/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2443670
so nick fuentes is antisemitic? you can say it with your chest now?

>>2443569
makes you wonder why anti-zionists put so much emphasis on this conflict when its the enlightened westerners who have butchered the planet. 🤔 not to mention the fact that millions in the east are currently being sacrificed by NATO as the martyrs of a brother war, yet no one seems half as mad about that.

>>2443678
Famine officially declared in Gaza

>>2443563
people get accused of stuff they didn't do all the time, the Dreyfus affair generated an international ruckus, so it's kind of a self-own if you think it's a good example of Jews never having high leverage on western society.

>>2443565
>they determined it to be their own interests to sign off a part of the world to a Jewish state
weird how that never happened with any other ethnicity. As I know it the Anglos were in the habit of doing the colonizing themselves.

>>2440139
Not a single soul said that until you did, broski. I see you though, I know what kind of game you play.

>>2443713
i was able to go back two posts in this conversation and see pic related. This is simply not true. if every jew got ACKed tomorrow there would still not be world peace because it turns out humans do nasty shit whether or not they're jooz

>>2443667

first i get an anon trying to prove I'm "jewish" with loaded questions:
>>2443615

then I get an anon trying to prove I'm "antisemitic" with loaded questions:
>>2443666

I don't care about your burger-nazteca e-celeb. pic related is the essence of Fuentista ideology. nazis and zionazis both get the bullet. as do their burger imperialist sponsors and bribe takers.

>>2443461
modern antisemitism = someone from /pol/ called you a slur on twitter, you think the guy at the country club gave you a weird look when you applied because you've got a jewish name, *philosemites come up and tell you how much they love Israel on the assumption you're a zionist and will make them an honorary Jew.* *which is antisemitic, but nobody ever gets too worked up about it.*, someone broke your shop window in a high-crime area and you're sure it's because you were a jew, oh, and nick fuentes doesn't like you. can't forget that.
(a range of things from "mildly unpleasant" to "high-neuroticism", but basically nothing compared to what any other minority faces, and that's purposefully excluding vexatious shit like "saw a free palestine sticker" or "Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't give me a cabinet post because I'm pro-war-crimes")

1930s antisemitism = nuremberg laws, banned from working in german civil service, law, health, agriculture, stripping of citizenship, the paramilitary wing of the governing party actively smashed up your store, when you tried to seek refuge in a boat a string of countries told you to fuck off until you went back to germany to face the early stages of an industrialized death machine. (e.g. real and serious discrimination, sufficiently serious that people desperately want you to think that's what's happening today when they cry that Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite.)

>>2443647
okay, fine.

>>2443720
That was a hyperbole, let me set the record straight; a massive plethora of problems will be solved if Jews were removed from positions of power in the west, especially in the United States government. Emphasis on the adjective 'massive'.

>>2443744
This isn't true. the problem in the west isn't Jews, it's philosemites. In the UK Labour "antisemitism" scandal, for example, a huge chunk of the most nonsensical complaints (stuff like "party member mocking the president of the US [trump]") were made by "David Gordstein", a pseudonym of the very-much-not-Jewish Euan Phillips, who despite not being Jewish was the chair of "Labour Against Antisemitism".

A huge chunk of America's support for Israel comes not from Jewish people, but from deranged Christians who need Israel to control the holy land so that Jesus can get Armageddon going. You're not getting rid of that level of derangement just by getting rid of a group they're using instrumentally.

>>2439902
>Yet it's the only bigotry that mainstream politicians care about. Why? Not because of Jewish plots, but because it's a good smokescreen to attack the alternatives - whether that's the social democratic left, or the openly Nazi right. (Unfortunately for everyone, the general balance of forces - and the false equivalences - mean that power's probably going to go to the latter…)
That is a problem. It's true that the Israeli government uses the charge of antisemitism as a shield, but I think it can also be more helpful to think of antisemitism as not necessarily "wrong" (although I think it's incorrect) or a matter of "false consciousness," but that it's just inadequate. I believe it's usually bound up in frustration, impotence, a feeling of powerlessness. When I see people on the left who start getting into it, it's usually a sign to me that something is going awry, that something they're doing isn't working.

>>2440129
>so what do ya'll think of Moshe Postone?
>>2440138
>resonates with my own reading of capital, so i will read his work.
<What is said about modern antisemitism may also describe a trend of vulgar anti-capitalism that seeks the personification of the elements of capitalism that are so hated.
I'm somewhat familiar with Postone. I think he viewed himself as a 19th-century Orthodox Marxist of sorts. His view was (roughly, and I'm also paraphrasing some summaries and texts) that capitalism has a fundamentally different relationship to labor than other modes of production. For example, if you have peasant-based agricultural society, it's possible to imagine getting rid of the aristocrats and you can still have peasants owning their own plots of land and living off them. However, if you get rid of capitalists, you're not getting rid of capital, so social domination will still exist until the structures that constitute capital are gotten rid of. The proletariat isn't "outside" the system but part of it – and as it relates to his critique of Lukacs – a skepticism that you can have the proletariat doing proletarian labor and also living in a free society at the same time. He's wary of the idea that the proletariat is the revolutionary subject (in the Hegelian sense of constituting history and realizing itself in socialism). On the contrary, overcoming capitalism necessarily involves also overcoming proletarian labor as a material condition. The victory of the proletariat also involves the self-annihilation of the proletariat.

This is related to antisemitism being a kind of "socialism of fools" or Jews being the personification of capitalists. Remember, for Postone, the bourgeoisie does not take priority over the impersonal logic of capital. The capitalists are merely "character masks" for capital, and are subjects to its control just as much as workers are (despite enjoying a greater share of the wealth). There are also (historically contingent) reasons Jews have fulfilled a logically necessary function of capitalism (working as merchants and moneylenders), so what antisemitism has in common with a vulgar anti-capitalism is that it boils down to a critique of who makes up the management of the social structure, at best, basically the mode of management. As a side note: the logic here is similar to liberal identity politics. Like, the problem isn't so much an impersonal capitalist social order that operates much like an alien force or machine that has enslaved humanity, but a few bad apples or white men who are CEOs. It's easier to stick with this idea than it is to tear down the ideological fabric of everything that surrounds us. Antisemitism therefore is a potential danger for the left in Postone's view because it has an apparent emancipatory dimension to it. That's false, but people buy into it as an emancipatory "idea."

At any rate, I think Postone would've been really skeptical of this idea that anyone who listens to Nick Fuentes or Alex Jones (I guess he's a neocon now or something, whatever) is just an inch away from "getting it." Like seeing the Illuminati (or some other personification) behind everything is the first step on the road to some comprehensive critique of capitalism. He was also very critical of vulgar anti-Americanism, anti-imperialism that /USApol/ wars about on this website every day. Like "the world would be a wonderful place if it weren't for the United States." That functions as a fetish. He didn't think that would lead anywhere and compared it to reactionary German anti-capitalist rightists who saw the main problem in the world as being Britain and the Jews. He also didn't like Cold War campism, but he went easier on the New Left because he thought, well, they sharply criticize the U.S. because it's the U.S. and a great power, but also because it's hindering the emergence of a more progressive social order (or at least it seemed like that at the time). But he didn't regard anything resisting the U.S. to be a default positive. He thought that notion was extremely questionable. It can be reactionary pig and leftists will put progressive lipstick on it.

One more thing – a lot of that has to do with helplessness. I believe that pretty strongly about antisemitism. But Postone also believed that the view on the left that anything fighting the U.S. is good stems from an inability to come up with any clue about what a post-capitalist future might look like.

>>2443730

Well it seems like the sentiment hasn't changed - Nazis hate Jews today just as much as they did in the 1930s, the only difference is their ideas don't quite have the mainstream popularity that they did back then, for some mysterious reason.

I will always hate christians for creating zionism.

>>2443744
>implying Christoids aren’t up to the same shit
They walk hand-in-hand

>>2443744
as an empirical proof, make a list of those in power in the west and tick off who is jewish. im sure you will be surprised that its not as you think it is. here's a start:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_members_of_the_United_States_Congress
according to google, 6% of members are jewish. get rid of the 6% and congress is clean? but post results.
>>2443756
>the proletariat is not the revolutionary subject because proletarianship is constitutive of capital.
yes; this is why i have previously defined fascism as the political identity of proletarian labour, as opposed to its abolition (which capital as the geist, can at least aspire toward, whilst always falling back on wage labour ultimately - which is perhaps why liberalism appears both hypercapitalist and progressive, since it is capital trying to overcome its own condition, while 20th century totalitarian regimes depend upon the capitalist condition to forge an identity for themselves).
>capitalists are not capital as such
i agree, which is why objectifying capital in persons always becomes reactionary, like how luigi mangione represents a new brand of vigilante justice as opposed to systematic critique. even if you killed jeff bezos, he will be replaced. the right contains an immanent critique of capital which is particularist; "woke capital", "jewish capital", "finance capital", etc. but what if forwarded is just "white capital" or "national capital" in its place. when people praise china's state capitalism, its part of the same illusion (geopolitically, in this case).
>Like seeing the Illuminati (or some other personification) behind everything is the first step on the road to some comprehensive critique of capitalism.
its no coincidence that so many conspiracy theorists are libertarians
>Like "the world would be a wonderful place if it weren't for the United States." That functions as a fetish.
of course; which is why it leads to reactionary third-worldism. but notice how its always those most insulated by the country which criticise it most harshly (the archetypal middle class college student).

>>2443794
>i agree, which is why objectifying capital in persons always becomes reactionary
I've struggled with the concept of "reification" but Postone also uses this term. Like capital is "reified" into these forms. This is originally a Hegelian term and refers to a twisty relationship between subject and object. (Like how a subject can become an object, or an object can become a subject). In capitalism, this can be like money taking on such importance that it begins to be treated like it has its own subjectivity. Money talks! It's a specific type of alienation / splitting off and is commonly understood to mean a kind of mechanization of human life. There's also a back and forth over a Lukacs essay about reification. I lifted a phrase from Postone earlier.

<PN: Is it possible to struggle to overcome capitalism other than through necessary forms of misrecognition that this organization of social life generates? In other words: If consciousness in capitalist modernity is rooted in phenomenal forms that are the necessary expressions of a deep structure which they simultaneously mask, then how can mass-based Left-wing anti-capitalist politics be founded on anything other than progressive forms of misrecognition, i.e., as opposed to reactionary forms of misrecognition, ranging from populist critiques of finance capital, to chauvinist critiques of globalization, to localist or isolationist critiques of centralized political and economic power?

<MP: That’s a good question. I don’t have an easy answer, so maybe I’ll start by being very modest. It seems to me that the first question isn’t, “what is correct consciousness?”, but, rather, “what is not adequate?” That in itself would help any anti-capitalist movement immeasurably. To the degree to which movements are blind to the larger context of which they are a part, they necessarily are going to generate consequences that are undesirable for them as well.
https://www.pamnogales.com/writing/marx-after-marxism-an-interview-with-moishenbsppostone

>>2443845
marx explicitly writes that the capitalist is the personification of capital here:
>We saw also that capital — and the capitalist is merely capital personified and functions in the process of production solely as the agent of capital [.] Just as products confront the producer as an independent force in capital and capitalists — who actually are but the personification of capital — so land becomes personified in the landlord and likewise gets on its hind legs to demand, as an independent force, its share of the product created with its help.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch48.htm
yet it is a conflicting report. capital is the real subject and we are its objects (introduction to grundrisse, fragment on machines and section of capital vol. 1, chapter 1, concerning the fetishism of commodities), yet the capitalist is also capital's agent, to marx. i prefer postone's view that the subjectivity of labour itself must become capital's own abstraction, not merely the capitalist who censors production in the guise of accumulation - accumulation represents a contradiction in the circulation of surplus value, so the capitalist may even work against the system by their own personality, while the workers themselves are who keep the machine moving by being captured within their self-reproduction. so if anyone can be externally representative of capital, it has to be workers themselves (which is also perhaps why all revolutionary thought has stemmed from the petty bourgeois and bourgeois classes, rather than from the proletariat). i would say that correct consciousness can thus only begin where one's identity can transcend labour, since this gives birth to the spectre of value (rather than as marx imagines, it is exchange which produces the value relation; for example, as J.B. Say (1802) and pierre leroux (1834) write, the "logic" of production (which marx signifies by a syllogism, in the introduction to the grundrisse - 1858), is production, distribution and exchange. marx's communism (as described in critique of the gotha program - 1875) maintains the capitalist form of production, but simply transforms distribution, while eliminating exchange. he even comments that this form inevitably represents the capitalist mode of production (with the state simply taking the place of "administration"). jean baudrillard also criticises marx in this respect in his "mirror of value" (1973) and suggests an alternative frame in "symbolic exchange and death" (1976), where instead of abolishing exchange, we should effectively abolish regulatory production and give emphasis to "symbolic" or gift exchange (which cannot reproduce the logic of value since there is reciprocity, but no equality or accumulation; qualitative, not quantitative). the weariness of exchange to marxists shows a lack of imagination, i feel. they are paranoiacs, seeking to abolish the invisible spectre of "value" between persons, while hypocritically maintaining its format in wage labour; the very source of capital.

>>2443776
sentiment without power is shrugworthy. since the people who hate jews have no power, there's no reason to put antisemitism up with the other bigotries which still have powerful people on-side.

>>2439870
>because they believe themselves to be superior
They wrote the bible on how to be a patriotic settler imperialist who enslaves racial subordinates, that's why spiritual parasites like JD Vance are still quoting them:
https://readsettlers.org/
>>2440138
>as far as capital cannot be directly annunciated, it fails to be abridged into a critical analysis, since it evades what is truly signified
thing-noticing NPCs: "durrr look at this contradiction caused by class society, it must be those bourgeois Jews who are doing this"

>>2443569
>even though it didn't downplay zionist atrocities, just regarded them as historically similar to the half-forgotten genocides of the late victorian age
No, it does downplay recent innovations of imperialist genocide.Everyone knows what Zionists do with their AI generated drone holocaust praxis ("Daddy's Home" etc). Smug gamerchair socialists like you would have a scoffed at people drawing attention to IBM's work in innovating computerized German holocaust: "these punchcards using bureaucratic census data is irrelevant to me, you need to be soyfacing at the treaty of Westphalia like my Contrapoints friends". Trying to claim all of history is the same is fake Marxism that only shows how you are a pseud with your head up your ass

>>2440017
>"it was a national conflict, not an ideological war as you flimsily imagine"
>>2440164
>"if there was ideological conviction"
idealist liberals use the word "ideology" as referring to abstract ideas that randomly float in peoples heads for no discernable reason, VS the Marxist definition of "ideology" as the historical materialist superstructure floating above the economic mode of production that leads people to behave in a certain way to align with the ruling class who controls their State

When working class people try to stop their genocide by white settlers (btw Russia is still being targeted for depopulation and lowered life expectancy by Jeffrey Epstein's friends at Harvard: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russia/). that's somehow NOT ideological. Ideology has nothing to do with survival, it has to do with if you watch Contrapoints videos or not

>>2443744
>problems would be solved if da jooz were removed from positions of power
problems would be solved if people in positions of power were removed, regardless of their background. If they're in a position of power I don't care what happens to them, let alone what dumb abrahamic religion they follow.

>>2439562
the alternative is believing the black janitor was playing 4d chess the whole time
>yes bossman i'll write this note incriminating myself
>me dumb negro, me kill and rape women, me guilty : (
>lmao dumb jew the KKK isn't gonna believe this shit

>>2443788
zionism was created in the 1800s by theodor herzl and other secular jews

When you really think about it, this whole fiasco doesn't really benefit the Jews very much - they have to live in a country that is perpetually at war and ruled by far-right warhawk politicians who are bankrupting the economy and sliding further towards authoritarianism by the day, all so that their country can be used as a pawn by the United States for its own geopolitical agenda. If this is the conspiracy that the secret international Jewish cabal have cooked up, it's not a very good one.

>>2443794
>according to google, 6% of members are jewish. get rid of the 6% and congress is clean
You have a really simple view of the world, and probably read no literature if you think power in capital is only through legislative positions.

>>2443751
>This isn't true. the problem in the west isn't Jews, it's philosemites
Yeah, the problem isn't in the west, it's in the middle east you stooge.
>In the UK Labour "antisemitism" scandal, for example, a huge chunk of the most nonsensical complaints (stuff like "party member mocking the president of the US [trump]") were made by "David Gordstein", a pseudonym of the very-much-not-Jewish Euan Phillips, who despite not being Jewish was the chair of "Labour Against Antisemitism".
And why do you think so many western politicians worship Jews? Do you think there's no manipulation of any form at play here?

>A huge chunk of America's support for Israel comes not from Jewish people, but from deranged Christians who need Israel to control the holy land so that Jesus can get Armageddon going
Those people are powerless. The parasitizing Israel does on America is from its chokehold on American politicians. Most politicians don't actually think or believe in any of that nonsense, religion and culture are just tools to milk cattle of votes.

In grassroots US even the staunchest, most brainwashed Judeo-Christian worshippers of Israel are wavering these days. And I'm only talking about what's left of a small hardcore minority of boomers, because the right wing block got completely splintered on the matter of Israel a long time ago, and it's being dragged by the congress and Drumpf.

>>2444550
why are you talking to me about your dumb religion?
>>2444948
so jews dont control the world by governments? then what is the platform.of power? banks? media?
again, make a list and publish it for us so that you can prove your hypothesis.

>>2444955
if the western politicians dont actually believe in israel; then why do they support it?

>>2445107

Israel, a moderately-authoritarian self-proclaimed Jewish state, aligns more closely with our traditional American values than other countries in the Middle East which are even more authoritarian self-proclaimed Muslim states. But I don't think ideology is as much of a factor in this as people presume it to be; after all, the United States has a friendly relationship with Saudi Arabia, an authoritarian Muslim state, because it happens to be sitting on trillions of dollars worth of oil reserves. It's just about money. US taxpayers pay for foreign aid to Israel and also pay for the development and manufacture of America's fancy state-of-the-art military equipment, US defense contractors sell lots of equipment and makes billions of dollars, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer (or get blown up).

>>2444955
>And why do you think so many western politicians worship Jews? Do you think there's no manipulation of any form at play here?
I think the biggest reason at this point is probably the arms industry, and the amount of money spent by the industry on lobbying politicians in D.C. absolutely dwarfs that of AIPAC. The murder industries as Norman Finkelstein called it. The U.S. and Israeli MICs are also closely knitted together. The U.S. murder industries have offices there and the Israeli ones have offices here, and different weapons are hybrid U.S.-Israeli weapons with technology produced in both countries and by U.S.-Israeli teams. People keep trying to get away from the logic of military-industrial PRODUCTION but that's probably what's really driving this whole thing.

>>2439562
He was never exonerated. He was guilty and remains guilty. Rest In Piss.

>>2445757

I think a lot of people, especially conspiratards, have a naive understanding of human nature and seem to often make the assumption that people in positions of power have strong convictions and deeply held beliefs like they do, but the truth is these people are quite often just nihilists who don't believe in anything at all and just live to pursue their superficial material desires. Just look at Netanyahu - he's supposedly this champion of traditional Jewish family values but in reality he's just a womanizing sleazebag on his third marriage because he can't stop banging his secretaries.

>>2445765
wow can't wait to blind yankee soldiers with a laser pen or water hose. very cool.

>>2445909
For the MIC, one thing to keep in mind too is that the money for Israel is really a subsidy to American arms manufacturers because the Israelis buy American weapons with the money the U.S. government sends them. It's one of the strings attached to it (or maybe the only string but it's a thing).

But nobody thinks twice about Trump meeting the CEO of Raytheon which makes the Iron Dome with Rafael (Israeli company). Nobody knows who that is. It doesn't really matter who it is though. The issue is not so much the "character masks" of capital but the logic of production.

At any rate, there's just an enormous amount of money in weapons and other military tech. There are factories and engineering firms spread out across congressional districts all over the United States. And they have their own industrial associations. A lot of that pro-military propaganda in American society is proudly brought to you buy [our list of sponsors]. It's also politically a winner because there are jobs involved and if you don't like it you're a pinko.

And a lot of weapons, fighter planes, artillery like HIMARS etc. are engineered and manufactured by multiple companies that make different parts of the machine. So the Israelis will make some of the internal components on a larger thing.

>>2445942

Another thing - it's not like Israel is the only instance of the United States selling arms to a foreign dictatorship and Israel is not even our biggest customer; the US has sold a hell of a lot more weapons to Saudi Arabia than to Israel, but does anyone believe there is a secret cabal of Saudi Muslims pulling strings in the US government?

>>2445673
>its about money bc of saudi arabia
<taxpayers give millions to israel
so what are israel giving the US in return?

>>2439951
I'm not defending Zionism but this criterion seems dubious to me. Not many people are killed because of Sinophobia either, does that mean racism against Chinese people is a-ok?

>>2446134
unprecedented access to the middle east, unprecedented control over economies in the region, and forced cooperation with the locals, it's a successful relationship if you ask me

>>2446155
for something to be relevant, it actually has to have an impact on the real world, sinophobia is a problem, yes, but it's not a problem in the west yet, it's a problem in south east asia

>>2446179
if someone believes 1+1=3 it does no harm but its still incorrect and should be challenged, no?

>>2446184
do you challenge say anti-english sentiment in the US? or some other irrelevant idea? because we ought to care about things that actually matter, not just things that are hypothetically bad

>>2446196
i am saying that anti-semitism is wrong in-itself
you are saying its only wrong as a means to an end
thats the difference, but lets give an example.
lets say that theres a new hitler guy and he will bring utopia to the world, but he just needs to kill all the jews (so 8 billion people benefit from 30 million dead) - would you say that its rational to take this offer?

>>2446134
<taxpayers give millions to israel
>so what are israel giving the US in return?
Israeli wars help sustain production lines.

>>2446198
Which definition of antisemitism is wrong? Jews have multiple definitions depending on who they're scamming with that BS.

>>2446217
so you refuse to engage in the hypothetical?
typical coward.

>>2446217
>antisemitism doesnt matter
>well, antisemitism doesnt even exist
surely you arent the same person who said that jews control the world but couldnt actually explain how?

>>2446134
>so what are israel giving the US in return?
Lockheed Martin