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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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Which one are you?

- To what degree is it ok to lie to fellow workers in order to make socialism more appealing to them?
- What are the benefits and risks of doing so?
- How much theoretical knowledge do you have?
- Can you convey it without using wanky words like "class", "state", "proletariat" and "capital"?

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch04.htm

>The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

how many more threads of "communism is a debate club to convince le "masses" do we need

>>2361670
>To what degree is it ok to lie to fellow workers in order to make socialism more appealing to them?
Lie to them about what? That socialist govs and figures make/made mistakes? Those are nothing compared to the damage caused by capitalism. The idea isn't to just present a reality- it's to sell them on an idea. If a worker starts saying uninformed stuff, come prepared to ask him questions via socratic reasoning- i.e question him and then follow through by backing your statement with facts.

>What are the benefits and risks of doing so?

Depends on the workers and where they are. If you're talking to a bunch of MAGA-loving working class people, a good chunk of them have already been lost to the cult. The best you can do is just challenge them in front of their friends and co-workers and show them for the snake-oil purchasers/ salesmen they are.

>How much theoretical knowledge do you have?

We can talk Marx, Lenin, Malatesta, Mao, Fanon, Kropotkin, Bookchin, Ocalan, Makhno or even fuckin' Stirner. Arguing academics with workers- particularly in america who on average have a 6th grade reading level- is often a folly. Probe them on how much they know or don't before discussing theory. Again, lead with the idea, and the analysis.
While theory is great, I often find that using data, actual facts, is what often emboldens folks to understand how fucked the situation is. Thing is, most workers know they're getting fucked over so you're preaching to the choir, the problem is they think that by vootin' in the right person will lessen their woes.

>Can you convey it without using wanky words like "class", "state", "proletariat" and "capital"?

>Class
Sure just use words like workers, bosses, ceos etc.
>State
State's fine, you could use government and add a prefix before it i.e to take a page out of friendly jordies book "the liberal government"
>Proleteriat
Workers
>Capital
While we can't necessarily define this as money, you can still talk about how workers don't have a say in our jobs. If we put it together, You can often say "our bosses control our work lives and wages, they own the tools despite us using them and even though we do more work, we get sweet nothing of wages while he gets it all despite doing little of the work."

>The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

This was written before a time of massive COINTELPRO, cold war propaganda, nazism, McCarthyism and well before the creation of the Paris Commune. Sometimes, you have to be subtle with your aims lest you get into stamping and shouting slogans which no one understands. Even popular socialist parties have arguably been reduced to watering down their rhetoric and demands- prime example is the response of the violent riots and killing of Israeli ambassadors. I get they don't want to be cracked down and saying such stuff is dumb, but there is a time and place for this rhetoric, and it isn't 24/7.

>>2361730
>"ok but 30 gorillion tho"

how do you not conceal your views when most people see communism as a mass murdering ideology?

File: 1751262213605.mp4 (13.36 MB, 640x360, belden.mp4)


>>2361730
Marxism was a niche footnote until Lenin's crew brought it into the mainstream. So I'm not taking Marx's advice.

>>2361792
>communism is a debate club
Literally (literally) the opposite of its message, but whatever champ.

>we must lie to the stupid workers to make them believe in something against their interests
self-report?
>>2362000
>the stupid workers must be lied to so that us intellectuals may rule over them in order that they dont actually achieve what is in their class interest
<marx must be discarded since he preferred the truth to manipulative lies
MLs on a normal one today lol

>>2361876
>i am smart, the public is dumb
right.

>>2362133
Not quite. We may need to avoid the whole truth because most don't have the time or give-a-fuck to have Das Kap narrated to them.

>>2362136
>ive never read election results
can't blame you tbqhfam

>>2361670
Slide thread. Belongs on /siberia/ at best.
Sage and report.

>>2361730
There are no tactics that transcend all material circumstances. You can‘t be fully honest to workers this day and age. Not because the truth is so horrible but because capitalists indoctrinated everyone into a twisted framing of historic precedent that Marx didn‘t even have to contend with in his time. If people respond with programmed reflexive arguments that terminate all deeper inquiry then you must lie to them. Not because they are so stupid but because they are more heavily afflicted by indoctrination. You are actually helping them by lying to them.

>>2362133
><marx must be discarded since he preferred the truth to manipulative lies
This but unironically. If someone manages to develop and lead a communist revolution by oversimplifying Marx to the point of being inaccurate, in order to successfully appeal to the workers of a state, then they have changed the world more than Marx did in their lifetime. And, as Marx would say, that's the fuckin point of it all.

If being correct was good enough, we'd have already won.

>>2362167
<actual realistic discussion about organizing the workers? BAWWW!
"no."

>>2362172
>organizing the workers
lol op is talking about trying to convince people without communism in their class interests

>>2362170
>If being correct was good enough, we'd have already won.
yeah but then you go on and arrive at an even more retarded conclusion, that le masses must be convinced of communism

>>2362174
Having talked at the pub with many construction workers last May Day, I suspect that communism is in their class interest.

>>2362175
A major section of the masses must trust the vanguard party, if that's your way forward. You don't just seize the state and flip the islamic gommunism switch either.
If anything, OP pic is agreeing: the masses don't need to be convinced of communism. They just need to tolerate it.

>>2362172
i doubt you have ever successful organised a pissup in a wetherspoons.
You can go back wherever you came from instead of spamming here pretending to be a organised leftist now.

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File: 1751287417828-1.png (1.79 MB, 1000x714, ClipboardImage.png)

Lying to workers leads to the collapse of socialism because lies create expectations that can't be lived up to.

>>2362189
I'm on my org's planning committee, local branch has over 50 members, but hey, keep bumping my thread comrade. If you have no experience to share, then that's the least you can do to help.

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>>2362163
you are imsgining that most "marxists" have even read marx. the pretension of superiority begins pre-theoretically thus. it is contradictory in the same way, since you are apparently championing workers by betraying their honesty. and as far as it concerns reading capital, marx says that it is his biggest concern that workers read it directly:
>I applaud your idea of publishing the translation of “Das Kapital” as a serial. In this form the book will be more accessible to the working class, a consideration which to me outweighs everything else.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p2.htm
and according to engels, capital is a working class book:
>“Das Kapital” is often called, on the Continent, “the Bible of the working class.”
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p6.htm
so is marx too smart for the dumb proles?
>>2362165
socialism is never on the ballot, so you are judging workers for bourgeois frivolity. again, you are just a narcissist divorced from the worker's struggle.

>>2362215
>so is marx too smart for the dumb proles?
Well, you assert that most "marxists" have never read Marx, and those are the people who care enough about Marx to sexually identify as a Marxist. I don't know about "too smart", but certainly too much detail for most.
Want to get depressed? Go to my city's May Day and ask workers why they're there. Most common answer among the biggest unions is "a free day off work", an absurd number of them couldn't even recognize the two main candidates in an upcoming federal election. So unless someone is showing real interest, and there are plenty who do, but unless they do then you have to oversimplify.

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>>2362215
Have you ever met any workers?

>>2362227
you make it sound like educating the masses could be core aim of socialism. dunno. maybe margs wrote something about it

>>2361897
ngl burger education so ass rn that a surprising amt of ppl only know abt shit like that through pop culture and memes, imho only APUSA/IB mfers get an in depth distorted version of the 20th cent taught to them, everyone else was too busy goofing off and the history teacher to overworked and overextended to get a group of 30 highschoolers to really internalize the 30 gorillion no food meme to the same extent it was internalized by previous generations. we literally had a mock class debate on Mao that I imagine was set up in such way that we would all condemn Mao but instead it completely backfired with a little over half the room shouting down the anti-Mao and the activity ending early.

>t.zoomer who went to HS in the late 2010s

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>>2362233
and what are you, a non-worker? a superior being?
>>2362227
>you assert that most "marxists" have never read Marx
yes. even most academic marxists have never read marx. "marx" is a signifier without a signified; a semantic void that people project their desires onto. thats why people say to "read marx" yet they never give you a book or a chapter, since "marx" is supposed to sum everything up, yet in himself, he signifies nothing - unless you actually cite marx, at which point he can be given particularity, and thus either be agreed with or disagreed with.
> I don't know about "too smart", but certainly too much detail for most.
yes, because marx often mistakes quantity for quality; quite ironic considering his dialectical approach.
>you have to oversimplify.
whats wrong with that? more people would have read marx if he had an editor. simplifying concepts also shows one's comprehension, rather than any substitutory circumlocution, like i see on this site. big words are not acceptable replacements for big ideas.

>>2362428
Off the top of my head
Wage Labour and Capital
Capital volumes 1, 2 and 3
The Critique of the Golgotha Program
The Grundwisse

Probably the required reading list.

>>2362454
If you read Capital, is it even necessary to read Grundrisse?

>>2362509
not at all. grundrisse confuses economic analysis with irrelevant hegelian jargon. a contribution to the critique of political economy is also a mess (which marx innthe 1867 preface, says is summed up in the first 3 chapters of capital vol. 1). only the preface of the contribution.is remembered since it introduces the notion of base and superstructure (which marx in capital vol. 1, chapter 1, section 4 gives notion to in different terms; as "reflexive" or a secondary phenomenon, such as religion being a "reflex" of the real world).
>>2362454
>doesnt even recommend the memefesto

>>2362509
yeah i think so. it clarifies a lot about marx's method and thought process, which isnt just "marxological" shit, it helps in interpreting capital.

>>2362552
>grundrisse (complicated nonsense; not even a book - just random notes) helps interpret capital (straightforward and finalised economic textbook).
academic larper 😂

>>2362001
that's what the guy you're responding to is saying you nonce


>>2362709
lenin is not "marxism-leninism"

communists must hide their views, pretend to be social democrats and obtain state power through elections, that way communism will definitely be achieved! 😁

>>2361670

have any of you actually worked a public facing job with alotta interaction like a lot of service sectors jobs? Your just gonna have to handle that shit on a person by person basis, read the room,listen more than yap and meet people where there at. the answers to OPs question will greatly differ between different people and it's impossible to make a single answer for the entire working class(literally the vast majority of the global population). Also tbh the history of various socialist projects is far from boring and regaling the populace of tales showing the successes and failures of past projects isn't as boring to the general populace as one might think it is. I for one like explaining to people various left wing splits(like leninist vanguardism vs mahknovist horizontalism) to see what random ass workers with no exposure to chronically online left wing infighting have to say about the matter.

Not even to mention actions speak much louder than words you could say whatever the fuck but if your org is actually providing tangible results like social services(ex:free breakfasts) and special bodies of armed men(Red Guards) that will win ppl over more than a silver tongue.

>>2362830
He certainly wasn't an ML because the fundamental arguments which are contained within the leftist apologetics of real socialism didn't exist yet (not necessarily talking about deaths counts, but rather, apologetics of real socialism's bourgeois economy and the wrong theoretical arguments of its doctrinaires regarding the heap of questions which got introduced retroactively with the death of Marx and Engels, such as the national question, peasant question, etc. etc.).

Nevertheless, he aided modern MLs in such a way that it would be hard to imagine whaz their doctrine would be like today, hadn't Lenin written some things.

one interesting article I recently read about this is Gegenstandpunkt's (or the MSZ's?) article on the national question: https://ruthlesscriticism.com/nationalismworkersmovement.htm

>>2362133
obsessed

>>2362844
This but unironiquely. Enter, abuse your powers to bolster the actual communist projects while pretending to be a harmless centrist, and weaken the state.
It's called "sabotage" and it's a proven technique.

>>2362995
>have any of you actually worked a public facing job with alotta interaction like a lot of service sectors jobs?
Personally, I worked warehouses and packing jobs until I finally got a foot in the programming door, so I've had the privilege of never dealing with more than a dozen people at a job. Your perspective is insightful and I'm glad you shared it with us comrade.
>I for one like explaining to people various left wing splits(like leninist vanguardism vs mahknovist horizontalism) to see what random ass workers with no exposure to chronically online left wing infighting have to say about the matter.
lol what do they say? Even Lenin and many others in the 1903 RSDLP split were saying "bro this is a fukkin stupid split" for a while

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>>2363415
>1903 RSDLP split

>>2361670
You should have 0 shame in lying and grooming. All matters of manipulation are valid and viable. The world is hell, feel no remorse about playing it.

>>2363412
>obtain state power through elections
youre a literal radlib


>>2363461
>posts a politician with a program indistinct from your average european socdem but hes actually le based because its from latinx americx
this gringo sure showed me

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>not addressing the point, just making up goalposts to get mad at

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>>2362830
ok but you should still go read or listen to that collection which contains many of his writings instead of using some ideological technicality as an excuse to be dismissive. just skip the stalin if stalin bothers you that much. but I think stalin is wroth reading. incidentally I also think trotsky is worth reading. and mao. and chen duxiu and eugene debs and daniel deleon and…. you get the picture.

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>>2361897
>how do you not conceal your views when most people see communism as a mass murdering ideology?
the gazelle fears the lion

>>2363683
Lol and based diagram. So true. I'm on red to Black. I ain't ever Black or so I will ever tell anyone of course.

>>2363686
Settle out of court if you can.

>>2362454
people really should also read the economic and philosophical manuscripts from 1844 as well even if the ideas are not as fleshed out but it's a short text and offers a lot of insight in marx's analysis

File: 1751360169529.jpg (188.93 KB, 1000x821, crossroads.jpg)

The problem no communist has been able to solve is the crossroad between wage abolition and wage gains. External forces in the 20th like peasants forced proletarian-aligned revolutions that promised industrialization, but in the end they were just like the liberal revolution of the 19th century with a new coat of paint. This is the biggest problem of post-capitalists, cause it is truly a crossroad. No path leads to the other.

>>2363736
And I'm saying it's very difficult for workers in the 21st century to believe in wage abolition. And you see this in "the west" and in "global south". Capitalism is very entrenched. You even see it here, when people only imagine wage abolition after a giant collapse, which may be the thing that will force it. But I don't know.

>>2363728
>>2362454
The 1844 manuscripts are valuable but really hard to read if you're not already acquainted with Hegel, there's opaque jargon everywhere. I think the first chapter of the German Ideology which lays out the materialist conception of history is a better choice for someone that wants to read "Young Marx". I'd kick out the Grundrisse too, and honestly Capital Vols 2 and 3 until you've read Marx's other works.

There's a criminal lack of Engels in that list. I know certain academics like to claim he was an "Engelsist" falsifier of Marx, but they're full of crap. Ludwig Feuerbach sums up Marx and Engels 1840s writings while being mercifully free of Hegelian jargon - follow that up with Anti-Duhring, which starts by fully fleshing out their views on philosophy before entering into one of the most in-depth discussions of what a socialist society would look like (for real, I'm shocked everyone goes back to the Gotha Critique and ignores this one.)

for investors to get what they spend, workers must spend what they get. if they weren't making money from you and outrunning any money they give you they wouldn't do investment. keeping you poor, making sure you don't get to make any decisions about the place you live and work, and stealing from you is how the rich stay rich.

Shouldn't need any fancy words IMO

>>2364030
i have plenty theoretical knowledge, but the whole point of theoretical knowledge is to form an intuition that you can then apply meaningfully for your worldly circumstances.

>>2363415
I worked a warehouse adjacent job and not dealing with customers made the summer heat a lil more bearable lol. I don't think I've ever exlained the 1903 split to anyone but I often end up explaining the controversy in the first international between DoTP and immediately abolishing the state and I would say most people find immediately abolishing the state to be unrealistic and undesirable while also having many reservations about how they would like a DoTP to function. Like One Party States are honestly a harder sale with USians than Maoist landlord purges, Nationalizing amazon and walmart at the barrel of a gun and strict ass PRC style anti-capital flight laws. The Sino-Soviet split is the one where ppl are like "this is just fucking dumb" after I explain the whole revisionism vs. dogmatism thing and some shit abt Stalin glazing the KMT and Mao shittalking Khruschev.

there's no need to lie to a worker
the philosophy works out.
let them choose what they want to choose

If a worker says
>I don't believe that violence can build a new society
remind them that capitalism is 80% more violent than any communist society, that many preventable deaths including the death of the earth is caused by capitalism;

even if they don't care, that's on them; the bolsheviks still were able to cause a revolution; its really up to you.

>>2364668
>Like One Party States are honestly a harder sale with USians than Maoist landlord purges, Nationalizing amazon and walmart at the barrel of a gun and strict ass PRC style anti-capital flight laws.
Yeah the single-party thing is not going to fly here. We need at least two choices. They can be the same thing, but just give us the option.

Neither I'm "Not my problem" guy.
If it isn't socialist I do not care.
Womens rights are being taken?
Not my problem.
Blacks are being killed?
Not my problem.
LGBT rights are heading back to the 50s?
Not my problem.
The white demographics are declining?
Not my problem.
Crime is bad?
Shut up uyghur.
If it isn't socialist I do not care.


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