Let me begin by saying that I’m a socialist myself, more specifically an anarcho-communist. That said, I always back to the same matter: the society we can create must be created within the constraints of human nature and material reality. The problem is, human nature is unknown. We do know humans have a tendency towards well-being, as most want socialist solutions to their problems. Yet if we judge humanity based on its history, it’s discouraging. The ongoing genocide in Gaza is an example of it. We must accept that under the right conditions, humans are capable of atrocities. Power relations seem to be intrinsic to humans, as it is a curse and self-preserving.
A socialist society can’t be rationally or scientifically justified. It is based on our desire for a better society. It is, then, a leap of faith. And there’s little reason to believe it’s possible besides our desire and pale observations
>>2361504and we will return back to that existance once climate change destroys human civilization.
In the end, humanity retvrns back to primitive communism
>>2361979And for that we can refer to history. Anarchist socialist achievements:
-Mahknoschvina
-Spanish revolution ‘36
and more
What have MLs achieved? Just state capitalism and a new elite with a stronghold on the State.
>>2361984Lmaaaooooooo
>Anarchist socialist achievements:>one territory run on banditry that lasted 3 (three) years and achieved absolutely nothing >one failed revolution in spain >and more (trust me bro we definitely achieved more stuff, I just can't list it right now)
>What have MLs achieved?-Had multiple historic revolutions that transformed the lives and livelihoods of literal hundreds of millions of people on a scale unseen in human history before or since
-developed technologically/economically backward territories into economic powerhouses that could rival the economic power of the highly developed capitalist states. Which lifted literal hundreds of millions of people out of third world level destitution
-Brought literacy, higher education and culture to the impoverished, destitute and illiterate masses
-Put up actual real resistance to imperialism and funded anti-imperialist causes around the world
-Defeated fascism and made hitler kill himself
-Built political institutions that last more than 1-3 years
-the list actually does go on
>>2362009
>but they don't claim anarchism or MarxismThen why are you bringing them up as examples of anarchist success?
>to dissociate themselves from larpersNo dude, it's because they are not anarchists and their political project is not based on anarchism. It's its own thing
>like how Marx said he wasn't a Marxist.It's not like that at all. It would be an analogous situation if Zapata said he was not a zapatist. Not when zapatists as a collective movement say they they are not anarchists
>>2362018
>but we should really be studying the Spanish anarchists to see how the proletariat organises and arms itself from the bottom.Lol we should really be studying how to achieve nothing and be crushed by nationalist fascists, that'll be useful!
How people still uphold anarchism is beyond me
>>2362045Rojava literally is based on Bookchin’s work. Zapatistas don’t call themselves anarchists due to indigenous traditions. In any case, what you call yourself doesn’t matter. Anarchist tendencies can be found all throughout history.
Sure! Russian soldiers were really happy dying for Stalin, who went into hiding in Moscow scared of getting clapped by his own men. Soviet Union wasn’t socialist but it benefited from being called that
>>2362083>RojavaYeah so talk about Rojava then, leave the Zapatistas out of it. You don't get to retroactively claim them for your movement because theoretically their praxis aligns with your thinking.
>Zapatistas don’t call themselves anarchists due to indigenous traditionsThey don't call themselves anarchists because they are literally not an anarchist movement and they are not based in anarchism. Some members of the EZLN are anarchists, maoists or whatever nativist ideological strain, but they are not, as an organization, an anarchist project
>In any case, what you call yourself doesn’t matterIt does matter because the vast majority of people don't just call themselves something for no reason, especially serious and collective political organizations
>Anarchist tendencies can be found all throughout historyAnything can be found in history if you retroactively apply modern concepts to it
>Sure! Russian soldiers were really happy dying for Stalin, who went into hiding in Moscow scared of getting clapped by his own men. Soviet Union wasn’t socialist but it benefited from being called thatDisgusting anticommunist sentiment that shows just how far removed from actual historical class analysis and how much of a revisionist you are. They weren't dying "for stalin" you fucking retard, they were dying at the hands of nazi fascists whose sole goal was to destroy the newly formed ussr and genocide the native slavic people of that region. They were fighting to prevent that from happening and no of course they weren't happy to fight on the front lines of pretty much the most gruesome conflict the world had seen up until that point and to this day, but that had nothing to do with your dumb liberal individualist personalization of le ebil stalin and how much of a "coward" he was or was not.
You are doing nazi revisionism because of your delusional hatred of the ussr and stalin, you fucking moron.
>>2362084That was done by Lenin years prior
>>2362085Because he wanted to distance himself from the modern anarchist pseudo-intellectuals who opposed mass movements. He was always an anarchist
>>2362098Workers lived like rats manufacturing military equipment. Even the Nazis were surprised. Whatever personal hatred or vengeance the soldiers felt, they were conscripted by force. Stalin was an tyrant
>>2362124>Workers lived like rats manufacturing military equipmentIT WAS WORLD WAR 2 YOU FUCKING RETARD. It was a literal all out war to the death with the explicit purpose of genociding the slavic people of eastern europe in the name of aryan racial supremacy
>Even the Nazis were surprised.Yeah cite more nazi revisionism, fucking scum
>Whatever personal hatred or vengeance the soldiers felt, they were conscripted by forceThey were fighting to prevent their own total destruction at the hands of racial supremacist genocidal fascists. You don't think the soviet union should have conscripted soldiers in ww2? You think they should have let the nazis loose on eastern europe and enact their lebensraum plan? ethnically cleanse and genocide the land from the racially impure untermensch? You are literally not a grain better than an actual nazi fascist. I mean that sincerely
>Stalin was an tyrantYour words mean nothing, you have already outed yourself as an anti-communist and a nazi apologist
>>2361378”Scientific” socialists citing anyone but scientists to answer scientific questions
>>2361975>Human nature is adaptation. Humans are unique because they can change their environment which changes their nature because nature depends on material conditions.All organisms adapt to their environment, can change their environment and are impacted by said changed environment in return. So that‘s not a unique trait of human beings, and that answer obviously wouldn‘t encapsulate all that characterizes humans.
>>2361371>We do know humans have a tendency towards well-being, Collective well beign is more or less a after thought.
We first have to create a true ethical community (
NOT PROTESTANT SHIT ETHIC)
only then can we even begin to concieve of a altruist society
>>2362235as much as protestant culture bores me and that I find it anti-social in many ways, Protestant work ethic is good.
It is not a coincidence that protestant European countries are the top guns in capitalism. It is not the only factor, but is ONE important factor.
>>2361371Ah yes Rojava the democratic socialist
STATE truley anarchism in practice
>>2361940Says the one who thinks a classless stateless society can be achieved inside a capitalist world.
Literally all anarchist revolutions were proven to be dogshit compare to the statist ones.
Even Mao understood this which is why he disregarded anarchism as utopian.
Yet again you continue to believe blindly that a anarchis society let alone a revolution is possible in the current conditions and overnight.
Your the ebodiment of sound logic friend
>>2361984>And for that we can refer to history. Anarchist socialist achievements: -Mahknoschvina
-Spanish revolution ‘36
and more
All your exemples are failed revolutions.
>What have MLs achieved? Just state capitalism and a new elite with a stronghold on the State.Shit on good old Lenin how much you like anarkitty but he was the first one to actually bring upon a practical socialist revolution that materialized unlike the anarchist ones who were just idealised proto-terorist states.
>>2362252Protestant work ethic does not exist only among the exploiters but among the exploited as well.
The German working class is definitely more disciplined, more organised than most Non-protestant ones. That may be a stereotype, but it is true.
>>2362018>Yeah, what we can learn from ML revolutions is how to carry out bourgeois revolutions, anti-imperialism and central planning, but we should really be studying the Spanish anarchists to see how the proletariat organises and arms itself from the bottom.The only thing that they acchieve was getting raped side ways.
How about we take what wroked from Lenin and Mao and solve the past problems with the curent technologies we have now but nooo!
Lets mimic the bandit groups of the early 19th century that became irrelevent faster than internet memes
>>2362325Makhno's Platformism isn't awful, in theory it works the same as Autonomism.
>>2362326Name some? I either want to furiously argue with you, or join you in cursing it's existence depending in what you name
>>2362327>soviet unionnot ML since that was created after the USSR had even been established, it was a communist revolution with multiple ideologies present with only the leninist wing winning
>germanythere was no communist revolution in germany, it was exported from the ussr
>poland, czechoslovakia, romania and the DPRKsame as above
>laoskind of i guess?
>kampucheawhich one are you talking about? the genocidal one or the vietnamese supported one?
>nicaraguaabout the only one you could plausibly say was an ML revolution
>>2362331people like lukacs and althusser and that sort of type of slop, and also a bunch of middling dogshit from people like varoufakis
>>2362332genuinely poor argument, get a better one next time
You need to organize your socialist movement. And the solution is the Second Generation Memetic Warfare.
SECOND GENERATION MEMETIC WARFARE
https://pastebin.com/5w7FaDny1. Copy this text (on pastebin);
2. Send to an AI;
3. Ask questions about the future and the past;
4. Make political strategies based on this.
This is a new form of Memetic Warfare, created by a Brazilian (
https://medium.com/@cadaverminimal/list/a-harmonia-da-dissonancia-e6396f5d5563)
>>2362357>you can both be bombed to shit and also have genocide deathsYeah but it was probably moreso the unprecedentedly harsh bombing campaign that lasted almost a decade, rather than an imaginary genocide campaign. Here's a lil chatgpt excerpt:
Peak Bombing Rate (1969–1973, especially Operation Menu/Operation Freedom Deal)
1969–1970 (Operation Menu, secret B-52 strikes): ~110,000 tons/year.
1973 (most intense year): 257,456 tons in just 6 months (Jan–Aug).
Avg. per month (1973): ~42,900 tons
Avg. per day (1973): ~1,400 tons (some days saw 4,000+ tons)
Total Cambodia bombing (2.76M tons) ≈ 184 Hiroshima bombs in TNT energy (but spread over 9 years).
1973 peak (257K tons in 6 months) ≈ 17 Hiroshima equivalents (but again, spread over time)
The U.S. dropped ~1,000 lbs of bombs for every Cambodian citizen (2.76M tons ÷ 7M people).
In 1973, the U.S. dropped ~5x more bombs per month on Cambodia than in the entire 1991 Gulf War.
idk, maybe, just maybe this was the deciding factor in the demise of cambodians at the time and not whatever PolPot did, regardless of the Khmer Rouge's very obviously horrible excesses.
>there are actual museums in cambodiaDamn bro, I didn't know the cambodian government made museums, well that changes everything.
>autogenocidecmon man, that's just conceptually retarded
>the vietnameseYeaaah, those totally unbiased vietnamese, who would tell only the truth, the full truth and nothing but the truth about their political rivals
>>2362367Hmmm mensheviks and SRs… didn't something happen to those guys? Like, there was some kind of civil war or something where they decided to back some kind of reactionary thing… The White something?
Oh Yeeeeaah, they decided to fight against the communists and their revolution, alongside all the libs and aristocrats and then they lost and all got killed
>>2362319You are actually stupid and have never read a book, wow.
>Protestant work ethic is not synonymous with 'working hard and dilligently'
>does not exist only among the exploiters but among the exploited as well.what do you want to say?
>The German working class is definitely more disciplined, more organised what a moronic statement.
>than most Non-protestant ones.german christians are roughly split 50/50 between catholics and protestants. slightly more catholics btw. the area industrialisation started in in germany, rhine ruhr area and 'Bergisches Land' (the region where Friedrich Engels was born) have historically more catholics.
stop watching alt history youtube channels.
>>2362488I didn't use chatgpt as an argument, I just used it to list some statistics. You can just look it up the old fashioned way if you want, it's still correct
>the genocide is not imaginary just because some retards who know nothing about it use it as a "epic own"Who's talking about epic owns? Seems like you're projecting. Did the prolonged, unprecedented in scale US bombing campaign have a major impact on the events that followed it yes or no? Would those events have transpired the way they did yes or no? Might they have for instance caused massive food instability, destroyed infrastructure and a huge refugee problem? All of which culminated in the deaths of millions of people?
>did vietnam fake every singular element? did they fake every testimony?did I say the Khmer Rouge did not commit atrocities? Did I not say they had very obvious and horrific excesses?
That doesn't make it "autogenocide" lmao
>>2362567you are using the horrific terror bombing campaign as a way of saying "no the angkar didn't commit massacres on their own civilians, which functionally amounted to genocide", which is cowardly
>>2362592unless you're talking about the january insurrection in 1919 then there was no communist revolution in germany
>>2362618Im not saying there were no massacres/atrocities/excesses, but it did not amount to genocide no as there is no evidence of intent to suicide/exterminate their own population, I reject the concept of autogenocide yes
How is it cowardly?
>>2362665Im not lying by omission, we all know bout the killing fields n all that. But I do have questions around the official narrative, many things about that time in Cambodia remain ambiguous, it's not like the recordkeeping was too great at the time given well you know everything that had transpired in the last 20 years and the Vietnamese had their own political goals and interests that influenced their framing. There is in my opinion, decent reason to believe a lot of the excess death of the time was out of PolPot's hands, which is easy to see when you look at the extend of what that country went to at the hands of the US. I am simply wary of perpetuating genocide mythmaking and im sorry as horrific as the events in cambodia were I don't think it meets the qualifications of genocide. Nor do I think autogenocide as a term even makes sense or is meaningful, it's just a political tool
But it's not like I think it's a very important issue like that it "helps communism" for us all to vindicate the Khmer Rouge or something lmao and I dont think it is necessary to discuss it openly and brazenly, but this is an anonymous massage board. I can express my concerns with the genocide framing, it wouldn't be the first false accusation of genocide thrown a communists way
>>2362731Ehh I think the fascist label is about as meaningful as the genocide label. It doesn't really address what led the KR to become the way they did and do the things they did. Namely, the conditions imposed by the US terror bombing campaign. Plus the general fracturing of the communist movement with the sino soviet split.
The situation is too complicated for labels like anti communist, I will give you that. But I find your pearl clutching about this a bit odd. It's not like it's that crazy of a take. Noam Chomsky was cancelled for this kind of thing like and he's like the most run of the mill leftist you can think of
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