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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


 

Why do boomer leftists love(d) Israel so much? Guilt over the holocaust? Romantic depiction of early colonists in their national-socialist kibbutz? Positive media exposure in their formative years?
Most of old people supporting Israel in the west were staunch left-wingers in their youth, sometimes they still are leftist just not on this particular issue.

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>>2291946
<assertion
>Why do boomer leftists love(d) Israel so much?
Please come back with proofs.
Also, /QTDDTOT/.

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why are leftists presumed to be anti-israel in the first place? theres no immediate contradiction between being a communist and a zionist.

>>2291979
>theres no immediate contradiction between being a communist and a zionist.
Wanting to rape and murder Arabs and steal their homes simply because they're Muslim all because your religion told you it's your land and not theirs is indeed a huge contradiction for any Communist with a brain.

>>2291984
>Wanting to rape and murder Arabs and steal their homes simply because they're Muslim
is that what zionism means?


>>2291992
you have the mind of a child

>>2291994
>no real arguments only insults
as expected from a zionist
when you can't simply scream HAMAS to win a debate like in a bar in Tel Aviv and actually have to convince other people to support your genocide they are repulsed by you

>>2291989
>Is that what Zionism means
Yes and it's pretty clear to everyone with functioning ears and eyes.

>>2291996
what argument can i have against an idiot? an argument presupposes that you are able to learn.
>>2292000
so zionism is just the hatred of muslims? nothing else?


>>2292007
>what argument can i have against an idiot? an argument presupposes that you are able to learn.
this sentence coming from the arrogant retard who has not disproved a single claim in this thread so far how audacious
>so zionism is just the hatred of muslims
yes now what is your rebuttal concede now or die like the genocidal worm you are

>>2292015
why would i have to "disprove" self-evidently absurd claims?
>what is your rebuttal
to the claim that zionism is just islamophobia, and nothing else?

>>2292022
you say it's self-evidently absurd but for 99% of the world (excluding Jews living in Israel and those politicians paid off by said Jews living in Israel) it is self-evidently clear. So yes burden of proof rests on you to deny it which is impossible because even Zionist historians trotted out for media interviews admit that Zionism was birthed in blood through dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the Arabs already living there.

>>2292025
wait, so its about arabs in particular, and not a holy war against islam now? are you the type of person to mistake islam for an ethnicity? seems kind of racist to me.

The only people left shilling for Israel are right wing old people. Older liberals for the most part are anti Israel at this point

>>2292026
Palestinians are Arabs and Muslims you dumbfuck kill yourself.

>>2292033
>Palestinians are Arabs and Muslims
all palestinians are muslim?
all arabs are palestinian?
you see the logical errors youre making here?

>>2291979
Supporting bourgois nationalist movements ("Palestinian liberation" and "Zionism") isn't a position for socialists to take.

>>2292053
whats the socialist position then?

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>>2291946
Conceptually, giving oppressed Jews a place where they can be safe sounds left wing. Unfortunately the active apartheid proves the logic to be faulty, not that it matters to the boomer left

>>2292072
where would that place be?

>>2292075
Should've been Germany if we're being honest. Palestine shouldn't have been punished for Germany's crimes (in either World War, really.)

Or, simply, the Zionist movement should’ve faded out into early 20th century obscurity where it belonged.

>>2292072
>giving oppressed Jews a place where they can be safe sounds left wing
No it doesn't. It sounds very liberal and assumes jews are a special class/breed that need to moved away from "regular people". A secular government that doesn't divide by ethnicity and race is the first tiny step towards leftism. If you really wanted to make up to jews give the ones who were affected by the holocaust reparations. For example if Germany truly cared, they would have given part of their own land to jews after the fall of the nazi empire.

>>2291979
>being a communist is compatible with being a colonialist
nope, kys fuckface

>>2291979
zionism=hitlerian race science

thats not even mentioning pissrael is a crucial part of the imperialist system
>>2291989
they openly say this you braindead retard

>>2292007
>zionism is just the hatred of muslims
is the hatred of everyone besides other (zionist) jews
>>2292066
supporting genocide and opposing national liberation against an outpost of imperialism obviously

>>2292289
Are jews magic beings who should be sheltered off from humanity?

>>2292289
>>2292075
everywhere
>>2292131
trvthnvke
>>2292289
>>jews shouldnt have the right to self-determination
this is not true
>should be forced to live with people who hate them
no one naturally hates jews thats a hitlerian-zionist possition
>>2292300
yes, kill them all
>>2292303
>why shouldnt they be allowed to
no country belongs to any race

>>2292303
>why shouldnt they be allowed to
Because they're stealing land and killing people. Nazis also shouldn't get a country for being percieving themselves to be a special chosen race. Again. Are jews magic beings who should be sheltered off from humanity because they can't get along with people? Why? Because of their genocidal ideology?

>>2292313
Amerikkkans should be returning all the land to the Native people and leave it to the latter whether they can stay or not.

>>2292318
Why aren't you answering my question?

>>2292285
Jews lived in that region before colonialism and were fine. It’s only after the fact it’sa problem. Now that they’ve colonized the region they’ve made their bed and should sleep in it.

>>2292322
>>2292309

>>2292332
>you never asked a question.
Here is is ziosister
>Are jews magic beings who should be sheltered off from humanity because they can't get along with people? Why? Because of their genocidal ideology?

>>2292309
>>2292309
>you want jews to live with people who hate them
you believe this because zionists have indoctrinated you into believing goyims are inherently hateful of jews and can never live peacefully around each other this is the same possition hitler and all antisemites hold and goes against historical facts

neither jews nor gentiles are the enemies of humanity but fascists-nazis-zionists are and we should kill them all

>>2292332
> the bed is already made
Well, yeah, they made everyone hate them. That’s my point.

>>2292303
>whos going to stop them?
me

>>2292335
Answer my question, ziosister. You haven't responded till now. Black people haven't invaded other countries telling people they can't get along with anyone so they just need to murder babies.

>>2292335
>do you think palestinians like jews?
yeah I wonder what those innocent little jews could have done to make the evil palestinians so angry might have something to do with all that ethning displacemente, bombing hospitals and burning people to death, raping prisioners and publicly bragging about it thing

being a "staunch left winger" back then just meant thinking black people were actually humans with equal rights and not wanting to die in the vietnamese jungle or in other words an incredibly low bar

>>2292346
you don't give af about this anyways you are just another hitlerian pig thats why the only language zionists understand is armed resistance

>>2292354
I'll ask you again ziosister since you really don't want to give a direct one but we all know why. Are jews magic beings who should be sheltered off from humanity because they can't get along with people? Why? Because of their genocidal ideology? Do they have the right to kill and rape babies because of them being jewish? Is that self determination in your eyes?

>>2292335
today I learned that LITERALLY the only problem with the actual 1930's-40's holocaust was that there was already a Germany For Germans. That was the ONLY problem. Everything else would have been justified if there wasn't.

It's both Holocaust guilt and the romanticized depictions of 20th century Israel.

Noam Chomsky, for example, said that when he was growing up, he initially viewed Zionism as something different from a genocidal settler ideology.

His naive view of Zionism at that time, which he obtained from his family, was that it was about the existence of a cultural center for Jews where they could live together harmoniously with Palestinians rather than what would eventually become the observable reality of Zionism to him over time, which is a settler colonial ethnostate that displaced and ethnically cleansed Palestinians from their land in the name of creating said ethnostate.

The difference between him and most boomer leftists though, of course, is that he actually did start to grow up and realize that Zionism isn't as pretty sounding as he once believed it was and that the reality of it is a much more horrifying one, while a lot of boomer leftists are still refusing to accept that reality no matter how much more obvious it has become and how much more difficult it is to ignore now. They're still clinging onto this fading glamorized image of the kibbutzes from a self-described socialist Israel that they were told was necessary to protect Jews after they had to endure the horrors of the Holocaust and Nazi persecution.

>>2292053
>umm it’s actually of no concern to communist the imperialist hegemony is aligning itself with a bunch of doomsday fascist of the religious and secular variety. Completely ignore the material conditions rapidly deteriorating in the imperial core of capitalism. And whatever you do never oppose imperialism or support ““bourgeois” national liberation”, I repeat never fight against capitalisms last retreat to maintain power. Never point out the atrocities, the horror, and please guys I’m super serious here. Never. And I mean never exploit obvious political weak points, score easy propaganda points or be a voice on an obvious popular position the ruling class cannot or will not cede on. That would be opportunistic my fellow comrades.

>>2292380
> he initially viewed Zionism as something different from a genocidal settler ideology
<Why was Gordon S. Wood's refutation of the 1619 Project's claims concerning the American Revolution published on the World Socialist Website?
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/18ir503/why_was_gordon_s_woods_refutation_of_the_1619/
<Wood unabashedly revives the consensus history of the 1950s. After the Revolution, he gushes, "suddenly, everything seemed possible." Americans were "living in the freest nation in the world," where "ordinary Americans" thought of themselves as "anybody's equal." Revolutionary leaders were reaching toward "an ideal world, to put the broadminded and tolerant principles of the Enlightenment into practice, to become a homogeneous, compassionate, and cosmopolitan people." But before we go out and hoist the Stars and Stripes, he reminds us that the Founders' "high-minded promise to end slavery and respect the rights of native peoples" (incidentally, a promise they never made) was no match for "surging demographic forces accelerated by the Revolution." The implication is that we cannot blame the Founders for Indian land grabs and the western expansion of slavery, which only resulted from disembodied forces that could not be contained. Wood contends that these changes were "so complicated" and "fast-moving" that the Founders had no idea what was happening. Yet by 1815, the transformation was complete, leading him to conclude, "democracy and equality were no longer problematic issues to be debated." This amazing coup represents a past that few academic historians accept anymore.
<So by the time the 1619 Project was published, his influence on the historiography of the American Revolution had decidedly waned. However, WSWS is not an ordinary publication. Part of their Trotskyist party line is that the American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution which tore down old feudalist relics, created conditions for new freedom, and accelerated the historical dialectic towards world communism. In order that Americans revere the revolution until communism is achieved, it is necessary that WSWS keep the 1950s-era "consensus history" on life support for as long as it takes.

>>2292992
Except wsws's opposition to 1619 isn't that it doesn't revere the American Revolution enough but that it advocates for a racialist view of history instead of a class based and materialist one.

>>2291946
>Most of old people supporting Israel in the west were staunch left-wingers in their youth
The premise is a bold lie. Why does this thread exist?

>>2292072
>>2292131
Honestly people should have learned from Liberia how quickly an oppressed group can become the oppressors if given the opportunity. It also shows the futility of ethnic separation as a solution to such oppression.

>>2291946
they are brainwashed, some would stop after they saw what true zionazism is…

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>>2293323
Yeah I think it's a mistake to view boomers as a bunch of leftists who turned conservatives. Actually, the boomers in the New Left saw themselves as a besieged minority in a very conservative society and that included a significant number of their peers as well.

But I think a left-to-Zionist pipeline is probably more common among Jews. There are Jewish-Zionist publications (I'm thinking of Fathom Journal) that are hostile to the Free Palestine movement and the left, but the people are middle-aged and older ex-leftists, and I mean people who had once been in really hardcore groups in some cases like the Spartacist League (which is a strict anti-Zionist organization). But they they tend to hit harder because they understand what leftists actually believe more than Ben Shapiro does.


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