Reminder that vague 'anti-capitalism' is never enough by itself.
Discontent with the capitalistic relation is therefore easy to come by. Nothing comes from it, but rather from what one makes of it. And only one thing is to be demanded of it: the criticism must be correct. In this respect, it all depends on whether someone regards something that stinks as theoretically settled when he frowns on it with the yardstick of the morally acceptable and in addition still thinks that what shouldn't be would not have to be if people only made an effort and controlled their egoism. Appeals to humanity and demands for what should and should not be are a dime a dozen; they accompany capitalistic society from its inception and accomplish only one thing: with them the one who criticizes places himself in the right. He is full of good intentions; it is the others who spoil their coexistence.
Marxist criticism does not bemoan that the world is not as it should be, but rather explains why and how it is. It takes the same ills which everyone deplores, and leads them back to their reasons and demonstrates their necessity on the basis of the mode of organization of this society. This is useful in so far as those who object to these ills know what they have to turn against and what is necessary to stop it. In doing this, we come across one thing: many people may want to get rid of capitalism, but only the propertyless reserveless wage-laborers can do what is necessary for it: with their work, they perpetually sustain and reproduce the economic and political power which compels them into its service. They not only have good reasons, but also the means to overturn the conditions which don't suit us.
>>2267234>better proposals for an alternative system.me want more money from my workie works, organize with other worker fellows who want the same, get paid and get laid
>how do you do that?various methods, specifics are not important.
>>2267801There doesn’t need to be any alternative, communism is simply the proletarian movement towards the abolition of the existing world, it emerges historically and due to the development of class struggle, all the communists need to do is not be retards
>>2267923Fuck your feelings, no amount of cope will change the fact that the ML states collapsed, almost all of them overtly reinstated the rule of the bourgeoisie, and that MLs themselves (people who by now uphold nationalism, wage labor, the employer—employee dynamic, bureaucratic management, the wasteful expenditure of societal wealth into resources for the destruction of use-value such as mass industrial arms and nuclear weapons, etc.) cannot actually name a single achievement of their beloved “AES” that wasn’t achieved by states that didn’t pretend they were not capitalist either before the USSR ever existed (industrialization, modernization, mass literacy, mass education, etc.) or contemporaneously via social democratic reforms
No “accomplishment” MLs praise can be called communist, probably a big part of why the cult of leaders is so intense for them, no amount of offense, reverence, or cope changes that basic fact; a lot of the arguments are basically how great it was that many of the non-white or non-western bourgeoisies of the world got to build a power base lol
>>2268128It’s very typical for MLs to resort to anti-intellectualism like any other brainrotted social media freak than to admit they functionally cannot separate socialism from capitalism in any non-aesthetic way
Says a lot that you had to resort to a fascist meme rather than explain how your idea of “socialism” meaningfully differs from national socialism or any other form of capitalist society
>>2268131Communism isn’t “separate” from capitalism any more than an aeroplane is “separate” from gravity. You fundamentally misunderstand communism if you think that it magically “abolishes” capitalism and nobody has to do any work. I’m a little concerned, this is extremely basic Marxism 101 over here, are you sure you’re actually a communist?
>>2268134>REEEEEEEEE ITS NOT COMMUNISM UNLESS I GET TO SUT IN MY ASS AND ENGAGE IN HEDONISM LIKE I’M ACCUSTOMED TO!!!!Meanwhile Lenin
<He who does not work, neither shall he eatZomgbbq was Lenin a problematic FASCIST?!? Oh my science this heckin NAZI is trying to make us work! Who will take care of my funko pops?
>>2268151The state of affairs to be established is exactly what MLs think communism is, the problem is MLs are also retards without a hint of self-awareness, so think the “real movement” is when a state does something and calls itself communist while doing so, while Marxists say, no, a thing is what it does, not what it aspires to achieve; there is no such thing as socialist wage labor or the people’s commodities.
The truth of the USSR’s “real movement” as MLs believe it was achieving came to the fore when it never once abolished a single one of capitalism’s normal features aside from the individual capitalist, and eventually restored the individual capitalist to power as well
The real movement of Soviet history was towards the Russian Federation, a truly stunning achievement
>>2268161No, I can’t
Could Marx?
Proletarian revolution has never once been sustained and accomplished the abolition of capitalist society, that’s just a fact, personal reverence and sentimentality towards any one government is meaningless given that fact
Your feelings do not matter, my feelings do not matter; if your chief concern is to personally feel good then say that, but if that’s the case why would you continue to act like the establishment of communist relations is your actual concern? It isn’t, you just want to feel like your beliefs are legitimate in the face of self-aware liberals critiquing them.
>>2268165well, marx died like 140 years ago, you'd think that in all that time someone would take his theories, develop them further and apply them in real life
apparently no one has, but thankfully we have you now, you finally figured it all out unlike those previous guys
>>2268174> well, marx died like 140 years ago, you'd think that in all that time someone would take his theories, develop them further and apply them in realIf you would think that I would assume you have never read his ideas and are not a Marxist, communist voluntarism cannot bring about the communist epoch, only the abolition of the present state of things by the working class can accomplish that; this is not something that has yet occurred, feeling sentimental towards governments that stole Marx’s name and claim to act in it is worthless
Things are what they are, not what they claim to want to achieve, not who they say they were inspired by, not by the ideals of their founders; things are what they are
Proletarian revolution has as yet not succeeded to maintain power and expand the sphere of abolition yet, this is simply a fact, it is irrelevant if this fact offends you, it is irrelevant if liberals would not accept that fact and mock you for stating it
You speak with incredibly immaturity, and act as if communism is a moral, sentimental mission, and not the abolition of the capital system. If the latter has not been achieved, the former has not been achieved, only attempted. Your feelings don’t matter.
>>2268180i
speak write with sarcasm and you read it like a homeschooled child would, the point i tried to get across is that you have jack fucking shit to show as an example of the real world application of what you preach while at the same time spreading anticommunist slander at actual attempts
>>2268185marxism is a science, yes
>>2268191You don’t need anything to show for it, I read you like you’re a moron actually, hence why I take much of what you say at face value, because morons tell their truths even when they lie. My point was that you think like a liberal, like an internet shitposter, whose every day is spent trying to convince liberals that your own iteration of liberalism is equally valid. Most people will never take the Soviet Union as having something to “show” for socialism unless those people live in a wartorn country usually, because to most of the world you really are offering them the problems they already face with a bonus of possibly functional possibly dysfunctional welfare. Often times you MLoids aren’t even smart enough to lie to people and tell them you don’t fantasize about committing arbitrary violence based on people’s wrongheaded ideologies. And the real problem is, you like to quote Marx on communism not being a state of affairs to be established, yet when I explain the actual meaning of that phrase, you whine that unless you can wank to the USSR, you don’t have an example of “socialism” to give people. You understand nothing.
>>2268205Sorry to shock you with this fact, but most people are not communists, and most people definitely aren’t stalinists/MLs
I know it’s hard to believe even non-whites are individuals, but yea, that’s the case
>>2268195I'm from acountry that was feudal and cllonized prior to the formation of the ussr.
Thanks to its legacy, even after the defeat of socialism, I live witb some amount of dignity
Unlike the countries colonized by the british, french, etc., that never had a socialist revolution, and so only ever traded one yoke for another
So eat shit, cracker faggot
>>2268211Okay but the thing is I don’t care about your feelings
Science is not sentimental
Communism isn’t when I gain an independent indigenous bourgeoisie lmao
MLs really should stop branding themselves as socialists and just be regular nationalists, genuinely all of their beliefs center around national independence, why would they attach themselves to a movement that exists to abolish nations
>>2268212Actually, you’re right, my bad
I told you most of the global proletariat rejects stalinism because it largely doesn’t sound anything like communism and really just a shittier version of capitalism, with most stalinists like yourself being too stupid to even deny that you fantasize about committing arbitrary violence if you gain power
Somehow this got turned into most people inherently hating communism when in fact most people think communism sounds like a good thing and everything they reject about the Soviet Union were all the ways it replicated the conditions of capitalist society
>>2268225Nah, my critiques of stalinism aren’t sentimental, unlike your defense of it
You’re the one defending feelings and reverence as if they matter in regards to real material analysis and don’t serve only to obscure
The difference between an ML and a Marxist is that the Marxist will compare ML arguments to Hitlerite screeds by analyzing their actual contents, MLs will compare Marxists to Hitler by saying Hitler didn’t like the Soviet Union either 😡
>>2268230Pol Pot was another one of the shining beacons to ML in my mind, since, again, most of his arguments were Stalin and Mao tier nonsense, and the only reason MLs don’t uphold him is because even they have enough self-awareness to know he makes them look bad
He also appealed to sentimental nonsense and immaterial ideals like national spirit and ethnicism and the like
>>2268244But he didn’t?
Do MLs not comprehend that Marxists generally don’t adhere to this concept of “communism in one nation”?
National socialism is unique to the stalinist interpretation of Marx’s ideas of revolution, not the Marxist one in total/general
>>2268094>Amazing reading comprehensionShut the fuck up. I don’t want to hear that fucking shit. I tagged that shit for a reason.
Motherfuckers talking about “all the communists need to do is not be retards“ and “There doesn’t need to be any alternative, communism is simply the proletarian movement towards the abolition of the existing world” and “I'm so so tired of retards thinking communism hasn't happened because nobody has come up with the perfect ideal yet.“.
Communism is a doctrine on the conditions of liberation. It is a practical movement that seeks abolition of the exist world and is born from historical development. Communism is a societal type, stage, and economic that requires the abolition of money, state, and class to exist.
In the theories of Karl Marx, he discusses methods and tactics that can be used by future revolutionary movements to pave the path towards revolutionary victory and lower stage communism. He also talks about lower stage communism as well. In both of these, he is somewhat uncertain about the specifics of what needs to be done in each specific nation on this world. While he is quite firm overall on the details on what needs to happen generally, there is still enough unfilled space that allows future theorists to be adapted and help optimize and improve revolutionary movements in the future.
This is why theories that descend from Marx’s theory such as Council communism exists, and helps avoid stupid fucking statements such as:
>“all the communists need to do is not be retards “ >>2268248Where was the capitalism in Comrade Pol Pots communist Utopia?
You defined your communism earlier son, I'm only holding you to your original definition communism is the abolishment of capitalism, why the sentimentalism and goal post moving?
>>2268273>Explain how council communists are going to sieze power from the bourgeoisRevolutionary violence, ideal historical conditions, and a careful, but strong and close cooperation with the rest of the proletariat, acting as a guiding vanguard (not vanguard party) to a new societal stage.
>what are your practical steps to achieve thisDepends on the country
>how will you run the economy after seizing state power but before beating the bourgeois entirely across the planetAs a baseline, a dictatorship of the proletariat managed by worker councils.
>https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Council_communism>how do you plan to win an industrial war against the bourgeois powersBy engaging in industrial war, utilizing guerilla tactics, or by causing dissent in their working populations.
>Explain how you are going to win without saying 'history will deliver us victory when all the working class just get up and do a revolution simulatenously across the world without any individual need for action'Without the right amount of historical development passed down to a potential movement, your revolution won’t come to pass. Doesn’t matter what you do individually. If you do not have the pieces, you do not have the pieces. If you have no opportunities, you have no opportunity. Doesn’t mean you should do nothing. Just means you might be limited in what you can actually accomplish. You should always try to be historically progressive in your endeavors.
As for current times, conditions are actually quite favorable. Just needs a little more push.
>>2268291Righteo, so obviously Communism is therefore not the abolishment of capitalism.
Now in theory
abolishing the commodity form, which is what you meant to say when you claimed defined communism as the abolishment of capitalism because you obvioisly have some tentative grasp of the theory, but commiting the error of Haz
The abolishment of the commodity form is only possible once a DoTP in the loose sense of a system covers the entire earth yes.
And in theory jargon a DotP is most certainly not socialism, so you are of course correct in calling the socialist states not socialism in that strict theory jargon sense
Yes and?
The more you emote, the more I'm going to bully you about your sentimentality
>>2268501Thin veneer for wrecking moralizations, what
exactly were the "steps backward" that the bolsheviks had to take?
>>2268307Communism is a classless society.
/thread
>>2269422Sorry, was I supposed to read some retarded screed trying to justify why MLs are mentally cucked by nationalism, religion, and race?
Was it appealing to the peasantry?
What a bunch of retarded anticommunist fags
>>2269453Well, what are you waiting for, then? Go abolish them
Or are you a class collaborator?
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