The LA riots aren't the class revolution you're all hoping for. Like, seriously. It's not gonna lead to the total collapse of the USA's capitalist system and I doubt the government would even make concessions because of them.
There will be property damage, some people will get hurt, some arrests will be made, some new faces may emerge, but there won't be any major change out of this.
>>2311587its always the petit bourgeois who believe literally every little thing is some earth shattering event and then work it backwards by using enough leftoid buzzwords
>>2311612>it is an alliance of petit-bourgeois and lumpenlol ok. proletarian participation in protests does not mean that the protests themselves are proletarian in character regardless
>>2311595>Think dialecticallyshut the fuck up pseud holy shit
>>2311638>>2311641>>2311647lmfao
>>2311587<he said itWaow so brave.
Please return from where you came.
>>2311926Fucking this tbf
If you think that this or that movement isn't ideologically pvre enough well get out there and use the unrest as an opportunity to educate people
>>2311955>>2311957>why?problaby because they didn’t want to engage with theory that criticizes their side
>immigrant workersYeah the white 20 year olds tagging the mexican restaurant in the area and looting immigrant businesses? lmfao fucking numbskull
>>2311963Probably at least 3/4.
>>2311959>problaby because they didn’t want to engage with theory that criticizes their sideIt's not theory to simply declare them to be lumpens with no evidence other than the fact that they're brown. Accounts from the actual employers of these people say that their workers are terrified to show up for their jobs because of ICE raids. But here you are repeating the literal US state narrative that these people are "criminals".
>Yeah the white 20 year olds tagging the mexican restaurant <You can't be a worker if you engage in petty vandalism during a riott. Marx probably
>and looting immigrant businesses?<Muh small businesses!Certified rightoid pearl clutching. Immigrant business owners are class enemies of immigrant workers, just as they are class enemies of native workers.
>>2311971that's not my screenshot, dumbass
way to miss the point too
It’s not just about organized crime or spies. It’s criticizing an entire class of people who are disconnected from productive labor and living through grifting orcrime, people who won’t organize for class struggle and instead serve reactionary roles, often as tools of repression or chaos.
>>2311976whatever, you're all larping faggots and this shit won't go anywhere. Not helping immigrants of any kind.
enjoy your little 15 minutes of chaos where you get to feel like you're doing something
how's the blm movement by the way?😂
>>2311983>disconnected from productive labor and living through grifting orcrime, people who won’t organize for class struggle and instead serve reactionary roles, often as tools of repression or chaos.And your proof these protests are made up of this class is what exactly?
Also
>tools of repression<the targets of repression are tools of repression Predictable replies as always.
You do realize these same points have been raised against violent insurrections and revolutions involving millions right?
If you think communism and the struggle against capital begins and ends with pushing the "end capitalism" button you're not even close to getting it.
>>2311595Lucid take. This is far ahead in terms of being a coherent movement compared to BLM ("defund the police"), Occupy ("rich people bad") or the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle ("Globlism is bad")
>>2311926> the Democrats are trying to opportunistically taking advantage of the unrest And it's not like this hasn't happened in every attempted revolution, uprising, insurrection or riot for over a hundred years. There are always reformists who in moments like these, try to funnel agitation into the most placid electoral politics.
It's such a juvenile fucking stance. Utterly contrarian brained.
<We must always oppose what some members of the Democratic Party in the US supportGrow the fuck up
>>2311627>But the scripture says!Many of these "gutter-proletarians" made the revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and other places possible
>>2311982Unfortunately these people existed on /leftypol/ 10 years ago. And they existed offline over 100 years ago.
>>2312050The quote in
>>2311627 in isolation isn't even "theory" without further context. "X bad" doesn't become theory just because it was written a long time ago
>>2312056 (me)
And it's also irrelevant because nobody has offered any evidence whatsoever these protests are dominated by "lumpens"
>>2312052MMT is right about the basic mechanics of money creation, the problem is MMT-ers think printing money will magically solve everything, and ignore all the other true things economists through history have said about the nature of money.
>>2312054It's hard to say because the economy is a complex system. It's like trying to fuck around with the climate, no one knows what will actually happen because there are too many moving parts.
>>2312066It's retarded to assume action can exist in the abstract at all. It's a lib take. I.e; there exists some independent realm of "politics" where people make rational informed decisions based on theory and experts (or marxist "scripture") and this is where the "real work" gets done, as opposed to the ululating uneducated primal ape noises of the unorganized masses lashing out incoherently at everything because they're "uninformed".
Power is never neutral. Nor is action.
Do you also believe every illiterate former peasant who participated in the October revolution and the Russian civil war read capital in full?
Some "anarkiddie" out there running a soup kitchen or a 20s something retail worker who has never heard of Engels but nevertheless succeeded in unionizing his workplace, knows more about socialism than all those reading groups filled with nasal voiced "revolutionaries" who treat obscure tendencies and one hundred year old vendettas as identities, and tell everyone around them to "read theory", whilst never bothering to show up or do literally anything at all.
And yes, this is coming from someone who has read a lot of obscure theory, including from people over 99% of the world have never heard about >>2312264source? I know they come from the old palestinian muslim brotherhood and they fought fatah but I've actually never heard of them explicitly fighting communists
>>2312267marxist analysis still works for the palestinian society it just so happens that theory doesn't kill enough settlers
>>2312267If communism is a practical enough idea for Soviet peoples facing a brutal race war waged against them by the Germans then it is certainly practical enough for Palestinians right?
Besides this ignore that Islamists only played a heavy role after the 90's. Yes credit where its due Hamas excercised supreme discipline of its armed forces, but for decades the resistance was dominated by secularists and leftists before Jihad was reintegrated after the fall of the USSR
>>2311638>correctly identified these riots as a NATO color revolutionah yes, the famous adversary of NATO know as California
>>2312278> Hamas literally attacked movie cinemas in the 80's because its too western and is seen as degenerate since it allowed mixing of sexes<During the 1970s and 1980s, Israel supported Hamas, then known as the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, as a way to weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which was seen as a dominant force in Palestinian nationalism. This support involved tolerating and encouraging the growth of Islamic activists and groups within Gaza. Specifically, Israel supported Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, by allowing him to establish and operate a network of schools, mosques, and social clubs.
>>2312278I never said they didn't used to be conservative retards I said I've never heard of them attacking communist movements and currently are the main allies of palestinian communists
I haven't been proven wrong
>>2312289>for decades the resistance was dominated by secularists and leftistsyeah but they failed, also those organizations weren't really that interested in ensuring their members actually believed in leftists ideology thats why later jihadists like PIJ where formed by previous secular group members who got tired of the secular making fun of them for praying n shit
>>2312297I severely doubt that most americans have the opportunity of university.
Don't mistake your cushy position in life for others.
>>2312302??? PIJ and PFLP always recruited from fundametally two different types of community. The fact that some PFLP members later converted (reverted?) to Islamism isn't because the PFLP is incompetent (well, was), sometimes people just did that. There were Communists in the West also converted to shit like Traditional Catholicism or Buddhism or what have you, these things did happen occassionally.
And the Secularists didn't fail just bcause, they got assblasted for decades from Jordan to Algeria to Beirut before finally losing relevance after the great apocalypse that is the fall of the USSR, and their failure fundamentally stems more from their inability to crush Israel in its totality and was forced to make concessions which likely would be the same problem facing Hamas even after the Zionist genociders retreated from Gaza
>That there’s a riot, uprisings, or insurrection in Los Angeles is unsurprising, as the place has a history thereof, including famous examples in 1943, 1965, and 1992. In those cases, as in the most recent, they were responses to ethnic and class oppression.
>Nevertheless, I’m surprised by how immediate, elaborate, and definite the response has been to the latest spate of mass round-ups, detentions, and deportations performed by the Trump administration’s Department of Homeland Security. The city of Los Angeles seemed to rise spontaneously to try to stop these actions. The organizing must’ve taken place beforehand, because protesters managed to interrupt raids in real time. This sort of resistance is the only possible way to disrupt America’s current descent into police and military-backed racism, fascism, and a sort of delight in cruelty for its own sake: the systemic sadism of a Stephen Miller or a Kristi Noem. Meanwhile, just in case you wondered what’s driving their brutality, Miller and Noem are welcoming white people to the country.
>“Insurrection,” remarks Miller on X, evidently thinking that’s a devastating condemnation. But sometimes an insurrection is justified, and as the forms of domestic repression of dissent mutate and intensify, the forms of resistance dedicated to preserving people’s lives and well-being have to do the same. Any action short of violence directed at people’s bodies is morally sustainable in this case: trying to block and vandalize facilities, lighting and tossing fireworks, destroying ICE vehicles and property. These are mild responses to the violence perpetrated by people like Miller, very far from proportional. It’s turning out that a proportional response to the administration’s arbitrary brutality would have to amount to mustering a large and heavily-armed guerilla force.
>The Trump administration is calling out the National Guard, over the objections of California Gov. Gavin Newsom and Los Angeles mayor Karen Bass. It’s the first time since 1965 that a president has called out the Guard over the objections of the governor of the state where it’s to be deployed. But then, it was Lyndon Johnson sending in the troops in order to protect Civil Rights demonstrators, recognizably the ancestors of the people who are protesting in Los Angeles today, from the tender ministrations of “segregation forever!” Gov. George Wallace.
>Now the sadists and segregationists are running the country and the military is on their side, or at any rate under their command. Remarkably, Trump praised the Guard’s response to the riots before they arrived. It would be excellent if the whole deployment was a pure Trumpian fiction, but I fear it’s really happening.
>And the situation could grow much worse. Late Saturday, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth wrote on X, “The Department of Defense is mobilizing the National Guard IMMEDIATELY to support federal law enforcement in Los Angeles. And, if violence continues, active duty Marines at Camp Pendleton will also be mobilized—they are on high alert.”
>The idea that the administration is going to call out the Marines to repress largely non-violent protests represents yet another astonishing escalation. Suddenly a different sort of national future is emerging: a future in which the Constitution has been effectively suspended and the US is governed by a sort of military junta, a country descending into violence and civil war. We will pretty quickly have to find out whether American soldiers are willing to fire on American college students and grandmothers.
>And I do characterize the demonstrations so far as by and large non-violent, though two deputies were slightly injured by a Molotov cocktail on Saturday night. But this is more typical: “The Los Angeles Police Department said at midnight that it detained ‘multiple’ people who breached an area near the city’s Metropolitan Detention Center where the agency had declared an ‘unlawful assembly,’” reported the Post. “‘Those detained will be arrested and booked for failing to disperse,’ the force said on social media.”
>One thing I hope we can agree on: failing to disperse doesn’t itself constitute violence. But dispersing people with teargas, rubber bullets, clubs, and zip ties does. A typical report from the front lines Saturday night: “This Blackhawk moved in from the border patrol—they are unloading dozens of boxes of ammunition, less lethal weaponry. You see these tanks with flammable labels on the side—as if they were getting ready for a major battle.”
>A major battle, mind you, against Americans who are trying to protect people from violence. I’m happy to see that we’re still a country that produces people who want to do this or feel it’s morally necessary, even if we’re also still a country that produces the likes of Miller and Hegseth.https://www.splicetoday.com/politics-and-media/los-angeles-uprising-an-american-tradition >>2312302the commie made fun of me praying
therefore I turn full jihadist, wear your burqa habibi and make my dinner
<OK >>2312289Soviets were saved by decades of western investment in their economy, Nazis were hamstrung by sanctions which they had to use clever tricks like MEFO bills to circumvent.
The idea that reading Marx somehow saved the Soviets in WW2 is just laughably delusional.
>>2311587Of course not. But I still critically support them. They are on the right side of this conflict, and saying "erm, they're le cringe so I no like them" is the domestic version of bothsidesing Ukraine vs Russia or Palestine vs Israel.
>>2312046>Many of these "gutter-proletarians" made the revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and other places possibleSomething strange about Western MLs is that they treat Marx and Engels like they were goddamn religious figures, as opposed to political activists from the 1800s who wrote some books. Most successful socialist movements worldwide have diverged wildly from their works after testing their theories against reality.
>>2312468I don't understand what you're trying to say.
>>2312504I support who I support for practical reasons, not ideological ones. There's an energy here; these people are at least vaguely sympathetic to leftist ideas, and are willing to take action in a way that, until recently, has been unusual in the United States post-neoliberalism. The right move on our end is to try and direct this energy into something more organized, not to shit on it for not following the exact forecasts of books written over a century ago.
>>2312739
>Is it a misfortune that the wonderful California was wrested from the lazy Mexicans, who did not know what to do with it?… All impotent nations must, in the final analysis, be grateful to those who, obeying historical necessities, attach them to a great empire, thus allowing them participation in a historical development which would otherwise be unknown to them. It is self-evident that such a result could not be obtained without crushing some sweet little flowers. Without violence, nothing can be accomplished in history…
>…we have been spectators of the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced in it. It is progress that a country which, up till now, was concerned exclusively with itself, torn asunder by eternal civil wars and alien to any form of development…should have been propelled, through violence, to historical development. It is in the interest of its own development that it shall, in the future, be placed under the tutelage of the United States. It is in the interest of the whole of America that the United States, thanks to the conquest of California, should achieve mastery over the Pacific Ocean.Both quotes from Engels. Stop your moralism. Learn scientific socialism.
>>2312660>Go ask a strangerAnecdotal evidence is not evidence.
>>2312739Spooky!
>>2312806they shitpost about that on the interwebz then go out and counterprotest with zionists
they are just like daesh that claims to hate the jews so much but at the end of the day become their mercenaries
fascists support israel 1000% this is a fact
>>2312862>The majority of Americans are happy that the illegals are being deportedSource?
>I will never understand why leftists continue to take the wrong anti-worker and anti-communist position on immigration.Smells like reformism to me.
>>2312869>Source?Talking to real people in the real world, and presenting myself as a person who is not hostile to their politics so they tell me how they really feel.
>Smells like reformism to me.Explain why.
>>2312862>>2312869communists shouldn't care about mass deportation since is just a way to regulate migration just like more open migration policies
at the end of the day both possitions are lies to maintain the explotation of migrant workforces wich cannot be stopped under capitalism
>Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labor market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.3
>And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.
>This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organization. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.
Source - Karl Marx
Marx was anti-immigration. Not because of bigotry, or because he saw how it simultaneously harmed the working class standard of living, , increased intra-worker divisions and hatred, and greatly benefited the capitalist class both economically and politically.
>>2312918>>2312920he's gonna do it anyways you idiots
capitalism without a massive migrant army of reserve is not a historic reality you people are deluded by propaganda literally the lowest stage of consciousness possible
>>2312936thats not how ai development works under capitalism you retard, massive automatization has been possible for decades but it's been kept locked in non-productive areas because thats the only way to not cause a massive drop in the profit rates
the second they bring automatization to replace migrants fascists will hang ᴉuᴉlossnW style and we'll hang you tailists along them
>>2312941sorry but choking on zion-dons putrid cock doesn't sound like praxis to me
>>2312948ah yes the famous marxists principle of blindly believing what people say and never checking what they actually do
sorry to break your bubble but fascists and zionists are one and the same
>>2312953go check lmao, you say all this talk but you wont check, do it, go look on instagram and tell me what they think
and no, im not saying to love the orange man, but the working class is what put him there, and it isnt for the israel stuff
and very nice of you to threaten to kill me, totally expected from a delusional moron
These riots are NOT about ICE, they’re about keeping America in NATO.
For the past seven months the deep state has been trying to foment an American Years of Lead, identical to what happened in Italy and Jamaica in the 1970s. They want to see American society be plunged into political chaos, confusion and mass destruction. This will cause the Trump Administration to destabilize and will ensure the Democrats win big in 2028, hence America stays in NATO and the Malthusian abortion lobby is able to keep reducing the human population.
Several events that have happened over the past seven months, such as the killing of the healthcare CEO, the multiple assassination attempts on Trump, violent Palestine protests, the Tesla burnings, violent attacks on right-wing activists, Governor Shapiro’s mansion being arsoned, the murder of two Israeli embassy workers and now the mass riots against ICE in LA are all a part of this grander scheme. It’s all about using sporadic acts of political violence with the intent of destabilizing America, creating an environment of chaos and confusion and seeing Trump’s attempts at having America leave NATO crumble. We also see fighting within the ruling class, as Trump wants to privilege ICE while dismantling the FBI while the deep state wants to maintain the FBI but has little interest in ICE.
DON’T FALL FOR IT. We do NOT need sporadic political violence but a PEACEFUL TRANSITION to an anti-imperialist government. DO NOT GLORIFY THESE PRO-NATO RIOTS. Don’t be surprised if you see liberals showing up to these riots holding Ukrainian flags. That’s the main agenda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qda4JY36BBA [Open]
>>2312953you wont do anything btw
29 Orchard Avenue, Thames Ditton, Surrey, United Kingdom, KT7 0BB (2001 - Current)
>>2312884>the majority of people voted for trumpThe majority of people didn't vote.
>>2312887>Talking to real people in the real world.Your personal anecdotes are not a source.
>>2312895Statistics are by no means perfect, but they at the very least have the advantage of breadth. Your sample of ten people who all live in the same area and exist in close enough social circles to you that you know their opinion on the matter is going to necessarily be significantly more skewed than a survey of even just a hundred random people from across the country.
Beyond that, the two are not mutually exclusive. I talk to people in real life. The ones I know all support the protesters.
>>2312979
>being anti-immigration means you want to kill all non-whitesThis is the kind of disingenuous rhetoric that turns people away. Imagine telling a member of the working class, who has seen first-hand the brutal competition of the job market intensify due to immigration, that his concerns are dumb and that he is LITERALLY a genocider or something.
Internationalism is absolutely mandatory for working class liberation, but internationalism doesn't necessitate being on the pro-capitalist side of the immigration argument.
>>2313010>>2313009Once again, being against immigration (new people coming to the country) doesn't mean you want to kill non-whites. It doesn't mean you support the brutal oppression or even expulsion of existing immigrants.
Think about this logically. What is a union? It's a group of workers who decide to monopolize their commodity (labor) in order to extract more concessions from the working class. A union would be completely pointless if capitalists were simply allowed to replace the workers with other workers anytime without repercussions right?
Now apply that same logic to immigration. Being against immigration is a TACTIC, just like strikes and rallies. It increases upward wage pressure, hurts the profits of the capitalist class, and destabilizes the capitalist system
>>2311587>The LA riots aren't the class revolution you're all hoping for. Like, seriously. Considering there are now riots breaking out in Atlanta and a good chunk of these protests are spreading across American cities, there is certainly a chance this can escalate.
In comparisson to previous riots, I'd argue there is a greater degree of class consciousness, and rather than the previous George Floyd riots, the riots in LA are a lot more focused on the community of Latin Americans, African Diaspora as well as other immigrant groups who are bearing the brunt, not only that, but there are now two major enemies the masses have- Trump and ICE. Not only that, but there's already an established community self-defence org made of a coalition of forces.
The PSL and DSA and CPUSA being the chickenshit cowards they are can't contain the riots or control them, which will work both against them and for them- in the sense that the masses need an organisation with an ideological centre and a vision on how they organise.
>It's not gonna lead to the total collapse of the USA's capitalist system and I doubt the government would even make concessions because of them.Of course not. This riot alone won't culminate in the destruction of the USA, but if the people can gain actual municipal control, form a socialist aligned provisional gov (think Greek Partisans with the mountain government, Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, People's Republic of Korea) then something may come out of this.
>>2314133And so far it's been working.
This is a multi-ethnic uprising with a clear target that can build upon and comes with the hindsight of the George Floyd riots.
I'm putting my money on /sizzle/.
>>2314210>NATO shit in what schizo world do you live in when these rioters are backed by NATO?
>>2314209>it's just racial tensionsHow is a multi-racial coalition made of black people, latin americans, and other groups who have organised their communities and have united to fight ICE and the LAPD "racial tensions"?
>>2314202It might "work" for this guy and the Dems as well as their porky backers who are convinced that unlimited immigration solves all their problems (particularly those related to labour costs). Other than that (as far as i'm aware) there is no reasonably strong communist or socialist vanguard party in the US or even just halfway decent succdem opposition (like Bernie) right now who could lead the happenings to something.
Also, i'd be more optimistic for the burger comrades if the most unhinged neolib/neocon friends of the Dems over here wouldn't see the happenings as a chance to turn things around against their rival(s) in the White House.
>This is Trump's Californian opponent>The US Democrats have appeared headless since their presidential election defeat. But with the protests in Los Angeles, Gavin Newsom's hour has come. The president could unintentionally make him the leader of the opposition. Unique IPs: 70