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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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Why do third worldists completely ignore the entirely unique forms of repression workers in the imperial core face? The level of chemical butchery in the imperial core is just astounding.
174 posts and 12 image replies omitted.

>>2402098
and also that things don't have concrete definitions either, such terms are naturally gonna have definitional outliers that are still considered one or the other in spite of the fact they don't cleanly meet the definition

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This is like watching a section ("caucus") of DSA realize they're not the real thing. Like DUH??? You're within a fucking succdem demsucc party???

>>2402103
No wonder nothing gets done here

>>2402096
Getting rid of the explicitly anticommunist ideologies isn’t a perfect fix because you’ll still have some Trotskytards and other revisionists claiming exemption and shitting the place up, but at least they’re more tolerable than anarkkkists

>>2402103
It’s not a political party though, that’s the whole point since political parties don’t exist in the United States. Republicans and Democrats are not political parties, you don’t pay dues, you don’t get a membership card, they don’t write manifestos nor do they ideologically discipline their members.

>>2402106
i would rather 25 anarchists than 1 z-oid

>>2402107
The platform itself is subversive, the same with the splitters which will not be named because they're about just the same. NOTHING gets done here compared to other imageboards which have become household names by this point.

>>2402107
The DSA is just a social club for mentally ill fascists in denial, like the rest of the so called “revolutionary” left in America

>>2402108
Kiev is Russian

>>2402114
nope, they are cities of the proletarians, not of your wholesome bourgeois state

>>2402115
More leftoid nonsense attempting to downplay a literal Nazi bandit state occupying Russian land. But according to Misato tards such as yourself have more of a right to be here than communists do

>>2402118
i care little about the russian state's goals, this should be a communist website, and a communist website should care preciously few about your wholesome bourgeois state

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>>2402115
Yes the proletarians within the composite of the bourgeois state of RuZZia which is ultimately LE LESSER EVIL. It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm

You VILL side with SVO and the conservative or bourgeois socialist currents which uphold the lesser evilisms of Za world! You VILL join WAGNER during WW3! You VILL find comradery within the real movement of the present state of things of ziggas.

>>2402127
no sir i don't think i will, i want communism NOW

>>2402124
You should care because communism is the real movement which submilates the current state of things and in the 21st century this is represented by the decline of imperialism and the rise of a multipolar world order led by China and Russia. We’re not dealing with abstract ideals but the real world as it actually works

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>>2402127
Dear REAL COMMUNINISTS, read DUGIN, your movement will not commence anytime soon, while EVRAZZIA shakes the weSSt and LIQUIDATES IT!
>>2402130
Its not happening, sorry bro, settle for a realistic option like communist aesthetics <<в составе Россия>>.

>>2402133
Notice how when the anarchist is thoroughly embarrassed he resorts to strawmanning his opponents all while using blatantly racist caricatures
Leftypol indeed

>>2402134
what the hell are you talking about?
>>2402132
no i don't think i will

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>>2402108
How about 1 confused anarchist ММА FIGHTER and all the Z gangstas in KPRF <<соцдем в составе Россия >>?

>>2402139
You are neither a Marxist or a communist

>>2402134
I noticed bro, but he will accept the SVO one day when we GLOBALIZE THE SVO! Eurasia <<EVRAZZIA>> WILL COMMENCE WITH RUSSIA <<RUZZIA>> И КИТАЙ <<CHINA>> IN A SINO-SLAVIC UNITY OF PEOPLES! THE FOURTH POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WILL COMMENCE IMMIDIATELY WITH THE FIFTH!
Z

>>2402141
The KPRF are anarchist too they abolished the state in 1991

>>2402147
TRVTH NVKE, anarchoids should support the SVO just as the support the intifada

>>2402145
Vidrel is why leftypol exists, if you don't like it then get out, its in the name - /lefty POL/ wuz called leftpol back in da good old dayZ of NAZBOL gangstas

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>>2402152
I'm SERIOUS, it WAS LEFT WING OF /POL/

>>2402166
Yes and the name is a holdover from this site’s prior affiliation with fascists anarchists and other leftist scum that were purged approximately eight years ago

>>2402170
>anarchists
it was just the rojavafags scandal, not all anarchoids are rojavafags trust me vro

Neva forgit da leftypoller on HWNDU

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>>2402176
mucho LULZ were there

>>2401598
Well there's a simple answer to that, Many Maoist Third Worldists are actually unwitting stooges of the FBI to try to stifle actual socialist thought in America and the first world by doing some spooky pseudo-christian morality to try to make people feel guilty over stuff they never had a hand in doing.

Not to mention that J. Sakai was definitely a FBI plant doing COINTELPRO with his Settlers book. He did many misinterpretations about Foster of the IWW.

>>2402213
You'd think Maoists would all be over the psychiatric oppression of the Black community. I suppose that would require acknowledging the psychiatric oppression of queer people and apparently homosexuality is bourgeois decadence.

I thought it would be interesting to see a third-worldist perspective on works like Robert Chapman's "Empire of Normality" anyhow.

>>2402242
I do want to add that I think.forms of market socialism are required to industrialize lumpenized communities. I think neoliberal idpol is stupid but it makes more sense when you think about the industrialization of housing and domestic labor. It's a perversion of Angela Davis sort of stuff. But IMO in the current stagnant era of monopoly capital only the proletariat can push forward with industrializing areas such as housing, child care and agriculture. The bourgeoise are unwilling to innovate and create technological/industrial progress in those areas that need it most.

>>2401762
>When national identity and the good nations vs the evil nations and the state and the citizen are one is my actual understanding of the world

Turd worldists 🤝 Hitlerites 🤝 Liberals

>>2401774
Chemical pollution and most foods being essentially poisonous isn’t abstract

>>2401788
Please read Marx specifically the Political and Philosophical Manuscripts where he turns around the question of good economic periods for the proletariat and concludes wages can firstly only rise if the extraction of surplus value is secured much more closely, and high wage periods just set up the stage for deepening poverty when crisis strikes again, this has literally been true for the entire western working class, only turd worldists, being cynical hitlerites that confused themselves for Marxists because, peculiar for a hitlerite, they hate the West and white people, instead of analyzing the fate of western proletarians (despite often being western proletarians) just take bitter schadenfreude in workers they utterly despised becoming poorer
>>2401796
The labor aristocracy doesn’t refer to proles who aren’t dirt poor, it specifically referred to the leaders of the labor movement who had a vested interest in collaborating with their imperialist rulers because they had a greater chance at maintaining their own position as the heads of the labor movement by negotiating a settlement between labor and capital that secured continued surplus value extraction while setting up the government to stabilize some of the worst iniquities of capitalism to quell the worker’s revolutionary activities
>>2401802
These moralizing garbage rants don’t understand Marx fucking at all, you may as well say it doesn’t apply to *any* worker. The chain is not poverty, it is the wage itself, the worker’s chain is their reliance on the wage and therefore submission to capital simply to survive. Not only is this true in the West, it is so true that possibly the majority of western labor are technically involved in non-productive labor that does not technically generate surplus value in the form of a physical good, however the Western governments nevertheless force these people to work and in fact has sought to dismantle the state handled welfare systems for fifty years now, bit by bit

The chain the worker is subdued by is the wage itself

>>2402686
That's not what unproductive labor means, it's literally just unprofitable labor. If doing paperwork is profitable then it's profitable labor.

>>2401793
>class interest is or that at least it is not the same as immediate material interest
Even Marx and Engels connected the two, read Marx's draft of Principles. They saw proletarian revolution as inevitable exactly because capitalism would exponentially immiserate an exponentially larger proletariat. That has not happened in the first world.

>>2402213
>actually unwitting stooges of the FBI to try to stifle actual socialist thought in America
<thought
Go lecture your slaves in your nazi ghettos sweety, I'm sure they'll love to hear your epic redditor theories about universalism
>spooky pseudo-christian morality to try to make people feel guilty over stuff they never had a hand in doing.
Israeli settlers: "Hamas are brutally violent, like the Cossacks, who oppress innocent white workers! Why do you deny our right to defend ourselves from the terror?"

>>2401776
So you deny class warfare as primary contradiction

>marx: the proletariat is immiserated and the question of class is a matter of mere survival
<leftards: le Workers(tm) have to put aside class interests during matters of mere survival!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cool

>>2402900
AFAIK it wasn't because of the immiseration which isn't as much a measurable thing but because of the economic crises would lead to total impossibly of continuation. The misery is a byproduct.

why do you use fascist slurs like "third worldist" against your fellow comrades

>>2402900
>They saw proletarian revolution as inevitable exactly because capitalism would exponentially immiserate an exponentially larger proletariat
they never saw the revolution as inevitable. they never had this linearist conception of history. you've not read the german ideology. go read it.

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>>2401598
I think there is a confusion among some first world communists who cannot imagine an anti-imperialist position following their own class interests, regressing them to some moralistic position of blaming an identitarian privilege to blame other workers for remaining passive as an alternative to liberalism, reformism and other types of class conciliation instead of fighting together with the workers of the world so that the rate of profit of the imperialist capitalists falls more quickly and this is not contradictory to fighting for the labor rights of native and immigrant workers along with solidarity in not tolerating imperialist exploitation in the world outside the country that will eventually be used for pacification, co-optation, bribery and repression to intensify exploitation.

>>2401802
>>2401803
The labor aristocracy is a small minority where some class traitors opportunistically try to co-opt workers so that they do not organize and have solidarity among themselves, leading to an ideology of class conciliation with the national bourgeoisie that deceives workers to weaken the movement collectively.

The communist movement is not a proletarian identity but a radical movement for the proletarian class to gain supremacy in order to abolish private property and profit, thereby abolishing social classes and the proletariat as a proletariat to be organized by the community on a common plan as workers. The working class is the most revolutionary and needs a movement independent of the bourgeoisie, but this movement has to be from the perspective of the revolutionary class so that the other working classes that do not have a direct connection with the means of production can act with what they have in common with the revolutionary class to socialize and advance the movement and not get into anarchist or reformist confusion of class conciliation.

All other classes can become communists if they do not forget the perspective they are fighting for and they must act with what they have in common with the radical movement of the working class to abolish the present state of things so that there is no confusion, therefore you have intellectuals who will serve the proletarian class to assume power, together with the other working classes who recognize their interest in the supremacy of the proletariat. The capitalist class can become communist if it becomes a class traitor for the destruction of its class and sees an interest in the emancipation of humanity and the end of the exploitation of man by man in the future.

The labor aristocracy is a type of representative of the working class that weakens the workers' movement with the opportunism of class conciliation to deceive and divide them, I think it is very likely that the criticism for unions with the co-opted leadership to betray the working class applies in this definition as a type of class traitor. Remembering that the bribe that the capitalist offers is optional as a concession tactic along with repression to facilitate the exploitation of capital.

Let's see what Lenin have to say about the labor aristocracy:

<In a letter to Marx, dated October 7, 1858, Engels wrote: “…The English proletariat is actually becoming more and more bourgeois, so that this most bourgeois of all nations is apparently aiming ultimately at the possession of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat alongside the bourgeoisie. For a nation which exploits the whole world this is of course to a certain extent justifiable.” In a letter to Sorge, dated September 21, 1872, Engels informs him that Hales kicked up a big row in the Federal Council of the International and secured a vote of censure on Marx for saying that “the English labour leaders had sold themselves”. Marx wrote to Sorge on August 4, 1874: “As to the urban workers here [in England], it is a pity that the whole pack of leaders did not get into Parliament. This would be the surest way of getting rid of the whole lot.” In a letter to Marx, dated August 11, 1881, Engels speaks about “those very worst English trade unions which allow themselves to be led by men sold to, or at least paid by, the bourgeoisie.” In a letter to Kautsky, dated September 12, 1882, Engels wrote: “You ask me what the English workers think about colonial policy. Well, exactly the same as they think about politics in general. There is no workers’ party here, there are only Conservatives and Liberal-Radicals, and the workers gaily share the feast of England’s monopoly of the world market and the colonies.”


<On December 7, 1889, Engels wrote to Sorge: “The most repulsive thing here [in England] is the bourgeois ‘respectability’, which has grown deep into the bones of the workers…. Even Tom Mann, whom I regard as the best of the lot, is fond of mentioning that he will be lunching with the Lord Mayor. If one compares this with the French, one realises, what a revolution is good for, after all.”[10] In a letter, dated April 19, 1890: “But under the surface the movement [of the working class in England] is going on, is embracing ever wider sections and mostly just among the hitherto stagnant lowest [Engels’s italics] strata. The day is no longer far off when this mass will suddenly find itself, when it will dawn upon it that it itself is this colossal mass in motion.” On March 4, 1891: “The failure of the collapsed Dockers’ Union; the ‘old’ conservative trade unions, rich and therefore cowardly, remain lone on the field….” September 14, 1891: at the Newcastle Trade Union Congress the old unionists, opponents of the eight-hour day, were defeated “and the bourgeois papers recognise the defeat of the bourgeois labour party” (Engels’s italics throughout)….


<That these ideas, which were repeated by Engels over the course of decades, were so expressed by him publicly, in the press, is proved by his preface to the second edition of The Condition of the Working Class in England, 1892. Here he speaks of an “aristocracy among the working class”, of a “privileged minority of the workers”, in contradistinction to the “great mass of working people”. “A small, privileged, protected minority” of the working class alone was “permanently benefited” by the privileged position of England in 1848–68, whereas “the great bulk of them experienced at best but a temporary improvement”…. “With the break-down of that [England’s industrial] monopoly, the English working class will lose that privileged position…” The members of the “new” unions, the unions of the unskilled workers, “had this immense advantage, that their minds were virgin soil, entirely free from the inherited ‘respectable’ bourgeois prejudices which hampered the brains of the better situated ‘old unionists’” …. “The so-called workers’ representatives” in England are people “who are forgiven their being members of the working class because they themselves would like to drown their quality of being workers in the ocean of their liberalism…”


[…]

<The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of “its” workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million. And how this little sop is divided among the labour ministers, “labour representatives” (remember Engels’s splendid analysis of the term), labour members of War Industries Committees, labour officials, workers belonging to the narrow craft unions, office employees, etc., etc., is a secondary question.


[…]

<The last third of the nineteenth century saw the transition to the new, imperialist era. Finance capital not of one, but of several, though very few, Great Powers enjoys a monopoly. (In Japan and Russia the monopoly of military power, vast territories, or special facilities for robbing minority nationalities, China, etc., partly supplements, partly takes the place of, the monopoly of modern, up-to-date finance capital.) This difference explains why England’s monopoly position could remain unchallenged for decades. The monopoly of modern finance capital is being frantically challenged; the era of imperialist wars has begun. It was possible in those days to bribe and corrupt the working class of one country for decades. This is now improbable, if not impossible. But on the other hand, every imperialist “Great” Power can and does bribe smaller strata (than in England in 1848–68) of the “labour aristocracy”. Formerly a “bourgeois labour party”, to use Engels’s remarkably profound expression, could arise only in one country, because it alone enjoyed a monopoly, but, on the other hand, it could exist for a long time. Now a “bourgeois labour party” is inevitable and typical in all imperialist countries; but in view of the desperate struggle they are waging for the division of spoils it is improbable that such a party can prevail for long in a number of countries. For the trusts, the financial oligarchy, high prices, etc., while enabling the bribery of a handful in the top layers, are increasingly oppressing, crushing, ruining and torturing the mass of the proletariat and the semi-proletariat.


[…]

<On the economic basis referred to above, the political institutions of modern capitalism—press, parliament associations, congresses etc.—have created political privileges and sops for the respectful, meek, reformist and patriotic office employees and workers, corresponding to the economic privileges and sops. Lucrative and soft jobs in the government or on the war industries committees, in parliament and on diverse committees, on the editorial staffs of “respectable”, legally published newspapers or on the management councils of no less respectable and “bourgeois law-abiding” trade unions—this is the bait by which the imperialist bourgeoisie attracts and rewards the representatives and supporters of the “bourgeois labour parties”.


<One of the most common sophistries of Kautskyism is its reference to the “masses”. We do not want, they say, to break away from the masses and mass organisations! But just think how Engels put the question. In the nineteenth century the “mass organisations” of the English trade unions were on the side of the bourgeois labour party. Marx and Engels did not reconcile themselves to it on this ground; they exposed it. They did not forget, firstly, that the trade union organisations directly embraced a minority of the proletariat. In England then, as in Germany now, not more than one-fifth of the proletariat was organised. No one can seriously think it possible to organise the majority of the proletariat under capitalism. Secondly—and this is the main point—it is not so much a question of the size of an organisation, as of the real, objective significance of its policy: does its policy represent the masses, does it serve them, i.e., does it aim at their liberation from capitalism, or does it represent the interests of the minority, the minority’s reconciliation with capitalism? The latter was true of England in the nineteenth century, and it is true of Germany, etc., now.


<Engels draws a distinction between the “bourgeois labour party” of the old trade unions—the privileged minority—and the “lowest mass”, the real majority, and appeals to the latter, who are not infected by “bourgeois respectability”. This is the essence of Marxist tactics!


<Neither we nor anyone else can calculate precisely what portion of the proletariat is following and will follow the social-chauvinists and opportunists. This will be revealed only by the struggle, it will be definitely decided only by the socialist revolution. But we know for certain that the “defenders of the fatherland” in the imperialist war represent only a minority. And it is therefore our duty, if we wish to remain socialists to go down lower and deeper, to the real masses; this is the whole meaning and the whole purport of the struggle against opportunism. By exposing the fact that the opportunists and social-chauvinists are in reality betraying and selling the interests of the masses, that they are defending the temporary privileges of a minority of the workers, that they are the vehicles of bourgeois ideas and influences, that they are really allies and agents of the bourgeoisie, we teach the masses to appreciate their true political interests, to fight for socialism and for the revolution through all the long and painful vicissitudes of imperialist wars and imperialist armistices.


<The only Marxist line in the world labour movement is to explain to the masses the inevitability and necessity of breaking with opportunism, to educate them for revolution by waging a relentless struggle against opportunism, to utilise the experience of the war to expose, not conceal, the utter vileness of national-liberal labour politics.


<V.I. Lenin, “Imperialism and the Split in Socialism”


Source: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/oct/x01.htm

>>2402669
三位一体


>>2403659
>Scribbly lines
<Google translate

>>2403147
>Maoid has no response but national chauvinism
Typical
Why don’t you fucking faggots ever go be a guerrilla with the noble savages instead of posting on the internet about how badly you want to murder your neighbors?

>>2401762
>you
damn bro im just selling bread


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