/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2288197
why was trotsky conspiring with the japanese, though

Stalin vs Trotsky debate be like

>>2286979
Marxism-leninism is the default status quo communist ideology at least in my country. Its a good start for young and inexperienced to develop their own ideological position.

>>2288248
so true bestie! except that the debate continues on because trotskyites tend to join hands with modernizing parties in western europe while stalinist parties still adhere to the antifascistic united front idea
>>2288251
>Its a good start for young and inexperienced to develop their own ideological position.
lmao why? so there's more confusion in the movement? so we have a bunch of individualist larping their own unicorn ideology?

>>2288232
You reap what you sow you fucking moron, why should I give you any charitability when you're spouting complete nonsense from the start. Projecting about how MLs are supposedly white or too young other whatever other individualist psychobabble you were going on about

>All because I called out a few facts
Again with the baseless projection and psychoanalysis, people aren't mad because you're espousing "facts" lmao, don't make me laugh. Just look at the actual arguments. Something you conviently ignored during this entire meltdown of yours

>>2288248
Go back to reddit child

>>2288248
Trotsky was correct, Stalin was an utter retard that set the revolution back.

>>2288293
https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/trotltrs.htm
can you explain what trotsky meant by this?
Letter to Chkeidze, Vienna, April 1st, 1913
<In a word, at this moment, all that Leninism consists of is based on lies and falsifications, and bears in itself the seeds of its own decay. There is no doubt that, if the opposing party knows how to manage, gangrene will soon develop among Leninists, precisely because of the question of unity or division.
<Two policies may now be applied: to destroy ideologically and organically the fractional walls which still exist, and thus destroy the very foundations of Leninism, which is incompatible with the organisation of workers into a political party, but which can perfectly grow on the manure of splits; or, on the contrary, to conduct a fractional selection of anti- Leninists (Mensheviks or liquidators) by a complete liquidation of the divergences on tactics.
Letter to M. Olminski, 1921
<You ask me whether to publish my letters to Chkeidze. I think that it would not be appropriate. It is still too early to work as historians. These letters were written under the spur of the moment and, obviously, the tone suffers from this.
<… this retrospective review of factional struggle could, still now, give rise to controversy, because, I confess frankly, I do not think at all that, in my disagreements with the Bolsheviks, I was wrong on all points
<… this fundamental error is due to the fact that I was analysing the two fractions, Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, by placing myself from the perspective of the permanent revolution and of the dictatorship of the proletariat
<… I was hoping (as I have repeatedly expressed in letters and reports) that the course of the revolution, itself, would lead them to the programme of the permanent revolution
< I estimate that my appreciation of the driving forces of the revolution was undoubtedly correct, but that the consequences that I pulled from the two fractions were unquestionably false

>>2288293
>Trotsky was correct
Lmao imagine actually being this cucked by the CIA

>>2288293
based :^)

>>2288301
>>2288304
ur just jelly

>>2288335
Cmon man, I mean Im not really a Trotsky hater, but at a certain point you gotta realize he was just mad he got kicked out of the party lel. Bro should have just taken the L, but he couldn't let it be.

>>2288205
Marxism-Leninism is just advanced liberalism tbh

>>2288103
Trvke
If anons here gave even half a damn about communism they would kill themselves in shame
Unfortunately they are the exact sort of honkie they love to mock

>>2288140
Based, let’s slaughter children, mutilate women’s genitals, stone adulterous cunts to death, and force children to lay their prayers unto Allah; after all, with “no state of affairs” there’s really no way to determine what is and isn’t communism other than if it’s a brown porky that hates whitey!

>>2288103
Marxism-Leninism is not Third Worldism.
>All materialist analysis and objectivity must be disregarded
Thats exactly what you are doing when you reduce anti-imperialist analysis based on material conditions to race.

>>2288194
>Care to actually refute any point I made?
You didn't actually make any points. Its just a list of ad-homs and strawmen and a demonstration that you dont understand even basic Marxism without Lenin while conflating and flattening every tendency you dont like into one on the basis of some obscure racial grievance that only you subscribe to.

>>2288103
>>2288103
>Marxist-Leninists who uncritically support
first of all they dont
>DPRK, China, Iran, the Taliban
>>2288103
Vietnam, Cuba?
>they believe black and brown people aren't as socially, theoretically, or intellectually developed and sophisticated as white Americans.
This is a very strange critique. Communists don't critically support a particular nation based on its ethnic makeup or its ideology, but based on its material level of development in industry and its relation to the world imperialist system, and not in comparison to America based on its ethnic makeup but in comparison to highly developed advanced countries in the stage of imperialism.

I dont know why you think a communists in another nation that lacks even the basics to materially reproduce everyday life should forgo developing the productive forces to meet peoples needs just to make you feel better about something that has no effect on you whatsoever. How is recognizing that a particular country lacking electricity, clean water, roads and schools should have those things racial essentialism?

Really your whole post sounds like projection
>In my country we already have those things so no one else needs them
Its your own idealism and failure to apply material analysis to recognize differing levels of development and dependency that leads you to such conclusions, instead universalizing your own experience to the whole world without investigating the reality of the situation.
>my country is already developed so no one else needs to develop
and the classic
>in my country teachers and parents make me do homework and have bedtime so no one should have authority, communism is when everyone has free icecream for dinner, under communism freezers and cows for milk will spontaneously appear according to my desires and no one will have to work

real communism will never be tried anon, whatever a revolution happen it will be stained, just like capitalism or liberal revolution always failed in their idealism.

>>2284431
Cannabis smokers are like " I wanna take the edge off" like whut the heell they don't want to have to think about getting cucked / cheated, the monotonous work cycle, cybersecurity paranoia and they want to have fun in their free time? That sounds awful, they probably want to rape and kill people and simply hide it under a disguising addiction habit regardless if they don't even get to smoke one joint because they don't want to break the law, its the thought of challenging the divine law of the people by the people that is chinese (eurasia, third world and the progressive eastern races) that shows they are actually western liberal addicts already addicted and can only be fixed by police action. Retarded degenerate druggies are holding back communism from destroying Israel and America! Mossad destabilizes China with THC and China is like this gigachad sober and alcoholic conservative and yet progressive society that will NOT murder fags while liberal westerners are ungrateful that disguising candidates for addiction are being punished by the people's police? What else are we gonna do if the people's police don't punish cannabis users, China will literally become degenerate! I had this one friend who smoked weed and he became a degenerate trans faggot, under internet communism I get to be as chauvinist as possible without getting booed and right now trans and fags are too popular to call them degenerate so its better to write that China tolerates them so they should be grateful, drugs are still taboo so its fine to call all drugs degenerate lumpen and no, I don't care what different drugs are, anything that you can have fun with is degenerate and you should go to jail for it except alcohol and tobacco because its the material conditions and the culture. Conservativism in society is like collectivism that's like communism while liberalism is like individualism like degenerate weed smoking prostitutes which should be arrested and killed on a whim like Catholic Communist Comrade Duterte did. The people's war on drugs is good and the war on drugs is good and based and communism / socialism, its good to kill people for having fun the wrong way because the wrong way is harmful because I say so and my sources which are absolute truth say they will destroy communism if they aren't killed because communism's fate depends on killing cannabis users and other drug users because they're like degenerate and bourgeois decadent and lumpen while the conservative and patriotic socialist nationalists are like the proletariat, the workers, a cannabis user is literally incapable of work and is probably a liberal CIA nazi fascist? This is all true by the way, unironically based and I'm 18 I say based a lot and play videogames and I'm in this group we live in the US (Lord Mao forgive us for being born in the imperial core) its called Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist-Dengpilled Party of the Global South, we're like 3 people (AS OF NOW) and are a catholic communist Palestinian nationalist PFLP DFLP China anti-trot, anti-ultras, anti-ancom, anti-leftcom, anti-heresy discord server that's straight edge and based and the west is jew so if you want to join us too bad because like better to be a son of God than a dog of Odin. Nazbol gang gang anprim gang gang Ohio L Rizz L bozo cannabis users delulu cappin addicts

>>2288544
>You didn't actually make any points

- your arguments are based on your psychoanalysis of your political opponents rather than any engagement with the actual stances and arguments presented by MLs

-Your estimations of the demographic makeup of what you ascribe to be MLs is pure projection, based from your own weird obsession with race

-MLs are not Third Worldists and TWism is only tangentially related to it

-You are a self congratulatory, self righteous loser

There, seeing as you needed to have it spelled out for you

>Its just a list of ad-homs and strawmen
Grow up, maybe you'd feel more at home on reddit or some discord debatelord server


>Marxism without Lenin
lmao

>while conflating and flattening every tendency you dont like into one on the basis of some obscure racial grievance that only you subscribe to
That is just you projecting, you dumb fuck, you're out here claiming MLs are somehow third worldist lol, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

>>2288998
oh i thought you were the other guy

>>2288673
Real Communism is thriving in Communist China

>>2288673
Can't tell if serious
It's been said before and will be said again, however if your theory/ideology has no connection to reality you need to update it.

>>2284426
no contradiction!

>>2285161
>imperialism bad
bourgeois imperialism is bad. proletarian imperialism on the other hand is doubleplus good. we should hope that there is much more of it. much more transport of MoPs from the developed to the developing world. much more exploitation of the labour power that lies fallow in say Subsaharan Africa
>The first line of Capital says that capitalism - the production of commodities is the capitalist mode of production
capitalism is generalized commodity production. there's no contradiction at all in communist commodity production
>>2286149
but anon what else would we talk about if we didn't quibble over the definition of words?

I really don't mind (at least somewhat reasonable) critique at all. However,
I think it's a little much to demand the end of commodity production when it's coming from people who couldn't hold down a job or organize as much as a birthday party. Sorry, I don't wanna be mean, I know you can critique things you have no real experience with, however here I think these two facets are inextricably linked.
The less you are, the less you live, the more you have an opinion on the right way of doing things. Or rather an opinion of how things should be as they don't have more than a nebulous conception of doing things.

>>2289023
Your critique is even more general. Imagine getting mad that post-colonial opted out to modernize and industrialize in the only way known - i.e. the western way - to secure their anticolonial revolution and that then they didn't abolish commodity production 'fast enough'.
Their heads would explode if you tell them Stalin was planning for more democracy, less party control, 7 hour work days, only to be cut short because German imperialism attacked

>>2289032
Ok

>>2289017
>transport of MoPs from the developed to the developing world
development is zero sum??

>>2289032
Nobody’s mad that they did that, leftcoms don’t care that they did that
Stalinoids think “leftcoms” are making a critique of moral revulsion when stating these countries were not “socialist” unless you mean their aesthetic or purported ideology; meanwhile Stalinoids actively and aggressively appeal to moralism when trying to justify what could make any ML society, as MLs themselves shakily explain them, socialist at all
>Do you think they have no le hecking bourgeois right to become the West when they are brown, slavoid, or asiatic?
Lmao I don’t fucking care?

>>2284340
China is hypercapitalist

>>2289783
So they should just abolish commodity production without industrializing? How does that work?

Any historic examples? Cambodia maybe?

>>2289966
So it seems, so it seems

>>2289879
>200 replies in
>says nothing of value
🍔

>>2288190
>a Menshevik
For which years? Might as well be calling Lenin a Narodnik.
>who first collaborated with the British and then the Nazis
Right, they should have gone the USSR path and collaborated with the Nazis and then the British
>and openly cheered on the destruction of the Soviet Union and the Russian people
Trotsky was critical support gang you lunatic.
>from the safety of his mansion in Mexico
Clearly wasn't safe.
Seriously though, stop being a baby and read. There are good critiques of Trotsky and these aren't them.

>>2290106
>"this ain't it chief" posting
k

>>2290116
it'd be nice if you had an argument for why trotsky was wrong other than hundred year old lies

>>2289879
China is in the preliminary stage of socialism with a dictatorship of proletariat guiding the country towards a more advanced stage of socialism.

>>2290117
I don't give a shit about Trotsky except insofar as he has an outsized importance for anti-real socialism people. It shows their poverty of philosophy they still cling to 100 year old lies instead of coming up with anything fresh whatsoever.

>>2290123
is the real socialism in the room with us right now?

>>2290125
Well, no, it's the anarchists and such that believe you can do socialism on small, individualistic scales and what have you.

>>2290123
>It shows their poverty of philosophy they still cling to 100 year old lies instead of coming up with anything fresh whatsoever.
Clearly you haven't been keeping up with the Pabloites, Grantites, Taaffites, Cliffites, Healyites, Hansenites, Macnairites, Mandelites, Steinerites and all other forms of counterrevolutionary opportunism blocking the path to planetary proletarian revolution. We urge all workers, youth and intellectuals stirred by this call to action to unite in Rank and File Committees and to contact the International Committee today.

>>2289966
Do MLs believe communism is historically achievable, yes or no?
>What should the USSR have done
I mean based on everything MLs claim there was effectively nothing they or any other ML state could have done to reach the socialist mode of production, I don’t even necessarily disagree

Do you actually mean to ask
>”Which past historical formations or figures should communists of the future seek to emulate”?
None
History alone will determine what actually happened ends up being successful

>>2288103
Completely agree, modern MLism essentially amounts to picking a sports team and supporting it, rationalizing every contradiction and denying every uncomfortable fact.

Has any ML state actually sustained socialist, let alone communist, principles and not taken the form of a capitalist, undemocratic and nationalist/state building nation? No.

Their big heroes Statin and Mao actively worked against and sabotaged other nation's communist movements out of chauvinism and nationalism, and their messiah Lenin instituted a monumental terror surmounted only by his successor.

>>2288103
>>2288132
shabbat shalom

>>2284340
>If you 'denounce' the historical real socialism that existed and exists, you can't be a communist.
I do not denounce the socialist states of the past, but the very same socialist states denounced thier own progress and reverted back to capitalism leading to the erasure of all socialist powers to this day. If you cannot acknowledge this fact you cannot be a communist today and infact only continue to propagate the revisionist lies that led to the retreat of socialism.

>>2290705
>Their big heroes Statin and Mao actively worked against and sabotaged other nation's communist movements out of chauvinism and nationalism
how about you actually read what Lenin and Stalin had to say about the national question and chauvinism? https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm
>and their messiah Lenin instituted a monumental terror surmounted only by his successor
revolutionary terror is good actually

>>2288103
>Marxism isn't just opposing the West and supporting national liberation. It's about the class war of the international proletariat against the ruling class. Please remember that.

Trvke