So how, exactly, would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world? Surely producing them would be so difficult you would need some form of top-down planning to create such things, no?
>>2378920>by threat of violence for individual entrepreneurs.That's the realized ones, they are ok with that, others who are not realized are individual entrepreneur minded and are recreating the capitalist mode of production.
Its all like perma DOTP without calling it DOTP without producers exchanging their products its just this really violent society where they coordinate to allocate resources or get killed by the coordinated mob.
>>2378931At this point though no one gathers, the logistics are settled and dialogue is ran by computers anyway. Producers make use values, logistics handle, resources are allocated to storage facilities / barracks, logistics handle, assemblers handle, all project participants are planners, projects are determined by societal strives, societal strives are determined by persons with set goals and project proposals, bystanders do not engage, those who don't engage have no say except to be producers or assemblers.
>>2378936And even then, for that guy to take the surplus value, he should have permission, from everyone, or he's going to get killed and they will take back that 7 nm FinFet-based microprocessor and put it back where it was.
Resource wars will literally not end as long as there is scarcity and a need for allocation, at some point there ought to be a strive for literal materialization but since spontaneous materialization of things cannot happen it will be advanced restructuring - turning literal dirt into microprocessor use values by complex machinery.
>>2378942What hierarchy concerns anarchism? The essence of it is "without rulers". Who truly rules? A captain who threatens to crash a ship if they don't blow him, or the crewmen who will mutiny and kill him for asking that.
Being in a post of "power" means nothing to a fictive "hierarchy", they are on the same playing field so long as they cannot overstep their assignment.
Moving on
>>2378908>would production of advanced goods like aircraft carriers happen in an Anarchist world?The infrastructure is already there, the first phase on takeover requires a takeover of logistics and assignment of those competent to operate into the correct positions by allocation which can only ever happen through coordination by dialogue - much like any job interview since the inception of specialization / the division of labor.
Where there is a lack of role, on a specialist's need, there must be allocation towards creating a new specialist.
There is this ladder of constant refusal undialectical people want to go through on hypotheticals, in a case of absolute refusal from everywhere to assign a specialist for a much needed task, someone will literally be forced into it and it may as well be the ones calling for a specialist hardest - do it yourself turns to we do it onto you.
A specialist can only be created by having comprehensive knowledge on the matter, they must be given the material and forced to learn it.
Moving on.
Without all the "but what ifs", if there are already fit people in the field they will continue work as usual - the chain of supply will just be taken over. If sectors refuse or strike (FOR WHAT? MONEY IS ABOLISHED, THEY CAN ONLY STRIKE FOR USE VALUES) they will be punished for sabotage just like the kulaks.
>>2378945It is a point though. I'm saying as long as there is resource scarcity there will always be problems with resource allocation, the same with scarcity in certain professions nobody wants to take up. AT SOME POINT, anarchist and communist and any movement or mode of production will be pointing guns to heads of certain people to keep the drive going. Anything other than that is idealism or luddism in the strains of "antiwork" and such reactionary behavior.
What anarchists and newer communists must be reminded of is that he who does not work neither shall he eat (unless he cannot work of course).
>>2378908You are confusing concepts. There is a difference between coercive hierarchies among workers (boss and subordinate) and production that requires several steps.
Hierarchy within production is not problematic at all. It is simply the manufacture of a product. It becomes a problem if the worker in the assembly line is forced to do a meaningless job while earning a misery.
>>2378908Absent central planning it is being done due to coordination provided by the price system. Mr. Pencil claims that there is not a single person on Earth which knows how to make him, yet he is. Millions of people cooperate in his production - some of them don't know how to use pencils, many of them hate each other but it doesn't stop him from being made.
How some anarchists want to do it without price system is anybody's guess.
>>23789081. in what possible world is there a use case for anarchist aircraft carriers?
2. it's not some cardinal violation of anarchism if people all voluntarily follow instructions. it may be implausible that this occurs, but it's not unimaginable. if i draw up a top-down plan for an aircraft carrier and its production, and then everyone takes a number and does one of the relevant jobs in producing it without coercion, this is still much more anarchist than "you'll build it because otherwise you'll starve", whether that starvation is meted out with dollars or with labor vouchers.
that example seems silly, but if you want a practical example consider many modding/software projects, where people don't really have a "job" and can just fuck off at any time if they don't like it. you can go "wait, but those fail a lot" - sure, they do, but capitalist and state enterprises fail a lot too. you don't get a 100% success rate.
t. non-anarchist.
you could have picked a better example than aircraft carriers, OP. like insulin
>>2384006>free association of producersthat's just the planning system
>without a division of laborutopian nonsense. there's nothing to suggest anything but the
deepening of the division of labour
>>2378908It doesn't
Stop being a red fash and expecting me to do things
Only things I need to be doing are your little sisters pussy
I owe society literally nothing but contempt and terrorism
I'm not arguing with you about this either. You want planes? Go paint a model airplane with one of the many autists of the cpusa. Pretend like your moralist utopia is possible of having planes and shit that isn't built on the blood of third world slavery and human rights violations domestically
Imma just keep being dialectically materialist and correct
>>2378908Federations or even better confederations take care of larger military investments.
/thread
>>2388657Quite possible, libertarians took a hit during Covid too.
>bbbut, without gaberment, who will force people to take the jab???Forget that if the jab actually worked then vaccinated people would not give a fuck if others vaccinate themselves or not.
>>2378908There will always be large projects requiring people to organize over long periods of time, especially urban infrastructure and such. I think the OP example doesn't really hit the mark though.
First, people tend to greatly underestimate the impact of planned obsolescence. I regularly use a coffee grinder that was produced in the 60s and it is still incredibly sturdy. Educate enough people in simple maintenance and repair procedures and i imagine the durability of common household appliances will be measured in decades.
Second, supply chains can usually be cut down by several magnitudes in the absence of the profit motive and consumer microprocessors is a field particularly plagued by fragmentation. The obvious solution to depending on special-purpose, currently proprietary components would be using FPGAs for all general-purpose computing.
>>2388896A network of worker cooperatives exchanging goods on the basis of their market price would fare infinitely better than the USSR style centrally managed economy, and that's a fact.
The only area of human activity where big, state managed organizations have historically had an upper hand is the military. This is highly unfortunate elephant in the room, although we also have important exceptions to this rule with highly successful guerilla movements.
As soon as the problem of military is solved (drones maybe?) this state parasitism will be over forever. You can call me a prophet.
>>2384528>utopian nonsense. there's nothing to suggest anything but the deepening of the division of labouri agree, marx's idea of communism is dumb:
>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm>>2390802this is where the early marx (german ideology) is superior to the late marx (critique of the gotha program).
>in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critichttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm >>2430702socialism is when the government does stuff.
communism is when the government does everything.
when everything is the state, nothing is.
that's the meaning of dialectics.
>>2388898Federations are structured horizontally, ideally the organizations that make up the federations will be following a program and creating projects coordinating by merit and by capability. Organizations can have delegates as long as delegates are needed to represent them where there is a lack of communication, but that should be resolved with technology that can improve communication much like the internet.
Anyone who wants there to be a leader or for themselves to be a leader / ruler (YOU) must have their brains splattered or be taken into a lab and conducted experiments on, for good measure see UNIT 731.
>>2430749>ideallyIf they don't have a program then they should do consensus until they can build a program. Dissenters from the program need to be persecuted if they can't explain why they reject it or if they seek to undermine it to get into a position of power.
>the captain of the shipThe captain of the ship will always be a traitor if he feels that his duty is a position of power when other people's lives depend on it, pre-emptive mutiny measures for everyone who steps out of their line of duty that must be constituted in rules.
>>2430837<implying anarchist society would be one of constant warAs long as it takes.
>Not beating the historical base of fascism allegations.And? Cry some more.
>>2430845>by enforcing a set of standards on malcontents you’re doing an authoritarianismWho cares about authoritarianism? What matters is upholding the horizontal organization, it doesn't matter who gets crushed beneath it for standing on the way.
>Also “horizontal organization” lolWhen the mob lynch comes, who do you call the leader? Where is the hierarchy?
The federation is the body (corpus) the worker's organizations (or mobs as Stalinists call them) are the blood cells, the body has to rid itself of disease (Stalinists, Maoists, Liberals, Leninists, Fascists - Inauthentic anarchists, Nationalists, Business owners, Traders, Barterers etc.) with the autoimmune cells (the militant) by coordinating the flow accordingly. The cancer can be removed by appropriating advanced technology and utilizing chemotherapy (biological warfare). Anarchists should take up the key positions of the chain of supply to take the MOP. All POWs should be used as canon fodder or for human experiments trials to test diseases on and develop medicines for the militant. WMDs should be taken over as soon as possible to have leverage, if the bourgeois nationalists want to crush the revolution they should receive a Mutually Assured Destruction. Anarcho-Communism is the best unitary corporatism built on merit. Deserters and traitors will be treated like the other POWs. Unit 731 would have been the greatest slave revolt if it was the captured doing experiments on the Japanese Empire's doctors, taking over their research. Unit 731 showed the greatness of how much the productive forces can develop during the revolutionary war for anarcho-communism, there is no debate to be had since its inevitable as long as the growth of the movement persists and anarchists are allowed to take up key positions, organize and spread.
Once everything is done it is only a matter of resource management by planning which will take the coordinated efforts of all who are capable of engaging with the technology that must be developed to remove the error margin.
Anarchism is not "anti-authoritarian" it is against rulers and being ruled, which can only exist as a condition as long as everyone with such aspirations is destroyed or utilized thoroughly. It is funny that Stalinists are complaining about "authoritarianism" since they've only seen the liberal and socialdemocratic punk crowd appropriating the name of anarchism, there is no "freedom" to be had with anarcho-communism, there is a program to be followed to assure a functional social order, as the saying goes - anarchy is order.
>>2430912We went from
>doing the feds workto
>anarchists are fedsWhat's the matter? Are you scared? In either way we run the game.
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