved multiple different methods and was conducted by different Nazi groups. It just feels like Western historians want to downplay the genocide of Eastern Europeans. Also no, I don't think it's antisemitic to point out that Jewish people were not the only victims of Nazis.

Looking it up, about 2.7 million civilian ethnic Poles were killed by Nazis.
About anywhere from from 10 to 15 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians were killed by Nazis. This excludes the 3 million Soviet POWs killed by Nazis.

It's interesting that as far as I've noticed the Soviet POWs are more likely to be mentioned by Westerners than the Soviet civilians.

Admittedly, there has been difficulty with historiography of the genocide of Eastern Europeans from the Westerner side due to lack of access to historical archives and documents. But I still can't shake the feeling there is an ideological bias or prerogative to downplay the Eastern European genocide. Generalplan Ost and the so-called Hunger Plan were not the schizo dreams of Himmler, but active Nazi policy: Eastern Europe was to be literally colonized and settled by Germans, Eastern Europeans, like Jews, were to be either enslaved if they were "fit for work" or exterminated. The Eastern Front was basically a genocidal conquest. Once you realize that, it adds a whole chilling dimension to the Eastern Front. Soviet soldiers were literally fighting to save their families.

>>2267469
>people are arguing whether fascism is led by the petty borg and middle classes(trotsky position)

Trotsky never said fascism is led by the petty bourgeoisie. He clearly states that fascism is a tool of monopoly capital, directed by the big bourgeoisie, but mobilizing the petty bourgeoisie as its mass base.

"German fascism, like Italian fascism, raised itself to power on the backs of the petty bourgeoisie, which it turned into a battering ram against the organizations of the working class and the institutions of democracy. But fascism in power is LEAST of all the rule of the petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, IT IS the most ruthless dictatorship of monopoly capital. "

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330610.htm?utm_source=chatgpt.com

>>2267514
Meant for >>2267480