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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Not reporting is bourgeois


 

My understanding is that the falling rate of profit is caused by capitalists taking on technical upgrades to the detriment of profit simply to gain market share.

However, I am confused as to whether this is empirically true. Whilst there are certainly studies that seem to show this, I find a lot of the methodology weird and hard to understand personally. If I consider an analogue that is actually comprehensible to me, like return on investment, it seems to maybe(?) fall modestly over time. What is the best analgoue for measuring rate of profit and why?

The machinery gives a momentary advantage to the capitalist that adopts it, then as the rest of the industry catches up, more maintenance means less profits
Rinse repeat

the rate of profit falling should coincide with a reduction of real prices, which seems to be the case for most products, but not for others. the cost of technology has drastically decreased due to high rates of competition, while other industries like housing fall behind due to monopoly influence and regulation - for example, its illegal to build shelter for housing accomodation on your own land without government permission (for example: vidrel). its also illegal to even have alternative forms of housing lime sleeping in an automobile, in some cases. so, the government dont care if you sleep on the street, but care if you sleep in an unregulated shelter - this contributes to higher prices for homes in the market.

>>2426498
yeah I'm on board w this sure but I want empirical proof that the economy has been adopting essentially unnecessary technology (I agree w this intuitively and obviously one has to be retarded not to, I just want numbers)

>>2426502
oh man sometimes when i feel doomer i look at offgrid vids and get the same feeling this vid gives me

nice ted kaczynski hut btw

>>2426505
rory sutherland once said that a solution to housing in britain would be to adopt an equivalent of trailer parks, and he's right. if normal housing is expensive, then cheap alternatives should exist. and not everyone wants to be locked in a single residence for 20 years either.

>>2426503
Oh the machinery is fine, you can do wonders with it if you know what you're doing; the problem is that capitalism just doesn't work once you pile up enough machinery

>>2426513
can you explain to me like im an idiot who only understands accumulation in the context of minecraft tech mods

>>2426509
thats what council housing was supposed to be for…

>>2426520
That is a little difficult since I'm not into mine craft, but OK

So, I think you can make pretty complex mechanisms in mine craft with mods, yeah?

If you were to add a new mod and it replaced some special blocks and wrecked the mechanism then that's a fair bit of repair work of you fiddling with the mechanism to make it work again during which it's not producing anything

Now imagine what you're producing in mine craft with that mechanism makes real money

As long as nobody else using that mechanism upgrades to a faster mechanism it's all good, but once someone does take the time and resources to do the mod upgrade they are now producing the same resource faster, which means they can undercut you sell for less money and take more of the difference, so of course everybody else upgrades to the new mod

Now we're back to square one

Now you know how machinery in the real world actually just breaks sometimes, especially if it's not maintained, imagine all that happening in minecraft

>>2426520
machines outcompete workers by being more productive at a lesser cost; this leads to (1) unemployment and (2) cheaper overall output. cheaper output means a lesser rate on return from input: lower prices = lower profits. unemployment = less consumption = lower profits. this is why governments distribute benefits to the unemployed from the working class back toward capitalists via consumption, as a form of de facto exploitation - the same way monetary inflation acts as a tax on labour.
>>2426522
i currently live in a £30 tent and its very cozy. saves me the price of a mortgage and if anything gets broken i can replace it.

>>2426534
>i currently live in a £30 tent
How do you deal with hygiene and cooking and stuff like that?

>>2426534
so you like squat? is it legal?

https://people.umass.edu/dbasu/Papers/CapMeasure_MECA_Preprint.pdf

I found this paper that kinda explains the diff between HC and RC measurements for rate of profit, which is basically the diff between 'rate of profit' and return on invested capital i guess

>>2426544
technically illegal - but i'll be alright
>>2426543
i dont cook food, and i wash myself with a cloth. its rather efficient.

I will not lie my uyghurs, I do not care how the rate of profit is doing or how up or down turn it gets, I just want capitalism to end either way.

>>2426546

How much wealth have you built by saving with your method?

>>2426550
just subtract current housing costs from any relative mortgage or rent payments. of course, this method only works if you plan to live alone.

>>2426502
Why did you post that video?
Now I feel bloodcurdling RAGE

>>2426534
There is a short presentation by Maupin that walks through the precise mathematics here, if anybody has it to hand?

Yes, that's why things like offshoring and speculation are so common today. Just look at Elon Musk. Despite being the richest man on the planet, he doesn't have much liquidity. Much of his wealth is not based on producing anything tangible, but rather on finance.

>>2426546
so based of you. i wanna do a post asking about ways people avoid feeding into the consumerist machine (if they do that) that's really awesome

>>2426534
>>2426577
Here we go, found it

>>2426520
From my understanding

Capitalist adopts machines that increased production > increase production allows the capitalist to undercut competition > capitalist begins monopolize the market share > monopoly begins to enter death spiral as demand decreases due to overproduction of the product. To recoup profits the capitalist begins to raise prices and cut labor cost > this accelerates the death spiral > market crashes.

Coincidently Maupin has just published yet another book on this topic, and has done a audio reading
https://youtu.be/YIDqT05hMww

>>2426594
>>2426684
Oh joy, another bot pushing Mr. Spanky's videos.

>>2426697
If only I were; then I would tirelessly go find another video to walk through the maths for your benefit since you have a problem with that source

Unfortunately, I am all too human and frail so will try to make an effort to post more sources here, but can not guarantee it

Is there anything else you would like to delve into?

>>2426684
I don’t really like to see AI gen trash on my board. Call it whatever you want I really do not think I will click it if the author didn’t even bother to put in the work to make their art themselves.

nice bait idiot

>>2426733
Very good, please post your sources so I can waste yet another decent chunk of an hour reviewing the math from yet another source

Don't be shy, it would be a pleasure, far more interesting than wading through all these presentations I should be watching right now

>>2426740
Math for what?

>>2426736
Yeah I think you could make this argument for shit on a canvas

>>2426738
It’s not bait. Sorry if I’m being retarded about something that’s obvious to the rest of you. I just have some trouble understanding the numbers

>>2426747
Accuracy, I spent 40 minutes of my life listening to Maupin read his book making sure he was getting the mathematics correct before I posted that source

globally? it tends to.
locally? the picture is more complicated.
Countervailing tendencies? Many.
What restores falling profit rates? War. The deliberate destruction of the productive forces.
Reading recommendations? Chapter 3 of Fascism and Social Revolution by Rajani Palme Dutt (really the whole book but especially this chapter)

File: 1754854983350.jpg (32.46 KB, 330x500, 9780853459408-us.jpg)

>>2426495
IMO it's sort of true but innovation is more adopted to crush the working class than to outcompete other capitalists. Capitalists regularly collude to hold back progress and prefer extracting labor monopsony rents (think Banana Republic) over innovating. Capitalists were only forced to offshore and industrialize China because workers were unionizing in the West. The PRC is built on top of Western trade unions.

So IMO the rate of profit has a tendency to fall as a result of worker resistance. It's kind of like how striking for a smaller work-week led to capitalists improving technology to compensate.

>>2426495
>is the rate of profit *actually* falling?
Its still up to debate but I'm personally leaning towards this hypothesis being a cope. Marx was not some kind of holy prophet who knew everything.

>>2426943
Nope, the secular trend is confirmed in the figures

>>2426943
Wouldn't there need to be a vast and unlimited store of capital and ever more efficient means of collecting and concentrating it for the rate of profit to not be falling

>>2426753
accuracy of what i just dont like ai crap and dont wanna click on it

>>2427066
Well you'll have to throw out a fair chunk of the western curriculum on that count

>>2426943
The issue with Marx is that he was too optimist with the timings

>>2426502
FIRE sector profits aren't real profits, they're arbitrage, interests, and rents

Today I learned that profits in a pefect competitive market goes towards zero in the long run, what the fuck?

>>2427090
With profit being a zero sum game, eventually someone ends up with all the profit.

>>2427090
Rate of profit, not absolute profit.

>>2427075
curriculum of what i have no idea what youre talking about


>>2427242
Text books, chuck them out full of errors; what I'm getting at is that chat bots are full of errors sure, I really like how suspicious people are of their output

The problem is that this notion of some kind of romantic notion of a mythical pre chat bot non slop production

Nope it's mostly slop, you should be examining it as critically as you have to examine what the chatbot throws at you

>>2426736
>a tool
(Petscop kid voice) "TURN OFF LEFTYPOL SERVERS. ERIK HOUDINI PICKS UP TOOL, HURTS ME WHEN YOU POST CRINGE"

>>2427277
The art’s just ugly and lazy that’s all

>>2426815
Probably relevant to this

>>2426815
Why is everyone using AI on this website now.

Wolfe also just covered this

>>2428089
Because this board is full of techbros who fetishize being a prole in a 50s steel factory

>>2431921
That OC was probably not AI, the formatting chatbots use and the formatting the site does is different; you could guide the clanker through it, but why would you, if you can write copy that tight you can just hammer it out

>>2426553
Yes, but I am asking you. How much have you managed to save?

>>2428089
…. dude wtf. my answer to you wasn't AI. why do you think my answer was AI? is it because I used the bold format that has always been available on here? did you even read what I said? my shit doesn't even look like AI. LLM answers have perfect grammar and I actually had lower case in the sentence openings. AI also gives you bullet pointed answers that are way too long and I gave you a really short answer off the top of my head. It's actually incredibly frustrating that you thought my really short sweet and to the point answer was AI. Also the audiobook I gave you is read out loud by a real human if that's what you're accusing of being AI.

>>2431921
it wasn't AI

>>2431924
Correct

I really fucking hate that when I bother to write anything on here that isn't outright hostility or retardation it gets dismissed as "AI" now. makes me fucking mad. like I get that people under 20 grew up never learning how to handle a keyboard and think that typing a few sentences is a monumental effort because they only have two thumbs to do it with, but god damn.

File: 1755244465116.png (468.85 KB, 866x527, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2427078
> he was too optimist with the timings
meanwhile Deng Chadping understood that it may take centuries

File: 1755247632199.jpg (68.54 KB, 1124x736, uix87u90pi3a1.jpg)

>>2426495
I don't think capitalism was ever about profit. That's just the shit they told you in school.

A friend of mine whose a historian compared fascism itself to trolling as an ideology or at least political strategy. It doesn't really have an end goal, it's just fueled by kneejerk reactions from opponents and sympathizers alike and sees how far they can push the envelope in distorting and abusing the system they live under. Quite praxis really. Too bad it's being used for racism instead of like, putting a bullet in Elon's head.

Anywho, capitalism in itself is trolling. I don't know if you're a pampered little Trotsky-shit or a bathhouse ACP member, but as someone who has worked wagie jobs I can tell you management is some of the most retarded motherfuckers on this planet who have no intention to make money. They wanna demoralize, humiliate, and punish. That's it. That's all anybody ever fucking does and Ted Kacensky spoke of it in over socialization but imma take it a step further that that's quintessentially the normie pathology.

They are pathologically moralism outrages and another form of trolling. Their entire lives revolve around making you miserable knowing you're not gonna slit their throat. Whether do to fears of reprisal by their justice system, (which is mostly fabricated too as half of it is propaganda and those court systems are full of retards as well), whether do to you deep down don't wanna hurt people. (I don't either. Not because I don't enjoy it. I do. I like seeing people in pain, but I also don't like doing work. And who makes me do more work? Que? QUE???)

TLDR; Nothing surrounding capitalism has ever hinted to being about maximizing profit it's about maximizing misery so just kill people to end the misery. That's the essence of Anarcho Stalinism. Just kill people. Killing people is cool. Killing me is slightly less cool, don't be cringe bro. Kill moderators.

>>2426594
no way this guy just tries to pass off the Iron Law of Wages as anything to do with overproduction or the falling rate of profit its literally the Lassalle meme. READ MARX!!!

Cockshott has a video explaining tfrop

>>2434377
It's the same kind of maths marx used in other sections of Capital, there's a specific term for it, linear something, applied to Marx's argument for the falling rate of profit
>>2434519
Not to self and request for others to link it here

>>2427764
as is most shit in general

>>2434529
Here's one, since I was considering rewriting that post, so I might as well make the effort to find one

>>2434531
Yeah that's why I prefer going by the maths instead of worrying about specifics

>>2434532
Ooh, yes this one is good once you've covered the basics of why the tendency is to fall

At 11:20 he uses the example of productivity rising because of technology, and he uses the examples of the US and UK as plausible examples where this will result in cheaper goods, it's a plausible inductive assumption

Empirically, now in retrospect something that appears to be happening as technology improves is that prices appear to be going up in America and down in China

I'm convinced of the TRPF, but strong emphasis on the T because when shit falls too much they just start a war, which destroys both workers and means of production.

>>2434539
I do think people don't significantly account for the stagnating aspects of highly developed capital. Porkies buy up patents and sit on them, oil porkies suppress nuclear power, imperialists suppress the industrialization of the periphery.

I think there's still a tendency for the rate of profit to fall but that the workers need to give it a push (fights for national liberation, etc…). I'm still not sure of the details here though.

>>2434583
>stagnating aspects of highly developed capital. Porkies buy up patents and sit on them, oil porkies suppress nuclear power, imperialists suppress the industrialization of the periphery.
these are not just ways to prevent the profit rate falling further, but reactions to the profit rate having already fallen somewhat. Someone else also mentioned sitting on patents, but in a different thread >>2433830

File: 1755340709295.jpg (25.9 KB, 634x381, YRe8Enp.jpg)

>>2434539
war is increasingly difficult to arrange due to nooks
on the other hand nuclear war would destroy so much fixed capital, pushing up the RoP, that I suspect it is inevitable

I think trying to prove the falling rate of profit is a moot project at this point because it's literally impossible to calculate with the fourth industrial revolution and the rent economy. Attempts made such as by Michael Roberts are mostly just based on classic industrial scales. Also there is China now which is a whole different can of worms with its heavily state-interventionist model.

Past a certain point there isn't a point proving it, it just is

Cockshott on India and the falling rate of profit


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