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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


 

Was recently thinking about this, does the phrase "Israel are the new nazis" have any actual merit? It seems to make sense at first, but I've encountered many third positionists who side with Russia and China over the the Ukraine and Israel, who supposedly make up the 5th reich

its classic settler-colonialism. like south african apartheid it has its strains that embrace fascist aesthetics, like kahanists in israel. but a collaborationist economy based on forming a yeoman class with land captured from an exiled/killed/immiserated native population is a largely different form of politics than one based on consolidation of national bourgeosie/petit-bourgeois into the engine of the reactionary state apparatus with a degree of investment in the "loyal" proletariat based on their collaboration, i.e. "classic" fascism. for one thing settler-colonialism is usually more stable because it specifically exists in circumstances of primitive accumulation and can coexist with the liberal nation-state whereas fascism needs to cannibalize the liberal apparatus to reshape industry and the state.

but these arent really mutually exclusive categorizes as much as they are just historically, circumstantially contingent expressions of the totality of capital's reproduction. if youre using "fascist" to mean a particularly brutal & militaristic exclusionary state, especially based around racialistic or nationalist chauvinism, that acts on the assumption of its exceptionalism even to its obvious practical detriment, the answer is "yes israel is very much fascist"

but something doesnt need to be fascist to be bad. the british empire was not fascist under any reasonable definition and was easily responsible for more suffering & destruction than all fascist states in history combined

>>2399450
Thrd positionism doesnt exist at all. Far right is closer related to feudalism

>>2399450
Kahanism could very well fit into third position ideologies, where organizations like Lehi could even be considered proto or predecessors to fourth political theory. But these distinctions are arbitrary, since they are all ultimately bourgeois.

>>2399496
early Lehi had members that were nazbol. However Kahane was explicit in his speechs about supporting free market economics

>>2399450
>Was recently thinking about this, does the phrase "Israel are the new nazis" have any actual merit?
I view that kind of saying as a "shock" propaganda slogan (it tries to "shock" the listener). But I see a lot of fascistic stuff coming out of Israel yeah, and the adoption of fascist aesthetics and attitude. This video is interesting (and has English subtitles) as it's a very jingoistic group of Israeli rappers (lumpen Mizrahi "Arsim") singing a war song with different dancers from across Israel's own internal cultural divide. So you have the secular Jews dressed up like the Nova festival but also religious Zionists wearing beards and their hair curled, and then also teenage girls wearing all black and their faces covered in skull masks.

This might be a more effective form of ultra-right nationalism. Like in the West, you have these different sects on the far left and far right try to do this "third positionist" thing. Either they're natsocs who try to win over disillusioned ex-Bernie supporters by adopting socialistic policies but making it racist, or they're MAGAcommies who try to win over rightists by beating up on LGBTs. None of this has really worked. But this kind of nationalism in Israel seems to unite both the secular left and the religious right.

>>2399471
>but a collaborationist economy based on forming a yeoman class with land captured from an exiled/killed/immiserated native population is a largely different
I have to point out, though, that a big Nazi project was Lebensraum which intended to do that and settle the territories with Aryan worker-farmer-soldiers.

>but these arent really mutually exclusive categorizes as much as they are just historically, circumstantially contingent expressions of the totality of capital's reproduction.

Good point.

>>2399496
>Kahanism could very well fit into third position ideologies, where organizations like Lehi could even be considered proto or predecessors to fourth political theory. But these distinctions are arbitrary
A lot of "red-brown" stuff are arbitrary, fringe things. Even back then, the "Canaanites" in Lehi were pretty fringe by the standards of the Yishuv. I ran across a name recently, Yehuda HaKohen, who came the closest to what I think that is. He's is an American-Israeli settler originally from Brooklyn who has been trying to fuse Zionism with some kind of anti-colonial/anti-imperialist thing (yeah I know) and has reportedly developed a cult following among some American Jewish students.

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>>2399536
>different sects on the far left and far right try to do this "third positionist" thing
Or to elaborate on what I'm thinking: these guys think they're sooooo clever. Bernie policies but racist! Homophobic communism! (You hard hats – who we secretly despise – like that, right???) No contradiction!

It's a bit too clever. The essence of this thing is the contradiction, and the force or energy by which it moves is not necessarily rational.

Zionism is inherently subordinate though. It is literally just colonialism out of it's time. With the quirk that the colonial power and the regional government pretend to be independent of each other.

>>2399575
I think you underestimate the nationalistic components of it. There is setter-colonialism, but if Israel was merely that, then I don't think it would've survived this long. It would've gone the way of French Algeria or Apartheid South Africa. I think the nationalism is stronger than that.

>>2399536
>I have to point out, though, that a big Nazi project was Lebensraum which intended to do that and settle the territories with Aryan worker-farmer-soldiers.

absolutely, nazism in general was trying to capture the dynamism it saw in british colonies and especially american imperial "manifest destiny." if by some unlikely freak accident the nazis had managed to settle a peace that included a big chunk of eastern europe and were able to exile and uproot the inhabitants without being prevented by external pressure, it could have been a pressure release value for many of the otherwise fatal contradictions of fascist economics. also interesting to note that the seizure of the properties of internal "enemies" being used as rewards for loyal party members or bid to off to "pure" germans sort of prefigured their colonial ambitions in miniature

>>2399577
yeah there is something very distinct about the way zionism is able to possess and animate the entire mythology & history of jews into a legitimizing narrative. thats definitely unique as far as not being "just" settler-colonialism. its a good point and the ethno-supremacy, ethno-exceptionalism, and delusional mysticized version of history (netanyahu claiming the palestinians told hitler to kill the jews lol) all are strong arguments that israel has a foot further in the door of recognizable fascism than other settler-colonial project.

which, again, isnt even necessarily a value judgement. the settlers of van diemens land had no issue fully and completely wiping out the tasmanian natives without fascism e.g.

>>2399614
>it could have been a pressure release value for many of the otherwise fatal contradictions of fascist economics.
Yep. From what I've read, the rural areas were overpopulated with a lot of Germans still working in labor-intensive agriculture (people don't realize how many people were still working the land with horse-drawn plows in the 1930s, including the U.S. and Canada like this pic, and Germany had a higher percentage of its population working in farms than them, France, and the U.K.). But the Nazis wanted to preserve private land ownership, so by Lebensraum, they could export the surplus farmhands to the east and turn them into settlers, and the larger land owners could then consolidate the smaller and less-efficient farms.

The settler-colonialism in the West Bank is also driven by religious settlers. But that's not the majority of them at this point. The majority, from what I've read, is everybody else now because housing prices are cheaper there.

>>2399622
>yeah there is something very distinct about the way zionism is able to possess and animate the entire mythology & history of jews into a legitimizing narrative.
Well you'll hear people say that the Zionists made a bunch of shit up about their nation. Which is true. But that's the whole history of nationalism. It always started with a relatively small group of elites who then popularized the idea over many decades. And they'd either invent myths or borrow them off the shelf to legitimize their "nation." It then requires certain historical and material conditions for it to take root among everybody else, and certain conjunctural historical events for the nationalists to declare independence and their nation to enter into "history" I suppose. And it's often among the masses for whom nationalism later becomes the most virulent. Some national movements don't quite make it or get blocked halfway like Quebec.

>that israel has a foot further in the door of recognizable fascism than other settler-colonial project.

I mean just watch that video. It's all skulls and flames. It looks very fascist to me. It's seductive. Is Israel a "fascist" regime? I dunno, but that ethic definitely exists there. I think you can say that the fascist regimes in the 20th century were manifestations of a reactionary potentiality in their time.

>which, again, isnt even necessarily a value judgement.

For me, I want to be able to gauge the thing with some degree of accuracy. After the Al-Aqsa Flood op, a lot of leftists who don't like Zionism were like, ah, Israel is finished now. They would also say it's fascist and modern-day Nazi Germany, but I don't know if they really believed that or would just say that to make a strong statement, because they drew an erroneous conclusion about what would happen based on their theory that it's just a settler-colonialist state. The issue with nationalism, however, is that people will fight and kill for it. I find it rather frightening, but my point is, they're not going to skedaddle that fast. If one base their strategy on a theory that it's merely settler-colonialism, then I think the strategy is going to have a major flaw. But they don't really study Israel. Or what Israelis think. What they think might be horrible. But people don't ask the question: how are Israelis going to react to this? They just believe Israelis will react how they want them to react, not how they will actually react. Maybe this is a strawman but I don't think so.

You also see Iran now leaning into Persian nationalism and mixing that together, because there are Iranians who don't like the clerics, but they are proud of being Persian and don't like being bombed by Israel.

>>2399659
i think another issue with the reductive reading of israels particular circumstances is that in the event of a palestinian victory, israelis would not nearly as readily and mostly voluntary leave as pied-noirs, or even boers. however much is vile and unforgivable in boer culture and history, theyve been there for hundreds of years and do have a distinct national identity and language related to the place, a mythology of their relation to the place, etc. so it makes sense theres still a strong core of boers in south africa despite so many going into exile, and i expect that even if south africa hadnt been so conciliatory thered still be those that stayed and maintained a reactionary resistance movement

and that boer identification with the land is NOWHERE near the literal eschatological identification with the land israelis have. and even the zionist settlers who retain some sanity probably look around at their fully deep end psychotic comrades and realize they may as well be all in while they have the upperhand. tho tbf that goes more for the militias & gangs actively participating in new settlements than the more metropolitan israelis who i have NO doubt would be satisfied just moving to jersey or berlin and whining about how unfair it is for the rest of their life

something else i thought of regarding OP's question >>2399450 is that there'd be a much different answer 30 years ago when israeli was still touted as "socialist" for having a lot of nationalized services & the memory of "labor zionism" was still alive both in israel and abroad. which is another aspect that, while not contradicting the basic settler-colonial dynamic of the zionist project, does distinguish it from other historical settler-colonies. in other settler-colonies, the abundance of land and demand for various types of labor were themselves the "social" aspect, with government "assistance" being basically intervention to build infrastructure and finish the wars settlers started with the natives. but from the beginning zionism in the levant had this prominent social utopian strain, the kibbutz being its flagship project but also a social safety net and nationalized industries. there is definitely something there resembling "classical fascism" if not nazism, in that mobilization and positive cooperation of labor was seen as a pillar of the project. its end was always collaboration with capital for "the good of the nation" but in its ideological components you get the sense that italian fascism, integralism, etc at least thought of themselves as genuinely aspiring to a productive unity of labor & capital, something that as far as i know was alien to nazism which treated that aspect much more cynically (at least after the rohm/strasser purges)

>>2399728
>and even the zionist settlers who retain some sanity probably look around at their fully deep end psychotic comrades and realize they may as well be all in while they have the upperhand. tho tbf that goes more for the militias & gangs actively participating in new settlements
BTW, from what I can discern in terms of the social background of those gangs (the Jewish religious settler gangs that will terrorize Palestinians) is that a lot of them come from a lumpen background. They can be runaway kids. It sounds like the kind of guys who'd run off and join a neo-Nazi skinhead gang.

>than the more metropolitan israelis who i have NO doubt would be satisfied just moving to jersey or berlin and whining about how unfair it is for the rest of their life

I'm sure they exist but the other factor is the large-scale militarization of the society. It socializes people but also brutalizes them. But also to what extent does the military cut across society as a form of social "infrastructure." It's like when Israel goes to war, EVERYONE goes to war. Practically speaking. The people who don't are yeshiva students.

Aaaand I just came across this new bit of propaganda from the Kfir Brigade. (The music is a curious blend of Russian/Ukrainian-Jewish folk music and hip-hop.) The vibe I get from this stuff is more like Armenian or Serbian nationalist turbofolk.

In Israel they're called "hilltop youth" (I think that's a literal translation) but they really are the Israeli equivalant of 4chan incel weirdos. They get into Kahanism.


>>2399890
>>2399904
yeah im familiar. its funny bc this is more or less what the mythologized settler "frontier" is all about, its just much less romantic when you see that the desperate and maladjusted people that make up the settler vanguard are, in fact, desperate and maladjusted people. schlomo vile has more in common with the average manifest destiny settler than whatever john wayne caricature people imagine. would just have to be the mormon variety instead of the prospector variety

>>2399450
Nazism could be considered the NEW Zionism. One is older than other.

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>>2399917
Also on the military angle.

>>2399904
These are literally half of 4chan's userbase btw

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>>2399450
join a club they said

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>>2402334
More likely than you think!

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>>2403954
>>2402302
There was a great interview I saw of former fash and one of them was FtM and joined a neo-nazi org to try and validate their masculinity and no-one even noticed.
The bottom line is that contemporary neo-nazism recruitment tactics are largely focused on alienated autistic nerds. Even despite nazism's antisocial goals and the hurdles that presents to them, they're recruiting outsiders and clearly presenting themselves as an outside force to the communities they try to advertise themselves to.
They might be able to do harm, but they simply cannot succeed in their basic goals, mechanically. They're smearing optics on a pig.


>does the phrase "Israel are the new nazis" have any actual merit?
<Nazis: innovated IBM holocaust technology
<Zionists: innovated AI generated holocaust technology
So now when people see that sort of praxis, their first thought won't be "that's some nazi shit, are you German?", they will simply call you a Zionist Jew.
>Ukraine and Israel, who supposedly make up the 5th reich
No they're both are proxy states of the Fourth Reich (USA)

>>2399917
>schlomo vile has more in common with the average manifest destiny settler than whatever john wayne caricature people imagine.
Did you know that the Jewish Hollywood guy John Milius's first movie was about a cannibal settler? Really makes you think lmao:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver-Eating_Johnson

see also this cannibal settler serial killer who praised the Confederacy with his dying breaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boone_Helm

yes, obviously

>>2399622
> yeah there is something very distinct about the way zionism is able to possess and animate the entire mythology & history of jews into a legitimizing narrative. thats definitely unique as far as not being "just" settler-colonialism
No it's just Calvinist replacement theology with a Jewish coat of paint. America as the new Israel is very much manifest destiny.

>>2407338
the territory that would become the US was already being settled for over 200 years before the "great awakening" that most resembles contemporary evangelism. yes there were the puritans and theres continuity there. but on the whole the settlers of both the 13 colonies and manifest destiny eras were much more doctrinally heterogenous. im not saying theres no parallel but were starting from a point of agreement that israel is a settler-colony like the US, i just think it is distinct in that it a fairly consistent ethno-nationalist and doctrinal background ("being jewish") that is the preexisting basis of unity, as compared with american settlement in which there was no comparable white or american identity besides the one that arose through a long process of previously heavily differentiated european settlers.

>>2407344
Yeah that fair. I suppose I would say that Israel speed ran much of the development and decay of a settler-colony. Israel is America in microcosm.


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