How were sakaists wrong? Where do you even start with the reeducation of the white proletariat if a revolution succeeded right now, the internet is dominated by think tanks that push the white genocide myth, there were like 5 mass shooting cases the past couple of months where chuddies killed their classmates, insulting a black kid nets you $1 million bucks and its gonna get worse from here on out.
You can deny idpol all you want, but when brown people fear for their lives then they will react and defend themselves, and some anti-idpol leftist isn't converting those people over to their side with constant fence sitting when white people fantasize about a world wide genocide.
Or will the western left continue to huff their farts, while the fascist machine sends some more people to el salvador and bombs more palestinian children?
>>2288271>I have around 50 armed men who have reached and volunteeredto invade Haiti just for the fun of it.
>Don't tell me it isn't impossible.this was a subplot in my book where a bunch of stormfags, racist mercs, and pedo evangelical missionaries team up with the grandson son of Duvalier to invade and create a techno-libertarian govt in Haiti.
The problem is trying to blame it all on the white people for why there isn't a revolution. No, every ethnicity is complicit in it, even dudes in Gaza are choosing reactionary Islamic rule and with the genocide it will definitely draw more people that direction. You can't deny this because a couple of months ago even NewsAnon called the PA (representative of the PLO, which is the left-wing faction in Palestine) Zionists, which that made me throw my hands up in the air over that one. I'll probably catch a ban for this post by the liberal mod. Anyway, the most vehement anti-communists I meet are southeast Asians and Hispanics, both who are treated as genetically angelic by the author. Just being a certain "race" doesn't exempt you from the illusions of the capitalist ideology. There is no racial component to recognizing the contradictions in the system.
Then as a work of theory, Settlers is junk. It constantly gets terms incorrect, like at one point he labels all of the Irish as petit bourgeois because there were some Irish cops. If we're doing that, then black people are genetically petit-bourgeois. It ironically follows that ACP definition of proletariat meaning anyone who isn't a factory worker (or streamer hehe) is bourgeois, because it goes through census data and labels anyone outside of farm-hand or factory labor as bourgeois.
I didn't think it was a complete piece of shit. Some of the earlier chapters demystify early America "revolutionary" acts like Bacon's Rebellion, which even today CPUSA types like to defend as "socialistic." Bacon literally rebelled because he wanted to enslave more Indians that the British colonies had alliances with. He admits to it in letters to his sister, which are cited in the text and you can find them online easily. However, Settlers very conveniently ignores the fact that most of the major Indian tribes also held slaves. I did like how the author pointed out the ineptitude of the CPUSA compared to the Black Panthers (which were betrayed from within by black members.)
Most third-worldists you see are incredibly white and love to speak "for" the third world. We had a thread some weeks ago where a third-worlder tried to explain that the people there just want to be more like America, because they have money. He was told to shut up by the comfy, white suburban posters and the third-worldists I see always fit this cliche. Statistical data supports the opposite of the third-worldist view, most likely since there isn't a USSR to support them if they alienate themselves with a "socialist" revolution. Before you say "China", China literally sells weapons to the Philippines that were used to put down Maoist groups in the region.
My point isn't to put down any race it's just that socialism isn't a race war, and the second you go down this road you become the most annoying type of liberal. Fitting that r/socialism, which permabans people for saying "stupid" (ableism), declared it essential reading over all other books.
>>2288271>deny idpol all you want, butCalling me out on it doesn't change the fact that idpol is irrelevant for class interests. And class interests are the only political issue that needs to be addressed in capitalism because of exploration and oppression get abolished along with it.
>some anti-idpol leftistsThat's all of us and radlibs aren't leftists.
>>2288438>By replacing class motion with racial ontology,It didn‘t replace it, it examined the racial factor of how white proles choose and align themselves.
>locking people into fixed rolesIt‘s not about fixed roles, it‘s about sociological tendencies brought about by more factors than class but also racial identity.
>based on inherited guilt or victimhood.No, it‘s about white people being socialized into racism and therefore tendencially not siding with dark skinned proletarians.
>>2289425Sakai is dismissed here because he works backwards from the preconceived idea that whites are incurably racist and then outright lies about the evidence in order to support his thesis. One of the most prominent examples is his misquoting Foster to make him out like he's calling for negro genocide when in fact he's calling on unions to attack racism within their ranks and to prioritize organizing black workers.
The problem with idpol is that it particularizes problems that have always been working class problems, and it does it in a way specifically designed to prevent any meaningful change or resolution. One reason being because these "identities" are reliant on the presence of these forms of oppression, and once resolved that "identity" is obviated. This makes success terminal for any organization built to try and solve whatever idpol issue, and that's heavily at odds with the current neoliberal order and the financial incentives it produces.
And that's why communism and idpol are diametrically opposed. Communists seek to obviate all the conditions which make idpol possible as a philosophy and economic source, and why idpolists are so hostile to class based analysis and action.
>>2289415>Cool, and how will you arrive at your revolution when those privileged by the superstructure continue to antagonize their oppressed counterpart? That's a weird generalization, privileged parts of the proletariat are not all reactionary and we don't cater to reactionaries anyway.
We aren't in a revolutionary situation quite yet that means recruitment happens in the political avant-garde. People who can't understand how their privileges are largely insignificant and can be taken away at any point are not interesting to us.
>The question is why are people like YOU not effective at recruiting women, queers and poc into socialism? The answer lies in entirely disregarding “idpol”.What socialists do instead is explain how capitalism and especially imperialism relies on special exploitation of certain groups to put pressure on and split the proletariat along lines the ruling class comes up with. In contrast to reformists we provide an explanation for that oppression.
>>2289447>have always been working class problemsThat is clearly wrong if you look into racism, women's issues and queer issues. And please don't cherry pick 2 problems that are in fact socioeconomic. I didn't say there were none.
>and why idpolists are so hostile to class based analysis and action.Did you infer that from a parallel universe? Virtually any working class person is talking about socioeconomic issues including idpol liberals, and when their finger doesn't land on "proletariat" and "bougeousie" then it's out of ignorance and not ideological hostility.
>And that's why communism and idpol are diametrically opposed.They aren't. An intelligent communist sublimates concerns of identity politics into their theory and strategies to win people over instead of entirely ignoring them and asking everyone to ignore them.
>>2289453>If you constantly paint the working class white person as incredibly privileged instead of a victim of the capitalist class, guess what, he will want to keep said relative privilege.Lol. 1) They acted like this before. 2) Your argument is not successful in shifting the blame on those speaking out against superstructural oppression. Instead your argument makes white working class people come across like petty and vindictive babies.
>You are dividing the working classWrong. We are exposing a divide that already existed regarding subjects otherwise swept under the rug by everyone privileged. A divide doesn't vanish just because you didn't talk about a problem that is necessary to address. The divide lies in the situation itself.
>because oh noes the white man unfairly earns slightly more than meThere is a substantial wealth gap between between black /native Americans families and white families. If you actually believe the socioeconomic difference is neglibible then you would not have a problem with living by 25,000$ a year, living in dilapidated neighborhoods and having your kids go to a decrepit school full of thugs. That is the socioeconomic consequence of historic racism, and not merely earning 1,000$ less like you tried to make it sound like.
THAT's what I meant how white male communists drive away non-white people from their cause. You are just as dismissive and ignorant of a subject that you clearly feel antagonized by like whites who are right wing. You are the reason why white male communists fail to recruit people who are not like themselves.
>>2289457>That is clearly wrong if you look into racism, women's issues and queer issues.It might surprise you to learn that women and queers are predominately working class.
>Did you infer that from a parallel universe? No, just this one.
>They aren't. You're wrong.
>>2289422you know that
Sakai does not
that's my point
>>2289523You are not white. White doesn‘t simply mean being pale. You are an indigenous person colonized by actual white people in Norway. You are at best white passing in the US, which does afford you superstructural privileges, but you aren‘t actually white.
As said, your wage is not representative of the average white household. I‘m really tired of arguing with retards. How can you have a PhD in anything and not understand what an average is and that outliers don‘t refute general tendencies?
>But do you really want to exclude me from socialist struggleLiterally no one said that.
>>2289535>NorwaySweden. And also fuck off you do not get to tell me about how privileged you think my so called racial group is, that you even dare to exclude us from your definition of "white" is fucking insulting.
>As said, your wage is not representative of the average white household.30k a year is actually almost exactly the mean here… You Americans are just ludicrously rich, that American warehouse workers earn more than European doctors is not a meme. Point is you are demonising so called white people for being privileged simply because of their so called race, while ignoring the larger structural issues enslaving us all to the capitalist system.
>>2289630that's was funny when you're saying that to gayass /pol/acks in the 8ch days
>imagethat's just late 2010's twitter
>>2289653>I‘m just taking the word of Sami activistsShow me the single Sami activist who do not claim to be white by American racist classification. Maybe the incredibly enlightened who actually know "Caucasian" exclude Finno-urgic people (but do exclude Finns and Hungarians from being white too then lmao), but you use white, not Caucasian, so no.
>Good thing you didn‘t tick the affirmative action box for your 30,000$ income job to spite le wokes.No the Swedish state don't ask that question in job applications, no Swedish company does at is extremely illegal for very obvious reasons.
>>2290091>Sankaraalso in the past 50 years
>worselet's see if he survives longer. the more you win the more westoids complain that you aren't pure enough.
https://www.blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution >when brown people fear for their lives<For months we were told that Trump was an existential threat, a dictator, and a Hitler incarnate. But now that he is in office again, actual Hitler loving Nazis parade through U.S. cities with impunity and Black leaders like Hakeem Jeffries who whine about not having leverage are certainly of no help to people facing self-proclaimed fascists.<Let us all give a shout out to the people of Lincoln Heights, Ohio. The open carry and stand your ground laws weren’t meant to be for their benefit, but they acted upon them anywayhttps://blackagendareport.com/power-black-self-defense-lincoln-heights>>2288438>replacing class motion with racial ontology, locking people into fixed roles>>2289394>idpol is irrelevant for class interestsMarxist gamerchair pseuds really said "we're all workers!" while mysteriously never once talking to their undocumented slaves before they were sent to a death camp.
Do you think we haven't noticed???
Sir you are materially no different than any Zionist Marxist settler Jew, actually I would rather hear what a Kibbutz worker has to say because we all know that not a single USA Marxist has ever set foot on a farm ("I'm too weak and disabled to ever get a sun tan, unlike our child slaves" - asthmatic Breadtubers)
>>2288534>No, every ethnicity is complicit in it,the word ethnic is defined as "not white or Jewish" lol
>>2288271Don't agree with Sakai, but I can't help but laugh at anti-idpol types. Race, religion, nationality, migrant status, sex, gender, ethnicity, caste, age etc. affect capital accumulation, but the moment you try to incorporate these factors into class, they start acting all fussy. Of course, these aren't permanent situations, but still.
>>2288442There's a reason why most of these middle-class losers are white. Now I'm not saying they are like this because of their race, that would be putting the cart before the horse.
>>2293113>>2293113>>2293113>>2293113>>2293113/thread
Sakai was debunked back when 8chan was still on /leftypol/. By the original SaboCat poster of all people too.
>>2293655Not wrong tho
The fent honky and Musk and zbezos are all lumpen
>>2293716 (me)
Ah turns out Sakai is a jap
Dude was just mad that the Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere got nuked into oblivion
Fuck his imperialist jap ass
>>2293717It is
Just like Houdinism is a thing
But the Iron Fist of the amerikkkan worker will crush them both
>>2293356U r demcrackka
Anti IdPol does not deny race, religion, gender etc as factors. Anti idpol just recognises that the bullshit of ‘intersectionality’ just means communists supporting racial, gender, religious bourgeois reactionary demands but the opposite never happens. The religious nuts, the gender obsessed etc never show solidarity with communists. Instead, they nitpick that the communists did not suck their dicks hard enough and shit on the communists. In practice, idpol is anti communist and annihilates whatever real communist movement is left over after the Nakba of 1991
>>2293035I am from the global south and I am not the so-called "white", so your discourse will not work on me to manipulate some sense of guilt. You want to use this discourse of identity guilt to co-opt the workers of the imperialist core to serve imperialist capitalism by manipulating the feeling of pity of the minorities because they can no longer serve the bourgeoisie and be assimilated by neoliberal imperialist capitalism instead of them accepting that the bourgeois class and its agents and apologists are the enemies of the working class and that the only salvation lies in the organization for the domination of the proletariat in a workers' party independent of the bourgeoisie.
Let's see what Marx and Engels say about the participation of communists in a bourgeois election:
<Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels , "Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League"https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
<The first great step of importance for every country newly entering into the movement is always the organisation of the workers as an independent political party, no matter how, so long as it is a distinct workers' party. And this step has been taken, far more rapidly than we had a right to hope, and that is the main thing. That the first programme of this party is still confused and highly deficient, that it has set up the banner of Henry George, these are inevitable evils but also only transitory ones. The masses must have time and opportunity to develop and they can only have the opportunity when they have their own movement–no matter in what form so long as it is only their own movement–in which they are driven further by their own mistakes and learn wisdom by hurting themselves.
<Frederick Engels, “Letters: Marx-Engels Correspondence 1886,” Marxists Internet Archive, Engels to Friedrich Adolph Sorge In Hoboken.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1886/letters/86_11_29.htm
<Complete abstention from political action is impossible. The abstentionist press participates in politics every day. It is only a question of how one does it, and of what politics one engages in. For the rest, to us abstention is impossible. The working-class party functions as a political party in most countries by now, and it is not for us to ruin it by preaching abstention. Living experience, the political oppression of the existing governments compels the workers to occupy themselves with politics whether they like it or not, be it for political or for social goals. To preach abstention to them is to throw them into the embrace of bourgeois politics. The morning after the Paris Commune, which has made proletarian political action an order of the day, abstention is entirely out of the question.
<We want the abolition of classes. What is the means of achieving it? The only means is political domination of the proletariat. For all this, now that it is acknowledged by one and all, we are told not to meddle with politics. The abstentionists say they are revolutionaries, even revolutionaries par excellence. Yet revolution is a supreme political act and those who want revolution must also want the means of achieving it, that is, political action, which prepares the ground for revolution and provides the workers with the revolutionary training without which they are sure to become the dupes of the Favres and Pyats the morning after the battle. However, our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy.
<The political freedoms, the right of assembly and association, and the freedom of the press — those are our weapons. Are we to sit back and abstain while somebody tries to rob us of them? It is said that a political act on our part implies that we accept the exiting state of affairs. On the contrary, so long as this state of affairs offers us the means of protesting against it, our use of these means does not signify that we recognise the prevailing order.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, "Apropos Of Working-Class Political Action".https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/09/21.htmIf you want to know about capitalist imperialism, I have Lenin's texts for you to read that demonstrate your falseness in trying to co-opt workers into the chauvinism of the bourgeoisie that you probably want to use as a means of denying wars of national liberation and denying the duty of socialist solidarity of workers to block any sale of weapons to all the puppets of financial capital that maintain American and European hegemony.
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