/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>group rewarded handsomely to defend capitalism
>their entire livelihood literally depends on capitalism existing
what do you think genius

if a police service is to exist under socialism, it must be entirely rebuilt from the ground up
you cannot have the existing structure still in existence for it is bourgeois in nature and designed to protect the bourgeoisie

>>2297964
This. Any "police" we do have under socialism is going to look fundamentally different from our previous conceptions, especially considering the legacy of police brutality being a hot topic in the west. At most I could see certain volunteer domestic militias who are given the power to intervene in public disputes but that's the most power they'd be given and they'd be subject to regular performance reviews by the community. How exactly that will all work is like everything else going to heavily vary on the communes in question.

>what are communist and socialist stance
stances, as you know there is no single answer because there are many schools of thought (anarchism, trotskyist variants, M-L variants, maoism, ….. ).
For example, M-Ls are likely to claim the police in China are under the command of a workers party and therefore not problematic in the same way they are under capitalist control, pointing to differences in behavior. While anarchists and Trotskyists are more likely to consider them still counter-revolutionary and oppressive.

To make it worse, most people online or new will just yell slogans they heard without understanding the context and meaning behind the slogan (e.g. All Cops Are Bastards)

>>2297955
Everyone loves Sid Hatfield. Very uncontroversial position to love and admire Smilin' Sid

>>2297998
Trotskyists ARE MLs, the only point of difference is over which historical figures they gush over and even then that's largely irrelevant

Note: a lot of people talk theoretically about "under socialism, cops will be different", so I'd like to point to a relevant case study of a Mexican town that replaced the police force with a local militia after the corrupt politicians and police had enabled cartel violence.

>>2298002
Explain in 0 words or more how Stalinist (aka. "M-L") and Trotskyist schools differ in classifying present-day Marxist-Leninist states.

>>2297957
>>2297964
>>2297991
This is all. You can close the thread already. Anything after my post will be either superfluous or shitflinging

>>2298009
Both sides give present day "communist states" enthusiastic support, but Trotskyists do it with a performative display of gruff resignation, "critical support" as some call it. "Stalinists" meanwhile will just come right out and say "this is perfect, no notes, nothing can be improved upon here"

>>2297955
>>2297964
>>2297991
>>2298005
You’re not even supposed to have militias, much less police forces or militaries.

we will have cops, but they will be nice to you and stuff :)

>>2298024
You can’t just post links like that without some context.

>>2298059
This

As long as you have laws you will always need law enforcement. It's not that hard of a concept. I think America illustrated the separation of powers best:

>Legislative
Makes the laws
>Executive
Enforces the laws
>Judicial
Reviews the laws and enforcement

But yeas, as long as you have someone making laws, you will need someone to enforce those laws. I think it's an easy logic to understand.

>>2298021
>other communists don't exist because they are wrong
……

>>2297955
Let's see what Lenin says about the position of communists on the position of repression in the bourgeois state:

<In Russia at the present moment, when the Provisional Government, which is part and parcel of the capitalist class and enjoys the confidence—necessarily unstable—of the broad mass of the petty-bourgeois population, has undertaken to convene a Constituent Assembly, the immediate duty of the party of the proletariat is to fight for a political system which will best guarantee economic progress and the rights of the people in general, and make possible the least painful transition to socialism in particular.

<The party of the proletariat cannot rest content with a bourgeois parliamentary democratic republic, which throughout the world preserves and strives to perpetuate the monarchist instruments for the oppression of the masses, namely, the police, the standing army, and the privileged bureaucracy.

<The party fights for a more democratic workers’ and peasants’ republic, in which the police and the standing army will be abolished and replaced by the universally armed people, by a people’s militia; all officials will be not only elective, but also subject to recall at any time upon the demand of a majority of the electors; all officials, without exception, will be paid at a rate not exceeding the average wage of a competent worker; parliamentary representative institutions will be gradually replaced by Soviets of people’s representatives (from various classes and professions, or from various localities), functioning as both legislative and executive bodies.

(…)

<In the endeavour to achieve its immediate aims, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party supports every oppositional and revolutionary movement directed against the existing social and political set-up in Russia, but at the same time emphatically rejects all reformist projects involving any expansion or consolidation of the guardianship of the police and bureaucracy over the labouring masses.

<V. I. Lenin, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme, 4. Draft of Revised Programme, 1917.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

The state arises from the irreconcilable contradictions between those who own property and those who do not, for one class to oppress the other, and therefore, in order to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat in a revolution, the bourgeois state cannot be given any power to repress the workers due to the alienation it will have from the rest of society. Hence the need for its democratization and eventual dissolution so that the proletariat can suppress and oppress the exploiting classes until their extinction, with the end of private property when the proletariat becomes the new ruling class and exercises its political domination.

This means a workers' militia that serves only the rule of the proletariat together with a red army that will have the function of defending collective property and the abolition of private property against capitalists and their agents in order to maintain the economic sovereignty of the socialist state.

>>2298385
Separation of powers exists only to prevent the exploited classes from affecting the ruling class for some popular interest, so these obstacles to the supremacy of the proletariat will be eliminated.

>>2299559
<The party fights for a more democratic workers’ and peasants’ republic, in which the police and the standing army will be abolished and replaced by the universally armed people, by a people’s militia; all officials will be not only elective, but also subject to recall at any time upon the demand of a majority of the electors; all officials, without exception, will be paid at a rate not exceeding the average wage of a competent worker; parliamentary representative institutions will be gradually replaced by Soviets of people’s representatives (from various classes and professions, or from various localities), functioning as both legislative and executive bodies.
America did it first, but it didn't last long because it is a dumb idea.

Basically the non-retarded version of police abolition: Split it up into various specialist teams. The police are largely untrained gangs assigned thousands of responsibilities that they aren't equipped to handle, and it is unrealistic to expect one person to be trained to handle all of it.
Don't have the person whose job is to subdue violent criminals dealing with civilians having mental health issues or cats stuck in trees, or pulling people over. Don't give the Everything Department legal immunity for not doing their job correctly, etc…

>>2299562
What I have demonstrated to you is an example of how a revolutionary communist will act until the revolutionary situation arrives so that the popular councils (soviets) can marginalize and persecute landowners and capitalists, abolishing all institutions of the bourgeois state to exercise the dictatorship of the proletariat among workers, peasants and soldiers so that the proletariat becomes the new ruling class that will nationalize, socialize, occupy, collectivize and confiscate the enemy social classes to abolish private property, because it is not possible to carry out the revolution without weakening the bourgeois state for its abolition and then implementing proletarian democracy as a new state.

Your opinion is irrelevant because this is the role of the revolutionary socialist party of the working class which must always be independent of the bourgeoisie to exercise the political domination of the proletariat, this means not being tagtail of bourgeois parties and bourgeoisie following the line of socialist internationalism of cutting all influence of imperialist capitalism abroad without exception for everything even if you are demonized and this party has no chance of winning the election.

>>2297955
>I’m new to communism so I wanna know what are communist and socialist stance on the police system.
Marxist want a more extreme form of police and anarchists want a militia.

Policing will no longer be subject to division of labor under socialism, as anyone and really the community as a whole should enforce the law. If you object, you are a cuck who should kill themselves before anyone else has to.
>>2298010
The only reply worth reading, linked posts and all. The rest of you should be banned permanently.

crime will literally not exist under communism and everyone who pulls the "what about muh sociopath serial killers" is confirmed for having never read any true crime and thought critically about why serial killers and pedophiles even exist in the first place without relying on bourgeois psychiatric pseudoscience about how there must be some magical neurological causal explanation that we have absolutely zero proof of that explains why "psychopathy" exists

>>2299861
>No one will ever do crime anymore
Holy utopianism Batman!

>>2299861
uyghurs

>>2300974
Reported for Han Chauvinism.

>>2299842
Every communist revolution requires the formation of a popular militia to serve the working class and assume power. What do you think of the Red Guard and the Red Army? Marxists do not see the state as a neutral entity separate from the class struggle. This is what Marx criticized Lassalle for when he said that he had a servile superstition towards the state because reconciliation between the social classes of property-owning exploiters and propertyless exploited is impossible. From this we can see that the state is an instrument of one class to oppress another. Therefore, we must oppose any power given to the bourgeois state to repress workers and communists. In the dictatorship of the proletariat, revolutionary terror must be initiated so that all private property becomes collective, counterrevolutionaries are punished, and the threat of imperialist capitalist sabotage is prevented. The capitalist state defends private property and the domination of capital, while the socialist state defends collective property and the domination of the proletariat with the dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>2299861
trvthnvke, serial killers as a phenomenon didn't exist until the late 19th century

>>2301457
It will be though. Obviously there will still be some problems but we can make this world a paradise