/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2267764
You've got it backwards, they invade, they don't run away.

>>2267772
well both, it's clear rising living standards in the first world and asking for more shit led to moving manufacturing elsewhere.

>>2267764
This is why free trade must be fought with the exception of China that is building up productive forces to counter USA hegemony.

>Internationalism
>country
…

>>2267803
how is this advancing socialism btw. like what is the end game here. how are you going to press the socialism button when commodity production is so widespread and you are exporting capital to foreign countries

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/chinese-tea-chain-giant-mixue-buy-agricultural-products-worth-usd5563-million-from-brazil-enter-country-this-year

>>2268017
That's collective capital to produce socialist commodities, stupid ultra

>>2268017
>how is this advancing socialism btw.
Two ways. First of all fighting fanatically anti-communist USA advances socialist positions across the world. Secondly China is still in a transitional stage from a poor 3rd world country most of Africa was richer per capita than China in the 80's into a moderately wealthy society that is ready for full socialism.

>>2268017
>commodity production
Oh didnt notice you are one of these autists. Dont post anything to me again.

>>2268017
>Buying food to import into China, a heavily food-import dependent country, is imperialism
We've reached such retarded "anti campist" levels that it's wrapped all the way around to outright denial of material reality. Yes, China needs to buy food in order to feed their citizens because they can't produce enough domestically given the land they're working with at home. So?

>>2268049
Nta but if you read the actual article China intends to hire wage laborers in the country, which would in fact meet the definition of the export of capital and the exploitation of foreign labor thus devouring up a share of the external countries labor force and ability to independently develop capital

>>2268051
Did YOU read the article you fucking moron? It was part of a deal where the Brazilian government demanded China set up shops in Brazil to provide jobs to Brazilian labor in exchange for Brazil offering to export their agricultural product to China. It wasn't a demand from the Chinese side it was a request from the Brazilian government agency. If I had to speculate I'd say it's because Lula is hemmed in by the retarded anti-debt laws passed by the conservative congress so he's looking for alternatives to boost employment and wages without direct government spending thus he's cutting deals like this because he's hemmed in by his own budget and legislative rules. God anti campists are so fucking retarded.

>>2268041
the 80s were almost 50 years ago. china is the 2nd largest world economy on its way to become the first. it is the largest trading partner of most countries in the world and its companies are exporting capital to foreign countries

>>2268073
It doesn’t need to be a demand from China mate, I’m telling you I read the article, a thing is what it is. Imperialism is not a moral category. Do you think no country has ever asked for US investment? How do you think France and the UK ended up so heavily invested in Imperial Russia?

A thing is what it is, you’re telling me a thing is what it’s moral status implies, I’m telling you it is what it is. A capitalist firm is exporting capital to a foreign nation so it can extract surplus value from their laborers and to sell tea produced by foreign laborers working for the Chinese firm in another country back to Chinese workers within China. Lenin himself didn’t say the foreign bourgeoisie needs to have their arm twisted or get nothing out of the arrangement for imperialism to occur, MLs decided that decades later due to being moralists.
>Inb4 not a political colony, China isn’t the only country inside Brazil
Most of America’s imperial periphery aren’t literal colonies and never have been, imperialism doesn’t require turning another country into a colony, during the Century of Humiliation the imperialist powers all mutually raped China and no one controlled it singularly until Japan tried to

>>2268081
Considering China seems to have decisively defeated America in the trade war it might actually be the strongest economy in the world by now, its GDP was already projected to surpass America’s in just five years

>>2268083
>Most of America’s imperial periphery aren’t literal colonies and never have been
lol the fact that this entire thread is about Latin America and you can say this with a straight face is proof enough of your idiocy

>>2268083
>A capitalist firm is exporting capital to a foreign nation so it can extract surplus value from their laborers and to sell tea produced by foreign laborers working for the Chinese firm in another country back to Chinese workers within China.
Nope because the company in question has to hire 25,000 Brazilian workers which is an additional cost that it doesn't have to bear since it already has enough production to produce what it needs to meet the needs of the domestic market. This is why you should have read the article. The Chinese company had no need for additional Brazilian workers this was a demand forced upon it by the Brazilian government investment agency.

>>2268093
Also another condition was that its supply chain must include more Brazilian resources. Again, this is something that was totally unnecessary and only imposes additional costs upon the company which was working fine with their regular supply chain and objectively had nothing to gain besides more costs by meeting the conditions set out by the Brazilian government agency. The fact that they did is actually the ultimate proof that China is not operating using capitalist logic because they are meeting all these conditions despite the unnecessary hassle and additional costs it is imposing upon the company in question.

>>2268093
>Nope because the company in question has to hire 25,000 Brazilian workers which is an additional cost that it doesn't have to bear since it already has enough production to produce what it needs to meet the needs of the domestic market.
You’re just reiterating my point about extracting surplus value from foreign laborers but giving me more details about the exact way it is happening. What does it matter that the current supply is sufficient for the current market? The general moves of the foresighted capitalist firm is always towards expansion rather than mere accumulation, the idea is to be in place in advance for when the market expands, if it expands. To already have one’s stake in the land, as it were. Are you trying to claim this firm *will not* be extracting surplus value from the laborers it will hire? If so, are you saying it is operating at a loss and is actually unprofitable? Even an unprofitable firm generally extracts what little surplus value it can, even if these do not keep up with costs. How can this firm function without the extraction of surplus value? How will reinvestment simply to renew or replace machinery be acquired? Please think my friend. Use your brain. Or at least read the first three chapters of Capital Volume 1.
>>2268097
So China also has to exploit more of Brazil’s resources as part of this deal, and in your mind, this is actually a non-capitalist socialist interaction because China needs to distribute investment to acquire these resources? And you also believe that prior imperialisms did not have extensive deals in them as well? And that a Chinese capitalist firm is investing in a Brazilian tea producing operation, and will primarily utilize resources from Brazil to then sell back in Chinese domestic markets, for the sole benefit of Brazil?

Do you know what capitalism is?

>>2268090
I don’t think you know what a colony is
You don’t need to enact actual government rule over another country to control its domestic policies
You don’t need to turn a country into a colony to exploit it economically and extract resources from it
You don’t need to turn a country into a colony to overthrow an unfriendly government and impose a right wing dictator with support from the local bourgeoisie
You don’t need to turn a country into a colony to fund terrorists inside it and destabilize the nation
Puerto Rico is a US colony
Guam is a US colony
For a country to be a colony it needs to be a part of the metropole’s legal territory for starters, and no, legal isn’t a moral term; the country needs to actually possess the other country as a colony

>>2268086
exactly. they have surpassed the US in multiple ways already. when will it be 'enough' to press the socialism button? I actually cant wait until china officially surpasses the US to hear what cope dengoids will come up with, if the richest country in the world is still too poor to achieve socialism then youre basically saying that socialism is impossible

>>2268149
The problem with dengoids is the answer to this that could cover China’s ass is that only the proletarian international revolution could achieve socialism, the problem is:
1. They’d have to admit the proletariat must overthrow the PRC alongside every other bourgeoisie state
2. They must admit that China wasn’t building socialism because socialism isn’t something some government can voluntaristically achieve
3. Constitutions and other idealist nonsense that make up the superstructure of bourgeois states do not matter

ultras to dengoid pipeline when it comes to defeating capitalism at home
>china saveeeee meee press the buttooon start the world war save meeee

>>2268156
“Ultras” don’t exist, there are only Marxists (what red libs call “ultras”) and liberals of various stripes and colors

Nobody expects China to save anyone, what the people you’re referring to are doing is throwing your own retarded logic back in your face until you’re forced to admit the only “socialism” China could potentially be establishing is national socialism once you’ve accepted class collaboration and repudiated international solidarity in your worldview

>>2268156
its funny that they think china will export the revolution when china refuses to help commies in the philipines and india

I saw a Chinaman have two whole bowls of rice instead of one and yet China didn't nuke Washington yet. Which clearly shows they are class collaborating with the Golden Billion.

>>2268163
Actually, they’re asking Dengists to explain a single thing China is doing to “establish socialism” in their minds
As you say, the PRC doesn’t even assist communists in their immediate vicinity

Let's say China starts exporting revolution right now. How would porky react besides starting a counter revolutionary war that China would lose? A 1.4 billion people economy that needs to import ressources for a succesful war economy vs 6 billion counter revolutionary forces. Really? Its a capitalist world and its gonna stay that way for the next centuries until China, Cuba and North Korea has space colonies, its like asking Switzerland to btfo the feudalists in the 11th century, no man, they barely would fight off the Habsburgs, calm down. China could be for communism what the US was for the bourgeousie, but it would need to survive the next centuries for that to happen, and it would need to colonize space, or conquer the world in a WW3 scenario.

>>2268181
> Let's say China starts exporting revolution right now
That would be incoherent unless you mean China trying to encourage proletarians at home and abroad to rise up. I think the main reason China doesn’t “export revolution” is because it wants its hundreds of millions of wage laborers to do their jobs instead of overthrowing their bosses.
> How would porky react besides starting a counter revolutionary war that China would lose?
This is just an argument against the fallacious concept of socialism in one country then; for without international revolutionary the only function of the “socialist state” is to permanently maintain itself, which means maintaining its position as a stable factor in world capitalism, which means maintaining world capitalism
Why would socialists care about a bourgeois state working to maintain world capitalism because “realpolitik” other than its evaluation as an enemy of the proletarian communist movement?
> A 1.4 billion people economy that needs to import ressources for a succesful war economy vs 6 billion counter revolutionary forces
Maybe this would be easier for you if you could analyze the world in terms of classes in struggle rather than nations in struggle

I think the problem is that Dengists cannot envision proletarian revolution anymore than any other liberal can

At this point you actually are arguing that China is a fairly conventional liberal bourgeois state helping to maintain world capitalism in the name of its own self-interest and to preserve its existence as an organization of violence but communists should “support” (wtf does support mean) it for, what, sentimental reasons? Moral ones?

>>2268181
>How would porky react besides starting a counter revolutionary war that China would lose?
china would not lose that war by any means.

>>2268190
It took the US 300 years of waiting in exile until the feudalist powers started a war so devastating that the US could stop their self-isolationism and to use this opportunity to spread bourgeousie rule in Europe. During that time, the US invited feudal investments and profited from chattel slavery. Then another war engulfed the world, the US also took this opportunity, or more likely forced the war by sending funds to the Fascists in Europe to weaken the Communist block, as the former revolutionary against feudalism turned counter revolutionary against Communism. Now most of the world is bourgeous with Saudi Arabia being the last Absolute Monarchy.

Critical support to the US up until the 19th century, as Marx and Engels agree.

Right now, China is that progressive force, give it some time, we will all be dead by then when their opportunity arises in the future.

>>2268206
> It took the US 300 years of waiting in exile until the feudalist powers started a war so devastating that the US could stop their self-isolationism and to use this opportunity to spread bourgeousie rule in Europe
Holy historical illiteracy Batman!
Didn’t think “Capitalism began in 1945 when America achieved hegemony over Europe” would be an actual take here in dengistpol

Whenever I think dengists have reached the bedrock of retardation they whip out a water drill and burrow even deeper!

Thesis
>Ultra-ism
Antithesis
<Deng-ism
Synthesis
ULTRA-DENGISM

>>2268213
Explain how I'm wrong? Weren't the two World Wars the biggest victories of capitalism?
Up until then there were small uprisings that were defeated by counter revolutionary forces over and over again, starting with Italian Merchant republics, over to the Netherlands, the English Civil War and Revolutionary France, it took the US and the World Wars to permanently establish bourgeous control over most of Europe.

If you literally follow the Marxist line that the change of the mode of production is a process that will take centuries and will have many defeats then you're a dengoid.

>>2268234
idk if ur ragebaiting but ww1 and ww2 were not wars between 'feudal' powers. by that point bourgeois rule was solidified in every european country.

>>2268239
well china would be one of those defeats then. i guess we need to wait another century

>>2267764
>companies leaves elsewhere for cheaper labour
That's where you are wrong, buddy. It is a position influenced by retarded Westoid cope of "we wuz ones to build you ingrates industries and shiet", where Westoids claim industries of countries like Russia or China to be Westoids' PITY on those countries

Companies don't go anywhere, they are stuck. However, they also get outcompeted. There's no incentive for big corporations to continue using overpriced services of American contractors when they can get better quality and better pricing from, say, Indian callcenters

>>2268234
> Explain how I'm wrong? Weren't the two World Wars the biggest victories of capitalism?
No, the two world wars were nearly the end of capitalism and displayed the absolute necessity of proletarian revolution as human civilization likely cannot endure a Third World War, which is inevitable under the antagonistic international relations inherent to world capitalism
> Up until then there were small uprisings that were defeated by counter revolutionary forces over and over again, starting with Italian Merchant republics, over to the Netherlands, the English Civil War and Revolutionary France, it took the US and the World Wars to permanently establish bourgeous control over most of Europe.
Bourgeois rule doesn’t require a liberal democracy/fascist state, bourgeois rule was essentially established over the world by the late 19th Century, the period after the World Wars allowed a deeper entrenchment of capital in its most advanced form over the entirety of the world outside Europe and North America
I would say, rather than being the apex or whatever for capitalism, the world wars historically signaled the end of the bourgeoisie as a revolutionary class
>>2268239
Why would the Marxist line continue feeling sentimental support for a defeat that currently works to maintain global capitalism?

>>2268234
karl marx was able to literally see a century ahead to write about what capitalism will be like, god forbid when we come to see lenin's prophetic premonitions of imperialism

>country/region pushes for workers rights
never happens

>>2268234
How are Communist Russia - the result of WW1 - and Communist China - the result of WW2 - victories of capitalism?

Reminder that capitalism has only been in control the past one to two centuries. Mfs think real life is a shounen anime where the protag (Communism) just needs to try hard enough and the prole hivemind will cause a domino effect over planet Earth and shit

>>2268271
It does, though? China is trying hard enough, and USA is losing trade wars now

>>2268268
But both are non-existant and non-communist at this point?
Ultra to dengoid pipeline is real.

>>2268271
it's also a highly transitional mode of production that has come to broadly stop needing itself as we create the capacity to replace some of the last bits of human labor.

>>2268278
Historical role of capitalism was to raise peasantry out of their hovels and into cities. This is what capitalism could do, and only that. But then capitalism got outclassed in such urbanization/industrialization/modernization drive by communists, and since then capitalism was in denial about everything. Initially, labour theory of value was the main economic theory of capitalist economists, but since failure of capitalism to uplift any more countries, capitalist economic thought has degenerated into plain denial of facts, complete death of theory in favor of very basic practice.

>>2268268
WWI - Final collapse of the old European monarchies, granting more power to the bourgeois by dissolving multinational empires into national republics
Defeat of almost all European revolutions (including the critical German revolution) and capitalist regimes established
WWII - Axis capitalism defeated at the cost of the USSR crippled permanently and America obtaining world hegemony
Welfare capitalism established to secure its position

I wouldn't say they were complete victories for capitalism, obviously

>>2268295
>Final collapse of the old European monarchies

Both Russian Empire and Austrian Empire were capitalist countries by that point.

Also, you are forgetting the removal from capitalist world of 150 millions of people. Liberation of Eastern Europe from empires as well

>Defeat of almost all European revolutions
Pffft. What about the extrememely sturdy worker movements?

>Axis capitalism defeated
Lmao. Capitalism has lost an entire bloc of itself to communist might

>USSR crippled permanently
Literally quoting Cold War propaganda about "USSR weak, attack NOW!" It wasn't true

>America obtaining world hegemony
????? It didn't happen, though. American proapgandists love to portray it as "American Century", but in reality American Century lasted all of 20 years since ~1985-1990, ending with present day communist China asserting dominance

Where are victories? Capitalism had 100% world domination before WW1, after it was 90-10, before WW2 it was 70-30, after WW2 it was like 50-50, it moved back in 1990s with the collapse of USSR, but now it's again 50-50, and but with a singular communist state being in the hegemonic position

Capitalism was only losing it's dominance since WW1

>>2268306
>Pffft. What about the extrememely sturdy worker movements
You can't compare that to Europe going red
>Lmao. Capitalism has lost an entire bloc of itself to communist might
I do believe it was a victory for communism, but one capitalist bloc won over the other. Ww2 was a compromise with western liberal capitalism against fascism
>Literally quoting Cold War propaganda about "USSR weak, attack NOW!" It wasn't true
Ww2 affected it in the long run, demographically, economically, preventing a fast population boom that would have made the soviets way stronger. Left 1/3 of the economy destroyed, several Million dead. Half the party dead, paved the way for carreerists, market liberals
>????? It didn't happen, though. American proapgandists love to portray it as "American Century", but in reality American Century lasted all of 20 years since ~1985-1990, ending with present day communist China asserting dominance
What about Bretton Woods, the Marshall plan, the establishment of NATO, etc? It was all for America's dominance

>>2268306
i wish i lived in the same world as MLoids
>t-t-the US never had hegemony!!!
i fucking wish lmfao

>>2268107
If your dispute is over surplus value extraction the USSR's planned economy also stole surplus value from its workers to redistribute elsewhere kill yourself you are so braindead it is physically cringe inducing to have to reply to your stupidity.

>>2268578
Now you’re just explaining why literate Marxists know the Soviet Union wasn’t socialist, retarded cunt lmao

350 I.Q thread

>>2268271
people like you is why we don't have gommunism yet. believe in the powrr of friendship

>>2267764
If you want the reindustrialization of your country then it will be necessary to use state capitalism until the socialist economy is implemented, this means nationalization of the national bank and suppression of all private banks to be extinguished, where a popular council with workers without neoclassical, Keynesian or MMT economists or administrators of financial capital will coordinate cheap state credit for the population encouraging cooperatives and occupations of land and factories by workers against the private property of capitalists where the government will encourage the bankruptcy of all of them to be punished and to be nationalized, collectivized, socialized and expropriated using public companies that will compete in the market with cheap products to bankrupt capitalists who will have public credit debts, not to mention the high progressive tax just to attack capitalists and take away any means of preventing the organization of workers and their radicalization, any relationship of financial capital to imperialist exploitation abroad will be removed and the right to employment and housing will become guaranteed with equalization and labor rights for all workers without exception being defended, along with mandatory unionization with punishments for capitalists for every hour of work that they do not pay the worker, having solidarity to compensate the worker so that the capitalist state collapses in a revolutionary situation.
Economic sovereignty and reindustrialization can be achieved, but understand that the ruling class will hate the population so much and will want to punish them, but you must not be afraid of conflict and fight if you want to complete the revolution to implement the dictatorship of the proletariat and this requires sacrifices.