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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


 

This post has audio if you're too lazy to read it

This was originally going to be a reply ITT >>2439192 but I decided to make it its own post

<it doesn't deserve to be that!


yeah well we have 20 dead /usapol/ threads in the catolog so who cares

If making above subsistence wage makes you "a petty bourgeois treatlerite" because it allows you to "accumulate savings after monthly expenses" which are "reserves that can be potentially converted into capital" then by that same logic any couple who has fewer than 2 children or any single person who has fewer than 1 child is "petty bourgeois" because the subsistence wage is the wage required, according to Marx, not just to keep yourself alive, but also your children, since capitalism requires the labor force to reproduce itself.

If a nation's population fails to reproduce itself Capital has to seek out labor from other nations by outsourcing or using immigrant labor. Something we see in the imperial core. If you're single and aren't bearing the expense of raising at least 1 adopted child, or if you're a couple, and you aren't bearing the expense of raising at least 2 children, then you aren't reproducing the labor force for capital, which means that even with a subsistence wage (which by definition, according to Marx himself, includes the cost of raising children to adulthood), you will have left over savings that can go towards "treats" (luxury commodities that aren't essential for survival like vidya games) or be used as money capital (i.e. invested as self-expanding value in an interest yielding savings account or 401k or some other petty bourgeois asset).

By this logic, many of the most puritanical Marxists on here (like Iron Felix) who rail against "treatlerites" and such are usually single men without children (the usual imageboard demographic) who, even if we believe them, and they are "immiserated wage workers earning a subsistence wage and unable to accumulate savings" they aren't actually reproducing themselves, which is one of the things Marx originally stated about the working class. This is because Marx himself had 7 children, half of whom died before adulthood, and he was writing during a time when contraception and birth control and sex education were basically nonexistent. This is why Marx railed against the Malthusian doctrine and basically stated that it was impossible for the working class to practice abstinence collectively. I think one of the most important things that has changed since Marx's time is the availability of sex education, contraception, birth control, and a more skeptical attitude towards marriage and starting a family, as well as the rise of anti-reproductive ideologies like antinatalism. It is harder for capital in the imperial core countries to get the desired oversupply of labor power, which is why the resort to outsourcing and immigration. Only a handful of "developing" countries still have fertility rates higher than 4 children per woman, and most of the imperial core countries have trouble getting each woman to have 2 children. So the labor force is not reproducing itself.

Birth strike under capitalism does increase wages actually by lowering the supply of labor and thereby increasing its demand. The inverse is also the case, which is what Marx was trying to point out with the idea of the reserve army of labor, or as Eugene Debs once called it, the reserve army of scabs. The same is true in pre-capitalism. In feudalism for example the only people who were wage workers were artisans in the towns, in the guilds. But when the black plague happened in the 1300s a lot of them died and their wages effectively doubled. This enraged King Edward III in England, at the time, so much, that he tried to freeze wages, but it as basically unenforceable. That was the result of a pandemic instead of a birth strike but we see similar patterns whenever the working population does not reproduce itself: The bourgeoisie has to pay more wages.

So maybe instead of being puritanical about who's "really proletarian" based on the ability to accumulate savings or not (without even considering whether it's set aside for emergency or used as money capital or both), we should look at how vastly different the imperial core is as an environment itself than during Marx's time. The proletariat is able to do things like accumulate savings even when making a subsistence wage by staying single and refusing to reproduce. Now if you want to redefine "subsistence" away from Marx's definition to not include reproduction, fine, but keep in mind that workers failing to reproduce themselves is not sustainable for Capital as a multi-generational system based on self expanding value and high profit rates, which is why Marx was focused on it as a system that needs to survive for more than 1 generation of working class life, which is why he included the cost of reproduction in subsistence.

This is not even getting into the question of whether a given working class person takes care of their dying elders (like me) or cuts off communication from them (like my parents did).

I am a parent btw with both children and old people dependents

>>2439868
> then by that same logic any couple who has fewer than 2 children or any single person who has fewer than 1 child is "petty bourgeois"
Cockshott unironically argues this btw

File: 1755674904444.mp3 (2.83 MB, reply1.mp3)

>>2439877
My conclusion is different. My conclusion is that we should rejoice that in the imperial core, capital is becoming so desperate that it is trying to role back reproductive rights for women to the 1800s in order to force them to push out more workers. Because it means the working class in the imperial core has massive leverage over the ruling class in the form of withholding reproduction, something I myself have already failed to do since I have a family. But a lot of people on here are younger than me so I say to them: Don't have kids. But also don't be a chud when you see that results in more immigrants coming from the countries where people still have like 6 kids. Because that is just capital becoming desperate in its dying stages. As soon as capital can no longer guarantee the reproduction of the labor force it loses control over the growth of capital, because each worker not only supplies the economy with the commodity labor power, but also consumes many of the commodities in that economy (food and shelter for instance) and produces the next generation of the labor force. If the labor force shrinks, so does the number of consumers, which means capital will not be able to sell its commodities due to lack of demand. This is a huge crisis for capital which is predicated on endless growth of not just profit rates, but of the working/consuming population… We have MASSIVE leverage over porky that is unrecognized. Caleb Maupin is a punchline on here but I think the idea of "birth strike under capitalism" has a point and is way more doable in a modern society with birth control, sex education, and so on. We see women's movements in places like South Korea for example that reject relationships with men. These are idpol movements but the overlap with class is obvious because women reproduce the labor force by giving birth.

File: 1755690609992.png (644.56 KB, 779x643, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2439877
so now we have wittled down the TRVE proletariat to

Reserveless
Immiserated
Surplus Value Producing
Propertyless
Subsistence Wage Earning
Workers
With 2 or more children

I sure love gatekeeping the revolutionary coalition so it's as small as possible

The lack of future global labor is Capitalisms most dangerous contradiction

Therefore the most revolutionary class today is the only sector of the economy left with leverage - the healthcare and social services sector

I'm not having sex because I'm a real revolutionary. Yeah I'm sure that's the reason.

>>2439868
yes, good post. to this i add, we should argue for complete socialization of reproductive labor. no more private restaurants, no more private schools, no more private hospitals, no more private laundromats, private elderly homes. no more of this free choice bullshit. build canteens, expand schools, more water fountains, more mobility. rent freeze to 3% of earnings. expropriate the expropriator. abolish kitchen serfdom. abolish gender. private life be forcefully socialized.

>>2440071
It doesn't really matter whether you have sex or not, but whether that sex results in more WORKERS, hence porky trying to roll back the 2nd wave feminist reforms of reproductive rights, sex education, birth control.

>>2440032
>so now we have wittled down the TRVE proletariat to
>With 2 or more children
<Comrade, you don't get it - eliminating abortion rights is proletarianizing women!

File: 1755708580496.png (481.33 KB, 611x808, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2440175
>eliminating abortion rights is proletarianizing women!

True revolutionary activity is driving down birth rates to force industrialization

>>2440032
We can talk about which sectors of society are the most revolutionary but we shouldn't fall into Trotskyism and assume that all other sectors of the population (such as the peasantry) are automatic class enemies.
Enemy number one is the bourgeoisie (those who live off the labor of others through their ownership of private property), not all these other groups. These other antagonisms are important but they are not fundamental antagonisms the same way that worker/capitalist is a fundamental antagonism.

>>2440192
>>2440081
We need to do social democratic reforms in order to lower the rate of profit as a whole and bring about the inevitable fascism. FDR was an unfortunate historical necessity in order to bring about the current revolutionary era in the imperial core.

File: 1755714047434.jpg (515.39 KB, 900x510, hamas qatar.jpg)

>>2440032
And don't forget, these are the poor global south that is in hunger and getting bombed always that is gonna bring down the treatlerite empire!

>>2440285
How are gulf monarchs "hamas". Please don't derail this thread IDF shill

>>2440285
Kys zionist cockroach

>>2440289
>>2440294
MLoids’ worship for brown fascism is quite literally limitless
>Fym arabs should read Marx white boi they got Muhammad honky ass fucks inshallah

>>2440311
>made up shit nobody said award
>reactionary schizo rambling award
>derailing a thread with unrelated shit award

The title of the thread is Reproduction of the labor force and "petty bourgeois" accumulation of savings. Did you even read/listen to the OP text? It is 3 minutes long. Not a titanic endeavor.

>>2439192
>>2440297
>>2439868
Overlapping subject matters

>any couple who has fewer than 2 children or any single person who has fewer than 1 child is "petty bourgeois" because the subsistence wage is the wage required, according to Marx, not just to keep yourself alive, but also your children, since capitalism requires the labor force to reproduce itself.
What if you get paid below the rate that would allow you to raise a child?
>If you're single and aren't bearing the expense of raising at least 1 adopted child, or if you're a couple, and you aren't bearing the expense of raising at least 2 children, then you aren't reproducing the labor force for capital, which means that even with a subsistence wage (which by definition, according to Marx himself, includes the cost of raising children to adulthood), you will have left over savings that can go towards "treats" (luxury commodities that aren't essential for survival like vidya games)
LOL by definition we make it so, are you insane? Assuming reproduction-level wages is an analytical simplification. Capitalism does not have a tendency towards lowering wages to reproduction cost. It just pushes wages down WITH NO LIMIT unless there is coordinated effort against that (it can even be an effort by the capitalists, the point is this is coordinated through institutions and not the market). The reason muh market does not autobalance is precisely that people don't drop dead if they don't get paid for a day because they have savings or rely on friends and family or they don't have offspring.

>they aren't actually reproducing themselves, which is one of the things Marx originally stated about the working class. This is because Marx himself had 7 children, half of whom died before adulthood

Marx stated the working class has children because 3.5 of his children died? What?

>>2440825
>What if you get paid below the rate that would allow you to raise a child?
Then the labor force can't replace itself and capitalism has a crisis of labor shortage, which means it either has to import workers from somewhere else (usually an "underdeveloped" place with a high fertility rate, i.e. a highly patriarchal society with no sex education, birth control, contraception, or female emancipation, since otherwise you by importing people from that place you would eventually give them a crisis of reproduction as well)
>Capitalism does not have a tendency towards lowering wages to reproduction cost. It just pushes wages down WITH NO LIMIT unless there is coordinated effort against that (it can even be an effort by the capitalists, the point is this is coordinated through institutions and not the market)
Ok but
Capitalism includes both bourgeois governance and markets. There is no assertion in the OP that market forces alone achieve this effect. Obviously political struggle under capitalism (even if reformist in nature) is still involved.
>The reason muh market does not autobalance is precisely that people don't drop dead if they don't get paid for a day because they have savings or rely on friends and family or they don't have offspring.
The word "market" was used nowhere in OP so I don't know why you keep saying "muh market" when "muh" i usually someone adds in mockery of someone else's words.
>Marx stated the working class has children because 3.5 of his children died? What?
How is that what you took away from what the OP. You literally cut a sentence in half. I don't even know how to correct this interpretation because I am unable to reconstruct how you arrived at it. Just read the thing again.

>>2439868
What you are missing is that there are countries where the labor force has declined by half or more, mainly in eastern europe. Capital does not care. Consumption scales down roughly proportionately to population decline, so keeping production at the same scale is unprofitable anyway.
>but capital wants to increase profits!
Yes, but that class is made up of individual capitalists that have a much easier time doing business as usual in a declining market. Saving the environment is also technically in capital's best interest, no one cares in practice.
I think that this scare about population decline is simply the flipside of the usual scaremongering about migrants. Many countries have been living like that for decades, the rest of the world will follow.

Those birth strikes are pointless and have never been a thing. What's the point of Westoids becoming 100% childfree when the rich can easily replace them with Fourth Worlders who have 6-7 kids per woman and the borders aren't closed? Shouldn't you advocate for everyone being a childless antinatalist incel AND for migration to be shut down completely (so "Children of Men") or for Fourth Worlders to be childless antinatalist incels? Unless either scenario happens, then all the childless Westies will be replaced by workers from elsewhere (and they're supposed to cheer on it, which is kinda what happens in Western leftie spaces anyway).

>>2440938
>What you are missing is that there are countries where the labor force has declined by half or more, mainly in eastern europe
They're just emptying out the periphery on behalf of some metropole

>>2441034
>Those birth strikes are pointless and have never been a thing. What's the point of Westoids becoming 100% childfree when the rich can easily replace them with Fourth Worlders who have 6-7 kids per woman and the borders aren't closed?
Literally the OP goes into the meta of this. This kind of strategy can only last so long. Neoliberalism works until you run out of other countries' people.

>>2441034
>Shouldn't you advocate for everyone being a childless antinatalist incel AND for migration to be shut down completely (so "Children of Men") or for Fourth Worlders to be childless antinatalist incels?
You don't have to be a "childless antinatalist incel" it's just that eventually those countries where everyone has 6-7 kids per women get on the birth control/contraception/sex education train (not even abortion necessarily but sometimes that as well) and the birth rates drop down to the 2-3 you see in the developed world. But we already see the periphery protecting itself from brain drain by enecting emigration restrictions.

>Only a handful of "developing" countries still have fertility rates higher than 4 children per woman
There's still dozens of them, so nah, the rich can still find literal hordes of potential slaves in the Third World.
>We see women's movements in places like South Korea for example that reject relationships with men.
They hate gay men too and trans people, so they're very unlikely to take off anywhere else, definitely not in Western countries.
>>2441150
>This kind of strategy can only last so long. Neoliberalism works until you run out of other countries' people.
Even if all the Third Worlders go sterile or decide to be childfree tomorrow, there's still so many of them Westoids can be supplied for centuries.
>>2441153
>it's just that eventually those countries where everyone has 6-7 kids per women get on the birth control/contraception/sex education train (not even abortion necessarily but sometimes that as well) and the birth rates drop down to the 2-3 you see in the developed world.
In most of these countries people still have 6-7 kids per woman, even if there's birth control and Sex Ed. Look at Africa and a good chunk of Asia.

>>2441209
You ever notice how the countries with the highest birthrates are where the Chinese are developing the most? its like they're choking the flow of immigration that sustains western capitalism

>>2441209
Why would alleged feminists hate gay men? Is the idea that they’re so patriarchal that they don’t see women as human enough to even serve as a sexual object?

>>2441213
Those are also the countries where the Chinese basically do loan forgiveness. They'll give them huge developmental loans with 0% interest, then cancel those loans. It's basically to bail them out of the IMF loans they already took from the USA, but with extra steps.

File: 1755795302973.png (365.73 KB, 1000x604, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2441209
>Even if all the Third Worlders go sterile or decide to be childfree tomorrow, there's still so many of them Westoids can be supplied for centuries.
>for centuries
you're massively overstating your case. people don't live "for centuries." Either a given population of people reproduces itself each generation or it doesn't. If it doesn't you have, at first, an "older" population, then, as those older people die off, you have a lower population. Again the point isn't "sterility" it's a fertility of 1-3 vs. a fertility of 4-6. and no, porky will not be supplied with a high birth rate from the periphery for much longer. Pretty much only a handful of nations in Africa, and to a lesser extent, Asia and Polynesia, have consistently high fertility rates still.

>>2441213
Yes, but it doesn't mean all the potential migrants from say Uganda will only go to PRC from now on, Chinese can "bite off" a chunk of Ugandan migrants, but they won't 100% go to China instead of Western Porkocracies.
>>2441214
South Korean feminists (the radfem ones) are built different, you know - they do believe in Total Moid Death, which includes the gay men.
>>2441265
My uygha… something like half of the world still pops out kids, loads of them even. Most of Africa and Polynesia are high fertility areas, it's even on the map. You make it sound like literally everyone has 2 kids per family max, except for the Pygmies of Congo, Tajikistanis and Somalians.

>>2441629
if you think the map is wrong, post the source.
>You make it sound like literally everyone has 2 kids per family max, except for the Pygmies of Congo, Tajikistanis and Somalians.
Not even close to what I said. This is like the third time you (or some other anon(s) maybe?) have done this kind of weird hyperbolic mischaracterization:

>Even if all the Third Worlders go sterile or decide to be childfree tomorrow

>Shouldn't you advocate for everyone being a childless antinatalist incel AND for migration to be shut down completely (so "Children of Men") or for Fourth Worlders to be childless antinatalist incels?

like i don't get how you (or some other anon(s) maybe?) are extrapolating all this extra shit

>>2441629
>it doesn't mean all the potential migrants from say Uganda will only go to PRC
you're right, but immigration coming from Uganda would stop completely, since they now face the same labor shortage issues the west has. This is the catalyst for a transformation away from capitalism and to a societal mode of production that can allows people to have kids again, and the first country that invests this system will dominate the world

>>2439868
>they are "immiserated wage workers earning a subsistence wage and unable to accumulate savings" they aren't actually reproducing themselves, which is one of the things Marx originally stated about the working class.

They are, though. "Reproduction of labor" relates to sleep and relaxation and restoration of a person's health, resting, etc being able to work again after a hard day. It's not related to children, lol


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