/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

central planning means an abolition of exchange in favor of direct distribution; thats the central flaw, since it universalises consumption under the regime of necessity, rather than subjective interest. subjective interests also incur a marginal utility, which gives character to low time-preferential activity like saving. if one cannot save his money, he cannot strive to actualize his desire, so loses ambition for more productive pursuits.

decentralized planning creates markets by a division of labor and capital, necessitating money as a medium of exchange. the benefit of this is that it allows for the private possession of money, which then allows for higher consumption and investment in society.

in centrally-planned economies, there is also no efficient price system, so the supply of goods cannot be properly organized, while in decentralized systems, supply is regulated by consumer demand. money limits its own supply based on these market factors.

>>2375725

>Anarcho-capitalism
I see so bullshit.

>[bullshit]
Let me debunk this for you
>I am a Anarcho-capitalism!
>Hail our monopoly!
>Hail the one big corporation who centrally plans everything!
>It is the will of the market!
And I rest my case!

compooters

>>2375736
ancaps are against monopolies, since they can only rise due to state partnership. why do you think corporations require subsidies if they are so efficient? markets destroy monopolies through competition and free association.

>>2375740
Wrong. Markets consolidate due to general law of accumulation. Free market pre-monopoly capitalism (1600-1880) developed into monopoly capitalism after its apex in 1860s-70s.

Marx and Engels were against central planning btw

>>2375740
retard

you might want to check the cybercommunism general
>>2249875

>>2375761
Prove it faggot. They were against centralized decisionmaking without oversight aka no transparency, not against any sort of "centralized economy". Inb4 barracks communism, btw gorby and other revisionists used the same arguments for pro-market reforms.

>>2375725
Free Markets worked so well in 90s Russia that it convinced the majority of the population that the worst, most inefficient centrally planned economy was better than the best functioning market. Russia has a alot of idle potential that isnt used due to neolibs in power and in position of economic importance (Putin and his clique)

>>2375740

>Monopolies are LE impossible in the le free market
I can not hear you over the sound of the government breaking up monopolies.

>Monopolies magically vanish
Imagine living in an absurd fantasy land.

>The government creates monopolies
Despite it breaking them up…..

>b-b-b- why money from the gov
Because the capitalist wants more money? Do you think they will stop this once all anti-monopoly laws are removed?
>b-b-b-b-
What is your solution make money illegal? Welcome to the real world child.

>>2375725
>>2375740
Fun fact the free market is impossible and never has existed and never will exist.

>>2375725
Here's something that'll blow your mind: There is no such thing as unplanned economies. No, not even small businesses.
> if one cannot save his money, he cannot strive to actualize his desire
Do you Rothbardians realize one can work towards a future without saving? When I'm working out, what exactly am I "saving"? "Saving" is the very opposite of becoming. And this goes for business too.
The difference between "savings" and "earnings" is also questionable in itself. If I generate revenue, and immediately re-invest it, how is this different from the Gosplan doing the same when it came to raw output?

>which then allows for higher consumption and investment in society.
Why? As the Gosplan showed, even when extremely centralized, the level of investment and growth in output can surpass that of "free market" economies.
>in centrally-planned economies, there is also no efficient price system
Leaving aside there being no such thing as "unplanned" economies. What do you mean by an "efficient" price system? If people are unable to afford goods, or lack access to them entirely in the USSR, how is this "less efficient" compared to a homeless person or "working poor" being unable to afford the same goods in the United States?

>>2375717
>The capitalist propaganda is basically nonsense since is not every economy centrally planned? Do the capitalist corporations not have a board of directors who literally decide how many products to produce this year?
Yes. And it becomes especially evident when you work for a huge international company. Come to think of it, Why was South Korea at the height of the Chaebol centralization a "free market" but not the Comecon?

>>2375740
Try work for a huge retailer. You'll quickly realize why they can undercut "Mon and Pops" without subsidies due to economies of scale. And they'd be wiped out almost entirely if not for antitrust laws (like prohibiting retailers from capturing all the market share in a certain area by buying up all the stores, and their smaller local competitors).

>>2375835
>Yes
Can you give me more materials to read on this subject?

Because the spamming of the word ""Centrally planned"" always sounded to me like retarded capitalist propaganda.

>>2375838
I appreciate you taking seriously a un-ironic anarcho-capitalist 🤡
However at some point you need to conclude that these people literally must deny every form of reality.

I am the the
>Ridicule and laugh at
Stage at dealing with ancaps.


>Try work for a huge retailer.
Ancap axiom #1
<Mathematics is a communist lie! (this is literally part of Praxeology!!! 🤡🤡🤡)

Ancap axiom #2
<Money is not real 🤡🤡🤡 and can not be used to calculate everything.

Ancap axiom #3
<Barriers to entry are fake.

Ancap axiom #4
<Economies of scale are not real!

>>2375853
>>2375863
>>2375740

This picture kills the ancap

>>2375725
Deleting the CENTRAL NODE in your "decentralized" diagram will cause the network to shatter into five pieces. That image is a good fit for the intellectual rigor you exhibit in your post :P

You seem to believe the purpose of life is to have good prices, but prices are a means. Prices would of course be less important in a more centralized system, it does not follow from this that they would be bad. And what is the meaning of good and bad here. You seem to think (if your thinking even goes that far, you see I'm being generous here) that the question of price quality is equivalent to how close price proportions are to those of the magical "free" market. But if the prices don't have the same purpose, why should they be. And you have no argument why being able to do marginalist analysis would require a decentralized system, it's just another asinine assertion.

>>2375717
central planning will only work if AI gets sophisticated enough and we also have to hope it doesn't evolve into some super demonic god

>>2376229
>AI

It is incredible how fast someone can debunk themselves if they mention AI and are worshiping it.

Like FTL fast self debunking.

<While yes central planning is only possible if we let a insane robot do it and tell us to smoke cigarettes every day.

>demonic
Mentioning DEMONS Shiggy Diggy

Either way this is a serious question. Who was the first leftists or Marxist writer to talk seriously about Central Planning?

Does this exist outside of CIA propaganda?

<Muh AI will centrally plan
1) Did Marx write about AI and central planning?!

2) if you have no idea WTF central planning is supposed to even be then it can not be implemented and AI and computers will not solve this.

Wikipedia has this insanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

Outside of being a meaningless 70s SF nonsense I debunk this retardation by being a real worker who works in a bread factory.
Unlike all the NEETs and legal NEETs (academics are legal NEETs).

We make bread there, it comes out of the oven and is cooled and then packed into bags and then boxes. The boxes are send out to customers almost every day (excluding holidays and weekends)

Now WTF would this central planning or AI or the 70SF room help here?

<Information faster information
Of what? One product is directly boxed before getting shipped out it comes out of the assembly line and is packed. You literally can not do it faster because hot bread and bags or boxes are a bad idea.

BECAUSE PHYSICS AND REALITY!
And the bread can not cool faster because of PHYSICS.

<herp derp how do we know what to produce and how much, muh problems of central planning and my fedora!
This is very simple Jabba the ancap/liberterian we do it based on what the customers say. The customers are other firms so stores and restaurants etc.

<b-b-b-b- how do they know
Based on observation? I mean I never worked in a consumer facing establishment however I can literally predict that it is based on historical data +/- predictions

<b-b-b-b- where does the historic data come from? Check mate atheists!
It is a record of how much of the food was sold and taken this is it. This is how simple it is. The blind prediction is literally
<Hmm I think this year we will have more customers because we host the Olympics
or
<hmmm COVID happened I predict we sell less cars so lets build less cars this year!
And this REAL prediction your corporate gods did make failed and turned out to be wrong.

I seriously have no idea WTF liberterians/ancaps are raving all about or if they are schizo or never left their mothers basement. Same for the central planning fanboys.

How the fuck is a computer room that sends you all the data of …. ???? What exactly? How many breads we did sell? That shit is so trivial you can write it on paper. And what will happen faster or better here? We can not make bread faster (and for cars it is on another level of impossible). We often use bread that is in reserve and also shit happens and the bread gets fucked up so producing more is a good idea to have a safe buffer for incidents.

Any improvements are based on technology improving and we already use the Science Fiction technology of a 1950s TELEPHONE to get the requests at the speed of LIGHT over phone lines!

However even if telephones did not exist this would change very little for us (maybe the customers would flip out since they can not call last minute to change their orders, a very cancerous behavior) and the delivery driver would simply pick up the list of their next order for tomorrow when he delivers the product for today. A little tabulation in the office and we get our orders for tomorrow.

If central planning is a thing in this way then there is
"Physical paper card request planning"
That was replaced by
"Phone call request planning"
This is simply technology that changes not planning.

Bonus for libertarians
<How can you know how much you produce (or other retardation)
lets concentrate on the most common bread type (there are others) 8 bread balls into 1 bag and for this product 3 bags into a box (there are like 3 types of boxes however this is the most common one and lets keep it simple)

If you can not figure this one out I help you it is 8 * 3 = ???
If you can not figure this out you should be publicly beaten and shamed for your retardation and not lecture others how abandoning capitalism is impossible because 8 * 3 = ??? is beyond your brains capacity.

<Yes however how can you figure out how much of the flour and other ingredient to order? Checkmate atheists!

While I am sure the boss hides this information it is as simple as knowing how many of a given ingredient is thrown into one mixer unit (no idea how they are named) SO lets say
one mixer unit gives a total of 1450 bread balls A (lets call it that the product codes we use are insane)
It is filled with 55 KG of flour
10 liters of water
12 liters of egg yoke
(lets keep it simple)

Now how many KG of flour how many Liters of water and how many liters of egg yoke do you need if you want to produce 50000 bread balls of type A?

If you do not know how to solve this or can not even imagine how this is calculated then your libertarian NEET money needs to be canceled(government money and/or inheritance you got) and you need to be forced to work in the coal mines until you drop dead since this is the only benefit to society that you can be.

For everyone else the calculations are simple and I do not understand why one guy (or WTF are you even arguing for) is supposed to calculate it instead the people in the firm like it is now.

I am sure that if someone analyzed every step of the production and distribution maybe some strangeness would show up like
>Why do you pack 8 into a bag if 4 lets you fill up more efficiently? And you can have better subdivisions and fill up the box better and put more bread into one?

However there is most often a simple answer
<The machine packs 8 and there is no changing that
And buying a new machine costs billions or putting more machines requires more space and this requires getting a bigger factory building

etc etc. My estimation is that most of the in firm behavior is 100% efficient and needs no improvements the only thing that can improve is removing crap like planned obsolescence and DRM that is a real thing however these things exist to benefit a specific firm.

There literally is no reason for the cable in a iphone to literally do cryptographic checks with the cables microprocessor and be calibrated to work with 1 cable with 1 specific serial number or it bricks itself. However it makes apple more money by fucking over anyone who wants to repair parts of their iphone.

Same for (hypothetically) factory machines who have a suicide chip who counts the number of operations made and if it hits lets say 99 billion it will kill itself so you need to buy a new machine.

>>2377528
>Who was the first leftists or Marxist writer to talk seriously about Central Planning?
Marx and Engels talked about labor-time accounting:
<…after the abolition of the capitalist mode of production, but still retaining social production, the determination of value continues to prevail in the sense that the regulation of labour-time and the distribution of social labour among the various production groups, ultimately the book-keeping encompassing all this, become more essential than ever.
-Marx, Capital Volume III https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch49.htm

<From the moment when society enters into possession of the means of production and uses them in direct association for production, the labour of each individual, however varied its specifically useful character may be, becomes at the start and directly social labour. The quantity of social labour contained in a product need not then be established in a roundabout way; daily experience shows in a direct way how much of it is required on the average. Society can simply calculate how many hours of labour are contained in a steam-engine, a bushel of wheat of the last harvest, or a hundred square yards of cloth of a certain quality. It could therefore never occur to it still to express the quantities of labour put into the products, quantities which it will then know directly and in their absolute amounts, in a third product, in a measure which, besides, is only relative, fluctuating, inadequate, though formerly unavoidable for lack of a better one, rather than express them in their natural, adequate and absolute measure, time.
-Engels, Anti-Dühring

And doing proper labor-time accounting logically entails central planning, otherwise you need a third thing as measure of labor time, "relative, fluctuating, inadequate".

>One product is directly boxed before getting shipped out it comes out of the assembly line and is packed. You literally can not do it faster because hot bread and bags or boxes are a bad idea (…) We can not make bread faster
I'm not a bread expert and rarely eat bread, but isn't bread production much faster today than it used to be; and I don't just mean less labor time here, but less waiting time due to inventions like ovens with different air pressure. Who says we are at the end here. Heating and cooling takes less time if there is more surface to volume. So, perhaps an avenue for speedup is to first use a shape that heats and cools quickly and then reshape after that (with a little help of some Frankenstein chemicals).

I question the generality of insight breadmaking gives you. I work in a huge warehouse and I can see that computers and computer networks make a huge difference.

>>2375717
Most economies today are centrally planned. The only thing that they do that isn’t planned out is the setting of prices which they look to the market to set those. But all the logistics and essentials of economies of scale is centrally planned.

If you wanna start producing something then there's an office you can go to ask the government to make a factory for it, and they'll figure if it's worth the resources or not.

>>2375853
see: >>2249875

>>2375717
>The capitalist propaganda is basically nonsense since is not every economy centrally planned?
Of course it isn't. There are 33 million separate - but interdependent - businesses in the US and over 200 million consumers; each making independent decisions without central planning.
You have confused the process of managing _one_ of 30 million businesses with coordinating all of them.
The complexity of this organism of nearly 300 million actors is beyond human comprehension. The proposition of centrally coordinating it is a jest.

>silly gommie, planning doesn't work
meanwhile:
>the USSR achieved 100 years' worth of industrialization in 20 years
>unaffected by the depression
>survived Barbarossa and beat the Nazis
>crises (muh breadlines) only appeared once liberalization took hold
for much of the USSR's existence the superiority of planning was beyond question. the Austrians were fringe for a reason. it is only after liberalization destroyed the Union that the idea that planning doesn't work took hold. as if the cure to the disease is more of the disease

>>2383142
>33 mil
You equated a garage dildo maker with a railroads, etc huge corps that manufacture things for the dildo maker. Crudely, they he is adding colorant to some molded material. The planning is not so detailed so every color of dildo is included in it. At first, I care I can get a jersey, only after that I may want a color cat jersey, right?

Next, I may be ok using just simple jersey. Why: I want to do something that can't bring income.. I need time for that and I prefer that to blue cat jersey. If you want it, I'm ok.

The planning of capitalist system will not allow me to do that. The planning is - you target profit, siciety is split into prols and bourge, it demands a labor army, wich is some average humans.. not me and my simple jersey.

Centrally planning as I see it, it is cotrary to single firms/private_property. Also, I forgot, the relation of prol to products is inderect, it is trhough bourgeois. Unlike that, in a central planned registry/economy it is direct.

>>2383255
>The planning is not so detailed so every color of dildo is included in it
assuming said dildos aren't one-offs, we most certainly would plan for the amount of dye that is necessary to make each one. dragon dildos for everyone!

>>2383209
>USSR's
Explain how USSR was a planed economy. I wait. You assume it was because you where born in a NATO country that indoctrinated you it was.

If it was you can surly explain how to make a planed economy and not placing a sticker on state capitalism and calling is
<Le planed economy
Is not an answer.

>>2377982
>-Marx, Capital Volume III https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch49.htm

>-Engels, Anti-Dühring

Thanks.
However
<The Word "planned economy" is not used.
>time
<This does not look different from what is going on today.

>logically entails central planning,
Yet you did not explain what this is….
>of labor time,
You seriously think the capitalists are not also counting that today?

>logically entails central planning,
Word not used by Marx!

> but isn't bread production much faster
???
What are we even talking about at this point?
The original post was about the computer room that wikipedia references as a le experiment in central planning.
>How the fuck is a computer room that sends you all the data of …. ???? What exactly? How many breads we did sell? That shit is so trivial you can write it on paper.
What will the computer room improve here? This is the question.

>speedup is to first use a shape that
Now you are talking about technology.
Is central planning a technology?
Ask yourself if this can be implemented in current day capitalism if the answer is
<YES
Then what the fuck is central planning even?

>>2377991
>is centrally planned.
OK.

What was the historic alternative to this?

> setting of prices which they look to the market to
Objectively wrong.
1) No one can even show what this even is.
Do they consult the magic market oracle to know the immaterial will of the le market?

2) Companies literally make something and throw it out with the price that they did set regardless if it will crash and burn or not. Apple is a perfect example they literally will throw out trash with overinflated prices and expect the legions of their fanboys to buy it like crack addicts buy crack.
Best example apple visoin pro where is that thing now? Crashed and burned.

>>2383142
>Liberterian flag
Thank you.
I wanted to debunk your point however the flag says it all.
>[Ridiculous straw man]
>This is what you believe in
Retard I am the one who is questioning that central planing is even a real thing!

>Nooo you can not do things your way! You must do it the way I have in my retarded head!
Point and laugh.

Its important to have labor-time accounting and universal standards maintained for this accounting, as well as a universal and publicly available system to measure and verify labor-times of all labor processes.

So yes, there needs to be centralized institutions that plan and maintain this system, I guess you can call this central planning.

But very importantly, this is a temporary thing. The impetus here is to abolish this very system by reducing the necessary amount of labor to maintain what society will deem a minimum standard of living, and the remaining labor will be truly "free" labor that is not even accounted for.

Btw I have a question for the Cockshott-heads in this thread, what is the need for advanced price calculation algorithms? Isn't it enough to have a simple - calculate total labor hours of all inputs - as the "social price" of a product? In a transitional socialist society, the cost and price will be the exact same, and supply and demand will automatically balance since [Total cost of all goods in labor-hours = total hours of direct and indirect labor-hours that went into it].

>>2385839
>Explain how USSR was a planed economy
I'm not going to spoon feed you learns
>state capitalism
there's no such thing

>>2375740
Retard alert. Snowball effect.

>>2375740
>a Randite has breached the walls

There cannot be an industrial anarcho-capitalism. The Bourgeoisie prop up a state because industrial capitalism is a perpetually failing system that can only be sustained in blood. Those welfare states you hate so much are the last cries of your bougie friends being torn apart by overproduction crises & recessions of their own making, attempting to adapt microcosms of economic command in some attempt to keep workers slightly less angry & their system slightly more sustainable. How you are taken seriously in any economic, political or even social circle is a hilarious testament to the effects of Thatcherite brainrot. In your vast copium, you have somehow made Anarchism more idealist.

You will never be a Revolutionary. You have no theory, you have no disillusionment, you have no dialectics or any form of material analysis. You are an Iowan twisted by Constitutionalism (liberalism) and Kaczynskite Adventurism into a crude mockery of critical thought.

<Picrel

>>2375725
this shit must go so hard if you know nothing about distributed computing