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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1752019558615.png (133.02 KB, 720x362, ClipboardImage (7).png)

 

So how, exactly, would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world? Surely producing them would be so difficult you would need some form of top-down planning to create such things, no?

>>2378908
> Surely producing them would be so difficult you would need some form of top-down planning to create such things, no?
No they claim logistics come through coordination by threat of violence for individual entrepreneurs. Like you're either with us or against us mentality for this kind of planning where they claim they're free but they're forced to engage with each other by threat of violence by the majority.

>>2378920
>by threat of violence for individual entrepreneurs.
That's the realized ones, they are ok with that, others who are not realized are individual entrepreneur minded and are recreating the capitalist mode of production.
Its all like perma DOTP without calling it DOTP without producers exchanging their products its just this really violent society where they coordinate to allocate resources or get killed by the coordinated mob.

File: 1752020458825.png (523.27 KB, 494x598, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2378920
>>2378922
It looks all like this one book from NAM, I imagine the masked guy is like a coordinator of violence and the guy he caught was trying to do individual entrepreneurship making deals and trades instead of producers not exchanging their products and instead reporting their produce and having it allocated through conferences for coordination of resources, the total sum produced in a month is calculated so if less comes somebody has to die cause obviously they're hoarding and trying to exchange use values.

>>2378929
>It looks all like this one book from NAM
Minus the nation, its just coordination and conditioning and eventually if they can keep up the cycle of violence they can socialize all so they won't need coordinators they will just put the resources into barracks and keep logs and give demands to the producers which will only restock and not dare hoard or try to exchange because they will literally be lynched.

>>2378930
The producers do not exchange their products, computers make logs, eventually resource allocation is deliberate towards a goal. They all have to gather or send representatives and talk on required use values for project building.

>>2378931
At this point though no one gathers, the logistics are settled and dialogue is ran by computers anyway. Producers make use values, logistics handle, resources are allocated to storage facilities / barracks, logistics handle, assemblers handle, all project participants are planners, projects are determined by societal strives, societal strives are determined by persons with set goals and project proposals, bystanders do not engage, those who don't engage have no say except to be producers or assemblers.

>>2378908
Picrel only works on surplus value on scarce resources, otherwise these use values are made for projects and require planning.

>>2378936
And even then, for that guy to take the surplus value, he should have permission, from everyone, or he's going to get killed and they will take back that 7 nm FinFet-based microprocessor and put it back where it was.
Resource wars will literally not end as long as there is scarcity and a need for allocation, at some point there ought to be a strive for literal materialization but since spontaneous materialization of things cannot happen it will be advanced restructuring - turning literal dirt into microprocessor use values by complex machinery.

>>2378938
A clique of intellectuals ought to come as free planners bundling up to projects and take heed, these planners literally cannot overstep their boundaries if the projects affect others - they have to be included and therefore are forced into dialogue until consensus, that is so fucking tedious at some point these "intellectuals" may as well just be computers.

>>2378920
>>2378922
>>2378929
>>2378930
>>2378931
>>2378933
>>2378936
>>2378938
>>2378939
At this point we're way past "captain of the ship", its already been set there is representative roles, as big forehead Stirner (ENGELS) said: what is freedom? to have responsibility for onself. Its a matter doing the task a person is assigned to, just like being given administrative clearance or punished. There cannot be a negligent captain, the crewmen will mutiny him, that's the logic of anarchism. The captain cannot overstep his boundaries, cannot threaten, cannot give unnecessary demands or commands when given the clearance to handle lives and complete a task, this direct role is practically at an invisible gunpoint.

>>2378942
What hierarchy concerns anarchism? The essence of it is "without rulers". Who truly rules? A captain who threatens to crash a ship if they don't blow him, or the crewmen who will mutiny and kill him for asking that.
Being in a post of "power" means nothing to a fictive "hierarchy", they are on the same playing field so long as they cannot overstep their assignment.

>>2378908
im not even an anarchist but of course advanced production can happen without a state - how could you be a communist and not believe this?

it's another
>why would anyone do anything without a gun to their head
argument I see

Moving on
>>2378908
>would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world?
The infrastructure is already there, the first phase on takeover requires a takeover of logistics and assignment of those competent to operate into the correct positions by allocation which can only ever happen through coordination by dialogue - much like any job interview since the inception of specialization / the division of labor.
Where there is a lack of role, on a specialist's need, there must be allocation towards creating a new specialist.
There is this ladder of constant refusal undialectical people want to go through on hypotheticals, in a case of absolute refusal from everywhere to assign a specialist for a much needed task, someone will literally be forced into it and it may as well be the ones calling for a specialist hardest - do it yourself turns to we do it onto you.

A specialist can only be created by having comprehensive knowledge on the matter, they must be given the material and forced to learn it.

Moving on.
Without all the "but what ifs", if there are already fit people in the field they will continue work as usual - the chain of supply will just be taken over. If sectors refuse or strike (FOR WHAT? MONEY IS ABOLISHED, THEY CAN ONLY STRIKE FOR USE VALUES) they will be punished for sabotage just like the kulaks.

>>2378945
It is a point though. I'm saying as long as there is resource scarcity there will always be problems with resource allocation, the same with scarcity in certain professions nobody wants to take up. AT SOME POINT, anarchist and communist and any movement or mode of production will be pointing guns to heads of certain people to keep the drive going. Anything other than that is idealism or luddism in the strains of "antiwork" and such reactionary behavior.
What anarchists and newer communists must be reminded of is that he who does not work neither shall he eat (unless he cannot work of course).

>>2378948
>I'm saying
And I mean responding to the OP. I'm not the OP.

>>2378908
Democratically elected intellectuals subject to recall supervised by other democratically elected intellectuals subject to recall.

>>2379844
No democratic bullshit, organically selected individuals by merit and ability to be delegates. You have never been in an Anarchist Federation before, we don't "democratically elect" our delegates, we hate democracy, all you western "anarchists" are trot and succdem cults.

i find anarchism and anarchists retarded but this thread sucks just like all the utopian world-crafting threads we have every week

>>2378908
You are confusing concepts. There is a difference between coercive hierarchies among workers (boss and subordinate) and production that requires several steps.

Hierarchy within production is not problematic at all. It is simply the manufacture of a product. It becomes a problem if the worker in the assembly line is forced to do a meaningless job while earning a misery.

>>2380923
>unironically talking about abstract shite like "hierarchies" seriously
>unironically saying the problem with wage labor is "when the pay is too low"
oh brother

Aircraft carriers wouldn't be produced because they purely exist as large money sinks for private military contractors. They are floating missile targets in any real engagement.

>>2378908
>So how, exactly, would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world?
Federations formed by communes would take responsibility of larger investments.

>>2378908
<So how, exactly, would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world?
Wtf would we need aircraft carriers, "anarchist world" implies communism's been achieved?

File: 1752133612107.pdf (138.82 KB, 197x255, I Pencil.pdf)

>>2378908
Absent central planning it is being done due to coordination provided by the price system. Mr. Pencil claims that there is not a single person on Earth which knows how to make him, yet he is. Millions of people cooperate in his production - some of them don't know how to use pencils, many of them hate each other but it doesn't stop him from being made.
How some anarchists want to do it without price system is anybody's guess.

>>2378908
1. in what possible world is there a use case for anarchist aircraft carriers?
2. it's not some cardinal violation of anarchism if people all voluntarily follow instructions. it may be implausible that this occurs, but it's not unimaginable. if i draw up a top-down plan for an aircraft carrier and its production, and then everyone takes a number and does one of the relevant jobs in producing it without coercion, this is still much more anarchist than "you'll build it because otherwise you'll starve", whether that starvation is meted out with dollars or with labor vouchers.

that example seems silly, but if you want a practical example consider many modding/software projects, where people don't really have a "job" and can just fuck off at any time if they don't like it. you can go "wait, but those fail a lot" - sure, they do, but capitalist and state enterprises fail a lot too. you don't get a 100% success rate.

t. non-anarchist.

>>2381195
>you see the labour process is socialised or something and thats why planning is impossible because le transformation problem and the economic cacalation pruhblem

>>2378908
How will production of advanced goods happen in a free association of producers without a division of labor?

>>2378908
>So how, exactly, would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world?
Slave labor and cannibalism?

>>2384011
sounds good to me

how would nuclear weapons work under anarchism?

>>2384028
well i hope

>>2381202
>in what possible world is there a use case for anarchist aircraft carriers?
In the same very likely scenario where anarcho warlords consolidate their anarcho not-a-state and launch raids against other anarcho not-a-states for plunder after supply chains collapse and the chainganged anarcho slaves can’t grow food fast enough to feed the starving bandits that make up the new elite

Anarchist (infantile): We will have a horizontal federation of communes.

Marxists (smart): We will have an administration of things.

you could have picked a better example than aircraft carriers, OP. like insulin
>>2384006
>free association of producers
that's just the planning system
>without a division of labor
utopian nonsense. there's nothing to suggest anything but the deepening of the division of labour

>>2384035
>new elite
a new elite in a supposedly socialist society, as if!

lmao not a single actual anarchist on leftypol you epic debatebros can engage with.

>>2378908
It doesn't
Stop being a red fash and expecting me to do things
Only things I need to be doing are your little sisters pussy
I owe society literally nothing but contempt and terrorism

I'm not arguing with you about this either. You want planes? Go paint a model airplane with one of the many autists of the cpusa. Pretend like your moralist utopia is possible of having planes and shit that isn't built on the blood of third world slavery and human rights violations domestically

Imma just keep being dialectically materialist and correct

>>2378908
Federations or even better confederations take care of larger military investments.
/thread

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>>2378908
>i need air craft carrier
<hey i like making aircraft carrier and helping people who need them, take this
>thx

>>2384006
a central plan laid down by a supercomputer.


where did all the anarchists on /leftypol/ go? Did Covid get them? Did they become liberals?

>>2388657
Quite possible, libertarians took a hit during Covid too.
>bbbut, without gaberment, who will force people to take the jab???
Forget that if the jab actually worked then vaccinated people would not give a fuck if others vaccinate themselves or not.

>>2388750
lol I didn't mean that Covid literally took them; they've converted under 24/7 propaganda.

>>2378908
There will always be large projects requiring people to organize over long periods of time, especially urban infrastructure and such. I think the OP example doesn't really hit the mark though.

First, people tend to greatly underestimate the impact of planned obsolescence. I regularly use a coffee grinder that was produced in the 60s and it is still incredibly sturdy. Educate enough people in simple maintenance and repair procedures and i imagine the durability of common household appliances will be measured in decades.

Second, supply chains can usually be cut down by several magnitudes in the absence of the profit motive and consumer microprocessors is a field particularly plagued by fragmentation. The obvious solution to depending on special-purpose, currently proprietary components would be using FPGAs for all general-purpose computing.

>>2387150
An anarchist worth arguing with is about as likely as a flying pig. Engels mogged anarchotards 150 years ago and they’re still seething over it

>>2388606
So a state. You’ve made a state. And who runs this “federation”? An anarcho-president?

>>2388896
A network of worker cooperatives exchanging goods on the basis of their market price would fare infinitely better than the USSR style centrally managed economy, and that's a fact.
The only area of human activity where big, state managed organizations have historically had an upper hand is the military. This is highly unfortunate elephant in the room, although we also have important exceptions to this rule with highly successful guerilla movements.
As soon as the problem of military is solved (drones maybe?) this state parasitism will be over forever. You can call me a prophet.

>>2384528
Good to know Marx and Engels were utopians for wanting to get rid of the division of labor. How about the bit about labor being life's prime want? Even with future techniques, who would love doing sewer maintenance, butchering animals, or installing electric lines?

>>2384528
>utopian nonsense. there's nothing to suggest anything but the deepening of the division of labour
i agree, marx's idea of communism is dumb:
>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
>>2390802
this is where the early marx (german ideology) is superior to the late marx (critique of the gotha program).
>in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm


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