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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1746890170628.jpg (298.19 KB, 1178x1600, Park-Chung-Hee-1970.jpg)

 

How do we seriously define fascism?

<Anti-communism

Liberals do it.
<Anti-organized labor
Liberals do it.
<Colonialism
Liberals do it.
<Genocide
Liberals do it.

What, instead of the police beating your ass, it's paramilitary thugs? Instead of parliamentary elections, you have a fascist party dictatorship? But is this really a meaningful difference to liberalism?

How do we seriously define fascism?
125 posts and 8 image replies omitted.

>>2262528

Liberlism commits all of that (anti-communism, anti-organised labor, colonialism, genocide) against the [cultural/historical and political] strangers. Fascism commits all of that against the [cultural/hitorical and political] allies and ultimately against their own population. Next question.

>>2266567
>Fascism doesn't have support from the petty bourgeoisie
AHAHAHAHAH. The whole fucking reason fascism gained power was from the anxious middle classes you massive retard.

>>2262528
Fascism is a form of capitalist decay, one of its features involves the abolition of democracy for the bourgeoisie and military organized suppression of the proletariat

File: 1747160397047.gif (1.06 MB, 480x363, giphy.gif)

>>2266759
Well it's one of those things that leftists do to "shock" a reader. Did you know the Nazis did to you what you did to Native Americans??? Makes you think. It's not really "wrong" but I'm pretty sure the Nazis were also fine with what the Americans did to the Native Americans.

>>2267067
This is just retarded lib sloganeering and not actual analysis.

>>2266760
>>2265895
'having support' from the petty borg and being led and funded by the big capitalists isn't mutually exclusive

>makes thread picture park chung hee
be careful you might anger the park chung hee schizzo

>>2267092
it contains analysis if you know what it means. capitalism in decay is stagnation due to consolidation of the means of production into monopoly through market competition and the resulting tendency of the rate of profit to fall that forces capitalists to decrease wages through austerity to increase profit as a last resort that in turn results in working class organizing that provokes the capitalist state into open terrorism to defend the profit motive. that is what capitalism in decay means and why it is also imperialism turned inward when there are no available routes of profit for externalized imperialism whether thats due to the weakness of a particular imperial state or the strength of their rivals. it fits perfectly with the historical example of germany getting left out of the scramble for africa and having to then colonize itself and its european neighbors all driven by the financial monopoly cartels that control german banking and high industry that propagandize downwardly mobile petty bourgeoisie and workers

>>2267343
Yes. But the incidents in interwar Yugoslavia being referred to were the actions of the liberal government/the king. There was no mass movement. It's kind of like COINTELPRO, for example. Is COINTELPRO fascism? And we go straight back to the point being made in the OP, that liberals have done and continue to do everything associated with "fascism", like holding up a mirror.

>>2267368
>that liberals have done and continue to do everything associated with "fascism"
yeah i agree my basic thesis is that the distinction of fascism is while technical and narrow, also inherently chauvinist as it puts imperialist/colonial oppression done by a state to its own citizens in a different category to when it does the exact same thing to non-citizens. its still slightly useful because it highlights the contradictory nature of the bourgeois state and the inability to uphold even the capitalist foundation of private property for individuals when it conflicts with the natural occurrence of monopoly capital. so we can keep the technical side to point out that fascism is inherent to capitalism itself while also identifying it as something liberals already do outside their borders. thats why i wouldn't call comprador regimes fascist or imperialist on their own, they are fascist or imperialist puppets because their violence is not self driven but externally coerced by foreign finance, its why pinochet was a neoliberal not a fascist which highlights how neoliberalism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, its just capitalism returning to a mode of primitive (re)accumulation and why fascism invented (re)privitization of public assets as one method of resetting the trpf and imperialist war as another.

>>2267343
What is your point? I never said they weren't bourgeois led, I just said the social base are layers of the middle class, lumpen, etc.

File: 1747174300443.mp4 (10.26 MB, 640x360, nazis.mp4)

>>2267436
people are arguing whether fascism is led by the petty borg and middle classes(trotsky position) or if its directed by the monopoly finance capital(dimitrov position). im saying that it is led/directed funded by monopoly finance capital and the social base is determined by that. you have to understand how this social base is materially reproduced. a materialist understanding of fascism is required for attacking it at its source instead of treating the symptoms. to get rid of fascism you must attack the henry ford not the skinhead with a bat.

>>2266654
>In fact, my impression is they are barely taught about it. A legacy of the Cold War, I'm guessing.
I know this is going to sound antisemitic, but it seems everyone knows of the 6 million Jews but little know of the 5 million non-Jews that were killed in the Holocaust.

File: 1747174589551.mp4 (31.19 MB, 1280x720, nuremburg.mp4)

>>2267469
and this is why fascism did not go away when the soviets defeated the nazi army, because the US and NATO preserved Krupp and IG Farbin with the nuremburg sham condemning soldiers instead of their capitalist backers

>>2267469
well it's i think pretty clear that big capital finances fascist movements which take root among the pauperizing petty-bourgeoisie to 'organically' have dominion over the economic base, but that trotsky's line puts the cart before the horse (i.e. confuses the superstructural change from liberalism to fascism) while dimitrov actually indenifies fascism as actually starting with economic organization when big capital starts to dictate everything around

>2267480
Well, the problem is that for starters, it's unclear if the Holocaust refers to only Jewish victims or non-Jewish victims as well. The Western historian consensus seems to be that the different genocides shouldn't be "lumped together" due to different methods and different Nazi groups being responsible. However, the problem is that the Jewish Holocaust itself involved multiple different methods and was conducted by different Nazi groups. It just feels like Western historians want to downplay the genocide of Eastern Europeans. Also no, I don't think it's antisemitic to point out that Jewish people were not the only victims of Nazis.

Looking it up, about 2.7 million civilian ethnic Poles were killed by Nazis.
About anywhere from from 10 to 15 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians were killed by Nazis. This excludes the 3 million Soviet POWs killed by Nazis.

It's interesting that as far as I've noticed the Soviet POWs are more likely to be mentioned by Westerners than the Soviet civilians.

Admittedly, there has been difficulty with historiography of the genocide of Eastern Europeans from the Westerner side due to lack of access to historical archives and documents. But I still can't shake the feeling there is an ideological bias or prerogative to downplay the Eastern European genocide. Generalplan Ost and the so-called Hunger Plan were not the schizo dreams of Himmler, but active Nazi policy: Eastern Europe was to be literally colonized and settled by Germans, Eastern Europeans, like Jews, were to be either enslaved if they were "fit for work" or exterminated. The Eastern Front was basically a genocidal conquest. Once you realize that, it adds a whole chilling dimension to the Eastern Front. Soviet soldiers were literally fighting to save their families.

>>2267469
>people are arguing whether fascism is led by the petty borg and middle classes(trotsky position)

Trotsky never said fascism is led by the petty bourgeoisie. He clearly states that fascism is a tool of monopoly capital, directed by the big bourgeoisie, but mobilizing the petty bourgeoisie as its mass base.

"German fascism, like Italian fascism, raised itself to power on the backs of the petty bourgeoisie, which it turned into a battering ram against the organizations of the working class and the institutions of democracy. But fascism in power is LEAST of all the rule of the petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, IT IS the most ruthless dictatorship of monopoly capital. "

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330610.htm?utm_source=chatgpt.com


>>2262528
Its basically despotic liberalism.

>>2267514
>Well, the problem is that for starters, it's unclear if the Holocaust refers to only Jewish victims or non-Jewish victims as well.
The way I remember it being taught in school, the Holocaust referred also to the killing of disabled people, gypsies, and homosexuals. But you're right that it doesn't tend to include the killing of non-Jewish ethnic Poles and other Slavs.

>But I still can't shake the feeling there is an ideological bias or prerogative to downplay the Eastern European genocide.

It doesn't take a big leap to conclude that deaths of non-Jewish Soviet civilians was downplayed in the West because the Cold War. On the flip side, the Soviet deemphasis of a certain special or unique Jewish story of the Holocaust seems wrong at some level and also political.

The way the Nazis looked at Jews as not just targets but the ultimate enemy feels qualitatively different. The rapid acceleration of the Holocaust where whole Jewish populations were being carted off into industrialized death camps very late in the war was really psychotic.

>>2262975
>doesn't say why

File: 1749486800575-0.mp4 (10.94 MB, 1280x720, NATO.mp4)

>>2267488
>>2267488
>the US and NATO preserved Krupp and IG Farbin with the nuremburg sham condemning soldiers instead of their capitalist backers
this is what Gravity's Rainbow is really about, beneath all the pretentious prose and whacky shenanigans

>>2262562
wasn't the second french empire essentially a protofascist government who appealed mainly to the middle class ?

>>2262528
All fascist countries became fascist through democracy/parliament etc. mostly South American fascists got into power without democracy a la Pinochet. So basically fascism is simply bourgeois politics in crisis and resorting to undemocratic means to enforce order on the crisis.

>>2305155
>the ultimate enemy feels
judeo-bolshivesm

The USSR was the supreme fascist state after the renegade clique of Khrushchev and Brezhnev launched a counter-revolutionary coup, seized Party and government power, restored capitalism in a big way, and transformed the Soviet Union into a social imperialist country that plundered a third of the Earth.

>>2306063
same for german empire pre and during ww1

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Fascism is not so complicated as people make it out to be.

The leftist view of Fascism is vindicated.
Leftist view of Fascism is that Fascism is merely the dictatorship & absolutism of the bourgeoisie.
Rightwingers don't prescribe to Fascism as Italian Fascists laid down anyways.
Evola even makes fun of Fascism, calling himself a super-fascist (meaning, the stress on transcendence over immanentism / actual idealism of Gentile), & rightwingers hate the Statism / unitary politics of Fascism.

>>2262528
<How do we seriously define fascism?
Leftist definition.
1. Fascism is merely the dictatorship & absolutism of the bourgeoisie.
Fascist definition.
2. State Corporatism / totalitarianism with the immanentism of Actual Idealism.

If we take Fascism as Fascists describe it:
Fascism is State Corporatism / totalitarianism with the immanentism of Actual Idealism.

>What is State Corporatism?

i.e. like Hobbes' Leviathan, the State as a Corporation of One Person.
It is a unitary mode of politics, generally with a one-party state.
Historically, this unitary mode of politics goes with Plato's Republic & maxims like,
>The state is unitary, supports the idea of many in one or working as one body / corporatism.
>political & economical having the same science
>one party or one estate (one-party regime or absolute monarchy) in unitary fashion
<one party (fascism) or one estate (absolute monarchy) for State Corporatism, an arbitrary or unilateral authority – as opposed to Aristotle's concord of hosts / independent partnership of clans & their convention / virtue, representing multi-parties (multi-party democracy) or multi-estates (neofeudalism).

>Totalitarianism

Holistic view of the State concerned with the life and consciousness of the citizens.
Fascism is mobilized & an active politics, totalitarian and Statist thanks to Actual Idealism.
The immanentism makes the consciousness of citizens and participation in politics worthwhile. It is another reason why they are Statists and not esoterics or like the traditionalists do place Church over State.

>Actual Idealism

https://philosophyball.miraheze.org/wiki/Actual_Idealism
>Gentile believes that the only true reality is the dynamic act of thinking itself — the thinking that thinks. Reality is not found in static entities or separated objects but in the active process of self-consciousness, where thought manifests as a pure act. This pure act is inherently self-referential, as it constitutes the unity of subject and object within the spirit.
>emphasizing that spirit and matter are inseparably united in the act of thinking. Reality is thus entirely immanent, rejecting external or transcendent presuppositions.

>Arbitrary power / violence

This usually comes with unitary / authoritarian politics because of the rejection of Aristotle's concord of hosts.
Think of it as the impossibility of all these factions to paint a canvas together.
Hobbes infamously makes a war of all against all and defers to an arbitrary / unilateral authority to reject this.
To really understand this view, think how well the most opposed political factions might agree or have concord – take the most ardent nationalists like the Nordicists and Pan-Slavists or Southern Europeans and ask them how they'd like to divide Europe, because inevitably they'd disagree on the boundaries and make deference to an arbitrary decision-making inevitable. Are the borders drawn by a concord of hosts or by the sword?

>>2305075
>>2262541
>>2262599
Giovanni Genitle:
>Far from being the negation of liberalism and democracy (which even the leaders of Fascism have regularly repeated for polemical reasons) [Fascism] actually aspires to be the most perfect form of liberalism and democracy.
To be a liberal is to deviate from the Christian traditionalism.
Unless you are committed to returning to pre-Reformation Europe under Catholicism, you are basically somewhat of a liberal.
The only people who can claim to not be liberals are the most hardcore tradcaths / orthobros.

File: 1749580575677-0.png (235.04 KB, 937x939, 32 grace newspaper.png)

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Figuring out what exactly a liberal is? That is hard to define.
Everyone calls each other liberal.
Trad Catholicism / Christian Traditionalism is the only thing that isn't liberalism.
The French Revolution meant rejecting traditional Christianity & a worldview solely defined by traditional Christianity – what is prior to Liberalism is a world solely defined by religious denomination rather than political allegiance, & by the Tradition and Scripture and High Church.

File: 1750363350071.jpg (Spoiler Image,72.21 KB, 960x939, 362876623.jpg)


We have this thread every week so I will just repost this screenshot from now on:
Fascism is not the proper word for it just because Fascist Italy did it first, as you well know Nazism is distinct.
If you want a unifying term for the axis powers that is distinct from capitalist imperialism and liberalism it would be Stratocracy because Trotsky was missing a crucial point in his analysis of "fascism":
All "fascist" states only happened after a warrior class was created en mass and instated into power.
That simple.

its what you dont like

>>2309338

What about non-European absolutist/unitary formations, like the Incan Empire, Pharaonic Egypt or Post-Qin China?

>>2262528
1. I just want to get out of the way the fact that fascism is both a historical political movement, and a word we use to try to describe a form of capitalism and the state in a way that assumes there's some kind of universality to it. I only care about the latter
2. In general capitalism is expressed socially and in the state in diverse ways; if there are discreet phases we should expect only that they express some characteristics more strongly and others more weakly, rather than being something completely new

In capitalist crisis, the bourgeoisie is looking for new markets to exploit, for cheaper material costs, and cheaper labor costs. This leads to such manifestations as the bourgeoisie pushing for wars, suppressing union activity, reaching for total control of the state in order to push it's agenda against the proletariat, working to divide the proletariat in furtherance of these goals, supporting slavery, as well as individual capitalists looking to control the state outside of normal bourgeois democracy and suspending bourgeois rights, in order to pillage and clear away other capitalists, meaning a movement away from bourgeois democracy and for clique/elite control of the state, away from any participation of other classes in any formal mechanisms of democracy left, etc.

So there we already basically have the general idea of fascism. Then on the side of the working class, they're looking for someone to blame for their economic issues, and someone to plunder to fix them. There are generally two possible (forward-looking) answers: plunder vertically (up) or plunder horizontally. Socialists say we can blame the bourgeoisie, and therefore restrict their rights and take from them to fix our economic woes. The Fascists say we can blame members of the working (including the unemployed) and small-owning classes on the basis of race, nationality, ability, gender, etc. and plunder from and restrict the rights of a portion of our own class in order to address the economic woes of one portion of the class. Obviously the latter works very well for capitalists, who see they will actually profit from any plundering, as well as the division of and support of their own reduction in rights and freedoms from the working class.

Therefore in times of crisis the bourgeoisie and a section of the working and small-owning classes (with the strongest impulse in the small-owners, since they are hit hardest and first by crisis) support: wars of plunder, rolling back rights of the working class as whole, removal of democracy, limited expropriation of some capitalists, etc. Since the bourgeoisie and part of the working class are united in bringing about these conditions, they will prevail before revolution is possible as an answer to the crisis. So, fascism is also the repressive stage that communism is incubated in.

Many of these things can happen under liberalism. The only difference is the form of the state, and that's also the real terrain of struggle that makes fascism seem like a huge deal. At some point some of the capitalists desire to openly take over the state in order to have a monopoly on the advantages it can confer, against all other capitalists. This causes infighting among the owning class, and requires a more or less visible power struggle and change of the form of the state. This is why fascism appears to be a large change. But all the other aspects can be present without the state changing its form.

In light of this, I think we should talk about degrees and specificities of capitalist response to crisis, as well as the working class's level of a sense of crisis and their response (socialist or fascist). While understanding that the state changing form is one aspect that deepens the capitalists' response and allows them more repressive and war-pursuing abilities, while not being a disconnected aspect or coming out of nowhere.

>>2262712
I've seen fascism called a bosses' offensive. This makes perfect sense in that regard. Fascism is as simple as the dissolution of democracy in favor of a forcefully unified bourgeoisie. And then they do their bourgeois things, without any internal blockages.

>>2262528
https://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf

This article from Massline.org, provides an In-depth Dialectical Materialist analysis that articulates the conception of Fascism in the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the highest stage of Marxism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🚀☢️!

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Lukacs

>>2262528
>corporatism
>complete rejection of marxist socialism and liberalism
>'revolutionized' society where you want to bring back a mythic vision of a past that never existed to modern standards

That's literally all there is to it. Fascism is a flexible ideology by design.

>>2262787
ur-fascism is a trash definition. a lot of those are societal phenomenons that can happen in liberal societies.

>>2344832
you can easily observe with clarity that any one of those fourteen points pertaining to totalitarianism is fascism. All cut from the same cloth and
it is not insignificant to contemplate
how these points fundamentaly serve to subjugate the proletariat and bolstr the mercantile structures. We shall resist against such manifestations of this opressive
force, stalin himself faught against this horror.

>>2262541
How can liberals be fascists? They support homosexual anal sex and black supremacy.

>>2344824
thats why we define it according to its material reproduction instead of ideas

>>2262528
As a system- a Totalitarian/Authoritarian anti-democratic government with a corporatist economy, focused on class collaborationism, and enforcement of a reactionary social caste system, via a centralised state.

>>2345542
So much so that they're willing to keep black people in a perpetual state of poverty via anti-worker policies and allow far right wing reactionaries a platform/ the ability to make policies at the expense of LGBTQ people?

I've thought about it more and I think the mistake is ascribing "fascism" as distinct from totalitarianism.
Fascism IS totalitarianism, they are one and the same.
This came to me when I was re-reading the opening chapters of Lenin's State and Revolution.

Lenin, citing Engels, is making three claims:
1. The state exists as a result of class antagonism
2. The power of the state intensifies with greater class antagonism
3. The state is alienated from society, it represents the interests of the ruling class in the sense that officials are literally bribed (or increasingly nowadays themselves bourgeois), or the state has financial incentives aligning with the ruling class through the stock market, etc., but the state exists above society and the alienation never ceases.

What I did not realize when I first read this text years ago that not only here do we have the ingredients for totalitarianism, we can literally also explain the "irrational" destructiveness of states seemingly destabilizing capitalism and going against bourgeois interests. The state is an autonomous actor, acting independent of the bourgeoisie. As the state's power grows, the contradiction of its autonomy on one hand and its defense of the social order intensifies. Destruction follows, by violation of liberal rights, by police terror, by war, and, in the case of Nazi Germany, by state-planned genocide.

In the final conclusion, one can debate if the USA is "fascist", but one cannot debate, knowing the facts, if it is totalitarian, because it absolutely meets the threshold.

Capitalism separated from ideals of the Enlightenment

merger of bourgeoisie and the state, and the more theyre merged, the more fascist it is :) also overproduction of patriarchy

>>2346821
eh? isn't totalitarianism like, 1984 spying etc? I thought totalitarianism is like fascism but worse

>>2346843
Anon, the USA literally has several spy agencies. The NSA in particular in recent decades has been engaging in illegal mass surveillance.

>hurr ideologies are a collection of traits
Thanks, Wikipedia. Now try doing the same with communism.


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