/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2368075
Liberal democracy you retard. Democracy as is has existed since ancient times, specifically Greece.

why do you care about socialism if you're not interested in the everyday involvement of workers in the decision making of society?

>>2368100
>>2368109
>erm democracy is actually some eternal truth of the universe
nothing but big brain boys on leftypol dot org :)

>>2368109
Motherfucker my life is already hard enough doing the god damn labor, I’m not going to meetings every day to decide where the steel I produce goes or what it gets used for

>>2368122
Use your brain, no one said that.

>>2368130
hope u get paid for this bro

>>2368132
I want decisions made on my behalf, there’s way too much shit to do for democracy

>>2368075
this is bourgeois democracy which is equivalent to classical aristocracy.

Democracy is direct rule by the people i.e. dictatorship of the proletariat

>>2368075
The problem with liberal democracy is that it lacks democracy and just keeps the guise as a form of control.

>>2368166
>it's not REAL democracy
The problem is that it is democracy.

>>2368075
ignored the difference between bourgeois and proletarian democracy award

>>2368178
>It is ridiculous to think that Mr. Kautsky could find in any country even one out of a thousand of well-informed workers or farm labourers who would have any doubts as to the reply. Instinctively, from hearing fragments of admissions of the truth in the bourgeois press, the workers of the whole world sympathise with the Soviet Republic precisely because they regard it as a proletarian democracy, a democracy for the poor, and not a democracy for the rich that every bourgeois democracy, even the best, actually is.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/democracy.htm
SURELY LENIN WAS ONLY SPEAKING METAPHORICALLY

SURELY LENIN REJECTED DEMOCRACY AND DIDN'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THERE WAS ANY SUCH THING AS PROLETARIAN DEMOCRACY

>>2368075
>the ideal of
Stopped reading there

>>2368122
>shit nobody said

>>2368130
>>2368137
>under socialism my labor conditions would be exactly as shitty as under capitalism
Gonna repeat sabocat's question, why do you want socialism if you obviously don't expect anything out of it

>noooo I'm too busy to just vote on something under socialism because I'm currently busy under capitalism

Use your head and parse what's wrong with your reasoning here.

>>2368075
Holy shit you people use ML as such a meaningless buzzword. Which MLs are quotemining Lenin to defend bourgeoise democracy? Is this a specific ML tendency you're mad at? A specific figure or party? Of course it's not, it's some shit shallow impression you got from a meme on reddit or you saw some self-identified ML doing it on twitter. But let's pretend like it represents the entirety of MLism and that attacking something MLs are already against is some slam dunk for leftcomism. For theorycels who claim to read the classics as often as you guys do it sure doesn't show.

>>2368186
>>the ideal of
>Stopped reading there
It's exactly criticizing its concept as an ideal you mouthbreathing retard.

>>2368234
>whines about the use of MLs as a buzzword
<brings up "leftcomism" when nothing remotely points to it
Lol, I don't care about your ideology shopping.

>>2368242
>ideology shopping
I wonder why I'm bringing up left communism when you're using /r/ultraleft lingo lmao. Anyone who browses that place can spot these threads, it's obvious a very specific kind of online poster with a very specific tendency is making them. Completely unlike you guys constantly making up shit to get mad at vaguely conceived "MLs" for.

You guys are easily one of the worst examples of ideology shopping on the internet too. You "follow" (by reading and posting) an ultra sectarian tendency that has never been relevant and that you found because of memes. No basic difference between that and shopping for your ideology in a Hearts of Iron mod.

>>2368242
baselessly criticizing MLs with theoretically and historically illiterate arguments is exactly what defines 'leftcomism'

>>2368242
Made for bbc

>>2368137
*glug glug glug glug*

i think we need to talk about the fact that there are OBVIOUSLY a lot of people who post here who are CLEARLY being outright paid to act as online trolls to derail the left

>>2368100
Le grand slaver democracy in Athens amiright?

> Its elections, freedoms and rights don’t oppose capitalism
yeah that's the whole point of it

"It is natural for a liberal to speak of "democracy" in general; but a Marxist will never forget to ask: "for what class?" Everyone knows, for instance (and Kautsky the "historian" knows it too), that rebellions, or even strong ferment, among the slaves in ancient times at once revealed the fact that the ancient state was essentially a dictatorship of the slave owners. Did this dictatorship abolish democracy among, and for, the slave owners? Everybody knows that it did not. Kautsky the "Marxist" made this monstrously absurd and untrue statement because he "forgot" the class struggle…."
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

This retardation is what ultras are dichotomizing with "democracy" by the way. Half of the reason a Bordigist will never plainly tell you what he stands for is that that they enjoy confusing people and feeling like they're too radical to fit cleanly into anyone's paradigm. The other half is that large parts of Bordiga are obviously revisionist or illogical and most of these people can't defend them effectively in open debate.

>>2368312
>truth emerges, not decided
>theory develops organically
I dont know what Bordiga was doing in Europe. He belonged on the banks of the Ganges . Man was a mystic.

>>2368312
That pic is a highly simplified outline of organic centralism. But regardless, what do you have against it?

>>2368350
>truth emerges, not decided
>theory develops organically
That's how science works. Mysticism is the shit that Mao or Stalin wrote. And when leftoids use the word "dialectics" like a magic spell.

>>2368249
The Soviet Union, after the defeat of the revolution in the 1920s, went on to support electoralism in the West instead of revolution.

>>2368250
>>2368234
>>2368260
So MLs are anti-democracy? Is that what you're saying?

>>2368542
Debate and discussion does exist within the party. Think about how science works. Do scientists sit in a single room, debate, and then vote and decide which scientific is now the real truth?

>How is doctrine remaining unchanged compatible with truth "emerging" and "developing"? And how is invariance compatible with Bordiga's revision of Lenin on the national question and party organization?

The national question was not revised. Lenin was pro-nationalism only as far as it encouraged the development of capitalism, Usually the colonial elite were holding back the development of capitalism and the native bourgeoisie was opposed to that. This state of affairs is no longer relevant after decolonisation. That's not revisionism, that's applying the exact same doctrine to the current situation. Revisionism would be something like "socialism in one country" or "collabarating with all classes to harmoniously develop the productive forces" and shit like that.

>>2368454
How does truth "emerge" and "develop organically" if there is no mechanism for debating it within the party? Does it descend from the sky? Is it magically self-evident in exactly the same way to every member of the party? How?

How is doctrine remaining unchanged compatible with truth "emerging" and "developing"? And how is invariance compatible with that or with Bordiga's revision of Lenin on the national question, electoralism and party organization?

If we test it by its results out of power, which is the only data we're ever going to have to test it against, it also just obviously doesn't work in terms of preventing factionalism and splitting. Bordigism has splintered into a bunch of different sects just like any other minor sectarian current.

>>2368559

see >>2368557

>If we test it by its results out of power, which is the only data we're ever going to have to test it against, it also just obviously doesn't work in terms of preventing factionalism and splitting. Bordigism has splintered into a bunch of different sects just like any other minor sectarian current.

It has worked fantastically by being the only real communist party on the planet that maintains the correct and scientific communist doctrine.

Splits happen for a lot of reasons, but it doesn't necessarily implicate a failure of a party. In fact, it can mean that the party has successfuly identified that a section of it failed to maintain the correct theory and practice, and therefore rejects it. Just like how an organism rejects a foreign body that enters it. That is in fact, what has happened with the International Communist Party. And it is part of the reason why the party has managed to maintain the correct path instead of degenerating.

>>2368557
Yeah I'm not a dogmato revisionist who quotes Marx like the Apostle Paul and thinks dialectical materialism is scientific in exactly the same sense as physics. That shit is goofy pseudo-religion when MLs do it, it's goofy pseudo-religion when you guys do it, and it's not what Marx and Engels even used the word science to mean when talking about scientific socialism.

They updated their theory in response to more data over the course of their lives and everyone who came afterwards has "revised" them including Lenin and Bordiga. It is also quite obvious that an experiment in scientific socialism can't meet the criteria of the physical sciences, let alone theorizing about past modes of production. The particular set of material factors that existed in 1917 will never exist again, not closely enough for us to conduct more experiments. And there are whole huge periods of human history where we can do our best to reconstruct the history of class relations but because of a lack of sources the data for it to even theoretically be "scientific" in the sense of a laboratory experiment is not present.

Which isn't to say I reject materialism or think we need to update Marx to make him more liberal or something but invariance seems like a very intellectually lazy attempt to replace the reality that Marxism is a complex intellectual tradition with a list of dogmatic points to uphold.

>>2368567
>It has worked fantastically by being the only real communist party on the planet that maintains the correct and scientific communist doctrine.
Bro you are saying shit like this about a microscopic party in a completely different country from you because of MEMES. This is so deeply unserious and it's exactly the kind of ideology shopping you people complain about.
>That is in fact, what has happened with the International Communist Party
Why don't you elaborate on that? Enlighten the poor MLs, they don't get to read the history since you guys censor discussion of this stuff on your hugboxes.

>>2368122
>>2368130
>they dont want to seize the means
NGMI

>>2368758
>seize le means means defending democracy
typical sloganeering retard

>>2368771
stay mad socdem lol

>>2368758
If seizing the means makes my life busier and harder, no I don’t want it

>>2369059
And you don't think a proletarian revolution would make your life busier and harder? However shit it is your life is a lot more comfortable and less chaotic now than it would be in the middle of revolution and civil war and you have more of a chance of moving up into the PB than you do comfortably surviving revolution and everything that comes after it. Almost like there are reasons to be behind socialism rather than pure convenience.